Beowulf V. Odysseus.

[Doomboy911]

My friends and I were talking this out and to my surprise everyone believes Beowulf would whoop Odysseus. I had to bring this to the forums who do you think would really win.

[ArlEammon]

Beowulf would if they ever got in melee. Odysseus, on the other hand, is an archer.

[Doomboy911]

Yeah but Odysseus is smart he could easily lead the battle as he wants Beowulf is brash. He did take off his armor just to make the fight more epic.

[Dienekes]

Beowolf can fight underwater for days, swim across oceans, out wrestle a giant, and can kill a dragon in his old age.

In physical competitions he's in a whole other league compared to Odysseus. But Odysseus is incredibly devious, ruthless, and has shown himself willing to do the morally repugnant to win, while also being rather fit himself.

Overall though I do have to give it to Beowolf. It's Superman verse Batman if Batman didn't have any of his technology on him.

[Doomboy911]

Beowolf can fight underwater for days, swim across oceans, out wrestle a giant, and can kill a dragon in his old age.
.

Yeah but the part about fighting underwater was a lie told by Beowulf the giant he wrestled was a freak outside of it's territory and the dragon he killed he had 12 men backing him up.

[eyeofsaulot]

Yeah but the part about fighting underwater was a lie told by Beowulf the giant he wrestled was a freak outside of it's territory and the dragon he killed he had 12 men backing him up.

His men (except for good ol' Wiglaf) ditched him in the dragon fight.

[Dienekes]

Yeah but the part about fighting underwater was a lie told by Beowulf the giant he wrestled was a freak outside of it's territory and the dragon he killed he had 12 men backing him up.

While the race fight have been a lie (don't remember honestly) the fight with Grendel's Mom was also entirely underwater and he lasted for hours. Beowulf is near magical in his feats of combat.

[Spacewolf]

Herc would be a better match for Beowulf in a fight, Odysseus isnt really that much of a fighter after all

[Ravens_cry]

I'd give this to Beowulf. Odysseus is indeed clever, but he is also proud, and known for making rash boasts. For example, he would have gotten home a lot sooner, and some of his men had survived, if he hadn't boasted to a blinded Cyclops who he really was, that his name was not Nobody.
Said Cyclops's father was Poseidon, and Odysseus was travelling by sea.
I bet you know how this ends.

[Doomboy911]

Odysseus is a wicked fighter he took down about twenty men with the help of his son. Also of course Alcaeus would beat beowulf he's the son of two gods. But if we're going by heroes of legend Gilgamesh would mop the floor with everyone. I simply put it up to Odysseus and Beowulf because they're very different. Finally Odysseus bragged to the cyclops but he had no way of knowing he was related to Poseidon. I mean it's some cyclopean sheep herder what are the odds and Beowulf bragged even more than Odysseus so much so that he was willing to take on a monster that killed scores of men without armor just to prove that he could.

[shadow_archmagi]

Odysseus is a wicked fighter he took down about twenty men with the help of his son.

Twenty unarmed nobles isn't really an achievement, since he'd spent the last decade adventuring while they had spent the last decade eating his pigs.

[Mauve Shirt]

I want to give this to Odysseus because I like him more, but Beowulf is stronger than Odysseus.

[Othesemo]

Yeah. I much prefer Odysseus, but I'd have to give this one to Beowulf, shame though it is. Assuming, of course, that the stage for combat doesn't involve Odysseus sitting on top of a cliff, hidden, with his bow.

[Doomboy911]

I don't know if I'd say Beowulf is stronger I mean Odysseus was able to hang from a branch by his arms for three days. Also think back to the fight between Beowulf and Grendel's mother, he could've fought to the death and slay her but he took the easy way out and sided with her. He did this because no one would know his secret that he was afraid of this big bad beast.

[Rinvak]

For as much as I'd like to see Beowulf win, my money would be on Odysseus. Even if he can't physically match Beowulf, he doesn't need to, he just needs to outsmart him. What that would look like exactly I can't really say for sure, but I can tell how it would end. Beowulf beaten, and Odysseus not knowing when to leave well enough alone, would probably proceed to enrage some Divine Being because Pride is his thing and be stuck being harassed by said being, again.

[Dienekes]

I don't know if I'd say Beowulf is stronger I mean Odysseus was able to hang from a branch by his arms for three days. Also think back to the fight between Beowulf and Grendel's mother, he could've fought to the death and slay her but he took the easy way out and sided with her. He did this because no one would know his secret that he was afraid of this big bad beast.

What are you talking about? Beowulf did slay Grendel's mom.

