Dominions 3

[Kzickas]

I've always been kind of intrested in getting into this game. But on the other hand I've been afraid that if I bought it I'd get overwhelmed with the complexity and never actually play. So I've been messing around with the demo trying to figure out how you'd play as the factions available there.

I get arcosephale, mystics = awesome inbuilt magic diversity and reverse comunions and oreiads with crystal matrixes allow you to add many good self buffs from nature.

Agartha has earthquake which should easily clear out human armies while not affecting their bunches of hitpoints much, but other than that they don't seem to have much going for them. Decent sacred troops for a bless strategy maybe?

Mervani, Kailasa and Atlantis I have no idea about. None of them seem to have any real strenghts.

Anyone here play or want to play dominions? and does anyone know what thsese factions actual strenghts are?

[Mistral]

I've always been kind of intrested in getting into this game. But on the other hand I've been afraid that if I bought it I'd get overwhelmed with the complexity and never actually play. So I've been messing around with the demo trying to figure out how you'd play as the factions available there.

I get arcosephale, mystics = awesome inbuilt magic diversity and reverse comunions and oreiads with crystal matrixes allow you to add many good self buffs from nature.

Agartha has earthquake which should easily clear out human armies while not affecting their bunches of hitpoints much, but other than that they don't seem to have much going for them. Decent sacred troops for a bless strategy maybe?

Mervani, Kailasa and Atlantis I have no idea about. None of them seem to have any real strenghts.

Anyone here play or want to play dominions? and does anyone know what thsese factions actual strenghts are?

I actually love this game, but I've never been much good at it, and I've never played multiplayer. The only MP people I know are really, really good at it, so it'd be like putting a kid against an MVP. I wish the wiki were up, so I could actually look this stuff up to confirm, but I'll just have to go off my memory and the Illwinter forums for this. I'm also pretty sure the demo's a few version's out of date, and I play modded (CBM) in either case as well.

Marverni: Weak, as you say, but not to be discounted entirely. Their troops aren't spectacular, but decent. Their best troops aren't capital-only and they get cheap buildings, which combined make recruitment far faster, and they get the Druids, powerful spellcaster/priests. They also get berserk meleers, which can cut through a lot of trouble, but unfortunately, their units in general tend to be glass cannons. They don't get any tramplers, but that's not unusual. I've never played as them; they're something of the opposite of my usual style of gameplay.

Kailasa: Skirmishers with high movement and cheap costs, but low staying power. Take advantage of massed cheap archers to bombard anything that doesn't carry heavy shields or have high protection, and sacred units can be blessed for additional strength and staying power. Sadly, you don't get very good priests (1H), but it's still good enough for government work, especially if one is made your prophet. Also, I think they get some Astral magic for Mind Hunt shenanigans. I think they also get blood magic, but that might have been their EA or LA counterparts (Bandar Log and Patala, respectively)...LA in general is kind of "Ragnarok" vibey in either case. Finally, conjurations go a long way in giving them something to tank with, even if you don't get independent elephants anywhere.

Atlantis: It is indeed generally considered weak, especially compared to the other two underwater civs (R'yleh and Oceania). With underpowered units that cannot be relied on for anything except meatshields, the pretender becomes far more important, as does the conjuration school of magic. However, they do get the Kings of the Deep for research and general mage strength. Also and unlike Oceania, they have mages with innate Astral casting, which should help as long as you aren't also fighting R'yleh. If the other two underwater civs aren't in the game or if you knock them out early, Atlantis can get even more powerful, since defensively, it's a lot harder for the land-dwellers to attack underwater before late-game spells and artefacts become available.

[psilontech]

I've considered purchasing, but $60 for a six year old game is completely unreasonable. Quarter the price and we'll talk.

[Vauron]

I seem to recall that the monkey nations all get decent national summons to use as SuperCombatants, so there is that for Kailasa.

Agartha, on the other hand, is kinda meh in general. They aren't that good at any of the vital endgame magic paths such as Blood, Death, or Astral. They have some not terrible forging options, but have trouble finding something to put those items on. Due to having many units with at least partial darkvision, they can make better use of Darkness, so long as they either have their pretender cast it, or hope blindly for the ~2.5 chance of an oracle that can forge its way up to D4.

