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Morithias
2012-04-20, 03:24 PM
First I need you to go and watch this 15 minute video.

http://spoonyexperiment.com/2012/04/03/counter-monkey-the-dungeon-masters-secret-weapon/

To sum up the video in short, he claims the ONE trick to get a party to without fail follow your rails is to steal from them.

Here's my questions

1. Does this actually work in your experience?
2. Is this RIGHT to do? I know a lot of people oppose killing PC's but what about striping them of their gear?

Talakeal
2012-04-20, 03:44 PM
First I need you to go and watch this 15 minute video.

http://spoonyexperiment.com/2012/04/03/counter-monkey-the-dungeon-masters-secret-weapon/

To sum up the video in short, he claims the ONE trick to get a party to without fail follow your rails is to steal from them.

Here's my questions

1. Does this actually work in your experience?
2. Is this RIGHT to do? I know a lot of people oppose killing PC's but what about striping them of their gear?

1: Yes. Absolutely.
2: If it is a legitimate situation that follows the rules I don't see why not.

Note that both of these are dependant upon players who deal with situations in character rather than just yelling at the DM or leaving the table when they get frustrated or inconvenianced.

Calanon
2012-04-20, 04:13 PM
1. Does this actually work in your experience?

Yep, I spent 4 games straight just hunting down a party member (a Drow) just to kill him and then drag his corpse back to a church and have him resurrected only to continue our quest. :smallannoyed: I'll admit that when someone robs me I throw out all rationality and just charge in guns a blazing chances are get shot in the ass.


2. Is this RIGHT to do? I know a lot of people oppose killing PC's but what about striping them of their gear?

Robbing a PC is completely legit... granted it will make you feel stupid after you fall for it (Its friken 5 SP)

AsDeR
2012-04-20, 05:32 PM
Happened to me as a player and never felt it was railroading.
I got a random treasure vorpal sword, after having some fun with it a bandit band kicked my ass and robbed it. I spent the next months trying to get it back.

I think it's legit if your DM does it right, if it's just "a halfling approaches you, hugs you and run away" it's just frustrating.

kyoryu
2012-04-20, 05:55 PM
This can be generalized to "threaten something the party has investment in."

hymer
2012-04-20, 05:57 PM
1: Most of the time it works quite well.
2: It can get pretty close to a low blow. I hold back on it, and usually only use it if the player is perfectly aware that the PC has it coming - or the reclaiming is a minor deal, accomplished within an encounter or two. By then, the PCs have had a taste for the story, and the players tend to cooperate nicely.

If you steal something really useful or valuable, you're depriving the PC. If you steal something of less value, they may just shrug it off.
If your nice rewards turn out to be just annoyances as they keep getting stolen or otherwise bring you trouble, why would you want them in the first place?

Traveler
2012-04-20, 07:57 PM
1: Yes, it does work very very well. My fighter had his hammer taken from him. It was a really nice hammer and made custom by House Cannith. So after it was stolen, the fighter lead the party on a quest to get it back. Turned out the quest was also to save the world from evil but that was the fighter's secondary objective.
2: If it is done within the rules and doesn't feel cheap. Knocked out in a bar fight and your stuff was looted? Ok. Local thief robs you? Maybe. Depends on how it's done. Uber monster/npc walks up, takes your stuff, and leaves, not cool.

nedz
2012-04-21, 01:32 PM
It can get shrugged off, it depends upon how important it is.

If the theft is railroaded though, then that kind of defeats the thesis.

bokodasu
2012-04-21, 05:22 PM
1. Yes, it totally works. Once.

2. No, not unfair - as long as you're not unfair about it. If you just say, "all your stuff is stolen" - no chance to prevent it, no chance to get it back, that is not cool. If you say, "thing X was stolen!" and give them the opportunity to get it back, that's Adventure!

It all comes down to what motivates the players - we all pretend it's the same as what motivates the characters, but the number for whom that's true is really a pretty small subset of the gamer population. "That's MY stuff" is pretty universal.

navar100
2012-04-21, 05:52 PM
What makes it "unfair" is that the party can never get away with it. When the party wants to steal something, they have to roll dice, risk getting caught, and risk failing to get what they want to steal. For an NPC to steal the party's stuff and succeed without one die being rolled, Plot Adventure or not, that is abuse of DM power. Doesn't matter if the party can get back whatever was stolen. The meta-game injury was already done.

Morithias
2012-04-21, 06:46 PM
What makes it "unfair" is that the party can never get away with it. When the party wants to steal something, they have to roll dice, risk getting caught, and risk failing to get what they want to steal. For an NPC to steal the party's stuff and succeed without one die being rolled, Plot Adventure or not, that is abuse of DM power. Doesn't matter if the party can get back whatever was stolen. The meta-game injury was already done.

