How would you mentor Shinji Ikari? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Hopeless

2012-04-20, 10:37 AM

We (the evangelion fans) know that Shinji Ikari is a whiny teenager who is controlling a robot that he did not want to pilot. Here's a list of mentor that you would use for Shinji...
1. Commisar (Warhammer 40,000)
2. Heavy (Tf2)
3. R.Lee Ermey (Full Metal Jacket)
and you can pick your own "favorite" mentor.

Introduce him to Sosuka Sakara of Full Metal Panic and explain to them that they're the world's last hope against an invading extra terrestrial menace and have Sagara teach Shinji his particular brand of fighting as well as have him associate with the rest of Mithril and have Shinji's classmates transferred to Sagara's school so he can keep and eye on them...

Angels? They have no idea how much trouble is about to head their way!!!

Add most of the main cast for all of the Gundam series and make sure they know Shinji needs help and let them loose!

Now what was the name of that series involving spiral power?

Mando Knight

2012-04-20, 11:28 AM

According to Super Robot Wars (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/GetAHoldOfYourselfMan/VideoGames), all he needs is Bright Noa (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/GetAHoldOfYourselfMan/Gundam). It's a proven fact that people slapped by Bright realize they are/can be MEN OF DESTINY.

Aotrs Commander

2012-04-20, 11:57 AM

With a stick. A really big stick.

Or possibly my rocket launcher.

nyarlathotep

2012-04-20, 12:19 PM

The Ice King from Adventure Time. It would be so funny that the end of the world wouldn't matter.

Alternatively Commissar or Warboss Yarrick.

Terraoblivion

2012-04-20, 01:35 PM

Through amateur counseling that would probably make everything worse and make my own issues worse by having to constantly be mature, levelheaded and responsible. So basically, any attempt of my trying to mentor the poor kid wouldn't end well.

Nerd-o-rama

2012-04-20, 01:41 PM

Introduce him to Sosuka Sakara of Full Metal Panic and explain to them that they're the world's last hope against an invading extra terrestrial menace and have Sagara teach Shinji his particular brand of fighting as well as have him associate with the rest of Mithril and have Shinji's classmates transferred to Sagara's school so he can keep and eye on them...

Angels? They have no idea how much trouble is about to head their way!!!

Add most of the main cast for all of the Gundam series and make sure they know Shinji needs help and let them loose!

Now what was the name of that series involving spiral power?

But Shinji Ikari was already on Full Metal Panic as that crazy-ass kid piloting the Behemoth. Neither he nor terrorist!Misato made it out of that one alive.

Anyway, what the kid really needs is a role model who isn't drowning too deeply in their own self-loathing to give him positive attention. No one on his show fits the bill, so Super Robot Wars's usual circumstances of forcing him to hang out with the Greatest Hits of 70's Super Robot shows seems to work out well. Or Bright. But really Brightpunching and the accompanying dressing-down only works when combined with more positive reinforcement, even in canon.

Through amateur counseling that would probably make everything worse and make my own issues worse by having to constantly be mature, levelheaded and responsible. So basically, any attempt of my trying to mentor the poor kid wouldn't end well.

So basically what Misato did in the show, minus all the sexual trolling.

Agrippa

2012-04-20, 02:00 PM

Kid doesn't need a mentor. Kid needs a therapist.

I'll bite, who's the shrink you have in mind Tengu?

nyarlathotep

2012-04-20, 02:10 PM

I'll bite, who's the shrink you have in mind Tengu?

Perhaps Dr. Crane or Hannibal.

Agrippa

2012-04-20, 02:16 PM

Perhaps Dr. Crane or Hannibal.

Are you trying screw the poor kid up even more?

Tengu_temp

2012-04-20, 04:19 PM

I'll bite, who's the shrink you have in mind Tengu?

Anyone with any idea what they're doing will do. All such people apparently died in the Second Impact.

But Shinji Ikari was already on Full Metal Panic as that crazy-ass kid piloting the Behemoth. Neither he nor terrorist!Misato made it out of that one alive.

But they were antagonists! If Shinji was mentored by Sousuke instead of having to fight him...

He'd probably die even earlier. Yeah.

Lord Loss

2012-04-20, 05:38 PM

Lloyd Asplund (Code Geass)

He turns Suzaku into a killing machine and leads innocent little Nina to the creation of WMDs. I think he can handle Shinji Ikari (I haven't seen NGE though so I'm not sure)

Cespenar

2012-04-20, 05:53 PM

Are you trying screw the poor kid up even more?

That's not a half bad idea. Sanity through stack overflow.

darthbobcat

2012-04-20, 06:12 PM

We (the evangelion fans) know that Shinji Ikari is a whiny teenager who is controlling a robot that he did not want to pilot. Here's a list of mentor that you would use for Shinji...
1. Commisar (Warhammer 40,000)
2. Heavy (Tf2)
3. R.Lee Ermey (Full Metal Jacket)
and you can pick your own "favorite" mentor.

Ooooh, R. Lee Ermey... that'll be hard to top.

Genma Saotome from Ranma 1/2 (for the lulz)
Master Asia from G Gundam (Domon turned out pretty well, after all)
Anastasius Focht from Battletech (Focht knew what it was like being a teenager being led by the nose, he could help Shinji develop some spine)
Kenshiro from Fist of the North Star (again for the Lulz)

sentaku

2012-04-20, 07:04 PM

hmm, lets see

Mr. T
Batman
Captain Li Shang

darthbobcat

2012-04-20, 07:45 PM

hmm, lets see

Mr. T
Batman
Captain Li Shang

I'd prefer the Adam West Batman or the Brave and the Bold Batman for Shinji. He needs more camp and fun in his life.

Solaris

2012-04-21, 06:03 AM

Kid doesn't need a mentor. Kid needs a therapist.

A mentor is a therapist with a skillset.

The following phrases are best kept in mind with how I'd mentor this kid:
"The beatings will continue until morale improves!" and "This is my rifle! There are many like it, but this one is mine!"
Suggesting R. Lee Ermey hit it. Drill Sarn't got the cure for what ails the whiny kids. It's been my experience that once you quit letting them go "Woe is me," help them get some purpose and direction in their life, and get outside a show where Script Says, kids grow up just fine.
If not, at least I get to have fun traumatizing him until the world ends.

Marlowe

2012-04-21, 06:09 AM

Make him watch the first two episodes of Zeta Gundam. Then tell him "See that guy Kamille? Be as LITTLE like him as possible."

OracleofWuffing

2012-04-21, 10:39 AM

Doc Louis.

... Well, sorry, that's the only guy I can think of that'd make a good mentor for anyone.

Tengu_temp

2012-04-21, 11:12 AM

A mentor is a therapist with a skillset.

An amateur therapist, maybe, but I'm talking about pros. Amateurs tried to fix Shinji in canon already and it ended up just excellent.

By the way, seconding what Nerdo said: kid needs some positive reinforcement, not just people telling him "you suck, shape up *punch*". That'd only make his trauma worse. Hell, even the positive reinforcement needs to be done carefully, or else we end up with another reckless charger like Asuka. Or, even worse, Shinji and WH40K.

Make him watch the first two episodes of Zeta Gundam. Then tell him "See that guy Kamille? Be as LITTLE like him as possible."

Ouch. Kamille is like one of those people who self-diagnose with Asperger's on the internet, with an extra heaping of anger management issues on top of that (which seems to be a common trend among Newtypes, but I digress). He's not a good role model for anyone.

Agrippa

2012-04-21, 11:14 AM

I think Shinji should be placed in group thearpy under Dr. Emil Skoda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emil_Skoda_(Law_%26_Order)). Shinji's fellow patients are the following.

Nathan Ford
Parker
Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden
Steve Rogers A.K.A. Captain America (he has some unresolved feelings over the death of James "Bucky" Buchanan Barnes, but mostly he's here to provide moral support to the others)
Bruce Wayne A.K.A. Batman
arguably Malcolm Reynolds
Dwight McCarthy
both Terra Branford and Celes Chere
Doctor Victor Fries A.K.A. Mister Freeze
Buffy Summers
a sizable protion of the cast of Puella Magi Madoka Magica
Marv
Micheal Westen

A good number of fellow patients could also help mentor Shinji as well.

Seraph

2012-04-21, 11:26 AM

Suggesting R. Lee Ermey hit it. Drill Sarn't got the cure for what ails the whiny kids.

you . . . do remember that Gunnery Sergeant Hartman got shot in the face for his behavior, right?

NNescio

2012-04-21, 06:15 PM

An amateur therapist, maybe, but I'm talking about pros. Amateurs tried to fix Shinji in canon already and it ended up just excellent.

Dr. Lecter is qualified, right? Or was.

Alternatively, Dr. Samson, for someone who currently practices.

CarpeGuitarrem

2012-04-21, 09:37 PM

Dumbledore lives

2012-04-21, 09:55 PM

I'm seconding Kamina. I mean, seriously. I haven't seen any of NGE, but from what I hear, Shinji wouldn't be much more of a challenge than Simon was. My gosh...is it possible that Kamina could make Shinji into a badass?

Shinji has a lot of deep seated emotional problems, definitely more so than Simon. He manages to fight even with all the messed up mentoring and attempts at therapy, and actually does a competent job. Honestly, Kamina would probably push him until he died, it would not be a fruitful relationship.

Lord Seth

2012-04-21, 11:27 PM

I'm seconding Kamina. I mean, seriously. I haven't seen any of NGE, but from what I hear, Shinji wouldn't be much more of a challenge than Simon was. My gosh...is it possible that Kamina could make Shinji into a badass?The main issue is that the universe of Gurren Lagann seems to be designed to reward being awesome, whereas the universe of Evangelion apparently wants to make people suffer as much as possible.

Seraph

2012-04-22, 12:44 AM

I'm seconding Kamina. I mean, seriously. I haven't seen any of NGE, but from what I hear, Shinji wouldn't be much more of a challenge than Simon was. My gosh...is it possible that Kamina could make Shinji into a badass?

the main thing people seem to be missing here is that Shinji was more or less entirely justified in wanting to see the world burn. He doesn't need to be "whipped into shape," he needs someone to give him one good reason to want to save humanity.