Psilontech, I agree with you wholeheartedly, but don't hold your breath. Sales tend to be 5-10 dollars off the price at most.

If you wish to see people playing the game, there is usually at least one Lets Play of the game going on in the Something Awful Lets Play subforum.

[Kzickas]

I've considered purchasing, but $60 for a six year old game is completely unreasonable. Quarter the price and we'll talk.

The argument that digital distribution (to decrease unit costs) and slashing the price would end up making more money by increasing sales by a bigger factor has been made to the creator before and I think he's always responded that he doesn't believe it. So it's likely to stay that way. It's too bad really, I frequently hear people say they'd buy the game if it just wasn't so expensive

[psilontech]

<The Creator> always responded that he doesn't believe it.

So, the guy who made the game either never took or never passed a basic highschool economics class? Hilarious!

[Vitruviansquid]

He's selling a very niche game for a very hardcore audience. I'm sure slashing the price isn't going to boost sales that much for him.

Kailasa seems to have great thug potential out of the box. Yakshas and Yakshinis have built in Awe and have great buffing potential. Yakshas also get Blade Wind, and the monkey astral summons, which have been commented on previously. All you really need to do is survive the early game despite your sucky monkey troops.

[Knaight]

This is pretty much my favorite game at the moment, so I might be excessively verbose. I also only play with the Conceptual Balance Mod 1.92 installed, so some of this advice may be a bit out of date or only applicable with said mod. That said:

Arco - Arco is mixed. For one thing, their troops are passable, but limited - Myrmidons require high production, but sloth is generally desirable due to the research benefit and points that can go into dominion (and Arco has a wonderful dominion effect). So, that creates two divergent strategies, one of which involves heavy use of myrmidons and chariots in the early game to grab lots of territory quickly, then segues into miniature communions that largely buff armies, one of which involves the use of cardaces based armies in the early game which later become chaff. Either way, there are a few other key elements, and a few neat tricks. On the key elements side, there are Oreiads - these are thugs. They don't look like thugs, but awe, mistform, and shock wave combine in fun and interesting ways. They are also highly effective assassins, and have limited use in communions. These show up more in the slower, cardaces heavy strategy where you'll be leaning on them and have a surplus later, whereas it is the mystic that better holds the myrmidon strategy.

Kailasa - Kailasa is generally pretty weak, but has a few things going for it. First and foremost, it is a hidden bless nation. Take an Earth 9 Nature 6 Imprisoned Cyclops for a pretender. Grab Magic 3 if possible. Research Alteration. Yaksha can cast Blessing, Ironskin, and effectively clear most indies alone. They make armies significantly more dangerous as heavy thugs, and can take some armies on their own, though flying units can do a lot of damage (fear Caelum and Pangea). This gets them into the mid game, at which point Kailasa has two main virtues. One of these is that they have a long list of fantastic national summons, most of which are sacred, one is that they can mass communions with ludicrous amounts of communion slaves, and spam all sorts of fun spells. Paralyze, Soul Slay, Enslave Mind, Master Enslave, these are nice spells.

Atlantis - First things first, Atlantis has some very good troops. They're fully amphibious, and can hold their own in the water with R'hley (which, despite currently playing, I still can't spell). They're outright better than Oceania or Agartha. Secondly, they've got some solid commanders. The Basalt King is a recruitable supercompatant, and a dangerous one at that, though the giant nations are generally more dangerous. So, Atlantis can leverage SCs and armies. As armies start getting mage backed, Atlantis starts getting better at leveraging them. They have Earth, and they have Water, and these are the magic paths that matter for melee armies. Earth insures that the troops have good protection, Water that they are all quickened and that said armies contain various nasty snakes and fish underwater.

