WH40k vs. The Playground's Collective (D&D 3.5) Optimization Skill

[Chess435]

Disclaimer: Was a bit of a toss-up between here and the 3.5 subforum, so move if necessary.

The Scenario: As the end result of one of Tzeentch's plans, every active poster on these forums that has at least a passing familiarity with the system gains a Magical character sheet to fill out, under the following guidelines:

1. 20th level, 36 point buy, standard WBL (760k)
2. Anything that would ring up as less than .5 on the ToS tier list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6562949&postcount=1136) doesn't work. (So basically no infinite loops, chain-gating, or being immune to everything ever.)
3. Upon filling out your sheet, you appear as your character alongside everyone else on some relatively uninhabited but reasonably-safe-considering-the-setting planet.

Do you think that we could collectively shake things up in the WH40k 'verse, or will we fall to the GRIMDARK of the place?

[Istari]

I think most people with enough optimization to matter would be busy setting up defenses in their private demiplanes or otherwise occupy each other. Though once they completed their preparations they/we wreck some major havoc.

[DeusMortuusEst]

I think most people with enough optimization to matter would be busy setting up defenses in their private demiplanes or otherwise occupy each other. Though once they completed their preparations they/we wreck some major havoc.

Probably, and then a whole army of simulcra (sp?) would gather, launching wight-bombs and commanding their 3rd level dragon disciple (I think it's disciple at least, might have been another 'dragon x' class) followers to engulf entire worlds in flames.

[Cespenar]

3. Upon filling out your sheet, you appear as your character alongside everyone else on some relatively uninhabited but reasonably-safe-considering-the-setting planet.

Do you think that we could collectively shake things up in the WH40k 'verse, or will we fall to the GRIMDARK of the place?

I think most people can't actually act in the mindset of an omniscient paranoid archmage as easy as they can write about what they'd do in optimization forums. That alone is a huge fall in power, in my opinion.

Besides, isn't WH40K's scope epic enough to not be fazed by a "mere" hundreds of godlings?

[Hazzardevil]

I honestly think that there would be enough people on the playground who could simply diplomance the tau or the Imperium into doing whatever they wanted, so they could quite easily make 40K a much nicer place.
Mind you, the space marines would likely rebel against this because they are made obsolete by an infinite number of summon-able creatures to conquer worlds.
It is basically a question of weather or not the playground would kill itself.

[The Glyphstone]

Or if 3.5 magic falls under the nebulous and mutable definition of 'sorcery'. If so, it'd be great right up until we all become corrupted by Tzeentch.

[hunt11]

We all congregate on a private plane of existence and have fun until the day we die. Any interaction with the 40k universe is only asking for trouble, and I for one would prefer not having to worry about demons eating my soul for the hell of it.

[TheFallenOne]

Do we get experience for the things we kill? The possibility of entering Epic would make a huge difference.

And once we are wizards with inhumanly high intelligence instead of still very much limited humans playing such characters... Well, I predict we'll have a lot of interesting ideas.

[Weezer]

I think most people can't actually act in the mindset of an omniscient paranoid archmage as easy as they can write about what they'd do in optimization forums. That alone is a huge fall in power, in my opinion.

Besides, isn't WH40K's scope epic enough to not be fazed by a "mere" hundreds of godlings?

The thing is that while 40K has some incredibly powerful beings in it, they are all limited in a number of ways that would make them largely impotent against a group of optimized D&D characters. For example the combination of scry and teleport means that the giantitp force would be attacking everywhere in the Imperium that there aren't these massively powerful beings in it and if they do need to take down some heroic figure, it'd be done when he was naked in the shower. As long as we don't try to seek out Khorne for a little toe to toe fight the dismantling of 40K is pretty much assured.


Or if 3.5 magic falls under the nebulous and mutable definition of 'sorcery'. If so, it'd be great right up until we all become corrupted by Tzeentch.

Why would that ever be? Nothing in 3.5 is warp related, therefore it isn't sorcery.

[The Glyphstone]

Why would that ever be? Nothing in 3.5 is warp related, therefore it isn't sorcery.

Magic has to come from somewhere. It doesn't come from the Warp in 3.5 because the Warp doesn't exist in 3.5. But when all us wizards get dumped into the 40K universe, either our powers stop working (self-defeating), we bring an inexhaustible supply of magical energy with us (why?) or our magic starts drawing on the convenient local source of very similar if not identical energy, which happens to be the Warp (also why?).

[Weezer]

Magic has to come from somewhere. It doesn't come from the Warp in 3.5 because the Warp doesn't exist in 3.5. But when all us wizards get dumped into the 40K universe, either our powers stop working (self-defeating), we bring an inexhaustible supply of magical energy with us (why?) or our magic starts drawing on the convenient local source of very similar if not identical energy, which happens to be the Warp (also why?).

Why can't it come from wherever magic comes from in 3.5? In 3.5 magic doesn't stop working if you go onto another plane, shouldn't it work the same here.

[Tiki Snakes]

Well, 40k already has Sorcery in addition to the powers that Psykers manifest. The point is that it may well be that same source and there's really no way to be sure.

