Worst tactical advice on running a monster

[Boci]

This thread is for finding the worst round by round suggestions offered in a monster's description. I will start by nominating the Hobgoblin Warsoul from the MM V. It starts out promising with:


Round 1: Cast web to slow down or immobilize enemy fighters. Warsouls prefer for their warriors to bring the battle to the enemy.

Cool, good choice. What's next?



Round 2: Cast fireball targeting the area of the web, so as to free up the battlefield while adding damage to the normal effect of the fireball.

Really????!!!!!!!!

So, which ones do you nominate? For the purpose of this contest, the actual strength of the monster is irrelevant. It's all about how WotC (or 3rd party if you can find it) fails to utilize the abilities already given to them.

[Jon_Dahl]

Do you count bad build-advices?


Dragons favor Alertness, Blind-Fight, Cleave, Flyby Attack, Hover, Improved Initiative, Improved Sunder, Power Attack, Snatch, Weapon Focus (claw or bite), Wingover, and any metamagic feat that is available and useful to sorcerers.

Dragons already have high attack bonuses and weapon focus seems like peanuts. If your attack bonus is +24 or something like this, do you really want to raise it to +25? Seriously, is there any need?
That should read "improved natural attack (claw or bite)" especially because if the dragon needs to close the distance to attack in melee, it's useful to start with a diving claw attack (which inflicts double damage). If I were a large dragon, I'd find a claw attack +24 with 2d6+Str bonus a little bit more useful than a claw attack +25 with 1d8+Str...

[Boci]

I guess it counts, although I am more interested in round by round tactics that suck.

[Clustered Chaos]

The Vrock. A creature who can fly, cast Mirror Image and Telekinesis at will, AoE Stun with a fairly high DC, and summon more Vrocks.

What do they do instead?


Vrocks are vicious fighters who like to fly down into the enemy and cause as much damage as possible. They prance about in battle, taking briefly to the air and bringing their clawed feet into play. Despite their advantage in mobility, the vrocks’ deep love of battle frequently leads them into melee combats against heavy odds.

Here's another.


The oldest and most malevolent wraiths lurk in the depths of forgotten temples and other forsaken places. They can sense the approach of living creatures, and hunger for them. Despite its size, the dread wraith possesses unearthly quickness, and makes use of its Spring Attack feat and natural reach to strike with deadly effect and melt back into the shadows—or the walls.

This one is less obvious, but read the incorporeal rules and you'll understand the problem.

[TuggyNE]

This one is less obvious, but read the incorporeal rules and you'll understand the problem.

I still don't get it. It hovers just within the wall, giving it cover against attacks and the ability to hide (at which it is rather good), uses spring attack for its single natural attack, and goes back to cover and its reduced hide modifier. Why is this a problem? It doesn't hide completely within the walls, of course, so it doesn't have a problem detecting approaching living creatures.

[nyarlathotep]

A creature floating within the wall can just attack people outside of it without moving out. So no need for spring attack, they can just full attack, and incorporeal creatures can't move further than five feet into a wall so spring attack another get you any further from harm into the wall.

[Steward]

Can someone give me a quick explanation of what's (tactically) wrong with casting fireball at a webbed-up foe?

[Gavinfoxx]

It destroys the web. The Web that is there to keep them bound and not a threat. The Web that you can just stand back and, you know, attack them with anything but Fire and they won't likely be able to move.

[ericgrau]

And even though a wraith can't see while in a wall, he can still see while springing out of the wall. Thus they can gain total cover (avoiding all attacks except readied actions) with the slight drawback that they might sometimes unknowingly spring out when all foes are out of range. Oh well, try again next round from another spot.

For the Vrock the stun only lasts 1 round and is only 1/hour. They often need to hit at least 2 targets to break even since they also lose their own turn to use it. Due to their 5 attacks and free action spores that only affect adjacent foes they do far better in melee. Sure if your foes can't touch you at all flight is better, but by CR 9 who can't?

Agreed on the other 2 monsters though. Don't fireball a web for a measly extra 2d4. At least wait until the foe is close to escaping, if ever, sheesh.