Maverni - Their troops are generally terrible, and will not help you expand meaningfully. Fortunately, this is why you have awake supercombatant gods. I'd go with a Prince of Death in most situations, so that there is at least some magic access involved. This should hold things off until their strengths start to shine. Said strengths: boars, and mages. Maverni can summon a lot of boars. They can summon bigger boars that call smaller boars. Basically, your armies should involve lots of boars, trampling everything forever. Then there are mages - astral is universal, meaning communions. Astral-Earth is common. Astral-Earth-Nature is also common. This makes certain spells absolutely critical. Gifts from Heaven can be mass spammed via communions. With a bit more micromanagement, there are also reverse communions - Power of The Spheres, Earth Power, Eagle Eyes, and probably Invulnerability can be placed on a large group of mages. This group can now abuse Gifts From Heaven with actual aim. It's a versatile spell, it's hard to counter (it splats supercombatants in a glorious way, it also clears out troops), and it is one of several options. The others are largely in Thaumaturgy, and mirror the strategy for Kailasa.

Agartha - The fundamental problem with Early Age Agartha is the way it isn't Middle Age Agartha. You don't have umbrals, you don't have numerous and sundry fun statues, and you have to make do with what you have. What is that? Some decent pseudo-giant sacreds that lack the traits that make actual giant sacreds dangerous. Niefel Jarls these aren't. Then there are your oracles. You have E-F, and you have E-D. There are also some national heroes, to push the D aspect a bit further. So, make a bless, take luck, and hope for the best. An E-N bless with a little air allows early expansion, luck gets you into death properly via heroes. Once you're there, climb the death ladder via summons and crafting. You'll also want to site search heavily, because you will be needing earth and fire gems. Research Construction 4 early, then a lot of Conjuration, get to Const 6 eventually and Alt 7 at some point. Enchantment can also be useful, with the usual use of Earth and Water, as in Atlantis. What this gets you, in addition to your armies, are a few summons, and a few items. Specifically: Banes, Bane Lords, Wraith Lords, Trolls, Fire Brands, Dwarven Hammers, Golden Shields, Dwarven Hammers, Charcoal Shields, and Dwarven Hammers. Where things get interesting is late game. This is why your pretender has E-N-A, and has been picking up nature and air sites all game. You want Fairy Queens, followed by Rainbow Armor. You want a small army of Wraith Lords patrolling your dominion, with some cheap Rainbow Armor, Fire/Shadow Brands, and Golden/Charcoal shields. Those outside your dominion get constant Bane Lord harassment, and eventual Tartarian death.

Note that the length of these strategies isn't really correlated to the strength of the nation. Agartha gets a long one because they need it, and of the five Arcocephale is comfortably in the top spot with their ridiculous magic diversity and the sheer capability of the Oreid.

[Dragor]

I've always been interested in the game, but the price and the seemingly steep learning curve always kinda put me off...

[endoperez]

The argument that digital distribution (to decrease unit costs) and slashing the price would end up making more money by increasing sales by a bigger factor has been made to the creator before and I think he's always responded that he doesn't believe it.

I expect that that'd be the publisher company, not developers. The developers recently released a new game that's being sold on Desura, a digital platform.

The publishers made several blog posts about how they think niche markets work, years ago. IIRC, it goes something like this. Most games sell a lot just after release. Then they sell less and less as the competitive games are released. As the worth of these games decreases, compared to newer competitors, the price is decreased. In the the big head, small tail model the tail (the sales after release) are usually only revelant for something like a few months.
This doesn't apply for niche games, which have a constant trickle of new sales for years ("long tail" sales). Even six years after release, the games still sell. Lowering the price would give a short boost in sales, but lower the income received from the constant trickle of sales for the years to come.

[Knaight]

I expect that that'd be the publisher company, not developers. The developers recently released a new game that's being sold on Desura, a digital platform.

The publishers made several blog posts about how they think niche markets work, years ago. IIRC, it goes something like this. Most games sell a lot just after release. Then they sell less and less as the competitive games are released. As the worth of these games decreases, compared to newer competitors, the price is decreased. In the the big head, small tail model the tail (the sales after release) are usually only revelant for something like a few months.

This doesn't apply for niche games, which have a constant trickle of new sales for years ("long tail" sales). Even six years after release, the games still sell. Lowering the price would give a short boost in sales, but lower the income received from the constant trickle of sales for the years to come.