Here's my first rule as a DM. I call it Rule 0.1

You are never to use Rule 0 to fudge dice against the players. You can fudge dice to make them succeed or enemies to fail, NEVER the opposite.

If I want to steal, I have to make checks...unless they do something really stupid like leave the cart unattended.

Ravens_cry
2012-04-21, 07:09 PM
There is another side to this that can make it backfire.
Keep hitting things they care about and they will simply stop caring.

bokodasu
2012-04-21, 07:11 PM
What makes it "unfair" is that the party can never get away with it. When the party wants to steal something, they have to roll dice, risk getting caught, and risk failing to get what they want to steal. For an NPC to steal the party's stuff and succeed without one die being rolled, Plot Adventure or not, that is abuse of DM power. Doesn't matter if the party can get back whatever was stolen. The meta-game injury was already done.

Did you listen to the video? He recommends rolling the dice, and/or natural consequences. What, PC's shouldn't be vulnerable to pickpockets? Carts full of unguarded treasure can be left on the streets unmolested, as long as they're owned by PC's? Nobody should come after their ancestral relics that were removed from their burial mounds, as long as the removers were PC's? The very same PC's who "acquired" all that treasure totally legally and not at all by theft, murder, and/or antiquities looting?

Like I said, it's only unfair if you make it unfair; that part's irrelevant to the technique itself.

Morithias
2012-04-21, 07:14 PM
There is another side to this that can make it backfire.
Keep hitting things they care about and they will simply stop caring.

So true, but at the same time if you're in the slums and you leave your cart unattended....someone is going to try something funny you know what I mean.

I guess the key is not to do it too often, and to make it seem to come from the universe itself.

For example, in my setting in Eternea you'll never get robbed in the high class district...there are FAR too many security measures in place. If you go to the anarchy area of the north east and piss off the wrong people however....

Emmerask
2012-04-21, 07:33 PM
First I need you to go and watch this 15 minute video.

http://spoonyexperiment.com/2012/04/03/counter-monkey-the-dungeon-masters-secret-weapon/

To sum up the video in short, he claims the ONE trick to get a party to without fail follow your rails is to steal from them.

Here's my questions

1. Does this actually work in your experience?
2. Is this RIGHT to do? I know a lot of people oppose killing PC's but what about striping them of their gear?


Yes, it works very very well. I used it as a dm and even as a player knowing about the "secret weapon", I follow that guy to the end of the world, NO ONE STEALS THE LOOT I HAVE RIGHTEOUSLY STOLEN!!

If done with the appropriate rolls then sure its right to do it, why should the pcs be immune to thieves?

Anyway, I love spoonys countermonkey series, especially the thieves world campaign is pure gold!

Ninjadeadbeard
2012-04-21, 07:38 PM
Anyway, I love spoonys countermonkey series, especially the thieves world campaign is pure platinum!

Fixed that for you :smallamused:. Countermonkey is easily my favorite aspect of Spoony's site.
Heh, acid in his face. :smalltongue:

TheThan
2012-04-21, 08:40 PM
SHHHHH!

your letting all our secrets out !


:smallcool:

navar100
2012-04-21, 10:04 PM
Here's my first rule as a DM. I call it Rule 0.1

You are never to use Rule 0 to fudge dice against the players. You can fudge dice to make them succeed or enemies to fail, NEVER the opposite.

If I want to steal, I have to make checks...unless they do something really stupid like leave the cart unattended.

Hey, we agree on something!
:smallsmile:

Morithias
2012-04-21, 11:04 PM
Hey, we agree on something!
:smallsmile:

Yeah...I guess we do...forgive me if I'm wrong but are you the guy I got in a huge argument with over the whole "I TPKed my party with an encounter two CR higher than their level" thing?

Ravens_cry
2012-04-22, 12:30 AM
So true, but at the same time if you're in the slums and you leave your cart unattended....someone is going to try something funny you know what I mean.

I guess the key is not to do it too often, and to make it seem to come from the universe itself.

For example, in my setting in Eternea you'll never get robbed in the high class district...there are FAR too many security measures in place. If you go to the anarchy area of the north east and piss off the wrong people however....
Indeed, I most heartily approve of logical consequences, coming "from the universe" as you so adroitly put it.
Leaving a cart with valuables unguarded in a bad area is just *asking* for trouble.

Calanon
2012-04-22, 01:34 AM
1: Yes, it does work very very well. My fighter had his hammer taken from him. It was a really nice hammer and made custom by House Cannith. So after it was stolen, the fighter lead the party on a quest to get it back. Turned out the quest was also to save the world from evil but that was the fighter's secondary objective.

