Simulacrum question.

[Wookie-ranger]

Simulacrum AKA the ultimate cheese spell (or at least one of them)
We usually try to avoid game breaking things in our campaigns, but i am working on some Super-Cheese build.

SRD:

It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only one-half of the real creature’s levels or Hit Dice (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD). You can’t create a simulacrum of a creature whose Hit Dice or levels exceed twice your caster level.

ok, does that mean i can create a creature with HD=2x caster level. but it will only have only have 1/2 level,HD,etc...
Why does it not simply say "HD=CL"??

[Emperor Tippy]

Because HD=CL isn't the case.

If you make a copy of yourself, for example, it's CL would be half of yours.

And unless you are using tricks to bypass the needed material component, you aren't going to be replicating creatures that end with as many HD as you do.

[Ranting Fool]

Ok so you need to be a level 13 Arcane caster to cast this, well thats not true but a Wizard has to be at least level 13 so we'll start with that.

You could make a Simulacrum of a creature up to 26 HD (Twice yours) which then gets halved.... you know you are totally right. Making a critter of max HD=CL would be the same :smallbiggrin::smallconfused::smallbiggrin:

[Diarmuid]

HD=CL only applies if you're casting this spell on something with HD = 2x your CL.

If you're CL 15 and you want to Simulacrum something with 20HD, well the Sim is only going to ahve 10HD.

It doesnt say what you think it should because that only applies to a single possible interaction of HD and CL. Their formula accounts for all allowable permutations.

[Snowbluff]

Bamboo Spiritfolk Wizard3/Druid1/ArcaneHierophant10/MysticTheurge.

Feats: Early Entry Cheese for Druid, retrain it away later.
Theurgic Bond, DR #325 (Add other caster level to your Specialist Wizard for your Illusions)
Arcane Thesis
2 Practiced Spellcaster

items: Ioun Stone for +1 CL
Prayer Bead of Karma, +4 CL (SHould work for you, due to Druid Casting)
Though Bottle (Exp costs are a pain).



So 2+5+20+20=47, and you can probably find some feats and other stuff for that last caster level to make yourself a Tarrasque :smallbiggrin:
Solars are also good, as is anything with regeneration.

[KillianHawkeye]

And unless you are using tricks to bypass the needed material component, you aren't going to be replicating creatures that end with as many HD as you do.

Can you please explain this statement? Sure, a few thousand gp in ruby dust is a little expensive to be using all the time, but that doesn't mean you can't ever make the strongest creature your CL can affect.

[Emperor Tippy]

Can you please explain this statement? Sure, a few thousand gp in ruby dust is a little expensive to be using all the time, but that doesn't mean you can't ever make the strongest creature your CL can affect.
You need a biological sample from the creature you want to replicate. Want to replicate a Solar? Then you need Solar Blood. The easiest way to get that is to gate one in and order it to contribute a vial of blood but this would fall under the tricks header (along with claiming that your spell components pouch has it, that eschew materials counts, etc.). If you can't do that then you need to 1) convince a Solar to give you some blood, 2) injure a Solar and gather some that way, 3) find someone selling it and buy it for what is probably an astronomical price, 4) find some laying around.

---
I house rule Simulacrum to require a biological sample no older than 1 day (or protected in some way from the ravages of time) from the desired creature as a focus. Alternatively, you can substitute a True Name component if you know the targets True Name. Ice Assassin is altered to always require either a True Name component, the willing participation of the entity being copied, or the entity to be copied remaining within a ritual circle for the duration of the spell.

Granted, Wished scrolls can still get around this (the components being included in the scrolls construction) but that's where the second house rule kicks in. A character can only have up to their HD worth of Ice Assassins living, attempts to create more than this just lead to the spell failing. The same applies to Simulacrum except the limit is 2*HD.

Sure, there are still ways around those limits (nothing is stopping your Ice Assassin from creating it's own Ice Assassins) but the above rules tend to cut down on a lot of the abuse.

Especially when combined with the homebrew epic feat "There can be only one" which prevents the creation of any copies of anyone who has the feat (the only exception being that they can copy themselves). What do you know, no more copying gods, epic casters, etc.

[Venger]

Sure, there are still ways around those limits (nothing is stopping your Ice Assassin from creating it's own Ice Assassins) but the above rules tend to cut down on a lot of the abuse.

since the ice assassin can't level up or gain xp (presumably he starts with half as much xp as his source) making ice assassins is probably the best thing he can do with all those experience points (or crafting stuff when he gets below 5k)

one question about simulacrum. does it have the same feats that its target had at that particular level? or do you pick them? If you're making a simulacrum of an NPC where it's unclear what order they picked them in, do you pick? are you allowed to pick better feats?