The short version: The publishers have convinced themselves that their audience is inherently tiny, and that the possibility that they've gone and made it tiny by pricing all their games absurdly can be discounted. They're quite likely wrong, but as the Dominions 3 forum has shown, they're also extremely bullheaded.

[Kzickas]

The short version: The publishers have convinced themselves that their audience is inherently tiny, and that the possibility that they've gone and made it tiny by pricing all their games absurdly can be discounted. They're quite likely wrong, but as the Dominions 3 forum has shown, they're also extremely bullheaded.

Honestly I think the user unfriendlynes does as much to limit the audience. Just of the top of my head being able to view national recruitables when chosing nations and when making a pretender, being able to see the stats of summonables and the ability to see what items can be forged and their requirements would be huge improvements. A wider audience is unlikely to want to have to look up information on the internet for the game to even be playable.

Anyway, since there seems to be a lot of people who are interested in the game but don't want/haven't bought it, would anyone be interested in an MP game of the demo?

[Knaight]

Honestly I think the user unfriendlynes does as much to limit the audience. Just of the top of my head being able to view national recruitables when chosing nations and when making a pretender, being able to see the stats of summonables and the ability to see what items can be forged and their requirements would be huge improvements. A wider audience is unlikely to want to have to look up information on the internet for the game to even be playable.

Anyway, since there seems to be a lot of people who are interested in the game but don't want/haven't bought it, would anyone be interested in an MP game of the demo?

You left out the generally terrible UI, but I'd agree on all of those. The fan community has done a fair bit improving them (http://dom3-mod-inspector.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/index.html), however. Sadly, the wiki is currently down and I don't remember where the spell database is, so only the items can be linked.

[Kzickas]

You left out the generally terrible UI, but I'd agree on all of those. The fan community has done a fair bit improving them (http://dom3-mod-inspector.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/index.html), however. Sadly, the wiki is currently down and I don't remember where the spell database is, so only the items can be linked.

That's what I meant by looking things up on the internet. Most people who are used to games that actually care about userfriendlyness wouldn't think to go looking so when it's not in the game you lose a lot of people.

What's so bad about the UI?

Edit: also I think this might be the spell list you wanted
http://wolfsbane.alwaysdata.net/Spells.html

[Vauron]

A demo multiplayer game sounds good. Pity that most of the nations that interest me more aren't options, though. Would like to mess around with LA Marigion, Tir na n'Og, or maybe LA Ulm.

My preference for my nation would be either the monkeys or the greeks. However, my hubris is strong, so if someone else wants those two, I'm willing to let another have first pick.

For game rules, how does 75 magic site frequency and 15 Hall of Famers on Silent Seas sound?


\/\/\/ A few hotkeys to remember:
capital M lets you set monthly rituals
capital Z sends all blood slaves from the commander you are mousing over to the treasury
Ctrl+(a number) when mousing over a commander's orders allows you to quickly give any other commander those same orders by mousing over there list of battle commands and pressing the number in question

[Knaight]

That's what I meant by looking things up on the internet. Most people who are used to games that actually care about userfriendlyness wouldn't think to go looking so when it's not in the game you lose a lot of people.

What's so bad about the UI?

Edit: also I think this might be the spell list you wanted
http://wolfsbane.alwaysdata.net/Spells.html

The main issue with the UI is the lack of automation. Say you're playing LA Ermor, with tons of free chaff and free commanders. You get to assign troops to all of these, and get to give new movement orders to all of them every turn. If you're forging constantly, you get to reforge every turn. Unless you know the hot keys well, the same applies to monthly rituals. So on and so forth. If you aren't playing with CBM, there's also the joy of messing around with huge numbers of gem generators, because they can't be set to automatically put gems in the stash. The Fever Fetish in particular suffers from this, where it wouldn't be a problem if it could be automated to leave commanders once their HP dropped too far, and to put gems away by default. So on and so forth.

Also, take item reassignment - a sensible way of handling it would be to open up a bunch of sets of inventories, then drag and drop.

[Kzickas]

I actually knew that. I was just thinking more in terms of layout and the like when talking UI.