Shinji is hella badass when the chips are down, which everyone conveniently forgets. Dives into molten rock without a second thought to save Asuka, Charges Shamshel with nothing but a knife and thirty seconds of battery power, and stands at ground zero of Sahaquiel's attempted colony drop and holds it back through a materialized barrier of force of will. And before anyone says "but he had to have his arm twisted to be badass," all three of those examples are things he did pretty much out of his own free will, and charging Shamshel was directly against the advice of everyone in the base, who were (ironically) telling him to run away and regroup.

Shinji is exactly as "badass" as everyone claims they want him to be. the problem is that he's just as pessimistic and fatalistic about it as an actual 14-year old with abandonment issues actually would be in his situation, but he does it anyway. The reason anime fans hate Shinji is deep down, they know that they would never be able to do even half the **** he does, and they hate that he dares to complain about being in the situation they would love to be in.

Consider Shinji's situation, and you will see why he acts the way he does. His father? Abandoned him for years, suddenly calls him up and tells him to come by, and instead of even giving Shinji the slightest bit of apology or respect, tells him to pilot the Eva or he'll make a near-terminally injured girl do it instead. Misato? she acts nice, but from shinji's perspective of things, she's just as willing to guilt-trip him as Gendou if being nice doesn't make him fall in line, and the way she acts at home seems like little more than an insulting facade. Ritsuko is, well, Ritsuko. Asuka openly sees him as a threat to her "superiority" and never, ever lets him forget it, even when she's trying to get him to reciprocate her romantic advances. Even Touji and Kensuke, who are supposedly his best friends, never really stop seeing him as "the guy who pilots the giant robot," and Kensuke repeatedly tries to use him as a way into NERV.

Almost every single person in Shinji's life, from his perspective of things, only pretends to be nice for the sake of manipulating him. The only exceptions, the only people who ever treat shinji with genuine unconditional compassion, are:

-His mother, in her form of Eva unit 01, who breaks the laws of physics to make sure her boy is safe.
-Rei, who only ever comes close to guilt tripping him once, as a statement of fact that if he won't fire the rifle, she'll have to.
-Kaworu, who never once asks Shinji for anything except at the very end of his life, when he asks shinji to kill him because he genuinely feels Shinji deserves life more than he does.

Think about that for a moment. of all the people Shinji knows, the only ones who seem to genuinely care about him are a Monster, a Clone Puppet, and the Enemy. He spends the entire series being guilt-tripped into saving the lives of people who, frankly, seem to be trying their hardest to prove that they don't deserve it, and he is acutely aware of this fact.

The reason End of Evangelion plays out the way it does is that Shinji has finally stopped trying to care about all of those people, and the three entities who ever treated him with unconditional kindness more or less ask him nicely to end the world with them and even offer him the chance to be the one in charge.

tl;dr: if you want to fix shinji's "whininess," he's the last person you need to be looking at.

Aotrs Commander

2012-04-22, 07:34 AM

tl;dr: if you want to fix shinji's "whininess," he's the last person you need to be looking at.

Well, to be fair, expanding on my previous answer, the first thing I'd do if I was there was apply my rocket launcher to what'shisface, the boss chap/father person, Gendo or Genma or something, is it? (been a long time since I watched it), and after I'd finished nailing up his mindless screaming soul to the wall by it's soul-intestines, I'd go and explain to the angels that a) whatver their place of origin is, it's not good enough to hide from dimension-travel capable Lich-crewed starships and b) illustrate that the firepower from aforementioned Lich-crewed starships is infinitely superior to anything they can possibly do via pratical demonstration from a comfortable 1 million kilometer range.

And then mentor Shinji with a Really Big Stick.

And then I'd shoot the penguin, to, y'know, balance all that out with me being Evil.

Kato

2012-04-22, 10:22 AM

No one recommend a Bright Slap yet? I heard it did work in some Super Robot Wars game...

Kamina is no option... He could help Simon but Simon never was even close to Shinji... Simon always was a fighter he just needed some encouragement.

Anyway... about Shinji... yeh, he is a wreck but honestly, that's no reason to just let the world go to waste. Stop being a selfish ****. If you don't want to save the world for your sorry ass, do it for other people.
Just make Lelouch give him the command and done... Or send him to a proper psychiatrist.

Tavar

2012-04-22, 10:51 AM

Anyway... about Shinji... yeh, he is a wreck but honestly, that's no reason to just let the world go to waste. Stop being a selfish ****. If you don't want to save the world for your sorry ass, do it for other people.

You really don't understand psychological problems, or the whole point of the series, do you? Gendo's entire plan involved making Shinji unable to relate to others, so that he wouldn't be able to do that. Plus, just willpowering your way through issues? Sounds great to say, but it's like saying to a double amputee "why don't you just get up out of the wheelchair and walk? You're only missing your legs."

Tengu_temp

2012-04-22, 11:06 AM

No one recommend a Bright Slap yet? I heard it did work in some Super Robot Wars game...

Here you go:

According to Super Robot Wars (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/GetAHoldOfYourselfMan/VideoGames), all he needs is Bright Noa (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/GetAHoldOfYourselfMan/Gundam). It's a proven fact that people slapped by Bright realize they are/can be MEN OF DESTINY.

Anyway, what the kid really needs is a role model who isn't drowning too deeply in their own self-loathing to give him positive attention. No one on his show fits the bill, so Super Robot Wars's usual circumstances of forcing him to hang out with the Greatest Hits of 70's Super Robot shows seems to work out well. Or Bright. But really Brightpunching and the accompanying dressing-down only works when combined with more positive reinforcement, even in canon.

HandofShadows

2012-04-22, 11:14 AM

you . . . do remember that Gunnery Sergeant Hartman got shot in the face for his behavior, right?

Hey, let's not mention little details like that. :smallwink: (Your right on the money. Hartman probably would have made Shinji worse if Shinji didn't kill him).

Man on Fire

2012-04-22, 11:28 AM

Sanger Zombolt, THE SWORD THAT CLEAVES EVIL, Bright Noah and Ryoma Nagare.
It's been done. In Super Robot Wars. They tutored him until he punched Kira Yammato and called him pathetic a**hole.

Kato

2012-04-22, 12:35 PM

You really don't understand psychological problems, or the whole point of the series, do you? Gendo's entire plan involved making Shinji unable to relate to others, so that he wouldn't be able to do that. Plus, just willpowering your way through issues? Sounds great to say, but it's like saying to a double amputee "why don't you just get up out of the wheelchair and walk? You're only missing your legs."

Not to make light of psychological trauma but it's not the same. The amputee is physically unable to do that. Shinji is physically able to man up and not give a **** about his dad and whatever other issues he has. I know it is the point of the show, or part of it, doesn't mean I have to like it.

Here you go:

Sorry, must have missed that.

Mx.Silver

2012-04-22, 12:50 PM

The thing is: Shinji actually isn't a 'whiny teenager'. In fact something you may notice throughout the series he doesn't actually complain about his problems to other people particularly often - which is consistent with his difficulties in opening-up to others - most of his 'whining' is confined to his inner monologue.
The reason for this is fairly simple: Shinji has depression, in fact he's arguably one of the most accurate examples of a depressed teen you can find. The reason why quite a lot of people dislike Shinji is because quite a lot of people have trouble dealing with depressed people in general, and would likely react in a similar way if they were given a similar view of any other depression-sufferer's mindset.

If fixing this is the goal of a mentor then, well, they're going to have their work cut-out for them because, like most mental illness, it's not terribly easy to treat. This is assuming there are that many characters who would actually be equipped to deal with it in the first place.

Shinji is physically able to man up and not give a **** about his dad and whatever other issues he has. I know it is the point of the show, or part of it, doesn't mean I have to like it.

Yeah... That is not how any mental illness works. At all. You cannot overcome it just by 'manning-up'. If you could, there would be a hell of a lot less of it around.

Tengu_temp

2012-04-22, 01:12 PM

Not to make light of psychological trauma but it's not the same. The amputee is physically unable to do that. Shinji is physically able to man up and not give a **** about his dad and whatever other issues he has. I know it is the point of the show, or part of it, doesn't mean I have to like it.

Yeah, the problem is, just because psychological issues/trauma are not physical in nature doesn't mean they are any easier to overcome. Heck, that usually makes it harder more often than not. You don't cure trauma by punching someone and telling him to man up, that just makes it worse.

Shinji already had a difficult life and a pile of issues before the show even started, and then suddenly the fate of the whole world rests on his shoulders, forcing him to fight eldritch abominations in terrifying and painful battles. And if he wins, the most he gets is a pat on the back, no counseling to help him deal with traumatic experiences (as I said before, all therapists apparently died in Second Impact) and (usually) no respect from his father. Getting angry at him that he's not a Hot-Blooded Super Robot Hero requires either lack of understanding of his situation, or lack of empathy.

Almost every single person in Shinji's life, from his perspective of things, only pretends to be nice for the sake of manipulating him. The only exceptions, the only people who ever treat shinji with genuine unconditional compassion, are:

-His mother, in her form of Eva unit 01, who breaks the laws of physics to make sure her boy is safe.
-Rei, who only ever comes close to guilt tripping him once, as a statement of fact that if he won't fire the rifle, she'll have to.
-Kaworu, who never once asks Shinji for anything except at the very end of his life, when he asks shinji to kill him because he genuinely feels Shinji deserves life more than he does.

I'd say "holy spoilers Batman", but seeing Evangelion is kinda necessary to participate in this thread, so yeah. And I'd say that Misato also cares about him without wanting to manipulate him and Kaji tries to be some sort of a mentor figure, but the former has her own issues and doesn't know how to get close to people in a non-sexual way, making her a terrible mother substitute, while we all know what happens to the latter.