I...I...I think this is legitimately the first time that a stolen object (that wasn't an artifact) was the center point of an entire campaign (At least one that I've seen/heard about) :smallconfused:


2: If it is done within the rules and doesn't feel cheap. Knocked out in a bar fight and your stuff was looted? Ok. Local thief robs you? Maybe. Depends on how it's done. Uber monster/npc walks up, takes your stuff, and leaves, not cool.

In a bar room brawl there is always atleast one drunken master :smallamused: (Which is why I try to avoid it...)

Knaight
2012-04-22, 10:24 PM
1. This really depends on the game. D&D is a game of gathering ever more loot, where loot makes up a lot of a characters power, in a game largely about power. Stealing loot is going to provoke the players well in it for the most part, given that the game encourages it. In other games, such as those where "loot" isn't even a concept or where it's generally understood that money flows through the characters very quickly instead of to the characters very quickly this won't work as well. There remain exceptions regarding special equipments - take FATE, if a character has an ancestral sword that is represented through an aspect then the theft of that particular sword is relevant.

2. Again, this really depends on the game. In a game where equipment is very much a part of the characters, it should be used cautiously or not at all. In a game where equipment is just stuff the characters have, that doesn't apply. There is also the matter of timing. Take a game where equipment is just stuff, characters can usually replace it pretty easily, so on and so forth. Sword and sorcery tropes are in full effect, and if someone steals your sword you can grab a stick somewhere, use it to take down the next stupid brigand who underestimates you, take his ax, and call it a day. Even in that game, the PCs are going to be pissed when someone absconds with their armor right before a fight they likely can't avoid.

DigoDragon
2012-04-24, 07:32 AM
1. Does this actually work in your experience?
2. Is this RIGHT to do?

1. Yes, this can work, more often than not. It's almost like a personal insult to the character when they lose something from their gear. In my current campaign, the party has been on the trail of a wizard because he managed to successfully steal back a component to his device from the PCs.
Yes, the thing that the wizard stole belonged to the wizard in the first place. Did the PCs care? Well... apparently! In particular the party monk has made it his life's mission to put this Wizard down and get back "his" item.

2. If you use this trick, use it as a plot hook. Don't overplay it and keep robbing the PCs of all their well earned gear. I find the best use of this trick is to give a random, somewhat useful, wonderous item that the PCs will want to keep around for its utility. Later on, the item gets stolen and the PCs then learn it's part of some bigger (and more dangerous) device and now they need to track it down before the device is completed and unleashes something really bad (eldtritch laser cannon, giant war golem, gateway to Carealot, etc.).

Oracle_Hunter
2012-04-26, 11:19 AM
Yes, the generalized "steal/threaten something the PCs care about" is a sure-fire hook but, like any hook, it should not be overused.

Weaknesses
(1) "steal/threaten"
You always need to be careful about hinging plots on things that require the PCs to succeed (or fail!) at something. PCs usually have countermeasures against things being stolen and, as a rule, Players don't like it when the DM Fiats against their interests (e.g. by having something they like stolen from them regardless of rolls).

You can fix this by making the Thief unstoppable (at the time) but that can make Players annoyed that they're forced to face something they have no way of stopping. Plus, if they get beaten very badly they may not want to chase the Thief down since he'd just embarrass them again.

(2) "something the PCs care about"
The main hazard here is overuse. Players who routinely play with "Hit 'em Where it Hurts" DMs get in the habit of rolling up loveless orphans so that the DM can't have their mother/sister/lover/cat kidnapped or killed by the BBEG as a plot device. In gear-based games stealing the PCs equipment can wreck their build and sometimes can spur the PCs to just find replacements instead of tracking the Thief across the multiverse.

* * *
Of course there are lots of sure-fire hooks out there which are more "carrot" than "stick." Examples include:

- Wealth
- Power
- Fame
- Destiny

Mostly, it helps to pick a hook which your Players are interested in. IMHO it is easier to ask the Players "why are your characters adventuring" and work from there rather than starting with "what kind of spur with get this horse galloping."

Jerthanis
2012-04-26, 01:31 PM
It does sort of work... but not that much better than any other method of making people hate individuals and then having the individuals get away.

I think the biggest thing that you need to be careful about is the individuals getting away. Beyond about 5th level it becomes unrealistic to have NPCs steal from the party successfully, whether by being able to detect the theft, outrun them, or track them inerrently. For the NPCs to steal from the party by this level, they need to be of sufficient power themselves that you have to wonder why they're bothering with pickpocketing people's coinpurses.