More importantly, even if your magic itself is safe from Warp related effects, you certainly aren't. And a world full of powerful wizards is a pretty obvious target for Tzeentch style corruption shenanigans. I think the 'Escape to Demiplane Paradise' plan is by far the best one so far.

[Devonix]

Because unfortunatly there is no Mystra or weave in the 40k universe. For our magic to work the same way we'd also have to bring our deities along for the ride.

[druid91]

That's only forgotten realms.

Normal D&D magic comes from knowing how to push the universes buttons just right.

And/Or getting a god to do it for you.

[The Glyphstone]

Why can't it come from wherever magic comes from in 3.5? In 3.5 magic doesn't stop working if you go onto another plane, shouldn't it work the same here.

Because we're not moving to another plane here, we're being transported to an entirely different universe. It's not even like moving between Spheres in Spelljammer - the 40Kverse could be a single-plane realm, or two if the Warp counts as its version of the Astral. It's far from unreasonable to assume the rules are different, the key issue is how different they are, and how bad that difference is for the intruders.


That's only forgotten realms.

Normal D&D magic comes from knowing how to push the universes buttons just right.

And/Or getting a god to do it for you.

Exactly - and in the 40K universe (which might not even have an Astral Plane or any planes besides its Prime and the Warp), the universe's control panel could be entirely different with a very unfamiliar spread of buttons that have no labels. And of course, getting a god's help is a Bad Idea.

I think I'd be in favor of everyone getting together and researching Epic Spell: Get The Heck Out Of Here before something worse happens.

[Traab]

Since im pretty sure the mechanics are there in D&D to become gods by various means, I could see this group of playgrounders working on rituals to do just that as fast as possible, then gather their strength and move to replace the current pantheon in the 40k universe. Lets face it, I dont know how many members there are on this board, but I bet its a lot. So it would be sort of like if the greek gods suddenly got attacked by every god of every religion that has ever existed all at once.

If that isnt a viable tactic, then someone mentioned diplomancers. Im fairly sure skilled cheesers could stay below any limits put on them and still be able to basically do a bloodless takeover of most of the various races and claim those armies for themselves, even if not openly, for awhile.

A third tactic would be, because we have such a large pool of potential minmaxers to work with, I bet with a bit of study and planning, we could create groups of characters that, while not maximized as such for D&D, are still setup to counter each race as effectively as possible. So group alpha are there to counter the necrons, group beta are there to block the orks, etc etc etc. After all, we get the time to literally design a perfect counter to the empires and leave no easily exploitable openings for them to work with.

It might take some fluff arguing, but im sure it could be done. As an example, the orks apparently have a plant like dna strand in them, would that give druids a form of control over them? It might. Mixed together with the various scry and die/world destroying tactics for sneak attacks to avoid open warfare, id say the playground empire could become a major power in a short time. Now, whether they could reach final victory? I dunno. It would be like having an empire consisting of say, 300 extremely strong heroes, but they are facing off against trillions of troops backed by their own heroes. I guess it depends on how much control the playgrounders can seize before the various empires can locate and counter attack.

[Hazzardevil]

I think really the playground would probably side with one of the factions in 40K, which will invariably be Chaos, Tau or the Imperium. Because we will need a way to stay up all the time. So we would likely end up using cheese like an infinite supply of unseen servants to drop bricks on people.

[Surrealistik]

On the subject of playgrounders becoming sorcerous godlings poised to upset the natural order of the 40k universe:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-QWpulBcGSvc/TZMKzLjoY9I/AAAAAAAABmI/-BwqVUiQBGo/s1600/Just_as_planned_tzeentch.jpg

Further, as per the Dark Heresy/Deathwatch rules, each Lord of Change has access to every last sorcery in existence, can cast them spontaneously including the ones you've brought into this universe, and probably are more proficient and cunning at using them if their 99 (out of 100), 3x Unnatural Intelligence score is any indication (to say nothing of its ability to constantly see into the future).

In summary, at best your power is inadequate to affect the status quo and you remain uncorrupted; at worst, your presence makes Tzeentch by far the most powerful chaos god, and every last one of you becomes a mutated puppet while the universe burns.

[Soras Teva Gee]

So one of the most broken rule sets in existence against one of the most overrated settings in existence. *facepalm*

[Aotrs Commander]

So one of the most broken rule sets in existence against one of the most overrated settings in existence. *facepalm*

Much as I love 3.x, I have to, fairly, concur with the former sentiment, and whole-heartedly agree with the latter.

[The Glyphstone]

Much as I love 3.x, I have to, fairly, concur with the former sentiment, and whole-heartedly agree with the latter.

Double agree, though in the case of the latter, it's an inevitable effect of bringing 40K into a versus match. GRIMDARK is not supposed to be taken seriously, the over-the-top ridiculousness is what makes up most of its charm. In a VS contest, you strip away the humor and you're left with a ludicrously overpowered setting that makes Lovecraft look optimistic and hopeful.

[Misery Esquire]

against one of the most overrated settings in existence. *facepalm*

I didn't know My Little Pony was in this match.

...

...

Overused, I'd agree with.

[Surrealistik]

So one of the most broken rule sets in existence against one of the most overrated settings in existence. *facepalm*
I didn't know My Little Pony was in this match.

Lol, oh snap. +1

[The Glyphstone]

I didn't know My Little Pony was in this match.


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