Seraph

2012-04-22, 01:46 PM

I'd say "holy spoilers Batman", but seeing Evangelion is kinda necessary to participate in this thread, so yeah. And I'd say that Misato also cares about him without wanting to manipulate him and Kaji tries to be some sort of a mentor figure, but the former has her own issues and doesn't know how to get close to people in a non-sexual way, making her a terrible mother substitute, while we all know what happens to the latter.

see, you know that and I know that, but we're the audience. we know that because we have a third party view. Shinji doesn't know that, because Misato never actually opens up to him and, from his perspective, Misato's sexual advances late in the series come off as just another vector of manipulation.

As for Kaji, well, his first act under pressure that Shinji saw was him hopping in a Harrier jet and leaving them all to die via angel, which undoubtedly colored his perspective of the man.

Tengu_temp

2012-04-22, 01:55 PM

Good point there. Hell, one might speculate whether Gendou actually cares about Shinji and is just terrible at showing it, or just uses him to bring his wife back to him. Both options are possible and I don't think any is canonically confirmed, and I prefer the former.

Tavar

2012-04-22, 02:35 PM

nyarlathotep

2012-04-22, 02:54 PM

You could just you know give him meds for his depression. Can psychological issues be just as crippling as physical ones? Yes of course they can, but just like physical issues you can fix them with proper application of medical aid and rehabilitation.

Then again the biggest issue for fixing Shinji would be getting him out of the situation that is pooping on his life to begin with. Namely being a part of a plan by death cultists trying to assimilate the world into a giant borg-esque hive mind. He isn't getting the help he needs because everyone in power is either certifiably evil or extremely apathetic.

Mx.Silver

2012-04-22, 03:28 PM

You could just you know give him meds for his depression. Can psychological issues be just as crippling as physical ones? Yes of course they can, but just like physical issues you can fix them with proper application of medical aid and rehabilitation.

Medicating depression is actually a lot more difficult than most people think. There are an awful lot of different drugs out there, the reason being different will respond differently to different ones. Even if a given drug does produce a positive effect - and that's by no means a guarantee - you then have to consider whether it's going to do enough good to be worth, especially since all of them come with side-effects - some of which can be decidedly unpleasant. What's more, it will usually be quite a while (at least 4 weeks, typically) before any positive changes will manifest - assuming you're on a med that will actually produce one - and given that if you're on pretty much anything stronger than fluoxetine(prozac) you'll probably have to spend extra time gradually coming-off an unhelpful med to avoid suffering withdrawal effects it can take very a long time to find a med that's useful. If indeed you ever do.

Tavar

2012-04-22, 04:02 PM

Plus, the pills can't do everything. Well, I guess they could suppress the problem entirely, but at that point you're looking at it causing other psychological problems. The warning about suicidal thoughts that come with prescriptions of these medicines aren't for show.

Cespenar

2012-04-22, 04:03 PM

Kato

2012-04-22, 04:27 PM

This? This is utterly wrong. Christ, man. Psychological problems are issues with the brain. You know, that thing between your ears that manages everything you do. They are real problems, and brushing them off is a horrible, horrible thing to do.

Urgh, again, sorry, I didn't want to make light of psychological problems. But still, it is easier for someone to get over his issues than for a man without ***** legs to walk which is utterly impossible, guys.
I am aware that it is not just like "okay, okay, I won't be depressed anymore" and the brain is physical but you still have a better chance to man up than walk without legs or see without eyes or whatever...

Okay, back on topic.
It's not that I don't like Shinji (well, as a character) or anything and yeah, guy doesn't get much fun in life but still, what little good happens to him he doesn't really appreciate... he always just fixates on his dad ignoring him, and other things (but yeah, that's the thing I remember most about him)
I guess the show would have been entirely different if he wasn't like that but... I just didn't like watching him not always but more often than not.

NNescio

2012-04-22, 04:33 PM

Shinji's actually not that terrible of a guy. It's just that his psychological problems are conveyed to the audience in an extremely irritating way. Because, you know, irritating your audience is making good art.

I thought Anno Hideaki was recovering from depression when he directed NGE, and the psychological problems of Shinji and a decent chunk of the cast are based on first-hand experiences. Catharsis and all that.

nyarlathotep

2012-04-22, 04:56 PM

Medicating depression is actually a lot more difficult than most people think. There are an awful lot of different drugs out there, the reason being different will respond differently to different ones. Even if a given drug does produce a positive effect - and that's by no means a guarantee - you then have to consider whether it's going to do enough good to be worth, especially since all of them come with side-effects - some of which can be decidedly unpleasant. What's more, it will usually be quite a while (at least 4 weeks, typically) before any positive changes will manifest - assuming you're on a med that will actually produce one - and given that if you're on pretty much anything stronger than fluoxetine(prozac) you'll probably have to spend extra time gradually coming-off an unhelpful med to avoid suffering withdrawal effects it can take very a long time to find a med that's useful. If indeed you ever do.

I was by no means trying to claim it would be easy. Just like say giving an amputee a prosthetic it requires weeks or months to see positive growth, hence rehabilitation, before a subject can be able to live a normal life. Hence why he shouldn't be put in charge of piloting a giant cyborg.

The reason he isn't getting better and the anti-angel combat set up isn't smarter is because everyone in charge of changing anything is evil. Then again if you were powerful enough to get rid of them and allow Shinji to lead a somewhat normal and well adjusted life you'd also be powerful to change NERV into something that is actually efficient at fighting angels and dismantle SEELE entirely. Like say just begin actually mass producing those Spear of Longinus copies they whipped up, or reverse engineering what property of the spear allows it to pierce AT fields and apply it to artillery rounds.

Tavar

2012-04-22, 04:59 PM

Terraoblivion

2012-04-22, 05:04 PM

Mx.Silver

2012-04-22, 05:16 PM

I thought Anno Hideaki was recovering from depression when he directed NGE, and the psychological problems of Shinji and a decent chunk of the cast are based on first-hand experiences.
This is true. Depression and psychological trauma are fairly major themes of the series, if not the main themes.

It's not that I don't like Shinji (well, as a character) or anything and yeah, guy doesn't get much fun in life but still, what little good happens to him he doesn't really appreciate... he always just fixates on his dad ignoring him, and other things (but yeah, that's the thing I remember most about him)

Thing is though, that's what you'd expect given Shinji's depression. That's pretty much how people with depression act; the mental illness essentially prevents them from appreciating - or even acknowledging - positive feedback and events. Of course, the problem is that this is likely to make for frustrating viewing since a lot of viewers will struggle to sympathise with or even understand this sort of behaviour, because doing so is extremely difficult unless you already have a decent understanding of how depression works - which most people don't.

Fri

2012-04-22, 09:33 PM

Urgh, again, sorry, I didn't want to make light of psychological problems. But still, it is easier for someone to get over his issues than for a man without ***** legs to walk which is utterly impossible, guys.
I am aware that it is not just like "okay, okay, I won't be depressed anymore" and the brain is physical but you still have a better chance to man up than walk without legs or see without eyes or whatever...

Okay, back on topic.
It's not that I don't like Shinji (well, as a character) or anything and yeah, guy doesn't get much fun in life but still, what little good happens to him he doesn't really appreciate... he always just fixates on his dad ignoring him, and other things (but yeah, that's the thing I remember most about him)
I guess the show would have been entirely different if he wasn't like that but... I just didn't like watching him not always but more often than not.

Well, don't compare it with legless people or blind people then. Compare it to say, hyperthyroidism, since one of the problem with clinically depressed people might be problem in producing or using serotonin. Would you say that people with hyperthyroidism is physically able to control his thyroid gland and cure his medical problem just like that?

dgnslyr

2012-04-22, 11:32 PM

The main issue is that the universe of Gurren Lagann seems to be designed to reward being awesome, whereas the universe of Evangelion apparently wants to make people suffer as much as possible.

Ah, but Kamina would carry a piece of TTGL-verse with him, because in a way, he is TTGL. As a result, Shinji pick up some of Kamina's noblebright radiation, and develop more into the sort of hero like Simon, all indomitable hope and willpower.

An aside, I've always wondered what some sort of TTGL/NGE crossover would look like, either with the Dai-Gurren Brigade accidentally ripping a hole in the time-space-universe continuum and running into Shinji in the middle of fighting an Angel, or even just seeing how the TTGL-cast would behave if they replaced all the main characters in NGE.

NNescio

2012-04-23, 12:25 AM

Ah, but Kamina would carry a piece of TTGL-verse with him, because in a way, he is TTGL. As a result, Shinji pick up some of Kamina's noblebright radiation, and develop more into the sort of hero like Simon, all indomitable hope and willpower.

An aside, I've always wondered what some sort of TTGL/NGE crossover would look like, either with the Dai-Gurren Brigade accidentally ripping a hole in the time-space-universe continuum and running into Shinji in the middle of fighting an Angel, or even just seeing how the TTGL-cast would behave if they replaced all the main characters in NGE.

http://ompldr.org/vZGMwdQ/9f7f3b667260e6d231fec776de5bafda.png

/steepling

nyarlathotep

2012-04-23, 12:31 AM

NGE is a world that actively rewards careful planning and analytical thinking. Unfortunately the people who have been thinking and planning the most desire a world that will make everyone miserable. It's a lot like Warhammer 40k that way.

Also NNescio every single time you post an image, it is replaced for me by one that states the website the image is being hosted on has malware and I am being redirected to avoid harming my computer.

dgnslyr

2012-04-23, 12:49 AM

It's a picture of Kamina, posed in the style of Gendo Ikari, with his fingers steepled and only one eye visible through the gleam of his glasses. Now I'm imagining Kamina delivering an insane plan in completely serious deadpan.

Hazzardevil

2012-04-23, 01:10 AM

I think Shinji would honestly need a reckless mentor who never thinks things through, so we need someone like Kamina, only with less metaphors and more yelling.

For people who have suggested Commissars, he would be shot in 5 seconds.
I think we need a great military leader, who has shown courage and passion for a long time, his name is *****

Nerd-o-rama

2012-04-23, 01:28 PM

I think Shinji would honestly need a reckless mentor who never thinks things through

He had one. She made him miserable and then got mindraped into a coma.

