[3.5] Wild Shape advice

[phantomreader42]

I came up with a character concept for a thread in the recruitment forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239987), but I haven't played a druid before and the Wild Shape descriptions in the SRD and PHB don't seem to fit together all that well.

I'm wanting to create a druid who spends as much time as possible in wildshape, to the extent that he actively avoids his natural human form in disgust. I'm talking keeping watch at night as an owl, sleeping in leopard form, freaking everyone out by just walking into a tavern on all fours and ordering something in a bowl. A level of Master of Many Forms allows speaking in wildshape and turning into humanoids, and Natural Spell allows spellcasting, but equipment is an issue. Items worn are supposed to be absorbed into the wildshape and become non-functional (at least according to SRD), does this include passive bonuses or only activated items? There's an item called a Wilding Clasp that prevents an item from being absorbed (and it should resize), but buying one for every item worn is an expensive hassle.

So, what items work well for a druid in wildshape? What feats and tricks are best for enhancing wildshape? I'm working with WotC published supplements and SRD.

And I know about the homebrew Metamorph class, and like the idea, but it doesn't fit this game concept.

[Darth Stabber]

Vow of Poverty. Wildshape focused druids are one of the few things that actually benefit from it.

Something like this perhaps

Human druid6
Feats
Human:sacred vow
Flaw (shaky): vow of poverty
Lvl1:spell focus conjuration
Lvl2(exalted):nymph's kiss
Lvl3:augment summoning
Lvl4(exalted):touch of golden ice
Lvl6:natural spell
Lvl6(exalted):favored of the champions
Lvl8(exalted):exalted wildshape
Lvl9:extra wildshape

[Ranting Fool]

I'm wanting to create a druid who spends as much time as possible in wildshape, to the extent that he actively avoids his natural human form in disgust.

Wild shape lasts 1 hour/level. You don't get it till level 5 and a feat at level 6 Extra wild shapes gives 2 more times per day (It's in Compleate Divine i think)

The druid in the game i'm running spends most of his resting downtime as a Tree. He likes to cast Tree Shape (Level 2 spell, players handbook 1) and be the look out since you keep your spot and listen and being a half elf he doesn't need much sleep.

[Killer Angel]

Wild shape lasts 1 hour/level. You don't get it till level 5

The game linked by the OP, will start at least at level 9 or 10


There's an item called a Wilding Clasp that prevents an item from being absorbed (and it should resize), but buying one for every item worn is an expensive hassle.

So, what items work well for a druid in wildshape?

You must select what items will need WC.
You want to have bonuses to Wis and Con... use a WC for the biggest periapt and for the other one, pick a Ioun stone.
Absolutely use one WC for a girdle: if you cannot have a Belt of Battle, a monk's belt is a great choice for a druid.

[Darth Stabber]

The game linked by the OP, will start at least at level 9 or 10

And by level 8 you have 3 wildshapes (up to large) per day for 8 hours each. 3*8=24 hours. Tada, you never have to worry about wearing that silly mansuit. you can be a bear all the time. So grab your bear companion, summon some extra bears and away you go.

[Killer Angel]

And by level 8 you have 3 wildshapes (up to large) per day for 8 hours each. 3*8=24 hours. Tada, you never have to worry about wearing that silly mansuit. you can be a bear all the time. So grab your bear companion, summon some extra bears and away you go.

Sonofzeal, I summon you (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=223072)! :smalltongue:

[phantomreader42]

Vow of Poverty. Wildshape focused druids are one of the few things that actually benefit from it.

Something like this perhaps

Human druid6
Feats
Human:sacred vow
Flaw (shaky): vow of poverty
Lvl1:spell focus conjuration
Lvl2(exalted):nymph's kiss
Lvl3:augment summoning
Lvl4(exalted):touch of golden ice
Lvl6:natural spell
Lvl6(exalted):favored of the champions
Lvl8(exalted):exalted wildshape
Lvl9:extra wildshape

Problems with this:
I've seen VoP used for some screwed-up shenanigans, so I'm a bit wary.
Not sure which alignment fits the concept best (wavering between NG and CN), so exalted feats might not work.
Alertness and Endurance are required for Master of Many Forms.
Taking the Spontaneous Rejuvenation substitution, so Augment Summoning is less useful.
Need to look up most of the exalted feats anyway

But Extra Wildshape is very appealing.

[phantomreader42]

You must select what items will need WC.
You want to have bonuses to Wis and Con... use a WC for the biggest periapt and for the other one, pick a Ioun stone.
Absolutely use one WC for a girdle: if you cannot have a Belt of Battle, a monk's belt is a great choice for a druid.