[tiercel]

I don't know about "worst," but unhelpful:

Ogres.


Ogres favor overwhelming odds, sneak attacks, and ambushes over a fair fight. (Emphasis added.)

So, they must have some kind of a decent Hide check, right?

Dex: 8 (-1 attribute modifier)
Size: Large (-4 size modifier)
Hide armor (-3 ACP)
Ranks in Hide: 0

Hide check modifier: -8


They are intelligent enough to fire ranged weapons first to soften up their foes before closing

Attack: Greatclub +8 melee (2d8+7) or javelin +1 ranged (1d8+5)

Because "intelligent" (for an ogre) means taking -7 to attack and -(d8+2) to damage instead of merely advancing 30' and swinging the stupid club (instead of, say, a Large greatsword). In order for a javelin to even count as "getting an attack this round at range when I couldn't have charged in," the ogre has to be throwing it from 3+ range increments.

If the stupid ogre was wearing even studded leather (never mind a chain shirt) instead of stupid hide armor, it could charge from 80' and get an attack at +10 for 2d8+7 instead of a stupid javelin attack at -3 for 1d8+5.

(Or use a greatsword and get 3d6+7 at 19-20/x2.)

Don't get me started on Toughness and Weapon Focus: Greatclub as feat choices.

[willpell]

Not to rain on your parade, but you do realize that Wotco didn't want most of their monsters optomized, right? Generating TPKs is not the best way of encouraging sales. Besides which, it's very in-flavor for creatures like demons and ogres to be more interested in doing the fun melee bash thing rather than using sound tactics - they're Evil and/or Chaotic, they do what they feel like and see what happens, for the sheer joy of "starting some s**t". The most strategically effective use of their capabilities might well be utterly boring; that they have those abilities at all might be reflective of their basal nature but not something they actually use (think "appendix" or "little toe"), or it might be a holdout weapon they only use in a very high-stakes situation.

I agree on dragons and Weapon Focus though, that's pretty atrocious for a creature with superhuman intelligence that can live for thousands of years and gets more powerful while doing so.

[Boci]

Not to rain on your parade, but you do realize that Wotco didn't want most of their monsters optomized, right?

You do realize I mentioned in the OP that this wasn't about how strong a monster is but rather how well WotC recommends they use the resources they already chose to give them?


Generating TPKs is not the best way of encouraging sales. Besides which, it's very in-flavor for creatures like demons and ogres to be more interested in doing the fun melee bash

Which is what tiercel was advocating: ogres should rush into melee, not use ranged attack because they suck at them. It would be like someone with a kukri taking a moment to fire paintball pellets at an opponent.

[nedz]

...
So, they must have some kind of a decent Hide check, right?
...
Hide check modifier: -8

I believe that this is for the comedy moment:
"What ! You didn't see the Ogre hiding in the rose bushes ?"



Attack: Greatclub +8 melee (2d8+7) or javelin +1 ranged (1d8+5)

Because "intelligent" (for an ogre) means taking -7 to attack and -(d8+2) to damage instead of merely advancing 30' and swinging the stupid club (instead of, say, a Large greatsword). In order for a javelin to even count as "getting an attack this round at range when I couldn't have charged in," the ogre has to be throwing it from 3+ range increments.

This is because ranged combat was perceived as low risk, and they get to hit you with an AoO as you charge in because of their reach anyway.

This is why they have Combat Reflexes:

Don't get me started on Toughness and Weapon Focus: Greatclub as feat choices.
OK you have a point here.


...If the stupid ogre was wearing even studded leather (never mind a chain shirt) instead of stupid hide armor, it could charge from 80' and get an attack at +10 for 2d8+7 instead of a stupid javelin attack at -3 for 1d8+5.

(Or use a greatsword and get 3d6+7 at 19-20/x2.)


The key word here is stupid - its theamatic.

[Clustered Chaos]

A creature floating within the wall can just attack people outside of it without moving out. So no need for spring attack, they can just full attack, and incorporeal creatures can't move further than five feet into a wall so spring attack another get you any further from harm into the wall.