Does path boosters work for sitesearching?

[Vauron]

Path boosters work for essentially everything besides magic duel and the blessing your pretender gives.

So, as an example, you could have a Yaksha forge a thistle mace and give it to the E1N1 witch you hired from a magic site, and than she could be set to cast Haruspex every month.

[Kzickas]

Path boosters work for essentially everything besides magic duel and the blessing your pretender gives.

So, as an example, you could have a Yaksha forge a thistle mace and give it to the E1N1 witch you hired from a magic site, and than she could be set to cast Haruspex every month.

I meant manual site searching. I figured out they work for the site searching spells on my own

[Vauron]

Oh yes. Said witch from my prior example could find E1 sites and up to N2 sites.

[Kzickas]

A demo multiplayer game sounds good. Pity that most of the nations that interest me more aren't options, though. Would like to mess around with LA Marigion, Tir na n'Og, or maybe LA Ulm.

My preference for my nation would be either the monkeys or the greeks. However, my hubris is strong, so if someone else wants those two, I'm willing to let another have first pick.

For game rules, how does 75 magic site frequency and 15 Hall of Famers on Silent Seas sound?


\/\/\/ A few hotkeys to remember:
capital M lets you set monthly rituals
capital Z sends all blood slaves from the commander you are mousing over to the treasury
Ctrl+(a number) when mousing over a commander's orders allows you to quickly give any other commander those same orders by mousing over there list of battle commands and pressing the number in question

I actually managed to totally miss this post until now. Since at least one person's expressed interest I'll make a new thread for it since people are less likely to see the suggestion in the middle of this one. I'd also prefer arcosephale or kailasa, if no one else want's them we can take one each

[Knaight]

It's probably best to keep the game small anyways - 40 turn limits are fairly major constraints. That said, does anybody know if demo and non-demo games can work in multiplayer together? I suspect they can if a non-demo hosts, so I'm up for joining in as Sauromatia.

[Kzickas]

I don't know. we can try

[endoperez]

It's probably best to keep the game small anyways - 40 turn limits are fairly major constraints. That said, does anybody know if demo and non-demo games can work in multiplayer together? I suspect they can if a non-demo hosts, so I'm up for joining in as Sauromatia.

This is all from memory, but...

Demo + full version games should work. The full version guy doesn't have research limits, but can easily follow them. No mods, but custom maps work as long as they don't use map commands added in patches. full version has to be the same as the demo, probably unpatched release version.

If the players want to have a chance of actually finishing the game, an easy victory condition could be added in. For example, 4-6 victory points total required to win; and every capital starts with 1 victory point, with X amount of random ones scattered around the map.

[Kzickas]

Personally I'd prefer if we just played to 40 and we don't have any official victory just try to be in as strong a position at 40 as possible

[Knaight]

That works for me.

[Matar]

I freaking -love- this game. It's a damn shame that it's so absurdly expensive though. I can't think of anyone I know that would ever be willing to pay 60$ for a game like this. Hell, if I didn't luck out by getting a copy for dirt cheap (yay friends!) I'd never have even played it.

I love playing as R'yleh, but I think it's really damn silly how they don't have any nation spells in early and middle ages =/. Wish there was a mod that added more nation specific spells. It's one of the few areas I think Dominions 3 is lacking.

[Shovah]

I'd love to join in on this game (blitz or PBEM? I'd assume for all the length of it that we could get through it quickly enough in one or two sittings?)

I'd like Marverni, unless someone can tell me how to patch back down to 3.00 (my cd is long, long gone) in which case I'd like to give Caelum a run.

[Kzickas]

I'd love to join in on this game (blitz or PBEM? I'd assume for all the length of it that we could get through it quickly enough in one or two sittings?)

I'd like Marverni, unless someone can tell me how to patch back down to 3.00 (my cd is long, long gone) in which case I'd like to give Caelum a run.

Good I was afraid everyone would end up fighting over arco. As for how we'll play, I guess it depends on the players, but PBEM may be the most practical given that people are probably in different time zones etc. What does everyone else think? If not by PBEM we'll probably set of time during a weekend.