I was thinking of combining items to minimize WC needs. Mixing Periapt of Wisdom with Amulet of Health and Hand of the Mage (since it's cheap and being able to pick things up is useful) might be good if it's workable. Belt of Many Pockets appeals to me, maybe with something added (for that matter, would CON fit on a belt, since it's a physical enhancement? I know it does in PF).

For AC, I was planning on using high-dex or flying forms and keeping Cat's Grace prepared, and wearing Wild armor if I can afford it (does that impose armor check penalty or limit DEX? Since it's absorbed into the form, it shouldn't interfere with movement, right?). Barkskin is probably a good idea too. Might look into abusing Permanency. I'm guessing a Ring of Protection wouldn't work without a clasp, but I might end up getting one eventually anyway.

Now, if passive-bonus items worked while absorbed, I'd only need WC for activated items and keeping gear handy...

[Darth Stabber]

Problems with this:
I've seen VoP used for some screwed-up shenanigans, so I'm a bit wary.
Not sure which alignment fits the concept best (wavering between NG and CN), so exalted feats might not work.
Alertness and Endurance are required for Master of Many Forms.
Taking the Spontaneous Rejuvenation substitution, so Augment Summoning is less useful.
Need to look up most of the exalted feats anyway

But Extra Wildshape is very appealing.

VoP is amoung the worst feats in existence, and most of th playground will probably agree with me there. It's only a consideration for three classes (druid, totemist, and incarnate), and that's only because those classes are tough to equip, and the vow removes the need to fiddle with it, and makes it easier on the GM because he doesn't have try ro figure out what obscure items he can drop that you will use. Actual shenanigans require a lot more optimization than I have provided you with. And it still really hurts since you can't have spell completion items to give you more reaach through out the day.

If you aren't going to do a lot of summoning, just drop spellfocus and augment summoning freeing up the two slots for alertness and endurance.

Spontaneous rejuvenation kinda sucks, but if you're intent on using it, have at. If you don't go VoP you are better off buying healing wands and using that.

Master of many forms is kinda cool, but I don't know why you would want it over more druid levels.

If you have room for it two levels of swordsage will net you wis to ac, some useful boosts and counters, and with the unarmed swordsage variant you get monk's version of improved unarmed strike. This allows you to make iterative attacks in addition to natural weapon attacks, have a reasonable AC, and you can use ToB manuevers in animal form without major problems.

[phantomreader42]

I was thinking of combining items to minimize WC needs. Mixing Periapt of Wisdom with Amulet of Health and Hand of the Mage (since it's cheap and being able to pick things up is useful) might be good if it's workable. Belt of Many Pockets appeals to me, maybe with something added (for that matter, would CON fit on a belt, since it's a physical enhancement? I know it does in PF).

And now I have the idea for a druid-only Batman-style utility belt with various druid enhancements, with the appearance as a deliberate parody...

[phantomreader42]

VoP is amoung the worst feats in existence, and most of th playground will probably agree with me there.

Maybe it's the homebrew "fix" that I've been seeing. In general I don't want to try to break the game, only twist it into amusing shapes, so my optimizations is kinda limited.


Spontaneous rejuvenation kinda sucks, but if you're intent on using it, have at. If you don't go VoP you are better off buying healing wands and using that.

The wand idea is amusing, I'd probably have to hold it in my teeth...


Master of many forms is kinda cool, but I don't know why you would want it over more druid levels.

A 1-level dip gives me the ability to speak in wildshape (to communicate with the party and freak people out) and to wildshape into humanoids (fun and perfect disguise). I don't get how the ability to turn into a giant could be very useful if the biggest size you can be is Large though, so I'll wait on taking any more levels.

[Darth Stabber]

A 1-level dip gives me the ability to speak in wildshape (to communicate with the party and freak people out) and to wildshape into humanoids (fun and perfect disguise). I don't get how the ability to turn into a giant could be very useful if the biggest size you can be is Large though, so I'll wait on taking any more levels.

Missed the single level dip part.

You could take the saint tempate instead (though it's a +2 template). It gives tongues, wis to ac, fast healing3, wis to ac, +2con +2wis, +4cha, +2 to spell save dcs, +1d6 holy adamage against evil with weapons (including natural ones), and a bunch of other stuff.

[Gavinfoxx]

DO NOT GET VOW OF POVERTY.

If you don't get vow of poverty, you don't need to dip a whole class level to be able to speak; instead you can simply buy a 600 gp pearl of speech.

By level 8, with a Pearl of Speech, you can spend 24/7 in Wild Shape, and communicate with your party.

By level 9, you could take Exalted Wild Shape and be in Unicorn form, and speak that way.

Or, also by level 9, you could take Frozen Wild Shape and be in Urskan form, and speak that way.