Also, structuring a plot based on losing a MacGuffin in this way is a bad, bad idea. I did it once in my youth. The PCs were hired to deliver a mysterious crystal ball to a wizard a few cities over and I had a thief pickpocket it. One of my players immediately said essentially, "Well, I'm not going to strain myself thinking of how to get it back because it's clear you planned the game around it being stolen, so you might as well just tell me what you want me to do to get it back." basically a great big, "I see what you did there"

You have to be careful that gold is actually worth something in your game though too, if you want this to count. I'm in a game right now about being marooned on a tropical island with natives who have crude wooden tools and not enough food for sale, but we keep getting gold in our treasure. If someone stole 300 gold pieces from me in that game, I wouldn't blink and would say, "Good, it was heavy".

Knaight
2012-04-26, 01:54 PM
I think the biggest thing that you need to be careful about is the individuals getting away. Beyond about 5th level it becomes unrealistic to have NPCs steal from the party successfully, whether by being able to detect the theft, outrun them, or track them inerrently. For the NPCs to steal from the party by this level, they need to be of sufficient power themselves that you have to wonder why they're bothering with pickpocketing people's coinpurses.
This isn't the 3.x subforum, and in many other games (including just about every other edition of D&D), there is no reason to think that thieves won't be able to pull something like this off. Plus, if what they're pickpocketing is extremely valuable, it makes sense for them to choose it as an option even if they are impressive professionals that routinely pull of museum heists and similar.

Jerthanis
2012-04-26, 04:30 PM
This isn't the 3.x subforum, and in many other games (including just about every other edition of D&D), there is no reason to think that thieves won't be able to pull something like this off. Plus, if what they're pickpocketing is extremely valuable, it makes sense for them to choose it as an option even if they are impressive professionals that routinely pull of museum heists and similar.

Apologies, my reason for citing levels involved a response directly to the video, which seemed to be talking about traditional D&D elements, and that aspect of my response was in reference to Spoony seeming to imply that there would be almost no bottom limit to how much you can steal from the PCs to motivate them as such.

This aspect of my response essentially would have been better stated to say, "Well, anyone who would bother stealing your boots isn't going to be a significant enough thief to succeed past a relatively low power level game, so it's hardly a universal secret weapon."

Talakeal
2012-04-26, 05:08 PM
Also, structuring a plot based on losing a MacGuffin in this way is a bad, bad idea. I did it once in my youth. The PCs were hired to deliver a mysterious crystal ball to a wizard a few cities over and I had a thief pickpocket it. One of my players immediately said essentially, "Well, I'm not going to strain myself thinking of how to get it back because it's clear you planned the game around it being stolen, so you might as well just tell me what you want me to do to get it back." basically a great big, "I see what you did there"".

I fail to see how this is different than any other plot point.

If I had a player who refused to put any effort into the game because it involved plot points, well, they are free to sit there and let their character do nothing while I play the game with the rest of the party until they get bored and leave, and if someone had that attitude I doubt very strongly that they would be missed when they did.

Riverdance
2012-04-26, 07:00 PM
First I need you to go and watch this 15 minute video.

http://spoonyexperiment.com/2012/04/03/counter-monkey-the-dungeon-masters-secret-weapon/

To sum up the video in short, he claims the ONE trick to get a party to without fail follow your rails is to steal from them.

Here's my questions

1. Does this actually work in your experience?
2. Is this RIGHT to do? I know a lot of people oppose killing PC's but what about striping them of their gear?

Oh man, that would totally work on my players.

Aidan305
2012-04-26, 07:35 PM
As others have said, it's not so much the stealing of an item or the killing of a beloved NPC; it's about making the players care about what's going on in the game world. I's making them want to track down a slaughter the BBEG before dancing on his grave.

If you can do this, GMing becomes much easier.

huttj509
2012-04-26, 07:41 PM
If someone pickpockets a few GP and the player shrugs it off?

He's now known as an easy mark in the area. Dude, adventurers have STUFF. As long as you don't touch the things, you can walk off with what to the adventurer is a paltry sum, and live for a year!

Player enters town.
Dice get rolled.
Player notices someone make off with 10G but does nothing.
"I spend the reward on ale an-"
"You find your coinpouch empty."
"What?"
"Yeah, you only spotted one of the ten pickpockets who were waiting for you to get back in town, half of them have now retired."
"But this is the good part of town, less crime."
"It was until you arrived."

Edit:

The trick with this, or the BBEG escaping, or any antagonistic NPC action, is to have a difference between the NPC robbing the party, and the DM robbing the party. This can be a very fine line.

hymer
2012-04-27, 04:32 AM
@ huttj509:
That sounds a lot like punishing the player for not biting the hook to me.

huttj509
2012-04-27, 12:23 PM
@ huttj509:
That sounds a lot like punishing the player for not biting the hook to me.