Are you going by the crappy 2007 movie? Cause that's the only one I can think of where Beowulf didn't kill Grendel's mom.

Also, hung from a branch for three days is good, swimming across the ocean in armor is better (also again, can't seem to find anything indicating the fight underwater was a lie, except again, maybe that crappy 2007 movie)

[Dr.Epic]

One killed a monster with no armor or weapons and was only killed as an old man by a dragon, arguably the coolest and deadliest monster in fantasy. The other was too dumb to ask for directions for ten years. My money's on the Bee Hunter.

Now if you want to debate one's CGI film verses the other's mini-series, that's another story.

[Doomboy911]

One killed a monster with no armor or weapons and was only killed as an old man by a dragon, arguably the coolest and deadliest monster in fantasy. The other was too dumb to ask for directions for ten years. My money's on the Bee Hunter.

Now if you want to debate one's CGI film verses the other's mini-series, that's another story.


Well he killed the monster with some help (yes most of them got slaughtered but he did get help. Also Odysseus was not too dumb to get directions he had the gods going against him hindering him at every step. Also think of their reasons (which is just bonus points and has little to do with the actual fight) Beowulf is doing this killing for gold and fame Odysseus is traveling through Tartarus dealing with sorcerors and giants alike for what. To simply go home and see his wife, his kid and his dog and tell them he fought the good fight.)

[McStabbington]

I'll give the edge to Odysseus here. Most people who haven't read The Iliad interpret it through the lens of modern narrative conventions: The Iliad is the story of champion (Achilles) vs. champion (Hector), and Odysseus is naturally the smart guy in Achean League of Heroes.

That's not actually what was happening in the Iliad at all. The thing that kept the Trojans in the war was not Hector. It was the fact that they were all unified under Priam and had a big damn wall. By contrast, the Acheans were hamstrung by the fact that Agammemnon was such a complete tool that the Acheans preferred that Agammemnon lose before Troy did.

But man for man? The Acheans had the biggest assemblage of literary awesomeness until the Justice League. When Odysseus went up against Hector, he beat seven different kinds of crap out of him. The only reason Odysseus isn't more celebrated in the annals of awesome-dom is because he was teammates with Achilles (the best warrior in all of Greece before he got his invulnerability upgrade in later works), Diomedes (the guy who beat down two gods, one of whom was Ares, on the same day as he put Aeneas out of commission by hitting him with a boulder), and Ajax, reputedly stronger than either Achilles or Diomed. So Odysseus vs. Beowulf isn't Batman vs. Superman. It's more like Superman vs. Loki.

[Mando Knight]

Herc would be a better match for Beowulf in a fight, Odysseus isnt really that much of a fighter after all

He's a lover, not a fighter... but he's also a fighter, so don't get any ideas.

He is... The most interesting man in the Aegean.

[dehro]

Odysseus is quite the fighter. Beowulf is "the fighter" in his own epos.
Odysseus on the other hand has several greek gods on his side looking over his shoulder and assisting him when in dire need.

[Dienekes]

I'll give the edge to Odysseus here. Most people who haven't read The Iliad interpret it through the lens of modern narrative conventions: The Iliad is the story of champion (Achilles) vs. champion (Hector), and Odysseus is naturally the smart guy in Achean League of Heroes.

That's not actually what was happening in the Iliad at all. The thing that kept the Trojans in the war was not Hector. It was the fact that they were all unified under Priam and had a big damn wall. By contrast, the Acheans were hamstrung by the fact that Agammemnon was such a complete tool that the Acheans preferred that Agammemnon lose before Troy did.

But man for man? The Acheans had the biggest assemblage of literary awesomeness until the Justice League. When Odysseus went up against Hector, he beat seven different kinds of crap out of him. The only reason Odysseus isn't more celebrated in the annals of awesome-dom is because he was teammates with Achilles (the best warrior in all of Greece before he got his invulnerability upgrade in later works), Diomedes (the guy who beat down two gods, one of whom was Ares, on the same day as he put Aeneas out of commission by hitting him with a boulder), and Ajax, reputedly stronger than either Achilles or Diomed. So Odysseus vs. Beowulf isn't Batman vs. Superman. It's more like Superman vs. Loki.

When did Odysseus ever fight Hector?

[Spacewolf]

I'll give the edge to Odysseus here. Most people who haven't read The Iliad interpret it through the lens of modern narrative conventions: The Iliad is the story of champion (Achilles) vs. champion (Hector), and Odysseus is naturally the smart guy in Achean League of Heroes.

