Highest-priority Pathfinder Books

[Larkas]

Recently, I bought the Pathfinder Core Rulebook, and I've been enjoying it and the game greatly. I had plans for buying the Bestiary soon, but then I started thinking: I have all the SRD available online, along with the 3.5 books for visual reference. The Bestiary is NOT a priority right now, though I still intend to buy it.

I've been thinking of Advanced Player's Guide, Ultimate Combat and Ultimate Magic, in that order, but I'm not so sure. I understand these are available as SRD too, but that lacks presentation and "pretty pictures", and these are nice to have on the table. Furthermore, the way I understand this, they can be used in a 3.5 (not 3.P) game with just a few minor tweaks, and both my players and DM would like that.

I'm not contrary to buying DSP's Psionic book either. However, I think it should come after all the others. Also, I'm partial to buying the Pathfinder Campaign Setting sometime soon, but it's not a priority either.

So, a piece of advice: which book do you guys think is the "highest-priority" to get right now?

[Malachei]

Tome of Battle, then Tome of Magic :)

Seriously, I agree that SRDs are missing a lot of important information. On the other hand, if you want to limit yourself to a certain amount of books, you may want to have a look at the PF Adventure Paths, for instance, and otherwise refer to the SRD. Of the books you've presented, I'd probably go for Ultimate Magic, mostly because I enjoy playing arcane casters.

And regarding my opening comment: 3.5 material can in fact enrich Pathfinder (and vice versa).

[Answerer]

Dreamscarred Press is a massively more talented and competent development studio than is Paizo, so I'd prioritize those books before Paizo's.

Also, seconding Tome of Battle. It's still by-far the best book written for 3.x, and is not hard to fit into Pathfinder (only Diamond Mind's reliance on Concentration is tricky, and it's not that tricky).

[Larkas]

You DO make a great point, but I already have my oh-so-beloved Tome of Battle :smallsmile: By far, the best "expansion pack" ever made for 3.5. I'm not really familiar with Tome of Magic, though, only occasionally flipped the pages of a friend's. I'll take a closer look when I have the opportunity.

@Malachei: I actually like "2/3rds-casters", and UM has the Magus, among other nice things. The APG has the Alchemist, the Inquisitor and the Summoner, though, which is why I was giving it a higher priority. I'll take a look at the SRD on the UM to be sure, though. Thanks for the advice on the Adventure Paths, though, I'll be sure to take a look :smallsmile: And I agree with your parting statement.

@Answerer: Hmmm, is that so? Their books do have SRD too, right? I'll be sure to check it out to make a more informed decision. Any other recommended book, aside from the Psionics one? Also, I would love to know how to adapt Diamond Mind to PF. Any advice on this?

[Malachei]

Using Martial Lore is one of the standard solutions. Others include making it a character-level check akin to a caster-level check to maintain Concentration. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Concentration).

[Zubrowka74]

UM also has tasty archetypes for the Alchemist.

[Answerer]

I'm not really familiar with Tome of Magic, though, only occasionally flipped the pages of a friend's. I'll take a closer look when I have the opportunity.
Binders are awesome and well-done (though the organization of the Vestiges leaves something to be desired). Shadowcasters are pretty cool, and... easily salvaged. Just use the author's unofficial fix, plus up their Mysteries/day somehow and allow players to create their own Paths from groups appropriate Spells, and they'll be fine in a mid-tier game. Or a high-tier game if you really let them go to town on those custom Paths...

The Truenamer is exceptionally cool, but the entire chapter is horribly written. Lots of important details (like how to calculate certain DCs) weren't even included in the book, and it's blindingly obvious from even a casual reading that the system never saw playtesting. There are at least two well-done homebrew Truenaming fixes out there, but you don't really need Tome of Magic to use them.


@Answerer: Hmmm, is that so? Their books do have SRD too, right? I'll be sure to check it out to make a more informed decision. Any other recommended book, aside from the Psionics one? Also, I would love to know how to adapt Diamond Mind to PF. Any advice on this?
All of DSP's stuff are Psionic; that's their schtick. I'm not overly familiar with their Pathfinder work, to be honest; I don't much care for Pathfinder, so I can't give specific recommendations. Just from knowing their 3.5 stuff, and having read their design comments, and from seeing some of Paizo's stuff, and having read their design comments... DSP is far more talented, or at least pays far more attention to the ramifications of their mechanics.