This.


And even though a wraith can't see while in a wall, he can still see while springing out of the wall. Thus they can gain total cover (avoiding all attacks except readied actions) with the slight drawback that they might sometimes unknowingly spring out when all foes are out of range. Oh well, try again next round from another spot.

Incorporeal creatures can sense nearby creatures while in a solid object. Instead of coming out and being hit by various AoOs and readied actions they can be completely immune to all non readied actions and still have at least normal cover if not improved cover against the readied actions.


For the Vrock the stun only lasts 1 round and is only 1/hour. They often need to hit at least 2 targets to break even since they also lose their own turn to use it. Due to their 5 attacks and free action spores that only affect adjacent foes they do far better in melee. Sure if your foes can't touch you at all flight is better, but by CR 9 who can't?

Agreed on the other 2 monsters though. Don't fireball a web for a measly extra 2d4. At least wait until the foe is close to escaping, if ever, sheesh.

Depends on how many Vrocks there are, and it is an AoE with a good radius. That said they have TK at will. Nothing with TK at will is better off meleeing. Instead it can fly around with 8 images.

I can see an Ogre doing stupid things, though stupid for it would be WARGH!

The Vrock has mental stats of 14/16/16. It's not going to go run in and kick you when it has a rocket launcher.

[Starbuck_II]

Incorporeal creatures can sense nearby creatures while in a solid object. Instead of coming out and being hit by various AoOs and readied actions they can be completely immune to all non readied actions and still have at least normal cover if not improved cover against the readied actions.


I question this. Where is this listed? Seems not a rule.

[Venger]

I question this. Where is this listed? Seems not a rule.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#incorporealSubtype

^right in the incorporeal subtype .

[Red_Dog]

Quick comment on Wraith thing.

=>They have fly speed
=>They are printed in the same book where FLYBY attack is printed.

Not even going as far as Greater Flyby attack[from Savage species] which is fantastic on wraiths/shades/etc. Just flyby attack is far enough really.

*By the by. As far as I can see, Full attacking as a wraith is a m00t point, as they can only make one attack?O_o*

Quick comment on Ogres.

The least WotC could have done is to suggest them causing avalanches[just pushing big boulders down the hill, maybe vs a Reflex save], or something of sort. Or maybe using Nets. Maybe digging pits? The basic makeshift trap is a pit with stakes. It doesn't need to be big, as even a 1sqr foot trap with sharp sticks and poo smeared allover it WILL mess up your day. It does not take too long to make it, or too much skill, especially when one can take 20. None of these solutions need a good attack roll or rely on high dex. All of them are "ambush tactics". All of them, to me, would make Ogres interesting enemies and would keep up with there "spirit".

These guys are basically "hunter gatherers". Smash with stick shouldn't be first response as they would have been extinct awhile ago[animals capable of orchestrating a better tactics than that => que pack of wolves] by now.

Quick comment on Vrocks.

Hmmm tough to say, as they are daemons and should often act on compulsions[the nature of being chaotic]. However, changing their compulsions would be an ok idea. But that's a fluff territory a lot more so than its for the ogres.

P.S. As just sort of a final comment. I, personally, always re-feat and re-skill ALL my monsters, no matter campaign. I do not always advance them[that depends on the campaign], but I do always semi-optimize them. It doesn't mean that the monster will produce TPKs, however, he/she will attempt to weed out incompetence and promote intelligent problem solving approach ^^.

[Ernir]

A titan usually reserves its gate and etherealness abilities to escape a fight that is not going well.

You have friggin' Gate at your disposal, and you use it to... escape a battle?

How about you Gate in a few more Titans, and have the last of the chain use its Gate for you to GtFO?

[Tengu_temp]

I'm pretty sure ogres use hide armor and greatclubs instead of better equipment because most of them don't have access to anything better. Stitching a crude suit from hides is much easier than making leather armor and then studding it.

Their tactics are still dumb, but hey, ogres.