Also, just because you are in wild shape doesn't mean you can't have gear. Take the gear off and then put it on (maybe with an assistants help). Or use Wilding Clasps from MIC.

I made a level 9 druid statted out to take out armies, and it wasn't too hard to equip her.

http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=54924

[Lateral]

Sonofzeal, I summon you (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=223072)! :smalltongue:

That... has very little to do with the issue at hand. We're giving advice on how to make a good wildshaping Druid at 9th or 10th level, not saying that melee wildshape druids are impossible to screw up. Because they aren't, and we're discussing how to not screw them up. What Darth Stabber was saying, that at this level he can be in wildshape all day, is perfectly valid and has little to nothing to do with Sonofzeal's (admittedly quite accurate) argument.

[phantomreader42]

That... has very little to do with the issue at hand. We're giving advice on how to make a good wildshaping Druid at 9th or 10th level, not saying that melee wildshape druids are impossible to screw up. Because they aren't, and we're discussing how to not screw them up. What Darth Stabber was saying, that at this level he can be in wildshape all day, is perfectly valid and has little to nothing to do with Sonofzeal's (admittedly quite accurate) argument.

I think that was more a response to the bear thing, which goes back to WoW druids (and I've played one). A subtopic on the Sonofzeal thread addressed pitfalls people might fall into by going bear, such as assuming better defense than the form actually grants (since WoW bear form boosts armor to plate levels instead of taking armor away). But I don't plan to use bear form, I'll be looking at felines, flyers, stuff that's good at dodging or insanely tough, maybe a dinosaur. My focus is less on melee and more on enjoying wildshape, so I'll be prepared to snipe from cover, or throw out Entangle before pouncing. And I'll keep looking to see what new, tougher options I have at each level.

I need to look closely at the MM to check HD and size, but my common forms are likely to be Leopard/Lion/Tiger, Dire Hawk, Dire Wolf, Catfolk, Raptoran, some sort of dino, and some sort of owl. Though I reserve the right to change shape when doing so amuses me.

[Gavinfoxx]

The Druid Handbook has a good discussion of solid wild shape forms.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1354.0

[Lateral]

Well, the best dinosaur form is the Fleshraker (MM II or possibly III, don't have 'em on me). It's probably the best combat form overall, 'specially if you use Venomfire.

[Darth Stabber]

Well, the best dinosaur form is the Fleshraker (MM II or possibly III, don't have 'em on me). It's probably the best combat form overall, 'specially if you use Venomfire.

MM3. That thing is re-goshdarn-diculous. It's good for both combat and getting bruises on your head from a DMG. Deinonychus(mm1/srd) is the more reasonable version and is still one of the better low level forms (and a faintly better grappler). Crocodile is my personal favorite, especially near water, where it gets an awesome +14 bonus to hide.

[Marnath]

A 1-level dip gives me the ability to speak in wildshape (to communicate with the party and freak people out) and to wildshape into humanoids (fun and perfect disguise). I don't get how the ability to turn into a giant could be very useful if the biggest size you can be is Large though, so I'll wait on taking any more levels.

You could also grab a Pearl of Speech from the magic item compendium. 600 gold, lets you speak any one language which is set when it's created. It's even reusable. It would save you a level, unless you really wanted humanoid forms.

[Darth Stabber]

Also consider Improved Unarmed Strike as a feat. On a full attack you can make a full iterative of unarmed strike (with damage dice appropriate for your current size) in addition to all of your natural weapons. Add Multiattack and your all of your non-primary attacks will only take a -2 instead of a -5, meaning a lot more hits. Improved multiattack might be a touch much.

[Killer Angel]

That... has very little to do with the issue at hand.


I think that was more a response to the bear thing,

A little late, but yeah, I was merely addressing the "be a bear all the time", which can be cool, but requires some preparation.

[Darth Stabber]

The handbook doesn't cover PRCs, mostly because druids rarely take PRCs, but there are a few worth covering. Planar Sheperd is awesome, nature's warrior is worth a look, Master of many forms has some applications especially if you don't use exalted wildshape, and lion of talasid is pretty good too.

[Tvtyrant]

Lion of Talsid is my favorite, even though it isn't that great. Auto-pounce on everything makes some forms quite tasty.

[Venger]

You could also grab a Pearl of Speech from the magic item compendium. 600 gold, lets you speak any one language which is set when it's created. It's even reusable. It would save you a level, unless you really wanted humanoid forms.

Humanoid form is worth it for a number of reasons, one of the most compelling being:

step 1: cast "enhance wild shape" and pick ex special qualities
step 2: wild shape into drow
step 3: get SR equal to 11+character lvl
step 4: ???
step 5: PROFIT!!!