That's not actually what was happening in the Iliad at all. The thing that kept the Trojans in the war was not Hector. It was the fact that they were all unified under Priam and had a big damn wall. By contrast, the Acheans were hamstrung by the fact that Agammemnon was such a complete tool that the Acheans preferred that Agammemnon lose before Troy did.

But man for man? The Acheans had the biggest assemblage of literary awesomeness until the Justice League. When Odysseus went up against Hector, he beat seven different kinds of crap out of him. The only reason Odysseus isn't more celebrated in the annals of awesome-dom is because he was teammates with Achilles (the best warrior in all of Greece before he got his invulnerability upgrade in later works), Diomedes (the guy who beat down two gods, one of whom was Ares, on the same day as he put Aeneas out of commission by hitting him with a boulder), and Ajax, reputedly stronger than either Achilles or Diomed. So Odysseus vs. Beowulf isn't Batman vs. Superman. It's more like Superman vs. Loki.

Ive never heard the story of Odysseus fighting Hector the only person who ive heard who fought hector to a stalemate was Ajax the greater (not bad since he was just about the only hero who never recived devine intervention). In fact the only time i can see them even coming close to fighting was when hector asked for single combat and both Odysseus and ajax volunteered but in the end ajax endied up fighting him.

When he was hanging over Charybdis that was only for at most 1/3rd of a day as charybdis sucked in the sea three times per day. Apart from his bow i carnt really think of anytimes he actually showed any superhuman attributes. Most of the time he just got lucky due to gods looking out for him.

[Ursus the Grim]

So Odysseus vs. Beowulf isn't Batman vs. Superman. It's more like Superman vs. Loki.

My money's still on Superman.

[Ravens_cry]

Odysseus is quite the fighter. Beowulf is "the fighter" in his own epos.
Odysseus on the other hand has several greek gods on his side looking over his shoulder and assisting him when in dire need.
And others who hate his guts.
So, at best, that's a wash. Given the duration of the Odyssey, it seems to be actually a disadvantage.

[dehro]

And others who hate his guts.
So, at best, that's a wash. Given the duration of the Odyssey, it seems to be actually a disadvantage.

they hate his guts and throw stuff at him, but never actually directly try to kill him outright. they put obstacles in his way, some of them lethal, but independent from their direct action once they're put in place. on the other hand, the gods on his side do actively help him out when he's about to kick the bucket giving him energy boosts and rejuvenating him and so on..which has a much more direct impact during or just ahead of a scuffle.
that said, Beowulf is probably a favourite, in outright melee combat.. if he manages to force the situation down that path. Odysseus has enough whiles and ranged weapon skills to make forcing things into melee...really really difficult, if not impossible.

[Ravens_cry]

If the guy can take on a dragon in his dotage, famous for a particular kind of ranged attack, and win, I think he can take care of a guy with a bow.
Odysseus is smart and clever, no doubt about that, but Beowulf is the stronger warrior.

[Doomboy911]

Did Beowulf actually slay the dragon? Because I get the inkling that he hurt it but didn't finish it off. That he left that up for wilgaf but I can't remember exactly.

[WalkingTarget]

Did Beowulf actually slay the dragon because I get the inkling that he hurt it but didn't finish it off. That he left that up for wilgaf but I can't remember exactly.

"Once again the king
gathered his strength and drew a stabbing knife
he carried on his belt, sharpened for battle
he stuck it deep into the dragon's flank.
Beowulf dealt it a deadly wound.
They had killed the enemy, courage quelled his life;
that pair of kinsmen, partners in nobility,
had destroyed the foe. So every man should act,
be at hand when needed; but now, for the king,
this would be the last of his many labours
and triumphs in the world.
Then the wound
dealt by the ground-burner earlier began
to scald and swell; Beowulf discovered
deadly poison suppurating inside him..."

Beowulf dealt the death blow, but had already been injured/poisoned and would later (and it takes him long enough) die from it.

Edit - looking back a bit further, Wiglaf had struck a wound to the dragon's belly just before this passage "and the flames grew weaker" - also helpful.

[Doomboy911]

Ah thank you. Must've missed that part.

[Ravens_cry]

Did Beowulf actually slay the dragon because I get the inkling that he hurt it but didn't finish it off. That he left that up for wilgaf but I can't remember exactly.
He had help, but it was he (http://www.lone-star.net/literature/beowulf/beowulf11.htm) who struck the finishing blow, with a knife no less!

[kpenguin]

He's a lover, not a fighter... but he's also a fighter, so don't get any ideas.

He is... The most interesting man in the Aegean.

Hello ladies

Look to your cultural hero. Now look to me. Now back to your hero, now back to me.