That comment about the NGE world actively rewarding careful thinking and planning? The inverse is also true. Very, very true.

Tavar

2012-04-23, 01:47 PM

Which, as has been said, is kind of the point. Shinji has been manipulated for most of his life, ensuring that he develops depression, in order to fulfill his role in the plans of others.

Kato

2012-04-24, 02:56 AM

Okay, I don't have any too deep knowledge about depression but I'll still carefully state my opinion...

You mean like how therapy and medical aid still didn't help this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_Pistorius) man walk? I'd say he's had hell of a lot more success in walking despite lacking anything beneath the knees than most depressed people have at being happy regardless of treatment.
So, your point is...? If we had better treatment for depression, like an artificial way to inject serotonin/endorphin we could cure depression. But excluding any medical treatment...

Well, don't compare it with legless people or blind people then. Compare it to say, hyperthyroidism, since one of the problem with clinically depressed people might be problem in producing or using serotonin. Would you say that people with hyperthyroidism is physically able to control his thyroid gland and cure his medical problem just like that?

I never claimed he should be happy. I guess if you have a condition like that (I'm pretty sure Shinji has not) you can still decide to DO things on your own. It's just a matter of... well, what exactly? Reason? Kindness? Whatever.
Yeah, he can not think himself happy. But he can stop thinking "I don't care if everyone dies if I'm not happy anyway" (exaggerated) and put more effort into saving humanity. If I, a meantally mostly) healthy person can decide to cut my own wrists if I think it's a good idea he can decide to do something that goes against his depression.

Tavar

2012-04-24, 08:05 AM

Okay, I don't have any too deep knowledge about depression but I'll still carefully state my opinion...
This is obvious.

So, your point is...? If we had better treatment for depression, like an artificial way to inject serotonin/endorphin we could cure depression. But excluding any medical treatment...
Let's lay out the argument:
1.Comparison between someone unable to walk and Depression, as both don't allow someone to just willpower through them.
2.Arguement that it's not true, because being unable to walk can't be solved.
3.Evidence that, with proper therapy and medical treatments, it is possible.

Also, the issue with depression is that serotonin/endorphin are part of the issue, not the entire one. Plus the fact that not only would you need to inject the chemicals, but you'd have to make sure that the chemicals had some way to regulate release, so as to keep a more constant level. Oh, and let's not forget the problem that the Blood/Brain barrier makes using medicine on the brain someone difficult.

Just to talk about something I know more about, Depression may be much like Anxiety disorders. One of the big problems with treating such disorders is that one cannot, safely, remove all anxiety, just like removing all feelings of pain is actually quite dangerous. This means that, while their are effective medicines, it can be a challenge to find the right dosage levels.

I never claimed he should be happy. I guess if you have a condition like that (I'm pretty sure Shinji has not) you can still decide to DO things on your own. It's just a matter of... well, what exactly? Reason? Kindness? Whatever.
Yeah, he can not think himself happy. But he can stop thinking "I don't care if everyone dies if I'm not happy anyway" (exaggerated) and put more effort into saving humanity. If I, a meantally mostly) healthy person can decide to cut my own wrists if I think it's a good idea he can decide to do something that goes against his depression.
MORBO: DEPRESSION DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY: MORBO.

Seriously, you've show almost no understanding of how mental illness, and particularly depression, work. You're insistence that despite this fact, you can somehow suggest what someone suffering from this condition should do is at the very least insulting to those who suffer from mental illness.

Karoht

2012-04-24, 09:57 AM

I would have Shinji hang out with the Old Spice Guy. For about ... 30 minutes? Definitely more than 10 minutes but less than an hour.

Eldariel

2012-04-24, 12:32 PM

Medicating depression is actually a lot more difficult than most people think. There are an awful lot of different drugs out there, the reason being different will respond differently to different ones. Even if a given drug does produce a positive effect - and that's by no means a guarantee - you then have to consider whether it's going to do enough good to be worth, especially since all of them come with side-effects - some of which can be decidedly unpleasant. What's more, it will usually be quite a while (at least 4 weeks, typically) before any positive changes will manifest - assuming you're on a med that will actually produce one - and given that if you're on pretty much anything stronger than fluoxetine(prozac) you'll probably have to spend extra time gradually coming-off an unhelpful med to avoid suffering withdrawal effects it can take very a long time to find a med that's useful. If indeed you ever do.

The principal issue is that we don't really know how depression (or the brain in general) works so the medication is kinda just treating the symptoms, and even there we have to guess how each particular brain is messed-up to treat the symptoms the right way. Not having much of an idea of how anything affects anything beyond simple cause-effect understanding really doesn't help.

Kato

2012-04-24, 12:56 PM

[snip]

Well, I never claimed I knew but since you are apparently an expert... So depression makes you unable to control your own actions? Not talking about your feelings, of course but actions. I'm aware you can't be happy if you are not but you can still, to my knowledge, decide what you do. That's not true for all mental illnesses of course, bur we our topic is depression. So a depressed person is utterly unable to do something if her depression goes against it?

(Also, I still stick to my point about the amputee comparison... We were not talking about medical treatment but about telling an amputee to stand up. Period.)

Tavar

2012-04-24, 02:01 PM

Well, I never claimed I knew but since you are apparently an expert... So depression makes you unable to control your own actions? Not talking about your feelings, of course but actions. I'm aware you can't be happy if you are not but you can still, to my knowledge, decide what you do. That's not true for all mental illnesses of course, bur we our topic is depression. So a depressed person is utterly unable to do something if her depression goes against it?
I'm not an expert, by any stretch of the word. I know a bit about the topic for a variety of reasons, but I'm not an expert. Again, though, you betray some of your inexperience. Saying depression is just being unable to feel happy is a gross misunderstanding.

Now, regarding what depression does....that's complicated. First, it can be hard to even think of these other options, which automatically disqualifies them. Second, I would say that it does control your actions, to a degree. Its...well, hard to explain. Let me use Anxiety as an example again. Have you ever been in a life or death situation? Like, say, you're on an open plain, with just normal day cloths, and something attacks you. Hell, you were with a friend, and they already kill him/her. This will activate your flight or fight response, and to a very high degree, yes?

People with Social Anxiety have the exact same response to, say, getting up in front of a classroom and giving a speech. Or coming into that same room late. And the response will be preferenced towards flight.

Yes, it's just a feeling of fear, but feelings have physical responses. Your heart starts racing. Chemicals are released into the brain that make you want to get out of there, to flee. You don't want to be in this situation any more.

Now imagine that that same response happens time and time again. That whole Pavlov's Dog thing applies to humans as well, and it can be worse when our own bodies do it. Never mind the other effects: that reaction takes a toll on the body, making the person feel bad, because stress isn't healthy. This impairs their mood, which also impairs their ability to function. Furthermore, anxiety can and does grow over time, as one continually flees the situations provoking such a response. This means that more and more situations start triggering it. This can lead to other issues if it goes on long enough.

I guess the important thing to remember is the brain is what would allow one to willpower through something, right? Well, the brain runs, at least partially, on chemicals. And mental illnesses screw with the chemical balances of the brain. It shouldn't take much to put two and two together.

And it does vary from case to case: mental illnesses are never, as far as I can tell, of uniform strength. Some people have weaker cases, some stronger. Shinji likely has an extremely strong case. Especially by the end of the series.

Oh, and another interesting thing is that Shinji is a untrained civilian child. Compare that to modern military soldiers, who receive training and conditioning for their task, as well as fighting things much less horrifying than the Angels. And they have quite a bit of support from other soldiers as well.

Now look at the psychological issues that combat creates among the vetran population. Or the active duty population: I know I've read plenty of stories about people breaking down in WW2, for example. The fact that Shinji is going back into the Eva and fighting after the first episode is frankly, amazing, and speaks to the strength of character he likely would have if he hadn't had it ruthlessly crushed by his parents and the adults around him.

Now, I don't know if anyone's done studies, but you might also be able to draw comparisons between Shinji's case and child Soldiers in the current age.

(Also, I still stick to my point about the amputee comparison... We were not talking about medical treatment but about telling an amputee to stand up. Period.)
... The point is that both can only do what you're asking of them if they receive that treatment. I'm not saying that Depression isn't treatable, to some extent, but that without that treatment it is likely not possible.

nyarlathotep

2012-04-24, 03:06 PM

Now, I don't know if anyone's done studies, but you might also be able to draw comparisons between Shinji's case and child Soldiers in the current age.

I'd very much disagree on this and only this point, everything you said about depression I can more or less get behind. One of the defining parts of the "training" of child soldiers minimizing or removing their ability to form empathy, while Shinji, despite his other faults, still feels a very large amount of empathy for human beings whom he can see(he does have a few problems with thinking of people he doesn't know personally). In fact his father specifically utilizes this empathy to motivate him, which would go against any attempt to cultivate a child soldier like conditioned sociopathy.

Really though I think a lot of people's shortness with Shinji comes from the fact that he isn't very fun to watch, and fails to establish empathetically with the audience on a level where they want to watch his turmoil for its own sake.

Tavar

2012-04-24, 04:12 PM

I'd very much disagree on this and only this point, everything you said about depression I can more or less get behind. One of the defining parts of the "training" of child soldiers minimizing or removing their ability to form empathy, while Shinji, despite his other faults, still feels a very large amount of empathy for human beings whom he can see(he does have a few problems with thinking of people he doesn't know personally). In fact his father specifically utilizes this empathy to motivate him, which would go against any attempt to cultivate a child soldier like conditioned sociopathy.

Ah, my mistake. That part was not me speaking really from experience, but more looking at the similarities between certain situations. Seems there's more than enough differences.

Really though I think a lot of people's shortness with Shinji comes from the fact that he isn't very fun to watch, and fails to establish empathetically with the audience on a level where they want to watch his turmoil for its own sake.
Undoubtedly true.

Fjolnir

2012-04-24, 04:29 PM

Didn't Pappy Gendo deliberately set out to create this mindset in his son in an effort to screw over SEELE's plans to force the third impact and remake the world in their own image? I think the introduction of a kamina would probably monkey wrench those plans...