[Darth Stabber]

Humanoid form is worth it for a number of reasons, one of the most compelling being:

step 1: cast "enhance wild shape" and pick ex special qualities
step 2: wild shape into drow
step 3: get SR equal to 11+character lvl
step 4: ???
step 5: PROFIT!!!

You would only get SR 12. It uses the creature's hitdice for those sorts of effects, and that sadly is 1.

[Venger]

You would only get SR 12. It uses the creature's hitdice for those sorts of effects, and that sadly is 1.

Nope. That's regular spell resistance, not drow spell resistance:


—Spell resistance equal to 11 + class levels

and here too
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm

[phantomreader42]

Well, we found a DM, who's starting us out at level 6, so some of my abilities and gear are less. But worked with me on duration, and I saved on gear by crafting my own. Took a leopard animal companion and got him barding. Got myself accessible storage and a dual-function amulet, plus a small wand of lesser vigor. Prepared Barkskin, among other things. And noted the stats for Fleshraker, Swindlespitter, Leopard, Wolf, Shark, Porpoise, Eagle, Baboon, Dire Hawk, War Pony, Gnoll, and Catfolk. No Large forms yet, but I'll look for good ones when the time comes.

When I can afford it, I'm considering crafting a cloak that has the wilding clasp property embedded in it and grants a resistance bonus on saves and use of the Enhance Wild Shape spell. And maybe a glove that boosts DEX and casts Magic Fang on the limb wearing it.

[phantomreader42]

Nope. That's regular spell resistance, not drow spell resistance:



and here too
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm

But I think you can only take on the form of a base drow with wildshape, not one with extra levels, so the form's abilities would be calculated without extra hit dice?

[Venger]

But I think you can only take on the form of a base drow with wildshape, not one with extra levels, so the form's abilities would be calculated without extra hit dice?

well...no.

the same way you can't take a templated creature, you can't take a creature with levels. when you wild shape, you don't lose your class levels suddenly. ergo, you would use your class levels to calculate your drow SR. remember, class lvls are something you keep while wild shaped

[The Crash Man]

As far as wild shape is considered, finding forms that can fly are always good. At the bare minimum of level 5, you can stay in a flying form for around five hours. A wizard of the same level has one level 3 spell, two if you factor in bonus spells: if they spend both spells on flight, they can fly for ten minutes. Notice the big difference there. Add in Natural Spell at level 6 and you can fly high above the skies without a care in the world, laughing at anything with a sword.

As for items to use, wilding clasps are quite useful, but save them for only the essentials. Items that boost Wisdom (your main caster stat) and Constitution (which determines HP even in Wild Shape) are pretty useful for this, and some items like Wild Armor still function even while morphed.

If you really want to be a morphing master you could go for Wildshape Ranger, which gives tasty full BAB along with many Ranger bonuses, and then take that into Master of Many Forms. But that'd put a huge damper on any spellcasting plans, so it depends on what you really want to accomplish in Wildshape form.

[Darth Stabber]

I'd have to read MoMF again to know for certain, but I believe venger is right. Drow does indeed say class levels, which makes drow lycanthropes even less appealing, but makes them a reasonable target for druid MoMFs, at least for the purpose gaining SR. My first thought after realizing this was karsite whould be awesome, I opened the ToM and found two words that killed that plan right off the bat: spellcasting inability. So if it is ever somehow in your best interest to be unable to cast spell, now you know how.

Of course if you want to mess up a wizard really badly, without actually causing him harm, PAO him into a karsite, especially if your GM doesn't allow retraining.

[phantomreader42]

As far as wild shape is considered, finding forms that can fly are always good.

Eagle or Dire Hawk. And I can swim as a porpoise or shark, carry a rider in warpony form, go Fleshraker if I'm mad, use the Swindlespitter's blinding poison for getaways, and try Baboon, Gnoll, or Catfolk to be able to manipulate objects and use weapons. This all before I get access to Large forms.


Add in Natural Spell at level 6 and you can fly high above the skies without a care in the world, laughing at anything with a sword.

There are druids who DON'T take the Natural Spell feat? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0354.html) :smallamused:


As for items to use, wilding clasps are quite useful, but save them for only the essentials. Items that boost Wisdom (your main caster stat) and Constitution (which determines HP even in Wild Shape) are pretty useful for this, and some items like Wild Armor still function even while morphed.

I made two clasps, one on an amulet boosting both CON and WIS, the other on a Belt of Hidden Pouches so I have easy access to various gear (including things like dropping flasks of oil from the sky, then casting Produce Flame). I'm thinking of adding a strength bonus to the belt when I have the cash. Can't afford wild armor yet, but I'm keeping it in mind. Since "protection" is a neck slot affinity and I know Barkskin, I may add a natural armor effect to the amulet later too.