Sadly, he is not me. But if he manned up and swam across the ocean for days on end, fighting sea monsters, instead of being lost on a boat for ten years, his epic might be like mine.

Look down, now up. Where are you?

You're in the mead hall of the King of Danes, about to face a terrible flesh eating monster unarmed, with the legend your legend could be like.

What's in your hand? Back at me. I have it. Its a single manuscript preserving my memory that has survived over a millenia of different owners, rebindings, and a library fire.

Look again. The manuscript is now swords! Anything is possible when your hero is a Scandinavian king rather than a Greek coward.

I'm on a dragon.

[dehro]

hur hur hur

[Doomboy911]

Hello ladies

Look to your cultural hero. Now look to me. Now back to your hero, now back to me.

Sadly, he is not me. But if he manned up and swam across the ocean for days on end, fighting sea monsters, instead of being lost on a boat for ten years, his epic might be like mine.

Look down, now up. Where are you?

You're in the mead hall of the King of Danes, about to face a terrible flesh eating monster unarmed, with the legend your legend could be like.

What's in your hand? Back at me. I have it. Its a single manuscript preserving my memory that has survived over a millenia of different owners, rebindings, and a library fire.

Look again. The manuscript is now swords! Anything is possible when your hero is a Scandinavian king rather than a Greek coward.

I'm on a dragon.


Kudos that was cleverly done, if I was near you I'd applaud .

[McStabbington]

Hello ladies

Look to your cultural hero. Now look to me. Now back to your hero, now back to me.

Sadly, he is not me. But if he manned up and swam across the ocean for days on end, fighting sea monsters, instead of being lost on a boat for ten years, his epic might be like mine.

Look down, now up. Where are you?

You're in the mead hall of the King of Danes, about to face a terrible flesh eating monster unarmed, with the legend your legend could be like.

What's in your hand? Back at me. I have it. Its a single manuscript preserving my memory that has survived over a millenia of different owners, rebindings, and a library fire.

Look again. The manuscript is now swords! Anything is possible when your hero is a Scandinavian king rather than a Greek coward.

I'm on a dragon.

I still disagree, but that was very well-played.

[Doomboy911]

Anywho I feel like what this fight boils down to is who these two are. Beowulf is a soldier who has men who respect him but Odysseus is a general trained in the art of war from countless battles. He's gone toe to toe with with men who beat down Achilles . Beowulf is strong he takes down giants and maybe sea serpents like it's nothing but all in all he had an easy run. Dealt with three monsters and than he died. Odysseus fought monsters and giants a plenty, he faced the fury of the gods with bravery and determination (cause nothing else gonna get'cha past them). And as he went past his prime he proved himself once more by showing his brilliance, his power with a bow and finally how great a fighter he is. Yes those suitors were just sitting around but twenty vs one but twenty usually win. Just ask Caesar.

[Dienekes]

Anywho I feel like what this fight boils down to is who these two are. Beowulf is a soldier who has men who respect him but Odysseus is a general trained in the art of war from countless battles. He's gone toe to toe with with men who beat down Achilles . Beowulf is strong he takes down giants and maybe sea serpents like it's nothing but all in all he had an easy run. Dealt with three monsters and than he died. Odysseus fought monsters and giants a plenty, he faced the fury of the gods with bravery and determination (cause nothing else gonna get'cha past them). And as he went past his prime he proved himself once more by showing his brilliance, his power with a bow and finally how great a fighter he is. Yes those suitors were just sitting around but twenty vs one but twenty usually win. Just ask Caesar.

When did Odysseus face someone who beat Achilles? Odysseus never fought a giant. He got it drunk and blinded it, and then was almost drowned because he had to taunt the thing that was throwing rocks at him. He faced the fury of the gods by sleeping with a different one, then sneaking away because he didn't want to face her. Or hiding below deck and not telling his crew what they were facing as they were sent to their deaths so Odysseus could live another day. And then we get to him being some great leader who by the by managed to get every one of the men under his command killed. And let's not forget why the gods were pissed at him in the first place: because he couldn't keep his mouth shut. This isn't even going into the non-Odyssey stories about the man where he just comes across as an arrogant jackass obsessed with proving how much smarter he is to everyone else and ruining the lives of more than one innocent bystander. Or when he was eventually killed by his son, by accident.

Sorry in a straight up fight, give me the man who faced down a dragon when he should have been in bed.

Also the comparison to Caesar is ridiculous. Caesar was ambushed. Odysseus was the one doing the ambushing, he also had help from his son, and the suitors were unarmed. That's butchering, not fighting.