Solaris

2012-04-24, 04:50 PM

An amateur therapist, maybe, but I'm talking about pros. Amateurs tried to fix Shinji in canon already and it ended up just excellent.

Because they sucked at it, and were broken people themselves.

By the way, seconding what Nerdo said: kid needs some positive reinforcement, not just people telling him "you suck, shape up *punch*". That'd only make his trauma worse. Hell, even the positive reinforcement needs to be done carefully, or else we end up with another reckless charger like Asuka. Or, even worse, Shinji and WH40K.

He needs... to grow up. No ****, really. More on this below.

you . . . do remember that Gunnery Sergeant Hartman got shot in the face for his behavior, right?

Yeah, sure, in propaganda movies the DI is like that. In real life, it turns out somewhat different. Drill Instructors and Drill Sergeants really come in groups of four, and they have their own little roles to play in that group. Gunny Hartman was the Bastard, the guy in the group whose job was to make the entire platoon hate him so they'd come together. The movie, IIRC, was missing the Cool Uncle (he's either the coolest one there or the meanest, depending on how you've pissed him off), the Nice Guy (relatively), and the Father Figure. If you run into them afterwards, it generally turns out that even the Bastard isn't that bad of a guy.
I'll amend that. Shinji doesn't need Gunny Hartman. He really needs the other three. He also needs to not be in a propaganda movie.

tl;dr: if you want to fix shinji's "whininess," he's the last person you need to be looking at.

Not to be getting political, but I've spent my entire adult life fighting for people who stab me in the back. A lot. Every chance they get, really, and what's worse is they so rarely realize they're doing it.
I still go and fight for them. I've gone and faced death for people who couldn't care less about me or what I fight for, and not even for something as significant as life itself but something as small as the freedom to call me a murderer and a monster and survive doing it.
I do so because duty demands nothing less. I do so because I know what will happen if I do not, I know what will happen if those of us who fight to defend give in and quit. The stakes are significantly higher in Shinji's case than in mine. I completely, totally, and utterly fail to condone his attitude.
But that's not to say that I can't understand, better than most anyone here I'll wager, where he is. I, after all, know what it's like to be hated, manipulated, and abused by the very people you're protecting. I know what it's like to watch a friend be blown in half to fight for people who couldn't be arsed to give you the time of day in between spitting in your eye and defaming you in print. I won't go into the home life, but suffice to say that he doesn't have a monopoly on crappy childhoods. I just seem to have taken most of the same stuff and gone the opposite direction with it. If I seem a hardass, it's because I... well, have to be. My job is to kill people and break things; that does not lend itself to a gentle soul or a timid aspect. In public, I will not overtly be gentle, especially with my soldiers - it embarrasses them. In private or with kids (or dogs) is a very different thing. Shinji Ikari's a kid in a spot he shouldn't be, but he has to be.

Without some form of assistance, and a helpful environment? No, actually, it's not.

I was clinically depressed most of my life (early stages starting about age three, lasting until at least age twenty), and got over it after I had some people try to kill me. Before that I had a ridiculous number of therapists, psychiatrists, and I think I've tried pretty much every drug out there (with effects ranging from insomnia to increased rage). Nothing helped so much as really getting a perspective on life, the universe, and everything.
... Are we going to call the enemy 'assistance' and a warzone a 'helpful environment' now?

It seems you're completely ruling out the possibility that someone could work themselves through a mental disorder. That strikes me as odd, given that many mental disorders are basically aberrant thought patterns. It's like saying someone can't learn anything without someone to teach it to them.

You know what? Screw it. The guy I pick to mentor Shinji Ikari is me. Put the kid in my squad, I'll solution his problems. I got a carrot, I got a stick, I've been there and done that - let's make this happen.

Tengu_temp

2012-04-24, 04:56 PM

He needs... to grow up. No ****, really. More on this below.

He's fourteen. He acts like a kid his age would act. There is a reason they don't let kids serve in the military.

Didn't Pappy Gendo deliberately set out to create this mindset in his son in an effort to screw over SEELE's plans to force the third impact and remake the world in their own image? I think the introduction of a kamina would probably monkey wrench those plans...

I don't think that's the case, because in the end what Shinji (with the help of Kyouji Rei) did went against both SEELE's and Gendou's wishes. I might be wrong though.

Tavar

2012-04-24, 05:01 PM

Did the military just drop you into a warzone entirely unprepared? If so, uh...wow. Otherwise, you actually did have help: the entire purpose of basic training is to break someone down and then mold them into something the organization can use.

Also, it should be pointed that the difference between a 14 year old and a 20-something is pretty big, so there are things that one can get over that the other one can't.

Lord Raziere

2012-04-24, 05:25 PM

The worse thing about it, is that they didn't have time for the military basic training prepping. Shinji is too young to receive it ahead of time, and they basically blackmailed him into doing it immediately with no prep at all, when doing so was pretty much their only option due to how close the Angel was to winning.

If the people at NERV actually wanted to save the world from the Angels and such? Their actions would be a bit more sympathetic, because the sacrifice of one boy's psychological health to save the entire world? thats a cheap price to pay. three kids going insane? still a very good bargain for saving the world. its a friggin' evil bargain that reeks of cynicism and monstrous acts that no sane person would do, but its still pretty cheap compared to the world ending.

sure, they could've gone with the Rei route for Shinji and raised him to be similarly completely unable to emote or whatever, but then we wouldn't have the show.

nyarlathotep

2012-04-24, 05:37 PM

If the people at NERV actually wanted to save the world from the Angels and such? Their actions would be a bit more sympathetic, because the sacrifice of one boy's psychological health to save the entire world? thats a cheap price to pay. three kids going insane? still a very good bargain for saving the world. its a friggin' evil bargain that reeks of cynicism and monstrous acts that no sane person would do, but its still pretty cheap compared to the world ending.

If NERV really wanted to save the world from Angels every single step along its path would have been different.

The show's universe is unrealistically dark and grim for the sake of being dark and grim, sort of like a 90s comic book. Any attempt to fix Shinji would likely fail because the universe is specifically designed so that any reasonable hope for good things to happen is destroyed. It's sort of like asking "how would you undermine the militarism of the Starship Trooper book", the answer is you can't because Heinlein thought it was a natural course of events that was the best government when he wrote it.

Tavar

2012-04-24, 05:45 PM

Oh, they most assuredly could have given Shinji basic training. Or, something like it, at least. Look at Child Soldiers; they can be pretty effective. The only reason they didn't was because it would have hindered the eventual plan.

The fact that we shy away from it is based on our morals and society, not on some physical inability.

nyarlathotep

2012-04-24, 05:59 PM

Umm you keep using the phrase child soldiers and I don't think it means what you think it means. Children are significantly less effective than fully grown humans at fighting for the exact reasons one would think, their hormones are changing a lot and their bodies are still growing. Further more they aren't the sort of people it is wise to put in charge of a hugely expensive machine with potential for collateral damage.

In real-life young people are used in wars because we have a lot of them and they are seen as disposable. Child soldiers are used but dictatorships and guerilla groups for a number of reasons but these are some of the most important: it is easier to indocrinate a child than a grown person, it is easier to kidnap and force a child to fight for you because they are physically weaker, and lastly it makes parents in the area terrified that their children might be next making them more likely to cave to demands.

Tavar

2012-04-24, 06:09 PM

By pretty effective, I meant able to fight and kill, which is much more effective than many would think children in elementary school would fair. My point being that children can be trained to be soldiers, and thus Shinji could have been given training, if those in charge had wanted to give it to him. Hell, at the very least they could have trained him as well as they trained Asuka.

The last line wasn't talking about the children't effectiveness, but that it is possible to train/use children as soldiers, as there isn't any physical obstacle on the order of, say, trying to get a Human to fly unaided.

Solaris

2012-04-24, 07:36 PM

He's fourteen. He acts like a kid his age would act. There is a reason they don't let kids serve in the military.

... That would be why I said what I said, yes.

Did the military just drop you into a warzone entirely unprepared? If so, uh...wow. Otherwise, you actually did have help: the entire purpose of basic training is to break someone down and then mold them into something the organization can use.

This was once true. Basic Training now more closely resembles Summer Camp.
This is because civilians got involved. See what I mean about not even realizing it?

Also, it should be pointed that the difference between a 14 year old and a 20-something is pretty big, so there are things that one can get over that the other one can't.

Yes, there are. There's also huge differences between someone who's eighteen and someone who's in their mid-twenties. Not so much between fourteen and eighteen - and I joined when I was nineteen. I was a lot dumber less experienced when I was fourteen. Also somewhat more melancholy - and ironically, a lot nicer to people. My personality, my core ethics, were otherwise essentially the same. Teenagers aren't little children. They can handle a lot more than I think you give them credit for. I was handling some pretty grown-up things when I was just a couple years younger than him, after all (I won't tell them because, frankly, it's none of your business).
Shinji, in part, has a problem of not realizing other people deserve to exist. That's why he was so reluctant to fight, yes? How is this something difficult for a fourteen-year-old to grasp? I know I had no troubles understanding service before self and sacrifice even as a child, and I was by no means that precocious that it should be all too unusual outside of the more pampered upbringings.

EDIT: And above all else, never underestimate the healing power of someone who's been there, done that, came out okay and actually cares.

KnightDisciple

2012-04-24, 10:19 PM

5. Tavi

8. Ebenezzar (Harry's Mentor)

These are the only 2 fictional characters named that seem remotely reasonable as choices.

Tavi is young, for sure. But his journey from fury-less shepherd boy beginnings to his end result means he's been there done that, at least in general.
He's had doubts, and fears, and sadness, but he's conquered them. Moved further. He makes friends, and then he sticks by them fiercely.
He has an intelligent, cunning mind that could at least grasp the basics of the whole "fight the Angels" thing, and more than that could likely grasp what Shinji's going through emotionally and mentally.

He's not so proud he wouldn't ask for help (I'm sure Tavi would succeed in tracking down a viable therapist).