[Ravens_cry]

Ultimate Combat's new sub-systems aren't the greatest, but it has some great feats and some some neat archetypes, including one that makes me actually want to play a monk, as weird as that might sound to some people.

[Malachei]

All of the ToM classes really integrate very well. Also, they're a wonderful change from playing the usual casters we know so well.

Finally, they can also work together with existing game elements in one build, for instance, a wizard can take up binder and become an anima mage (excellent PrC, by the way).

[Zubrowka74]

Oh, and speaking of "nice" books, the second bestiary is prettier than the first, in my opinion. The monsters are more creative.

[jaybird]

Also, seconding Tome of Battle. It's still by-far the best book written for 3.x, and is not hard to fit into Pathfinder (only Diamond Mind's reliance on Concentration is tricky, and it's not that tricky).

Whenever my gaming group discusses it, we usually come to the conclusion that Sense Motive is the best fit for Diamond Mind, fluff-wise.

[Answerer]

Sense Motive's pretty good except that it uses Wis, which is not really a Warblade thing. Great for Swordsages though.

[Malachei]

The most important aspect of Diamond Mind's use of Concentration, IMO, are the save-countering maneuvers.

This is a crucial aspect of many ToB builds, and a strong reason to dip into one of the classes.

Therefore, I think Swordsage and Warblade should have the same starting position in the skill used.

[navar100]

Advanced Player's Guide is good. There are several new classes. A player in my group was underwhelemed when he tried the Cavalier due to losing a lot of class features when entering adventure areas where he can't use his mount, i.e. dungeons. The other classes are well done.

Summoner allows you to play "Pokeman" summoning creatures as well as summon one creature you specialize to your heart's content. Oracle is a spontaneous divine caster with class abilities based on theme. You can play the stereotypical Blind Seer. Witch is a nice alternative arcane class. You can easily play the stereotype (not necessarily evil). Inquisitor is a built-in divine gish like Duskblade in 3E was for arcane gish. I suppose you could also think of it as a divine version of the Bard chassis.

Naturally there are more feats, and they're worth taking. More spells, of course.

A nice addition to the game is archetypes. Instead of prestige classes, they allow you to specialize your base class by using alternative class features. You will find familiar 3E prestige class ideas among them.

If there's one thing that people dislike in the book is alternative favored class bonuses instead of the skill point or hit point each level. They are mostly ok, but some people get hysterical that human sorcerers can get a new spell known each level. "Hysterical" is hyperbole, but the criticism is not outrageous in my opinion. The hyperbole is for those who criticize as validation of their 3E derangement syndrome. However, there are people who like 3E and Pathfinder who find the free spells a bit much as well. It's not a problem not to use alternative favored class options.

Advanced Player's Guide is a good overall addition to the game when you want a bit more.

The Ultimate Books I find are for those who want to splurge on the works. Ultimate Magic gives the Magus class for a built-in arcane gish. There are more archetypes, feats, spells, etc. There's an alternative spellcasting system that takes a bit to comprehend. I find it works naturally well for spontaneous casters, but prepared casters are better off with the standard. Having prepared casters use standard while spontaneous casters use the alternative system in the same campaign can work and makes for an interesting way to differentiate them.

I was underwhelmed with Ultimate Combat. It offers the Gunslinger class. I don't object to the concept of a class using guns, and I laugh that it uses "grit" for its shticks, but I don't think the class works well with others. In other words, it sucks. Its damage output as the levels progress is far inferior to everyone else. Its coolness factor of things it can do does not provide a mid to high level feel of being such a level. The book does have a "called shots" system useful for those who want it. I'm not upset I got the book; it just didn't impress me as much as the others.

[Larkas]

Thanks for all the replies, guys!

On the Diamond Mind discipline, I guess it is best to substitute Concentration with Martial Lore. All the martial adepts have it as a class skill, after all, and it does make sense. Maybe make it a CON based check when it's relevant for the discipline or something.

On the DSP's work, it is nice to know that. I never really paid any attention to that kind of detail, but it DOES reveal a lot about the amount of work a publisher put in its work.

On the ToM, I'll borrow it from my friend to take a look, it obviously has more than meets the eye (ehm, at least more than met MY eye). Any specific fixes on the Shadowcaster and on the Truenamer I should be aware of? That would certainly help put things into perspective when I'm reading the book.