Or pointing out how different the adventurer economy is from the npc economy. If a PC doesn't mind losing what's generally a substantial amount of cash, what do you expect would happen?

*rereads my post*

I didn't mean for this to be the player's first encounter with a pickpocket, was referring to a prior post regarding the player just not caring he was robbed, and what might happen once word got out (after a few sessions, especially if it happened more times). The noticed pickpocket in there was just to indicate he was aware robberies could be and were occurring.

"What do I do if he just doesn't care?" Well, what would the thieves do?

Oracle_Hunter
2012-04-28, 01:05 PM
"What do I do if he just doesn't care?" Well, what would the thieves do?
But that's not addressing the problem -- you are the DM trying to motivate Players, not the Guildmaster giving orders to his pickpockets.

If your purpose is to motivate your Players to do something and your tactic fails, it is generally not wise to double-down. If the Players don't care about money, imposing in-game consequences on their characters is not likely to make them change their minds. At best they ignore the next sally; at worst they get angry at the DM for "piling on" then for not being interested in a given hook. Neither outcome fixes the root problem.

huttj509
2012-04-28, 05:02 PM
But that's not addressing the problem -- you are the DM trying to motivate Players, not the Guildmaster giving orders to his pickpockets.

If your purpose is to motivate your Players to do something and your tactic fails, it is generally not wise to double-down. If the Players don't care about money, imposing in-game consequences on their characters is not likely to make them change their minds. At best they ignore the next sally; at worst they get angry at the DM for "piling on" then for not being interested in a given hook. Neither outcome fixes the root problem.

If your players don't care about 100G
or 1000G
or being considered easy targets
or the lingering question of "will my sword disappear next?" (I don't recommend going for character central items, as it's too easy to hit below the belt there, and in character, unless a thief is bad@@@ he probably doesn't wanna risk pissing the mighty adventurers off too much)

then you might wanna just throw a princess in a dungeon and give up.

I understand the issue to be less "the players aren't biting the hook" and more "the players don't care to interact with the world outside of things trying to kill them." I may be wrong on this understanding.

Jerthanis
2012-05-01, 12:44 AM
I fail to see how this is different than any other plot point.

If I had a player who refused to put any effort into the game because it involved plot points, well, they are free to sit there and let their character do nothing while I play the game with the rest of the party until they get bored and leave, and if someone had that attitude I doubt very strongly that they would be missed when they did.

It was essentially structured in a way where the rails were showing. It happened in the first session of a new game and the PCs rolled relatively well on their spot check, but were unable to catch him before he successfully went to ground with suspicious alacrity. After a few minutes arguing over what to do, the player in question got kind of annoyed and levelled that argument at me, to tell the PCs what to do because this was clearly all planned to happen this way, and to basically, "Just get on with it" if it was what was supposed to happen. That, if it were supposed to be our plot hook, and it wasn't going to be our choice to swallow it or not, to let it drag us where I wanted them to go.

I don't begrudge a player respond to an artificial setup with an eyeroll and an "I see what's going on, let's just move on already." essentially.

Edog
2012-05-01, 11:25 PM
Oh wow, that was hilarious! Thank you for sharing!

1. I haven't actually seen it used in a tabletop RPG, but it worked pretty well in a choose-your-own-adventure fanfic I read, where someone stole a few spellbooks off a wizard. The three options for the audience were:
[ ] Amused (who’s gonna be able to read them?)
[ ] Irritated.
[ ] BLOOD AND THUNDER
That last got over 90% of the votes.

2. Depends on whether or not you follow the rules. Cheating to steal from them isn't fair, but otherwise it's fine. Like with any other technique, though, don't overuse it, or it'll get old.

Emmerask
2012-05-02, 08:05 AM
It was essentially structured in a way where the rails were showing. It happened in the first session of a new game and the PCs rolled relatively well on their spot check, but were unable to catch him before he successfully went to ground with suspicious alacrity. After a few minutes arguing over what to do, the player in question got kind of annoyed and levelled that argument at me, to tell the PCs what to do because this was clearly all planned to happen this way, and to basically, "Just get on with it" if it was what was supposed to happen. That, if it were supposed to be our plot hook, and it wasn't going to be our choice to swallow it or not, to let it drag us where I wanted them to go.

I don't begrudge a player respond to an artificial setup with an eyeroll and an "I see what's going on, let's just move on already." essentially.

Though that is not really a problem of the "weapon", but a problem of bad execution.