Tavi would be good, because he'd be able to give Shinji someone who can relate to where he is in this stage of his life, and yet also show him there's life beyond 14.

Ebeneezer McCoy is, in my mind, a better choice. He's older, has more life experience, comes from basically the same world as Shinji minus Angels and Evas (he can't use all modern tech, but he seems perfectly able to grasp the ideas), and (in my mind most importantly) has experience being a father-figure to a young man who's basically lost his way in the world.

I think McCoy would give Shinji the closest thing to a father the boy's ever had, which is astonishingly critical. If you give him that, I think they could build from there.

See, a mentor shouldn't be just a therapist, and while Shinji needs a trained psychiatrist (because he may well need medical assistance with his depression or whatnot), he also needs someone who's essentially a family figure in his life, one to provide life guidance and emotional investment. Someone who cares and isn't horrifically messed up in one way or another.

And I think McCoy could provide that.

Hazzardevil

2012-04-25, 11:03 AM

Not to be getting political, but I've spent my entire adult life fighting for people who stab me in the back. A lot. Every chance they get, really, and what's worse is they so rarely realize they're doing it.

May I ask who these people are?

Also, I think it would take more than one person to mentor Shinji into a more effective pilot.
You would need someone like Kamina, someone like Urahawa from bleach and probably someone sensible as well, not sure who though.

Solaris

2012-04-25, 03:45 PM

May I ask who these people are?

Also, I think it would take more than one person to mentor Shinji into a more effective pilot.
You would need someone like Kamina, someone like Urahawa from bleach and probably someone sensible as well, not sure who though.

No, because that rapidly falls into violating board rules and it's really not good for me to get my blood pressure that high anyways.

Another amendment to my response above: If you think anything can prepare you for combat... Well, I hope you continue to hold onto that and don't have to find out how it really works.

Hazzardevil

2012-04-28, 07:57 AM

It has just occured to me that Alan Sugar would make a good mentor for Shinji.

horngeek

2012-04-30, 07:28 AM

Misho Thrice-Radiant from Keychain of Creation. Twilight Caste Doctor.

Medicine covers psychology too! :smallbiggrin:

Marlowe

2012-04-30, 07:40 AM

He had one. She made him miserable and then got mindraped into a coma.

Never thought of Asuka as a "mentor". But oddly enough during the action arc Asuka and Shinja do seem to be pulling each other in the right direction. Then Shinja gets eaten twice, Asuka's own issues catch up with her, and everything winds up in pieces.

Nerd-o-rama

2012-04-30, 08:53 AM

She is, or at least thinks of herself as, his senior pilot. She's also the most hotblooded person on the show (and she's competing with Tomokazu Seki as a supporting character, so that's actually impressive) but it constantly screws her over and gets her in trouble (after the first time since Evangelion was a comedy show at that point for some reason). Even Shinji trying to emulate her hotbloodedness screws him over the first time he tries it.

Although, you do bring up a point...things go the best for the Eva pilots when they're balancing each other out as a team, ideally all three of them. Hell, they killed an Angel with their useless machine guns that way...

TSGames

2012-05-07, 02:16 PM

thubby

2012-05-07, 02:48 PM

a war veteran. one of character.
he could act as a father figure, empathize with the stress/horror of combat, and hopefully keep him in the war.

as terrible as everyone is to shinji, the last point is what matters most. because if he ever therpies his way into just saying no, humanity is over.
as cruel as it sounds, if he can be reliably put in that machine to fight, it doesn't matter if he's reduced to a gibbering heap.

Fjolnir

2012-05-07, 02:57 PM

1. Tyler Durden
YOU DO NOT TALK ABOUT FIGHT CLUB!

The first rule of project eva is you don't talk about project eva?

I thought the goal was to SAVE the world...

Brasswatchman

2012-05-08, 07:41 PM

... sigh...

... The Doctor. (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/7366113/1/Shinji_and_the_Doctor)

Brasswatchman

2012-05-08, 07:54 PM

(the sigh is because I've either just admitted to either reading or writing fan fiction, and either way, I've said too much.)

nyarlathotep

2012-05-08, 11:44 PM

The first rule of project eva is you don't talk about project eva?

I thought the goal was to SAVE the world...

No all of the people who want to do that have no power. The goal is to destroy the world in a specific way. Not even an awesome way either.

Fjolnir

2012-05-09, 12:21 AM

SEELE wanted to remake the world in their own image, Gendo wanted to bring his wife back from the dead and screw over SEELE, if anyone else had even close to a plan re: second impact I must have missed it...

Lord Raziere

2012-05-09, 12:42 AM

Yea in hindsight, virtually nothing about Neon Genesis Evangelion was that well thought out….or thought through well enough...

thubby

2012-05-09, 12:43 AM

Yea in hindsight, virtually nothing about Neon Genesis Evangelion was that well thought out….or thought through well enough...

it had a solid start. it's the ending that was totally shot because the guy in charge lost it.

Lord Raziere

2012-05-09, 01:06 AM

thubby

2012-05-09, 02:32 AM

So, if we should fix anything, it should be the ending?

Well I do always have an idea of a fan-fic of Shinji just not taking any of this garbage anymore, going slightly crazy, and just smushing Gendo under his mecha-thumb before he could fulfill his plan,

this much actually happened as part of an episode. or he tried anyway. unfortunately, trying to attack the people with direct control over your power supply and life support is rarely a good idea.

my idea for a proper ending (lets hope rebuild does something better), is that shinji is moping after killing tabris.
misato (or someone, idk who, she just seems best off the top of my head) acknowledges that he's been through terrible things, but that others have suffered too, and some worse than him.

he immediately thinks of asuka, who's not catatonic but still really messed up.
a montage would follow of shinji at first just being there, hoping to find some hope vicariously through her getting better, but eventually coming to find worth in being a friend.
asuka in turn stops placing her entire self worth in being the eva pilot extraordinaire (and in fact the memories involving them now cause her great distress), and at first clings to shinji for her own self worth which causes problems, but eventually finds that shinji's affection comes from him seeing a worth she inherently has and eventually comes to see herself.
they continue being dysfunctional and mysanthopric, but they trudge on.

and no, i dont particularly like the asuka/shinji ship. it's just the only way i can see both characters getting what needs to have happen without introducing a LOT of extra stuff.

LordVader

2012-05-09, 02:49 AM

Regardless of its effectiveness, I find the idea of Kamina "tutoring" Shinji immensely amusing.

Seraph

2012-05-09, 10:38 AM

Well I do always have an idea of a fan-fic of Shinji just not taking any of this garbage anymore, going slightly crazy, and just smushing Gendo under his mecha-thumb before he could fulfill his plan,

the problem with this concept is that Shinji already tried it in canon once already, just after the unit 03 incident. Gendo responded by overpressurizing the entry plug and incapacitating him remotely.

TheLaughingMan

2012-05-10, 03:06 PM

If it's an option, I would just give him a cool foster parent and a nice upbringing, but then again given the number of Mary-Sue fanfics start with that premise I am slightly hesitant.

Lord Raziere

2012-05-10, 05:27 PM

the problem with this concept is that Shinji already tried it in canon once already, just after the unit 03 incident. Gendo responded by overpressurizing the entry plug and incapacitating him remotely.

Well a very similar idea occurred to me after that:

Shinji gets in Unit 01. Helps Asuka take down the seven white Evangelions.

Then ejects himself into the NERV base, where he gets out of the plug, picks up a handgun from one of the dead soldiers.

He then shoots Gendo from behind, stands in the way of Rei, and they have a talk about stuff, with Shinji eventually persuading Rei not to destroy the world.

He then lets Asuka take out ADAM.

then all three all go off in Misato's red sports car that has somehow miraculously been untouched during the SEELE invasion, to go live somewhere else, where they shortly start bickering about directions, finally asking a man in a yellow bandana for directions, somehow wind up in France and argue more about directions.
and they have never been happier.

TSGames

2012-05-10, 08:03 PM

then all three all go off in Misato's red sports car that has somehow miraculously been untouched during the SEELE invasion, to go live somewhere else, where they shortly start bickering about directions, finally asking a man in a yellow bandana for directions, somehow wind up in France and argue more about directions.
and they have never been happier.
That's definitely not worse than the original ending.

Leliel

2012-05-10, 10:19 PM

Ciaphas Cain, hands down.

He's a lot like what would happen if Shinji got over his depression but not his fatalism or underconfidence, and would emphasize with him in so many ways. He probably understands just what Shinji is going through, since he deals with it every other day, and is just as happy about it.

Plus, that would lead to witty PR hound Shinji. That can only be a good thing.

Marlowe

2012-05-10, 10:25 PM

Yeah, like we should accept advice from the Angel of Night. You had your chance, Miss Sentient Wormhole.:smallbiggrin:

Lord Raziere

2012-05-10, 11:27 PM

That's definitely not worse than the original ending.

I can't tell if your being sarcastic or not, so I'm going to say this, assuming you are:

oh come on, why not a humorous ending?

Marlowe

2012-05-10, 11:30 PM

Oh, and nine Mass-Production EVAs. Not seven.

dgnslyr

2012-05-11, 12:31 AM

Nerd-o-rama

2012-05-11, 08:14 AM

Two are left over for future wacky hijinks, once they've settled down for a bit. They could even be Recurring Minor Villains! It'd definitely add a bit of excitement to their life in the French countryside.

Neon Genesis Double Evangelion. The mind recoils in horror.

On the other hand, guys. I think my recent foray into classic sci fi anime may have just provided me with the perfect solution to this conundrum:

http://www.jasms.de/anime/i_c_tylor/ict.jpg

Think about it.

Leliel

2012-05-11, 08:36 AM

Yeah, like we should accept advice from the Angel of Night. You had your chance, Miss Sentient Wormhole.:smallbiggrin:

Why you-!

I'm a guy, you unplanned glitch in the design!

Fine. I was just trying to help both times, and both times I was shot down, both metaphorically and literally. I'll just go over here and munch on New Jersey while you go off and cause Third Impact through your complete incompetence.