I have no idea how you'd get to the right version.

Current interested players (prefered nation):
Me (arco/kailasa)
Vauron (arco/kailasa)
Knaight (sauromatia)
Scotchland (?)
Shovah(Maverni/caelum)

If someone who wants to join using the full game could help me test if it works that would be great.

[Knaight]

Play by email is probably the best idea. There's an automated server (http://www.llamaserver.net/) that works for dominions 3 games. So, lets have everybody update to the latest version, and I'll see about getting the game started.

I'm thinking Giants At Play for the game name, and have no strong preferences regarding specific maps (http://www.llamaserver.net/mapModBrowser.cgi). With that said, a province range from 60-80 (12-14 per person, mid way between small and medium random maps, which is pretty much needed on a demo game) is ideal. That means the obvious options are:
Ossya
Silent Seas (If Scotchland takes a water nation)
Urgaia_Som (My personal favorite provided no water nations)
LandAround
Lazy Days
Five Lands
Small Divide Wraparound

I'd also reccomend grabbing Shahrivar while there. It isn't useful for this particular game, but it is an incredibly beautiful map.

[Vauron]

Can the demo be updated at all? I assumed not.

Edit: Just tried to update the demo. While I haven't checked everything, I do know that no nations seems to have been added, and Maverni hasn't gained any national spells. The only difference I've noted is the addition of a few maps.

Just to note, my first preference is Kailasa, than Arco. So you can have the greeks, Kzickas.

[Kzickas]

Yeah, since it's the demo I'm pretty sure we're stuck with the original version. If those who haven't said what nation they want yet could do so that would be great

[Knaight]

Huh. I'd thought that the demo could be updated. I suppose that just means that everyone who doesn't have it will have to get the original version. Which is a minor delay, and not a big deal.

Also, what are the map preferences for everybody?

[Vauron]

Knaight, when you said that Urgaia_Som was your favorite if no underwater civs were in play, did you mean Urgaia_NI? Because thats the only Urgaia that is at the link you provided.

I personally like Ossya, although LandAround or Urgaia_NI would be fine.

[Mistral]

Knaight, when you said that Urgaia_Som was your favorite if no underwater civs were in play, did you mean Urgaia_NI? Because thats the only Urgaia that is at the link you provided.

I personally like Ossya, although LandAround or Urgaia_NI would be fine.

Urgaia_Som is little over halfway down, give or take. It's just past the Faerun maps and three Alexander variants.

I'd love to sign on for a PBEM game, but unfortunately, I'm one of the people who have a patched game. A shame, but I suppose it is as it is.

[Vauron]

Ah, I see it now. What does NI stand for anyway?

[hunt11]

No independents. It is a mod created to try to curtail the AI nations constant spamming of chaff armies.

[gp1628]

There is an NI mod.
Also NI maps (which do the same with map commands so no mod is needed).

It does cut down on micromanagement and improve the AI. But I prefer PI (partial independents) such as about a 1 in 10 ratio. But the map can get old because you learn the location of all the good stuff so its best to use a map that gets re-randomized regularly like the Partial_Anos map here.
http://www.dom3minions.com/maps.htm

Its also another server. And has "demo only" games open for a few players at a time.
http://www.dom3minions.com/HostedGames.htm

[Knaight]

Urgaia_Som is little over halfway down, give or take. It's just past the Faerun maps and three Alexander variants.

I'd love to sign on for a PBEM game, but unfortunately, I'm one of the people who have a patched game. A shame, but I suppose it is as it is.

I'm looking into ways to unpatch. You should be able to just install another copy somewhere else on your computer, if you still have the disk, if you don't it is likely more complex. Which means you could be in.

Regarding independants: I deliberately excluded NI maps, as those are a fairly radical departure from the norm. I also personally detest them, which is less relevant.

[Kzickas]

I'll look into the maps tomorrow. Does starting the game on saturday sound good? I need the final list of what civs people are playing btw.

[Vauron]

Saturday sounds fine. To restate, I claim the divine monkey nation. Although I'd prefer the demonic monkey eating nation.