Actually surprisingly I think Odysseus is the much more interesting character. He's definitely more fun to read about, even when he comes across as the villain. But I really can't see how the guy can stand up to the Herculean acts performed by Beowulf.

[WalkingTarget]

Or hiding below deck and not telling his crew what they were facing as they were sent to their deaths so Odysseus could live another day. And then we get to him being some great leader who by the by managed to get every one of the men under his command killed.


You know, I understand that a not-insignificant number of people don't like Odysseus (starting pretty much from the Romans onward - metis was a respectable Athenian trait that the Romans and others see as underhanded/dishonorable), but people getting stuff like this wrong just annoys me.

Odysseus was not hiding below decks (if you're referring to the Scylla scene) in the first sentence here, and his men failed to follow simple orders several times, including the incident with the cattle of Helios which is what got the vast majority of them killed.

The Scylla incident is more complicated than people seem to think as well. The situation is:

They can attempt to pass the Clashing Rocks (a feat only successfully completed by the Argo, and that with divine assistance), an all-or-nothing venture, or they can try to sail by Scylla and Charybdis.

When taking that second option, they can try to sail nearer Charybdis and, again, risk losing everybody for a chance of making it through unscathed, or they can go by Scylla for a guaranteed loss of six men.

Deciding on the latter, again due to minimizing the absolute greatest number of losses, it is imperative to get past her as quickly as possible since delays could result in more men being taken - men cowering in fear or attempting to fight are not rowing, so Odysseus chose to not share the nature of the peril with the crew. He was still topside, on the lookout, and sharing equal danger since which men are attacked is unpredictable.

So, he made an executive decision to take a path that did not have a chance at killing everybody over ones that did (reluctantly - when Circe was laying out these options he very much wanted to try one of the routes that might get everybody through) and he chose to not share information that could only have increased their risks. It seems a bit heartless to do, but it's not a dumb move. The man has flaws (as Greek heroes tended to have, pride being Odysseus' rather than violent rages that seemed to be popular amongst some of the others), but being a coward isn't one of them.

[darthbobcat]

Odysseus is like Batman. If he had a half our to prepare, he'd win because he's much sneakier. However, Beowulf has the raw muscle (see: ripping Grendel's arm off.) So in a straight up fight, it goes to Beowulf.

[Xondoure]

Is it just me or would a better matchup be Beowulf versus Heracles?

[dehro]

Is it just me or would a better matchup be Beowulf versus Heracles?

more straightforward, if nothing else

also, more difficult to judge

[Wardog]

On a similar note, how about Achilles vs Cú Chulainn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%BAchulainn)?

Both are the ultimate warriors of their respective mythologies.

Both are nigh-unbeatable both in duels and in one-man-vs-an-army fights.

Both have the same prefered weapon (spear), and both wield a particularly famous one. (Although as far as I can remember, "The Spear of Achilles" was just a particularly good spear that was famous because it belonged to Achilles, whereas the Gae Bolg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%A1e_Bulg)a was something else althogether. But not quite as OP as some of the the other weapons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%BAin_of_Celtchar)) from Celtic mythology.

In terms of special abilities/super powers, Achilles has (depending on the version of the myth) his nigh-invulnerability, and enough general badassitude to take on a god, whereas Cú Chulainn has his ríastrad (battle-frenzy / warp spasm) that litterally turns him into a horrific combat monster.

And both ultimately died due to fate or the equivilent (Achilles due to the prophecy requiring him to die young; Cú Chulainn because he broke his geasa).

[Doomboy911]

Hmm since we're going off the map how about Gilgamesh v. Sun Wukong

Gilgamesh is a fighting machine who repeatedly ticked off the gods in an attempt to attain immortality. They create someone to defeat him and Gilgamesh beats him and becomes friends with him.

Sun Wukong fights the gods over some insult and beats them getting more and more powerful as he does. So a god himself decides to go up against him and Sun Wukong loses and than traps him until he gets some humility.

Sun Wukong might be a fictional character but so might Gilgamesh I think they'd make one heck of a match up.

[The Crash Man]

Speaking of going off topic, I misread this at first as Beowulf vs. Oedipus.

I have a feeling that would not be nearly as entertaining as Beowulf vs. Odysseus.

[Doomboy911]

Speaking of going off topic, I misread this at first as Beowulf vs. Oedipus.

I have a feeling that would not be nearly as entertaining as Beowulf vs. Odysseus.

"I am Beowulf slayer of monsters and dragon who are you."

"I am Oedipus the unluckiest schmuck in the whole world."