[Emperor Tippy]

since the ice assassin can't level up or gain xp (presumably he starts with half as much xp as his source) making ice assassins is probably the best thing he can do with all those experience points (or crafting stuff when he gets below 5k)
Pretty much, they are great XP farms.


one question about simulacrum. does it have the same feats that its target had at that particular level? or do you pick them? If you're making a simulacrum of an NPC where it's unclear what order they picked them in, do you pick? are you allowed to pick better feats?
Yep, it's same feats as the target at the lower level. Although with NPC's and monsters I just figure use a random dice roll to figure out which feats to take away (say a creature has 6 feats and looses 3, I number them 1-6 and then roll a d6 (discounting repeats) 3 times and remove those feats).

You can pull off some fun tricks with Embrace/Shun and psychic reformation though. It's especially useful for classes with limited spells known lists like Sorcerers or psions. You make a Simulacrum/Ice Assassin and then Psychic Reformation it; now you get to repick all it's skill points, spells known, and feats from level 1 to X.

One real fun trick as a Psion is to have Psychic Reformation as one of your powers known, use a scroll of Ice Assassin to produce a copy of yourself, and then have it Psychic Reformation it's self to do a full level 1-20 rebuild (1,000 XP). The IA selects powers you don't know and spends every feat on Expanded Knowledge (make sure one of the powers it ends up knowing is Psychic Chirurgery). It then uses Psychic Chirurgery to teach you 53 levels worth of powers that you didn't previously know (it would only have 53,000 XP to burn to go from level 20 to level 17). Repeat this process multiple times and you can pick up every single power in the game as a power known.

[KillianHawkeye]

You need a biological sample from the creature you want to replicate.

Sorry. I cannot begin to explain how I forgot about that. :smallsigh:

[Wookie-ranger]

One real fun trick as a Psion is to have Psychic Reformation as one of your powers known, use a scroll of Ice Assassin to produce a copy of yourself, and then have it Psychic Reformation it's self to do a full level 1-20 rebuild (1,000 XP). The IA selects powers you don't know and spends every feat on Expanded Knowledge (make sure one of the powers it ends up knowing is Psychic Chirurgery). It then uses Psychic Chirurgery to teach you 53 levels worth of powers that you didn't previously know (it would only have 53,000 XP to burn to go from level 20 to level 17). Repeat this process multiple times and you can pick up every single power in the game as a power known.

First of Awesome! this is the kind of Cheese i am looking for! Tippy=Super Win

Specking of 'Ice Assassin'. the creature the spell creates is programed to kill the original. OK, simple and easy to understand.
but i have two problems with that.
1. what is it succeeds? does it melt away as it has no purpose? does it simply stand there until someone comes by that destroys it? does it 'take over' the life of the original (that is now dead)?
2. the caster is in "absolute control" of the caster. well, what if the caster is the original? what program has priority, killing the original or obeying the command of the caster?
2a. you could read RAW that the "absolute control" only exists 1 mile from the caster.does that mean that 2 miles away the Ice Assassin would plan to kill you, or that it would cast very long range spells?

[Darrin]

You need a biological sample from the creature you want to replicate.

You can get around that with Mirror Mephit shenanigans (from Expedition to the Demonweb Pits). Use planar binding and have it create a simulacrum of an efreet. From there you can wish up a scroll of ice assassin or whatever else you might need.

[Emperor Tippy]

You can get around that with Mirror Mephit shenanigans (from Expedition to the Demonweb Pits). Use planar binding and have it create a simulacrum of an efreet. From there you can wish up a scroll of ice assassin or whatever else you might need.

That would fall under the category of tricks used to avoid the need for a material component. I was specifically talking about if the DM prevents you from doing things like that.

[Darrin]

That would fall under the category of tricks used to avoid the need for a material component. I was specifically talking about if the DM prevents you from doing things like that.

Ah. What about Chaos Flask -> material component, such as solar blood? Would that still be a trick, or just another way to get a DMG thrown at your head at high velocity?

[Emperor Tippy]

I would rule that a Solar's blood (or the blood of anything with SLA or SU abilities) is naturally magical, thus a Chaos Flask can't create it.