How can I rebalance the combat system for PC vs. PC fights?

[The Troubadour]

Exactly what the title says. :-) The base d20 system is geared towards a group of PCs fighting a single, tough monster. Even D&D 4th Edition is balanced towards a group of PCs fighting a group of monsters, which isn't the same as having 5 separate battles (unless the players really have no tactical talent at all).

How can I modify the base d20 system so that combat is finely balanced for single combat - preferably with lots of cool and effective maneuvers? I'm thinking I should think of a way to change the way weapon damage works so that it scales properly with level (ideally, a 1st level Fighter should take the same number of attacks to kill another 1st level Fighter as a 20th level Fighter would to kill another 20th level Fighter), but what else can I do?

[willpell]

Since you've gotten no other responses, I'll go ahead and say the absurdly obvious thing: D&D is full of save-or-die effects, not just outright death but things like paralysis or even stunning, where a single character just cannot survive without party members to rez / heal / unstone / etc. him. You'll have to do something about that if it's ever to be possible for a single character to survive. Said something could involve just not using those monsters and spells and such which cause these effects, but it's a pretty long list.

[legomaster00156]

Pathfinder did something like this. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/duels) It recommends that the participants agree to a strict set of rules.

[The Troubadour]

You'll have to do something about that if it's ever to be possible for a single character to survive.

Hmmm... It seems I didn't explain myself properly. Let me try it again.

I do not intend to GM for a single character or anything of the sort. What I want is to break down the d20 system and rebuild it so that the combat system works better for single combat (not necessarily formal duels, mind you) than it currently does.

Let me try and summarize my feelings: the d20 system is balanced for PCs vs. monsters. I want to try and balance it for PC vs. PC, without turning combat into either a grindfest or a game of rocket tag.



Pathfinder did something like this. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/duels) It recommends that the participants agree to a strict set of rules.

Interesting! That is, indeed, part of what I'd like to see more. I see no reason why those maneuvers couldn't be used outside of formal duels, though.

[The Troubadour]

There! Changed the title in hopes of making my intent clearer and attracting more attention. :-)

[Hazzardevil]

I think first of all, you need to give melee an incentive not to stand in place and whack each other without going anywhere, otherwise the 2 people will quickly assess who is better in combat and will then start running. So I would recommedn that you allow people to full attack and make a single move action in a round, a buff for melee that doesn't unbalance the game too much.

[The Troubadour]

Actually, I'd prefer to remove iterative attacks entirely.

[Doorhandle]

There are a LOT of save-or-dies, so I think the best way to do them is to make them conditions that take several rounds to get to the death stage, with each round giving another chance to make the save, but being a Save-Or-Suck in the meantime.

Also two-handed weapons are disbalanced compared to everything else because they have a 1/1.5 ratio of strength/damage and power attack penalty/bonus, unlike everything else which is 1/1, so changing that may or may not be priority.

Not sure about that iterive attacks thing but I'll let it slide.

[Anecronwashere]

Well here is what I'm using in a homebrew Percentile (d100) system I'm cooking up, it would be easy to convert to D20 though:

Getting rid of Iteratives:
my game has no Iteratives, but it does have a level-based Initiative system that lets faster opponents have more attacks and you get faster as you level.
Initiative is Level + Speed (Dex) + Initiative Skill
every second add your Initiative and whenever you hit 20 you have your turn and restart at 0 (+ any extra Initiative over the 20).
At higher levels you should add it in 1/2 seconds rather than full ones

Add in lots of Pushing and Battle-Field Control so Melee doesn't just stand there beating each other.
If an attack hits by more than 5 points over the AC push the opponent back (X -5) squares where X is how much over the opponents AC. The push can be in any direction except towards you, even sideways.

Reduce SoDs to SoS over Time.
Each Save or Die takes 3 actions of the affected person to kill them, each time giving an easier Save to overcome.

Example: Life Drain (totally made up)
1st attack: save DC30 or take 5 Con Damage. Fail by 10 or more and you must spend your next Action fighting off the drain, losing your action.
next round: Save DC28 or take another 5 Con Damage. Fail by 10 or more and you must spend your next Action fighting off the drain, losing your action.
3rd round: Save DC25 or die, crumbling to dust. If you save by less than 5 take another 5 Con Damage.

[jvluso]

Before making changes, look at what happens with bare minimum changes, and decide what you like and what you don't like. The Arena (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207670) has been going for a while, and shows what is possible at level one (and two) with no re balancing. Flaws are the biggest game changer. The archive shows all previous matches.

[The Troubadour]

Well here is what I'm using in a homebrew Percentile (d100) system I'm cooking up, it would be easy to convert to D20 though:

Very interesting ideas, but they're a bit more complicated than what I'd like. I do like this one, though:


Add in lots of Pushing and Battle-Field Control so Melee doesn't just stand there beating each other.


The Arena (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207670) has been going for a while, and shows what is possible at level one (and two) with no re balancing.

Interesting, but I'm interested in something mechanically deeper than what's basically a gentleman's agreement. :-)

[Thrawn183]

You could make it so that most debuffs can be saved against each round, though a successful save won't end the effect. It would kind of normalize towards how badly you should be hurt by a spell rather than either saving or failing outright.

[The Troubadour]

Hmmm... Let's leave magic out for a while, guys. What would I have to do to the d20 system if I wanted to emphasize PC vs. PC fights if the only existing classes were Barbarian, non-spellcasting Bard, Fighter, Monk, non-spellcasting Paladin, non-spellcasting Ranger and Rogue?