Loxagn

2012-05-16, 12:01 PM

On a more on-topic note.

Frankly, I look at Shinji and there's a part of me that thinks that this kid very desperately needs a hug. Preferably with a gentle-minded parental figure who's willing to listen and help him work through his problems. Constant encouragement, rewards for jobs well done, that whole 'normal, loving family' thing.

You know.

What a child's supposed to have.

t209

2012-05-16, 12:16 PM

How about tools from X-Com (mind rape proof thingy)?
"As the writhing, teeming mass of Mind Worms swarmed over the outer perimeter, we saw the defenders recoil in horror. "Stay calm! Use your flame guns!" shouted the commander, but to no avail. It is well known that the Mind Worm Boil uses psychic terror to paralyze its prey, and then carefully implants ravenous larvae in the brains of its still-conscious victims. Even with the best weapons, only the most disciplined troops can resist this horrific attack."
-- Lady Deirdre Skye, "Our Secret War"
(that's what Shinjo should abide to). Then again, he's a messed up teen who is forced to fight monster.

Solaris

2012-05-17, 11:28 AM

Fallen Angel

2012-05-19, 06:55 AM

Nothing less than a Space Marine Master with dark Warp powers. (Damn I forget the fic name.)

Hazzardevil

2012-05-23, 02:24 PM

Nothing less than a Space Marine Master with dark Warp powers. (Damn I forget the fic name.)

Thousand Shinji or Shinji and 40K, not sure which.

Lothston

2012-05-24, 01:56 PM

Yea in hindsight, virtually nothing about Neon Genesis Evangelion was that well thought out….or thought through well enough...

I LOL @ you :biggrin:

Remember, if YOU don't understand something, doesn't mean there's nothing to understand.

As to the OP's question:

Shinji's big problems are his uncertainty, lack of goal in life, and sexual frustration.

I'd teach him (personally :amused:) that he has the most powerful weapon in the world at his fingertips, and he should call the shots.

I'd facilitate an understanding between Shinji and Gendo Ikari: so long as Shinji does his job well - which is all that Gendo ever wanted of him - the kid gets all kinds of perks: accolades, a personal mansion, girls servicing his every need, whatever. And of course, he gets to live with his friends if he wants to.

Gendo's problem was that he didn't recognize Shinji's needs, he viewed the boy as a tool. Which is not what a pragmatic employer should be doing with regard to his best - and irreplaceable - employee.

Final thing I'd teach Shinji is to recognise the evil within himself. See it as an extension of his character, accept it, learn to live with it.

By positive achievement, recognition from his father and friends, the vicious circle of self-loathing would be broken. And with no self-loathing, the projection of the "shadow" on others would also disappear.

Since complementarity is basically Jungian individuation, this would cause a high synch ratio which would enable Shinji to overcome the enemy until the big finale.

And in the end it would be enough for Shinji to reject unity with Lilith and to retain the human world in its initial state. Happy end! :biggrin:

Of course, if I knew all of NERV's secrets, I could envisage a slightly different plan :amused:

1. Recognise the soul in the machine and use your mutual love to achieve a high synch (think Asuka in EoE);

2. The first angel you encounter - eat the bastard's core to get Supersolenoid capacity;

3. Proceed to consume all other Angels followed by Seele's Eva Series;

4. Become the Ultimate Power and rule the world as God-Emperor :amused:

Hazzardevil

2012-05-25, 12:01 PM

Shinji's big problems are his uncertainty, lack of goal in life, and sexual frustration.

Gendo Wants this, I'll explain at the bottom

I'd teach him (personally :amused:) that he has the most powerful weapon in the world at his fingertips, and he should call the shots.

Easier said than done, Shinji has dreadful self loathing issues.

I'd facilitate an understanding between Shinji and Gendo Ikari: so long as Shinji does his job well - which is all that Gendo ever wanted of him - the kid gets all kinds of perks: accolades, a personal mansion, girls servicing his every need, whatever. And of course, he gets to live with his friends if he wants to.
What you? Some nobody survivor who is manipulated by the remaining powers that be?

Gendo's problem was that he didn't recognize Shinji's needs, he viewed the boy as a tool. Which is not what a pragmatic employer should be doing with regard to his best - and irreplaceable - employee.

Gendo did recognize Shinji's needs, he just put Shinji in a situation where he would hate himself and be almost completely useless.

Final thing I'd teach Shinji is to recognise the evil within himself. See it as an extension of his character, accept it, learn to live with it.

Shinji knows there is evil within himself, he just never gets over it.

Since complementarity is basically Jungian individuation, this would cause a high synch ratio which would enable Shinji to overcome the enemy until the big finale.

Synch ratio is barely any of fighting the angels, the problem is he hardly ever has anything that makes a dent in them.

And in the end it would be enough for Shinji to reject unity with Lilith and to retain the human world in its initial state. Happy end! :biggrin:

Not as happy as you think, to get civilization anywhere near what is was, huge emissions would be released into the atmosphere, like the industrial revolution all over again. Only this time the world is pretty close to destruction.

Of course, if I knew all of NERV's secrets, I could envisage a slightly different plan :amused:

The question is, who would believe you?

1. Recognise the soul in the machine and use your mutual love to achieve a high synch (think Asuka in EoE);

I think Shinji thinks even his Mother hates him, so I can't see that working.

2. The first angel you encounter - eat the bastard's core to get Supersolenoid capacity;

The core broke remember?

3. Proceed to consume all other Angels followed by Seele's Eva Series;
The Eva series don't stay broken, and the other angels would just adapt to be less susceptible to having their cores broken.

4. Become the Ultimate Power and rule the world as God-Emperor :amused:[/QUOTE]

Shinji is too emo/self-loathing to want to rule anything, even if mentored to the point that he stopped hating himself.

Lothston

2012-05-26, 03:30 AM

"Quit whining, get in your giant robot, go beat up other giant robots."

Eh, that's what Gendo and Misato said all the time, it didn't work.

Marlowe

2012-05-26, 03:42 AM

There's....only one giant robot in the entire series.

Since so many people want to solve this complex and vital problem with sheer force, I suggest Takamachi Nanoha.

Now excuse me, I have to get Misato's orange dress let out. And to something about the Most Definitely Not Female Sentient Wormhole that has devoured New Jersey. But mostly deal with the dress.

darksolitaire

2012-05-26, 08:42 AM

There's....only one giant robot in the entire series.

Yup, this is jet Alone, right?

Nerd-o-rama

2012-05-26, 09:59 AM

If we go with the original usage of robot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R.U.R._%28Rossum%27s_Universal_Robots%29) as a vat-grown artificial humanoid servitor, or if we count cybernetic parts, the Evangelions count. Angels still don't, though.

If I care to be precise about Evas for whatever reason, I call them "giant cyborgs" or "bioroids", though.

Lothston

2012-05-26, 11:44 AM

What you? Some nobody survivor who is manipulated by the remaining powers that be?

Hey, the topic says I get to choose Shinji's mentor. I choose myself. As mentor, I'd have some authority, otherwise the entire premise doesn't make sense.

What I envisage is something like Kaji: a person without any actual power, but sufficiently "in the know", who has the ear of all the powers that be (NERV, SEELE) and is a mentor figure to Shinji.

Gendo did recognize Shinji's needs, he just put Shinji in a situation where he would hate himself and be almost completely useless.

Right, and it was stupid from the human resources point of view. A valuable asset like Shinji - the only one who could pilot EVA-01 (well, until the dummy plug but that's like halfway through the series) - needed to be treated with respect and his needs catered for.

Shinji knows there is evil within himself, he just never gets over it.

I'd say he learns to accept it both in episodes 25-26 and in EoE. But that's beside the point: as mentor I'd teach him to accept it.

Synch ratio is barely any of fighting the angels, the problem is he hardly ever has anything that makes a dent in them.

Synch is everything when fighting the angels, since the Eva's main weapon is the AT-field, which grows stronger with higher synch. And with a powerful AT-field angels are squashed like bugs (cf. Zeruel).

Not as happy as you think, to get civilization anywhere near what is was, huge emissions would be released into the atmosphere, like the industrial revolution all over again. Only this time the world is pretty close to destruction.

Well what I meant was, he'd stop the Third Impact from happening altogether. E.g. by destroying all of Eva Series.

The question is, who would believe you?

Again, mentor.

I think Shinji thinks even his Mother hates him, so I can't see that working.

Absolutely not. His mother is his "ray of sunshine" (unlike his father, who becomes both the Shadow archetype and the Other complex). In EoE Shinji was in despair not because he thought his mother hated him, but because he felt powerless and guilty with regard to all the bad crap happening.

The core broke remember?

What are you referring to? Eva-01 consumes Zeruel's core, so what I suggested was to have it done to all angels upon encounter.

Shinji is too emo/self-loathing to want to rule anything, even if mentored to the point that he stopped hating himself.

He wants recognition, respect, and love. I can show him the path to achieve it. Once he gets a taste, he'll want more. It's human nature :amused:

TheLaughingMan

2012-05-26, 05:40 PM

Right, and it was stupid from the human resources point of view. A valuable asset like Shinji - the only one who could pilot EVA-01 (well, until the dummy plug but that's like halfway through the series) - needed to be treated with respect and his needs catered for.

...You do realize that Gendo didn't exactly have humanity's best interests at heart, right?

I'd say he learns to accept it both in episodes 25-26 and in EoE. But that's beside the point: as mentor I'd teach him to accept it.

You could possibly, but it's not probable. We have a host of negative influences at NERV, and having only one sane person for people to cling onto does not immediately fix everything. You might just make things worse. I mean, what happens if you die before the end comes? How will Shinji cope with that, if at all?

And on a side note, given Gendo's plotting, I don't think he'd let you into NERV at all if you had any good chance at fixing Shinji. We're probably talking school-counselor levels of importance, which leaves you with little room to do much of anything, or know much of anything, for that matter. If you wanna keep arguing from the position of "NERV's coolest dude" or whatever, that's fine, but I don't see that happening in canon.