I think I'll go with APG->UM. Then I'll read into what DSP wrote, and decide if I'll take their Psionic book or UC next. I might take ToM before all that, however, I'll just take a look at it before I decide.

[Feralventas]

Just a quick note on translations of ToM and ToB to PF, since I've had to do a lot of it lately.

For Diamond Mind's Concentration, since it was taken out of PF, one can either elect to use the existing concentration check method for 'casters using initiator level as 'caster level, or switch the roll to a different school. Perception can, I think, work for this purpose, and though it doesn't work off of a Warblade's key modifiers, let's not forget that if you set it to Martial Lore (an int skill) you may be setting it to something that's not as effective for the already somewhat-meek Swordsage which also has access to Diamond Mind. Since Diamond Mind is all about split-second decisions and precision strikes, Perception just seems to make sense to me.

As for the ToM, I've found that grabbing some of the PF-provided tools for 'casters can work well to make them a little more effective. Shadowcaster benifits quite a bit from having the Shadow bloodline options (Sorcerer bloodline in the APG) or from a related domain. The extra spells known and the SLA's granted are a nice touch on top of the self-sufficiency aspects of Sustaining Shadows.

Truenamer would probably benifit from a Wizard school spec, probably a Rune specialized one. Or Oh Wait What's This? (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/archetypes/paizo---wizard-archetypes/arcane-discoveries/true-name)

Binder's actually doing pretty well on its own. Doesn't run out of uses per day, just can't spam them every round on some of the heavy-hitting ones. Allow online supplements to it and you're golden.

[peacenlove]

Thanks for all the replies, guys!

On the Diamond Mind discipline, I guess it is best to substitute Concentration with Martial Lore. All the martial adepts have it as a class skill, after all, and it does make sense. Maybe make it a CON based check when it's relevant for the discipline or something.


Perception or Autohypnosis are also commonly encountered substitutes.



On the DSP's work, it is nice to know that. I never really paid any attention to that kind of detail, but it DOES reveal a lot about the amount of work a publisher put in its work.


Just look for threads created by the user Psyren to find out some good guides/description about Psionics in PF. They are the best incarnation, even better than 3.5.



On the ToM, I'll borrow it from my friend to take a look, it obviously has more than meets the eye (ehm, at least more than met MY eye). Any specific fixes on the Shadowcaster and on the Truenamer I should be aware of? That would certainly help put things into perspective when I'm reading the book.



Descent of shadows (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74519) has been playtested by our group for 2 years and is what if a Complete shadow magic book would be published. We are talking professional work here. Bumps the shadowcaster a tier (from 4 to 3) with long lasting strong mysteries, class specific feats and more.

Pathfinder Shadowcaster (http://forum.faxcelestis.net/viewforum.php?f=21) is my contribution to the project, converting the Shadowcaster into the pathfinder rulesystem and power level. Also adding some more material I felt were missing from both official and homebrew content. While I no longer update it to the forums, I can give you a PDF of it if you PM me.

[Larkas]

Perception or Autohypnosis are also commonly encountered substitutes.

Perception is a little problematic because Warblades don't have it as a class skill. Even though this a lot less trouble in PF, the fact is that Warblades should have the same difficulty using maneuvers as a Swordsage. So, unless you give him Perception as a class skill in trade for Concentration, I think Martial Lore might be a better alternative :smallfrown:


Just look for threads created by the user Psyren to find out some good guides/description about Psionics in PF. They are the best incarnation, even better than 3.5.

Wow, that much, huh? I'll be sure to search them up.


Descent of shadows (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74519) has been playtested by our group for 2 years and is what if a Complete shadow magic book would be published. We are talking professional work here. Bumps the shadowcaster a tier (from 4 to 3) with long lasting strong mysteries, class specific feats and more.

Pathfinder Shadowcaster (http://forum.faxcelestis.net/viewforum.php?f=21) is my contribution to the project, converting the Shadowcaster into the pathfinder rulesystem and power level. Also adding some more material I felt were missing from both official and homebrew content. While I no longer update it to the forums, I can give you a PDF of it if you PM me.

Thanks for the links! I'll look them up immediately! Expect a PM soon :smallbiggrin: