Beguiler v. Dread necromancer

[Kaeso]

Even though both classes are in the same tier, the tier list claims that the beguiler is the most versatile of the three so called "list" casters. I can understand why the warmage is at the bottom of the barrel, there are only so many ways you need to damage your foes, but I don't understand why the Beguiler is ranked higher than the Dread Necromancer. The Beguiler is a good skillmonkey (even though surpassed in that field by the Bardic Knack bard and the Factotum) but his spells, while versatile, can easily be blocked by some foes. Enchantment is considered the weakest magic school because so many things are immune to it and there are quite some foes with immunity to illusion as well.

By contrast, there are few things immune to what a Dread Necromancer can do. A dread necromancer can do damage (no save, no resistance) by touch, use said damage to heal himself (tomb tainted soul) and summon/create an army of undead. I just want you all to take a moment and consider how versatile an army of potentially undead versions of every single monster in the game can be. That annoying troll you were fighting a few minutes ago? Turn it into a zombie, throw it at your foes, watch the fun. That dragon you just slew? Enjoy your flying mount. etc. etc.

My point is that IMHO the Dread Necromancer is underrated when it comes to its versatility while the Beguiler is overrated. Do you guys think there's any truth to this, or am I overlooking something?

[RMS Oceanic]

I always thought the Beguiler's access to illusions rendered him more versitile than the DN, especially if he uses advanced learning to pick up Shadow Evocation/Conjuration.

[Malachei]

The beguiler's spell list is a bit wider. Also, a lot more skills, including UMD, which alone impacts versatility somewhat.

[Lapak]

That annoying troll you were fighting a few minutes ago? Turn it into a zombie, throw it at your foes, watch the fun. That dragon you just slew? Enjoy your flying mount. etc. etc.Wouldn't a zombie troll lose its Regeneration with its Constitution score? Much like the Beguiler's problem with illusion/enchantment-immune foes, a DN's army of undead relies heavily on having quality corpses that also convert to undead well for a good chunk of his power. In fact, the list of creatures that can't be animated and/or make poor undead overlaps heavily with the list of creatures that give Beguilers problems (constructs, for example.)

[Pilo]

Tier by themself don't rank the power of a class. They rank the number of way a class can broke a game and the versatillity of the class.

Even if the undeads can make a lot of things, they are hardly socialy acceptable so they have to stay outside of many places.

Furthermore, with UMD, a beguiler can also make undeads or heal himself (DD20 for using a minor vigor/ animate undead magic stick).

[Kaeso]

Wouldn't a zombie troll lose its Regeneration with its Constitution score? Much like the Beguiler's problem with illusion/enchantment-immune foes, a DN's army of undead relies heavily on having quality corpses that also convert to undead well for a good chunk of his power. In fact, the list of creatures that can't be animated and/or make poor undead overlaps heavily with the list of creatures that give Beguilers problems (constructs, for example.)

True, but even if a monster can't be converted to an undead creature, it's neither immune to most of the DNs spell list nor to the stabbings of a horde of zombie swordsmen.

[NeoSeraphi]

I don't think feats are taken into account when determining tiers, simply the power behind the class by itself. So by that logic, you can't use Tomb-Tainted Soul to claim that the dread necro is a healer, at least not until level 20. That strikes a heavy blow against his versatility.

There are a few enemies who are immune to "necromantic effects", including all constructs and undead. So blanket immunity to decay rays and vampiric touch and the like also exists.

As for an entire army, that is indeed pretty damn useful. Even if the beguiler gets a whole slew of undead up with a wand of animate dead, the dread necro will have a significantly larger amount of Hit Dice to command.

But illusions are pretty damn useful in the right hands. Illusions can be used to infiltrate, to distract, to decoy, to intimidate, to set traps, and I'm sure there are many many other uses as well. Invisibility is also extremely useful, and the UMD skill just grants the beguiler access to so many other spells that the dread necro just doesn't get, including heal and resurrection.

[Morph Bark]

My point is that IMHO the Dread Necromancer is underrated when it comes to its versatility while the Beguiler is overrated. Do you guys think there's any truth to this, or am I overlooking something?

Personally, I agree. Beguiler is more of a skillmonkey than a caster feels like to me, and as a caster it is most useful out of combat, with exception of a handful of spells. Shadow Evocation/Conjuration helps incredibly though, making it further versatile.

Dread Necromancer is less versatile, but can be much stronger, especially from the point where it can create very strong undead hordes. With its save-or spells though, it targets mainly Fort rather than Will, which tends to be slightly higher amongst monsters due to high Con.

[Malachei]

My point is that IMHO the Dread Necromancer is underrated when it comes to its versatility while the Beguiler is overrated. Do you guys think there's any truth to this, or am I overlooking something?

I think the DN deserves a bit more love. But the beguiler is very valid, and many enemies have low will saves. If you take a close look at the beguiler's spell list, I think you will agree there are some gems. Also, with UMD, the beguiler can trigger Runestaffs and other items to overcome his narrow spell list.

[Yorrin]

I don't think feats are taken into account when determining tiers

I think certain exceptions could be made here. In the same way that all Druids are assumed to take Natural Spell, all Dread Necros are expected to take Tomb-Tainted Soul early on (or otherwise gain the ability to heal with negative energy).

I agree with the opening poster that Dread Necros are underrated and Beguilers are overrated, but I think that they are much closer to equal than anything. In the hands of someone with a mind well suited to using illusion spells a Beguiler is a force to be reckoned with, and by the same token someone with a mind for Necromancy will find the DN to be a powerful choice. Both are excellent at what they do, and for players predisposed to the play style they support both are equally powerful.

[Emperor Tippy]

Necromancy is the weakest school, not enchantment.

That army you raised? My enchantment specialist can do it better with just Mind Rape. Leaving aside gate-rape, unconscious creatures are automatically willing. Knock an enemy into the negatives and if he is unconscious you can whack him with a single Mind Rape, have the cleric heal him up, and have a perfectly loyal minion with no HD cap.

Disjunction also rips off all of the defenses against enchantment that an enemy would normally have. Disjunction + Quickened Feeblemind is murder on casters. You can be looking at having to make a DC 30 save without any of your buffs and without magic items (and with a -4 penalty to the save), it can easily be pushed to the point where you will only make your save against Feeblemind on a natural 20.

Necromancy is nice but it's weaker than Enchantment (and can be stopped just as easily).

---
All that being said, Dread Necromancers are decent and can be quite fun to play.

[Kaeso]

Necromancy is the weakest school, not enchantment.

That army you raised? My enchantment specialist can do it better with just Mind Rape. Leaving aside gate-rape, unconscious creatures are automatically willing. Knock an enemy into the negatives and if he is unconscious you can whack him with a single Mind Rape, have the cleric heal him up, and have a perfectly loyal minion with no HD cap.

Disjunction also rips off all of the defenses against enchantment that an enemy would normally have. Disjunction + Quickened Feeblemind is murder on casters. You can be looking at having to make a DC 30 save without any of your buffs and without magic items (and with a -4 penalty to the save), it can easily be pushed to the point where you will only make your save against Feeblemind on a natural 20.

Necromancy is nice but it's weaker than Enchantment (and can be stopped just as easily).

---
All that being said, Dread Necromancers are decent and can be quite fun to play.

Emphasis mine.
These are all spells a Beguiler doesn't have, making your point moot.
EDIT: Also, disjunction has the nasty side effect of making your prospective phat lewt worthless and mundane.

[Emperor Tippy]

Emphasis mine.
These are all spells a Beguiler doesn't have, making your point moot.

No, I wasn't talking about the Beguiler. You said that enchantment was the weakest school, that is what I disputed.

I never said that the Beguiler wasn't weaker than the Dread Necromancer, I never said that he wasn't stronger either.

Beguiler (and to a lesser extent Dread Necromancer) are classes who's power is very dependent on the DM and setting. A Beguiler can easily end up effectively running several entire organizations without a problem. Between their skills and spells they make exceptional spies and politicians.

I've played in a campaign where the BBEG of the entire world, the person running every major organization and nation on the planet, was a level 20 Beguiler. And that can be done relatively easily, if the DM let's you really play the social game.

Dread Necromancers are somewhat the same in that their power is dependent upon which corpses you can get and how the setting views undead.

[Malachei]

unconscious creatures are automatically willing.

Unconscious creatures are automatically willing for spells which creature a willing target.

The rules on being unconscious say nothing about unconscious / helpless creatures getting no saves.


Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you’re flat-footed or it isn’t your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.

This is a paragraph, and as such, IMO, it is to be read in context.

Also, see the discussion you've participated in here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169543).

[Emperor Tippy]

Unconscious creatures are automatically willing for spells which creature a willing target.

The rules on being unconscious say nothing about unconscious / helpless creatures getting no saves.



This is a paragraph, and as such, IMO, it is to be read in context.

Also, see the discussion you've participated in here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169543).

And my opinion on what the rules say hasn't changed. If you are unconscious you don't get to save (note that unconscious is distinct from asleep in D&D).

[Person_Man]

I think they have a very similar amount of resources, which is what the Tier is all about. I would say that from a practical standpoint, the Beguiler probably ends up being able to use his resources more freely, because the Dread Necromancer relies so heavily on undead, and undead are generally not tolerating in civilized areas. You can't just walk into a city with a half dozen skeletons following you around.

[Duke of URL]

I think they have a very similar amount of resources, which is what the Tier is all about. I would say that from a practical standpoint, the Beguiler probably ends up being able to use his resources more freely, because the Dread Necromancer relies so heavily on undead, and undead are generally not tolerating in civilized areas. You can't just walk into a city with a half dozen skeletons following you around.

That's what Bluff and Disguise are for. Besides, if you just want to have a horde of weak minions in town, you either keep them in a portable hole for when you need them, or you just drop a Fell Animated cloudkill for near-instant zombies.

[Venger]

initially, I thought you meant a beguiler fighting a DN. in that case, the beguiler is frankly screwed, since the DN's undead army is immune to almost every spell on his list, whereas the beguiler with his d6 HD is rather vulnerable to being punched in the face by an owlbear skeleton or what have you.

but on which is more versatile/playable, I can speak from personal experience, having played a beguiler with my brother's DN in a party of 2.

they are both pretty great classes, honestly, and do a fantastic job of covering each others' backs. while there are a bunch of types that are immune to the beguiler's largely mind affecting list, undead at least are picked up by the DN.

we played a short game where we had to clear out the beguiler's home, a cave, that had been taken over by a hill giant. honestly, we complemented each other really well. when it was info gathering time, the DN made some pretty nice social checks due to his huge CHA, and the beguiler did too due to his skills and lots of int. when we go there the beguiler used ghost sound at the mouth of the cave to sound like a bigger hill giant and laid down a bank of fog on the ground to blind the giant. he buffed the two of them with spider climb and invisibility and they took to the ceiling to snipe at the hill giant with spells. beguiler spammed whelm and DN hit him with chill of the grave (deathbound domain via arcane disciple) and a bunch of inflict moderates via spectral hand to bring him down. we used a reduce person-type item and gave him a stern talking to and sent him on his way

beguiler helped with info gathering, tactical maneuvering, and battlefield control, but couldn't deal any damage. DN was able to deal a fair amount of damage but wouldn't have had a good vantage point without spider climb, which he doesn't have on his list.

honestly, if you ignore UMD, the classes are on roughly equal footing. INT is ust a better primary stat than CHA is, since it gives more skill points, but with a high enough root CHA score, you can make all the fun social rolls well enough anyway. with UMD, the balance tips a little toward the beguiler since his restricted spell list no longer matters at all since he can use anyone's list. going on the class's own merits though, I'd say they're on par versatilitywise, but on combat power alone, the edge definitely goes to the DN. his undead get ridiculous after level 8, and he gets a free lich apotheosis, so that's cool, and it does kind of beat auto-overcoming SR if you catch your enemy flatooted (which is still a pretty great capstone)

if advanced learnings are on the table, while the beguiler can use his last AL to take mindrape (assuming versatile spellcaster, which both these classes should always take) the DN could use his to take astral projection.

I like both these classes as being some of the only ones in the game that are worth taking to 20 straight.

[Chronos]

Everyone always talks about how so many monsters are immune to the Beguiler's spells, but it's just not true. To his enchantment spells, sure, but very few things are immune to illusions, and in fact the creatures that are immune to enchantments are often more susceptible to illusions: Mindless creatures won't ask inconvenient questions like "Where'd that solid wall just mysteriously appear from?", which might lead thinking things to suspect illusions.

[SSGoW]

Well the way I see it playing out is...

Beguiler does something to tick off the Dread Necromancer

DN challenges B to a fight to the (un)death. Said beguiler uses a wand of disguise self and glibness to walk right up to the DN.

Beguiler then convinces DN that he is someone else and that he wants to help the DN kill the Beguiler that pissed him off.

Beguiler then controls the DN with subtle puppet strings :)

Yeah the Beguiler isn't going to use brute force, DN is brute force by numbers... The Beguiler is a subtle infiltrator.

[Spuddles]

Beguiler can make a better army, IMO, out of mind controlled, diplomacied, and bluffed minions than the Dread Necro can make. Dread Necro needs lots of black onyx and good corpses. As long as an enemy isn't hard immune to mind control, the Beguiler gets a new friend.

[Person_Man]

That's what Bluff and Disguise are for. Besides, if you just want to have a horde of weak minions in town, you either keep them in a portable hole for when you need them, or you just drop a Fell Animated cloudkill for near-instant zombies.

That's true. But Paladins and plenty of others can Detect Evil fairly easily, plenty of high level NPCs will have ranks in Spot or Sense Motive, and you can't exactly whip out your Portable-Hole-o-Undead while defending the innocent Good Princess or in the middle of a bar fight. (Though it would be hilarious if you did).

You still have access to all of your Dread Necromancer resources, but you're still somewhat constrained by the laws and morals of Lawful and Good societies, to the degree that you spend time in them, and/or care about what they might think.

[Venger]

Everyone always talks about how so many monsters are immune to the Beguiler's spells, but it's just not true. To his enchantment spells, sure, but very few things are immune to illusions, and in fact the creatures that are immune to enchantments are often more susceptible to illusions: Mindless creatures won't ask inconvenient questions like "Where'd that solid wall just mysteriously appear from?", which might lead thinking things to suspect illusions.
Well, I am inclined to agree with you. I observed this in my career as a beguiler. While you're quite right that zombies and stuff are quite susceptible to failing their saves against silent images due to their low wisdom, it's important to keep in mind that undead have good will saves, so even the mindless ones will have a better chance against illusions than, say, an animal or something.

beguilers have a hard time with anything that:
has tremorsense/blindsight/lifesense/scent/any sort of nonvisual methods of perception (this can be mitigated with major image. against, say, oozes, for example, which essentially autofail will saves, but that uses up your 3rds pretty quickly)

is immune to mind affecting affects (constructs, oozes, plants, undead, vermin, swarms)

has true seeing or a similar effect (devils, demons)

enemies with good will saves (aberrations, undead, enemies with class levels that have good saves, such as casters, or just really powerful monsters with good stats)

this last one is probably the biggest problem for beguilers because it's so difficult to find a way around. with a caster whose spell list you customise, such as a sorcerer or wizard, you pick some spells that don't have saves, like enervation for when you run into a balor or something with really good numbers that would be able to laugh off your save DCs. beguilers largely don't have this option (speaking strictly off their list as-is. as wonderful as shadow evoc/conj are, they allow an extra save on top of whatever spell you're casting, and many evoc/conj spells have saves) and just as DN's list kind of forces you to target a monster's fort save, beguiler kind of forces you to target a monster's will save.

while only abberation and undead have good will saves out of the box, you sometimes fight monsters with enough HD to not care, a good enough wisdom to mitigate the problem, or class levels to boost saves.


Well the way I see it playing out is...

Beguiler does something to tick off the Dread Necromancer

DN challenges B to a fight to the (un)death. Said beguiler uses a wand of disguise self and glibness to walk right up to the DN.

Beguiler then convinces DN that he is someone else and that he wants to help the DN kill the Beguiler that pissed him off.

Beguiler then controls the DN with subtle puppet strings :)

Yeah the Beguiler isn't going to use brute force, DN is brute force by numbers... The Beguiler is a subtle infiltrator.
beguiler doesn't need a wand, it's on his list.

other than that, I'd tend to agree. my hypothetical was assuming an "arena" style match, as most D&D "who would win?" class fights are, but you do have a point.


Beguiler can make a better army, IMO, out of mind controlled, diplomacied, and bluffed minions than the Dread Necro can make. Dread Necro needs lots of black onyx and good corpses. As long as an enemy isn't hard immune to mind control, the Beguiler gets a new friend. plus your minions can have class levels (spells, etc) something the DN can't match.

[Numinous]

Everyone always talks about how so many monsters are immune to the Beguiler's spells, but it's just not true. To his enchantment spells, sure, but very few things are immune to illusions, and in fact the creatures that are immune to enchantments are often more susceptible to illusions: Mindless creatures won't ask inconvenient questions like "Where'd that solid wall just mysteriously appear from?", which might lead thinking things to suspect illusions.

True, but a problem is that level-appropriate mindless undead often have huge numbers of HD, which directly leads to high Will saves.

Having played a beguiler vs some gargantuan zombies I know this from direct unfortunate experience :smallfrown:

[SSGoW]

Well, I am inclined to agree with you. I observed this in my career as a beguiler. While you're quite right that zombies and stuff are quite susceptible to failing their saves against silent images due to their low wisdom, it's important to keep in mind that undead have good will saves, so even the mindless ones will have a better chance against illusions than, say, an animal or something.

beguilers have a hard time with anything that:
has tremorsense/blindsight/lifesense/scent/any sort of nonvisual methods of perception (this can be mitigated with major image. against, say, oozes, for example, which essentially autofail will saves, but that uses up your 3rds pretty quickly)

is immune to mind affecting affects (constructs, oozes, plants, undead, vermin, swarms)

has true seeing or a similar effect (devils, demons)

enemies with good will saves (aberrations, undead, enemies with class levels that have good saves, such as casters, or just really powerful monsters with good stats)

this last one is probably the biggest problem for beguilers because it's so difficult to find a way around. with a caster whose spell list you customise, such as a sorcerer or wizard, you pick some spells that don't have saves, like enervation for when you run into a balor or something with really good numbers that would be able to laugh off your save DCs. beguilers largely don't have this option (speaking strictly off their list as-is. as wonderful as shadow evoc/conj are, they allow an extra save on top of whatever spell you're casting, and many evoc/conj spells have saves) and just as DN's list kind of forces you to target a monster's fort save, beguiler kind of forces you to target a monster's will save.

while only abberation and undead have good will saves out of the box, you sometimes fight monsters with enough HD to not care, a good enough wisdom to mitigate the problem, or class levels to boost saves.


beguiler doesn't need a wand, it's on his list.

other than that, I'd tend to agree. my hypothetical was assuming an "arena" style match, as most D&D "who would win?" class fights are, but you do have a point.

plus your minions can have class levels (spells, etc) something the DN can't match.

It has been a while since I've seen the beguiler's spell list.

I tend to think of battles as how it would go down in a game, on being the "pc" and other being the BBEG or something simular. There is a Swordsage vs Fighter thread and I just don't see a swordsage not sneaking up on the fighter (escaping first if the battle started as a bar room brawl) and getting the first hit in.

Though in terms of who I want in my party a DN or a Beguiler....
Most likely a Beguiler since more often then not I won't need to take things down by sheer numbers.

Of course if you have a Dread Necromancer in the party you remain useful even after death XD, you just don't roleplay anymore -_- (a friend of mine ended up playing some of the undead minions for the DN after his Paladin died and hooooly crap they ended up having great tactics....).

[Amphetryon]

As I recall from some of the early discussions on the Tier list (I think they're still up in Read-Only format on the old BG), there actually were indications that Feats were at least somewhat considered. Tomb-Tainted Soul, for example, is less a Feat for Dread Necromancers than an ACF that they take at 1st level in lieu of a Feat. One of the things that pushed Beguiler's rating up a bit was discussion of how specific Feats - I believe Arcane Disciple was among them - could increase Beguiler's power in ways that weren't open to other list casters, due to which spells were already native to Beguiler's list and Advanced Learning options.

[Bharg]

True, but a problem is that level-appropriate mindless undead often have huge numbers of HD, which directly leads to high Will saves.

Having played a beguiler vs some gargantuan zombies I know this from direct unfortunate experience :smallfrown:

But they don't get saves, because they don't question what they see, rrright?

[Darth Stabber]

evocation is the worst school, not enchantment, not necromancy. Evocation does have a few gems, but the vast bulk of the school is worthless. Enchantment is the most limited school, but the least replicatable by other schools. Necromancy is the 3rd most varied in effects (after conjuration and transmutation), note I said varied not versitile.

Now beguiler has illusion as well, which gives him all sorts of other effects, but every spell of his thar offers a save is will. DN has wills and forts. And all of that pushes things in the favor of DN until UMD is taken into consideration. UMD is considered the best skill for a reason, and this gives you access to anything your spell list doesn't, so long as the spell isn't too dependant on caster level or offers a save.

[TheGeckoKing]

And all of that pushes things in the favor of DN until UMD is taken into consideration. UMD is considered the best skill for a reason, and this gives you access to anything your spell list doesn't, so long as the spell isn't too dependant on caster level or offers a save.

And one feat later (Apprentice (Spellcaster)), the Cha based DN is flicking fingers of the central variety at the Beguiler's UMD shenanigans*. And the DN isn't really feat-strapped, because unless you're going for a build that needs lots of feats all a DN needs is Tomb Tainted Soul and maybe Corpsecrafter at 9th.
*OK, the DN is a bit short on skill points, but that's balanced by the fact that as a skillmonkey, the Beguiler has multiple skills to advance, while the DN will have Concentration, UMD and Know: Religion as his main concerns.

[Darth Stabber]

*OK, the DN is a bit short on skill points, but that's balanced by the fact that as a skillmonkey, the Beguiler has multiple skills to advance, while the DN will have Concentration, UMD and Know: Religion as his main concerns.

I don't know if you have played a DN or not, he has intimidate on his list, a high charisma, and a menagerie of fear effects. Intimidate IS second priority (after concentration, before even spellcraft). So with concentration, intimidate, spellcraft, and know(religion), that's already a 12 into int as a human, more if your not. DN has few skill points and several urgent priorities. Getting a cross class skill in there is rough, especially since they already want 5ranks in bluff and 1 in ride.

And as far as feats go, tts, corpse crafter, imperious command, a couple metamagic, and any PRC reqs.

[Venger]

But they don't get saves, because they don't question what they see, rrright?

you are mistaken. just because they are mindless does not mean that they are not entitled to a will save against, say, a silent image of a wall in front of them. they still get a save, they just might not react the same way as a living enemy.

an example from my experience in one of the games where I played my beguiler:

my partner, a swashbuckler and I were fighting with some zombies as usual (no, we didn't stay in this game very long) and I threw up a silent image of a dire lion with a ghost sound for the roar in the next round. zombies failed their saves, but kept advancing anyway since they don't care about being torn to shreds since when you encounter random uncontrolled zombies, you're no longer playing D&D, but a sidescrolling beatemup game. I instead threw up a wall with silent image and vaulted over it with expeditious retreat (though I didn't need to obviously) to keep up the illusion. they failed their save and bought it, letting me and the rapier wielding swashbuckler run away.

[Bharg]

*ding*

No, I thought they wouldn't get a save the same way maybe Thog wouldn't get a save against an illusion.

Isn't the point of illusions that you first have to consciously question if they are real before you can see through them? How does Will (disbelief) work?

[Amphetryon]

No, I thought they wouldn't get a save the same way maybe Thog wouldn't get a save against an illusion.

Isn't the point of illusions that you first have to consciously question if they are real before you can see through them? How does Will (disbelief) work?

Here we see why the perceived power of the Illusion school is so variable. More than any other school of magic, the player(s) and the DM really have to be on the same page regarding how Illusions are adjudicated and what they can/cannot do. At the right table, Illusionists are nigh unto gods; at the wrong table, a majority of their (non-Shadow) spells just get ignored by the enemy.

[Varil]

Most illusions require you to interact with them to get a save, so I guess it'd depend on the nature of the illusion and the orders of the undead.

If they were told to "kill everything they see", putting up an illusionary wall might make them completely forget about you, with no attempts to interact with said wall.

If the orders are instead "pursue and kill anything you see", putting up a wall might just make them try and break through it, and attempts to do so would trigger a save to disbelieve.

But mindless creatures wouldn't think to test the wall to determine whether or not it is an illusion, the way a thinking creature might. Then again, how many thinking creatures would question the wall? In a world with spells like Wall of Stone, seeing a spellcaster generate a solid wall out of nowhere is probably par for the course.

[Madara]

Beguiler can make a better army, IMO, out of mind controlled, diplomacied, and bluffed minions than the Dread Necro can make. Dread Necro needs lots of black onyx and good corpses. As long as an enemy isn't hard immune to mind control,(excluding those with good enough saves who will make the Beguiler use up his spells) the Beguiler gets a new friend.

Actually, there are many low-price options to getting any corpse you want by RAW without fighting it. And most DNs can get their Animate Dead to be free.

How many do you think you'll have mind controlled at one time? And diplomacy makes them you're friend, but they won't do suicidal things for you. If you get them to helpful, sure, but they'd still be an NPC and you don't get to control them.

I think you're underestimating the DN's undead army. At 11th level, I could have 242HD of undead under my control. Each one of them, because of desecrate+corpsecrafter+undead mastery, has 6 extra hp at each level, and 4 extra strength and dex. That means the storm giant I just animated(only 19HD, so I could have about 12 of them) has 228hp and 43 strength. The fact is, at a higher level, animating makes many monsters stronger than they were.


plus your minions can have class levels (spells, etc) something the DN can't match.

Awaken undead would like to talk to you :smallsmile: Plus DNs get to pick the skeleton's feats, so you aren't stuck with whatever it came with. And of course we're all forgetting about his rebuke undead, which can start the wrightpocolypse or chain of shadows.

[Bharg]

*dong*

Would it also be an invisible army of frost giants?


Here we see why the perceived power of the Illusion school is so variable. More than any other school of magic, the player(s) and the DM really have to be on the same page regarding how Illusions are adjudicated and what they can/cannot do. At the right table, Illusionists are nigh unto gods; at the wrong table, a majority of their (non-Shadow) spells just get ignored by the enemy.

I have no idea if my view is correct, though.

The illusion spells don't really limit what you do with them...

I hope this is not going off topic, but...

How does will (disbelief) work?
What happens if someone recognises an illusion. Does the illusion actually disappear for the person that made the check, does it disappear for everyone or doesn't it disappear at all, so it still block the sight?

Also will people be able to identify that the spell I am casting mid-battle is not real fire wall spell, but an illusion just by watching the way it is casted without making a check?
Do all casters cast all spell the same way?
Will they notice that I casted silent image (lvl. 1) instead of darkness (lvl. 2)? And if they do, is it going to be of any help to them?
Am I even able to turn stuff invisible indefinitely with a silent image?

[Bharg]

Oops, double post.

[Chronos]

A disbelieved illusion is still visible as a vague outline, but it's transparent and doesn't block line of sight or line of effect.

And sure, intelligent creatures will know that mages can magically conjure solid walls, but they'll also know that mages can magically make illusionary walls. It wouldn't be unreasonable for an intelligent creature, on seeing a wall suddenly appear, to try to throw a rock at it, or brush it with their fingertips, or the like, to see which it is. But a zombie isn't going to try that.

[Madara]

It doesn't matter if you can turn them invisible, if you only control 2. and they have +14 will saves. Good luck with that.

[Darth Stabber]

The effects of a successful spellcraft roll on an illusion being cast are not outlined, personally I would rule that it is considered interaction for the purposes of saves, and give them a +2 circumstance on the subsequent will save. I'm tempted to rul that it counds as an automatically passed save against the effect, but that nerfs illusion pretty hard, when half the spells are negated by a skill check, and the skill in question is considered default for half the classes in the game.

[Doxkid]

Well the way I see it playing out is...

Beguiler does something to tick off the Dread Necromancer

DN challenges B to a fight to the (un)death. Said beguiler uses a wand of disguise self and glibness to walk right up to the DN.

Beguiler then convinces DN that he is someone else and that he wants to help the DN kill the Beguiler that pissed him off.

Beguiler then controls the DN with subtle puppet strings :)

Yeah the Beguiler isn't going to use brute force, DN is brute force by numbers... The Beguiler is a subtle infiltrator.

This is not quite fair. There are several likely results and paths per each stage of the interaction:

DN challenges B to a fight. Why? Too many options to care about why, unless it’s for something that would make outright murdering the Beguiler legal or tolerably ignorable by the law.

Option 1: The Dread Necro immediately tries to Enervation/Phantasmal Killer/fear/Black tentacle/or some other spell at the Beguiler. Say what you will about being stereotypically evil, having the moral option of just killing someone is liberating; of course paladins, churches and the Law may have a few problems with that as I mentioned in passing earlier.

O1, Consequences 1: The beguiler has deathward at the time and a good majority of the Dread Necro’s spells will not work, allowing the beguiler to escape, plot, etc. While he COULD try to pit his enchantments and illusions against the Dread Necro, he probably won’t win a straight fight, especially against an enchantment immune DN. Since he is not dead, he wins for now.

O1, C2: The beguiler DOESN’T have deathward at the time, or is hit by a non-negative energy based spell

O1, C2, Result1: a dead or crippled Beguiler who is later reanimated to be kept as a pet skill monkey.

O1, C2, R2: The Beguiler dodges the ray, makes his save, or what have you. He should, and probably will, run for his life, possibly while summoning the authorities to deal with the DN. Since he is not dead, he wins for now.

O2: the DN waits a while to have his revenge. Months, years, centuries…to an undead caster, time is almost meaningless.
O2, C1: The Beguiler dies of old age. This is kind of a win for both of them, since the beguiler got to live out his life without a DN popping up and murdering him, while the DN gets a new pet Beguiler with very good mental stats and powerful abilities. Yay compromise!

O2, C2: The DN sends in a small army of undead to kill the beguiler and destroy everything he loves; typically villainy that starts D&D plots actually. One must wonder how so many beguilers piss off their Dread Necro peers since they operate in completely different parts of magical study…

O2, C2, R1: The Beguiler destroys every undead sent after him, then hides his existence. Well, to be more accurate, the beguiler has someone else destroy the undead and makes a few other people hide his existence, but it still happened and the beguiler still won.

O2, C2, R2: The beguiler is caught with his pants down; not enough allies between him and the undead, not enough spells to do what needs to be done, not enough awareness of his surroundings to realize that there are 10 Shadows and 10 Wraiths waiting for a free surprise round inside of a random wall. The Necro doesn’t even need to control all of the Shadows/Wraiths, so he probably won’t notice these specific ones taking up slots in his turning/Commanding pool.

O3: The two start campaigns against the other. Nations of people unknowingly working to rid the world of the Necromancer, legions of undead whose sole purpose is destruction of the beguiler...Good stuff. Of course, this could actually be the end result of something stated above, but the beguiler won a round already if he made it to this point.

O3, C1: One of the two manages to get a significant spellcaster advantage. The DN gets the backing of a Lich, finds a Mummified Cleric who is sympathetic to his plight, makes an old enemy a reanimated ally… Or, on the opposite side, the Beguiler works his way up in status until he has a nation’s court of mages behind him, finds a lone caster who he manipulates, or sweet talks his way into the protection of an Outsider of some sort.

O3, C1, R1: The other side is brutally and viciously annihilated.

O3, C1, R1: The other side is viciously and overwhelmingly dominated. The beguiler has a pet necromancer now, or the Necromancer has a pet beguiler.

O3, C2: Either the beguiler or Necromancer mess up and lose the backing of their allies. Significant losses, massive drains on resources, a miffed king...something went wrong.

O3, C2, R1: The person who lost allies disappears. The Necro chooses to cut his losses and bails out of the fight, the beguiler slips away and works even more subtly (controlling the people who influence the people who work beside the people who regulate the people who know things about how to control people who are important to a last group of people who have never met 99% of the rest of the people I just described and, to a casual observer, seem to just be a janitor.)

O3, C3: One manages to significantly infiltrate the other’s network of minions. A DN controlled vampire slips into the Beguiler’s Book Club, a necromancer who talked to the beguiler starts secretly commanding or freeing undead…

O3, C3, R1: Nope. We’ve gone too deep. It’s time to Jack Out, wake up, or what have you.

[Morph Bark]

If both ended up backed up by nations, it would probably only be a matter of time before someone on the Beguiler's side figures "hey, if only he dies, the rest of us won't have to and end up reanimated" and tries to kill him for "the greater good". :smalltongue:

Also, +1 for MMBN reference.

[Doxkid]

Well, in straight “What should I do today? Oh, right. EVERYTHING.” versatility, the Beguiler wins. It possesses a strong skill list (including UMD), is Int based and has access to a very large range of spells/tricks/etc. The dread necromancer is more limited, being innately focused on minions, necromancy, survival and negative energy.

Anything the Dread necromancer does to improve its variety can probably be done by the Beguiler as well. That said, their roles are fairly different and they are both rather good at what they do.

Either functions as a party face, can take on a few of a caster’s main roles in a party or work through stealth. Beguilers, however, make superior spies and skill-monkeys, able get away with murder while talking to the victim’s mother. The Beguiler will probably even get invited back for dinner, if he doesn’t make it all the way up to ‘weekly tea parties’.

DNs, on the other hand, are pretty much walking death. A DN will survive situations that would and should kill most beings, will gain more power every time they slay an enemy and, if you take your eyes off them for a short while, can get ahold of a decent army very rapidly.

DNs are better mercenaries than permanently employed allies, especially since most nations can’t afford the PR problems of employing a necromancer and legions of undead. If you send one to wipe out the “Unstoppable army” of another nation, he’ll come back a few days later and say this: “Ya…I slaughtered an army or two while over there, but I couldn’t find an unstoppable one. So, I just took out the whole nation. SOME of those guys had to be part of that army, right? Also, if you need to buy a few hundred Wights, Shadows, Wraiths, Zombies and such...look me up, alright?”

Comparing the two, the Beguiler is more versatile but they are roughly equal in power. Where they don’t overlap…well…they don’t overlap. When you need a Beguiler, a DN usually won’t be ‘good enough’ and the Beguiler, while slightly better at filling a necromancer role, is still not on the same level as a DN when it comes to the DN’s specialty.

Accept no substitutes. Please cast in moderation.

[Madara]

Unlimited Healing.
Crazy mass debuffing.
Some of the best offensive spells.

[Darth Stabber]

What's the best way to reanimate dead spellcasters?

Because that's handy. Dead clerics can rebuke/command/animate more undead, chaining out from there.