He wants recognition, respect, and love. I can show him the path to achieve it. Once he gets a taste, he'll want more. It's human nature :amused:

Aside from being kind of creepy, this line of thinking is rather faulted. There's quite a few more nuances to depressed individuals beyond "give them good thing=all better." You don't give a man everything he wants and he suddenly becomes a saner, better person. Things like that just don't happen.

And if course he wants more love. We all do. But by the sound of your phrasing here, he won't learn how to give any or why he should, he'll just learn to perform a set of tricks for a taste of more. Just to pretend to be a warrior who knows no fear out of want for love and acceptance, not to know what it means to be one. And that just might be worse off than he already is.

Nerd-o-rama

2012-05-26, 05:47 PM

Just to pretend to be a warrior who knows no fear out of want for love and acceptance, not to know what it means to be one. And that just might be worse off than he already is.

And again, we've seen a pilot exactly like that. It did not work well.

Lord Raziere

2012-05-27, 12:54 AM

Yeah, Asuka. Ended up going 0% synchro rate, going insane, then somehow piloting Unit 02 really well (:smallconfused:) and kicking ass then dying.

Really, no matter how you slice it, this whole thing was pretty much messed up from the very beginning. If there is a win scenario in this that doesn't involve some sort of mind-hive Instrumentality thing happening, its kinda on the unlikely side from where Shinji is positioned. Sure Shinji achieving said scenario is sorta heavily based upon him overcoming his own problems, but the fact that he is not equipped to deal with them and needs serious help is part of his position and is one of the things keeping this unlikely.

smuchmuch

2012-05-27, 12:24 PM

We could give him a dress and train him as the next princess ? (http://lparchive.org/Princess-Maker-2/Update%201/)

What ? it's not like that's be anything more traumatizing that somme of the stuff the series make him go though.

I'd prefer the Adam West Batman or the Brave and the Bold Batman for Shinji. He needs more camp and fun in his life.

(Well, assuming it's still Gendo who is pulling the string, I don't think that'd be the batman we'd end up with... (http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/videolinks/linkara/at4w/30458-all-star-batman-and-robin-3-and-4)

"So let's hear it, how do you propose to raise my son ?"
"I will LOCK HIM up in a CAVE and make HIM eat RATS to survive so he'll becomme FOCUSSED on the MISSION !"
"... You start tomorow."

On the plus side Shinji and robin bond up, reject their screwed farther figures, and form a robot piloting crime fighting duo !

...You do realize that Gendo didn't exactly have humanity's best interests at heart, right?

... Did he had anyone interest at heart for that matter ?
No seriously what was is grand plan ? As far as I can tell the ony results he gpot was provide a 14 year old boy a deep 'philosophical' revaltion he wasn't alone in the world.
(I suppose it's okay for a father parenting, but the giant robots and invading moster involved int eh eqaution seems a bit overkill...)

Megaduck

2012-05-27, 02:51 PM

How would I mentor Shinji Ikari?

I wouldn't. Shinji doesn't need a mentor. He knows what he is supposed to do and how he is supposed to act. He's just being crushed by expectations and demands and not being given any support.

What I would do is find someone that didn't need anything from Shinji. Not emotional or physical support. Preferably someone older, much older if possible. Grandparent age.

I'd then have the two of them do some sort of light task together for about an hour a day. Cooking, walking the penguin, whatever, as long as it was relaxing and they both could enjoy it. All this person would need to do is listen and be available whenever Shinji needed them.

Lothston

2012-05-28, 06:07 AM

...You do realize that Gendo didn't exactly have humanity's best interests at heart, right?

Why would I care? Grooming Shinji into becoming NERV's best pilot coincides with Gendo's plan to a certain point (destruction of all Angels and of the Seele Eva Series), so he will actually be happy with my results. Afterwards, once Shinji's potential is fully unlocked, the boy's trust in me will be far greater than his fear of his father. Once Gendo outlives his usefulness and becomes an obstacle, he'll suffer the same fate he had in EoE (i.e. being eaten by Unit 01). I could even make it part of Shinji's therapy - confronting and subsuming the Shadow.

You could possibly, but it's not probable. We have a host of negative influences at NERV, and having only one sane person for people to cling onto does not immediately fix everything.

I'm not aiming to fix everything. Just Shinji, and just in a certain way.

Although I wouldn't be adverse to giving a few private psychological sessions to Asuka and Rei. When they're not busy with my star pupil, of course.

You might just make things worse. I mean, what happens if you die before the end comes? How will Shinji cope with that, if at all?

Well, it would be too late for me to care, now would it? Anyway, dying half-way isn't part of the premise.

And on a side note, given Gendo's plotting, I don't think he'd let you into NERV at all if you had any good chance at fixing Shinji. We're probably talking school-counselor levels of importance, which leaves you with little room to do much of anything, or know much of anything, for that matter. If you wanna keep arguing from the position of "NERV's coolest dude" or whatever, that's fine, but I don't see that happening in canon.

Again, premise. It assumes the mentor does have a necessary level of influence to have an effect, otherwise it's pointless.

Aside from being kind of creepy, this line of thinking is rather faulted. There's quite a few more nuances to depressed individuals beyond "give them good thing=all better." You don't give a man everything he wants and he suddenly becomes a saner, better person. Things like that just don't happen.

I don't want to make him a saner, better person per se. What I want is give him tangible goals and rid him of self-defeating inefficiencies. If he becomes a complete monster in the process, so be it. As long as he's controllable.

And if course he wants more love. We all do. But by the sound of your phrasing here, he won't learn how to give any or why he should, he'll just learn to perform a set of tricks for a taste of more.

Well, he certainly will learn how to give love if you know what I mean :amused:

And isn't our entire existence just performing a set of tricks for a taste of something nice?

Just to pretend to be a warrior who knows no fear out of want for love and acceptance, not to know what it means to be one. And that just might be worse off than he already is.

No, not "pretend" and not self-delude. That already happened in the series (fight with Leliel, the Twelfth Angel), and it had bitter consequences. What I'm talking about is actual individuation, acceptance of the self and recognition of personal potential. So that Shinji learns to acknowledge and accept both his flaws and his strengths, and build on the strengths while indulging the desires. That would lead to a growth of self-esteem, destroy the various complexes and consequently dramatically increase synch ratio, which in turn will provide more positive reinforcement. It will be a beneficial circle instead of the circulus vitiosus found in the series.

And if I come out of it as the close personal advisor and mentor figure to the most powerful being on the planet, well, call it a job benefit :amused:

Marlowe

2012-05-28, 06:37 AM

Off topic, but could people avoid paraphrasing/quoting the Bokurano theme tune in an Evangelion thread? Talk about tempting the dark side.:smallbiggrin:

Tavar

2012-05-28, 09:05 PM

... Did he had anyone interest at heart for that matter ?
No seriously what was is grand plan ? As far as I can tell the ony results he gpot was provide a 14 year old boy a deep 'philosophical' revaltion he wasn't alone in the world.

His intended ending is one where he ends up as effectively God, and is able to bring back his wife.

TheLaughingMan

2012-05-28, 10:58 PM

Why would I care? Grooming Shinji into becoming NERV's best pilot coincides with Gendo's plan to a certain point (destruction of all Angels and of the Seele Eva Series), so he will actually be happy with my results. Afterwards, once Shinji's potential is fully unlocked, the boy's trust in me will be far greater than his fear of his father. Once Gendo outlives his usefulness and becomes an obstacle, he'll suffer the same fate he had in EoE (i.e. being eaten by Unit 01). I could even make it part of Shinji's therapy - confronting and subsuming the Shadow.

I must say, you're quite intent on becoming a Saturday-morning cartoon villain. :smalltongue:

Well, it would be too late for me to care, now would it? Anyway, dying half-way isn't part of the premise.

The premise is "how would you mentor Shinji Ikari, A.K.A. the main protagonist of what ends up being almost a slasher move?" You've got to account for your death somewhere in your plan there, Xanatos. It's just common sense.

Again, premise. It assumes the mentor does have a necessary level of influence to have an effect, otherwise it's pointless.

Look at Megaduck's example. You don't need to be big OC guy and come in with full-fledged casthood. The best you can do to be is there for him without wanting anything in return. That on its own could work wonders for the kid.

I don't want to make him a saner, better person per se. What I want is give him tangible goals and rid him of self-defeating inefficiencies. If he becomes a complete monster in the process, so be it. As long as he's controllable.

Alright, c'mon. Even the Eva characters at least pretended they weren't card-carrying villains. If a crazed, monstrous Shinji Ikari ends up being the result of your mentorhood, I can pretty affirmably call it a complete failure.

Well, he certainly will learn how to give love if you know what I mean :amused:

And isn't our entire existence just performing a set of tricks for a taste of something nice?

A. oh glob no

B. Not unless you're a touch sociopathic and/or desperate. Look at the army, for example: Can you honestly say all those men and women ship themselves off sometimes to certain death out of selfish ambition?

No, not "pretend" and not self-delude. That already happened in the series (fight with Leliel, the Twelfth Angel), and it had bitter consequences. What I'm talking about is actual individuation, acceptance of the self and recognition of personal potential. So that Shinji learns to acknowledge and accept both his flaws and his strengths, and build on the strengths while indulging the desires. That would lead to a growth of self-esteem, destroy the various complexes and consequently dramatically increase synch ratio, which in turn will provide more positive reinforcement. It will be a beneficial circle instead of the circulus vitiosus found in the series.

And tell me, how precisely will you get this miracle cure of yours work? You've said things like "Imma totally fix Shinji you guys don't sweat it," but I don't see any halfway realistic way for you to secure your doomsday plan's success without everyone being wildly out of character.

And if I come out of it as the close personal advisor and mentor figure to the most powerful being on the planet, well, call it a job benefit :amused:

Yeah yeah, you can quit twirling your mustache now. :smalltongue:

Off topic, but could people avoid paraphrasing/quoting the Bokurano theme tune in an Evangelion thread? Talk about tempting the dark side.:smallbiggrin:

Should you carve Shinji to fit the world... or carve the world to fit Shinji?