[Talakeal]

I'm pretty sure ogres use hide armor and greatclubs instead of better equipment because most of them don't have access to anything better. Stitching a crude suit from hides is much easier than making leather armor and then studding it.

Their tactics are still dumb, but hey, ogres.

You know whats funny? In my homebrew system blunt weapons are more effective than edged against plate, and as a result the PCs always complained when they fought ogres because they DIDN'T use greatswords, and would therefore be able to really hurt the plate wearing "tank" character.

[Clustered Chaos]

Flyby Attack is far superior to Spring Attack. That said, the Wraith could:

Use three feats and do something that provokes a number of AoOs and readied actions.
Use one feat to achieve the same effect as three.
Use zero feats and get an even better result.

It chose the first option. You can point out the 50% miss chance but one feat makes that 25% and it still has two feats for other things. Being an incorporeal touch attack, it is very unlikely to miss for any reason other than miss chances, whereas being immune to all non readied actions means it lasts a whole lot longer.

Long fights always favor the enemy.

[Tengu_temp]

You know whats funny? In my homebrew system blunt weapons are more effective than edged against plate, and as a result the PCs always complained when they fought ogres because they DIDN'T use greatswords, and would therefore be able to really hurt the plate wearing "tank" character.

Shouldn't that be chainmail? What's most effective against plate are piercing weapons.

[Snowbluff]

Shouldn't that be chainmail? What's most effective against plate are piercing weapons.

Agreed. Stiffer armors are hard to actually cause wounds against with blunt weapons. Sure, you might be able to concuss a guy wearing a plate helm, but you would of shattered his skull if he was wearing a chain coif.

[Roncorps]

What's most effective against plate are piercing weapons.

Yes and no. Arrow were very effective, because they passed through the armour layer, but B weapon was used to crush the armour, thus making the plate hurt the knight himself badly. That's why sword were not sharp and did mostly bludgeoning damage to armour.

Vs Chainmail, the slashing sword were less effective, but crushing was very effective.

Crushing/bludgeoning weapon were mostly effective vs most of the armour.

[Starbuck_II]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#incorporealSubtype

^right in the incorporeal subtype .

But it has 50% miss if it attacks from the floor/wall. Seems good, but you need blind fight or you'll miss as a wraith a lot.

[ericgrau]

Incorporeal creatures can sense nearby creatures while in a solid object. Instead of coming out and being hit by various AoOs and readied actions they can be completely immune to all non readied actions and still have at least normal cover if not improved cover against the readied actions.
How do they attack without coming out though? It's not like PCs will stand next to the wall after the first hit.

The thing I noticed on flyby attack is that it doesn't seem to prevent attacks of opportunity for moving like spring attack does.



Depends on how many Vrocks there are, and it is an AoE with a good radius. That said they have TK at will. Nothing with TK at will is better off meleeing. Instead it can fly around with 8 images.
TK on a 16 charisma Vrock is a pathetic attack. The modifier on the combat maneuver is low. Even if the maneuver succeeds it's a temporary inconvenience until the next check fails. And it not only disables the target, it disables the Vrock whether it succeeds or fails because it eats his turn.

[Steward]

It destroys the web. The Web that is there to keep them bound and not a threat. The Web that you can just stand back and, you know, attack them with anything but Fire and they won't likely be able to move.

Thanks! I guess that advice is only solid if you're absolutely sure that the fireball will kill your opponent!

[Talakeal]

Shouldn't that be chainmail? What's most effective against plate are piercing weapons.

I didn't say most effective, I said more effective than an edged (slashing) weapon. The PCs are used to fighting enemies with swords, which is mostly ineffective vs. plate, and so the clubs on ogres were shocking and distressing to them.

[Aharon]

TK on a 16 charisma Vrock is a pathetic attack. The modifier on the combat maneuver is low. Even if the maneuver succeeds it's a temporary inconvenience until the next check fails. And it not only disables the target, it disables the Vrock whether it succeeds or fails because it eats his turn.

I think Clustered Chaos was referring to the attack option. TK CL 12 equals 12 25 pound objects (=12 large greatswords, each dealing 3d6 damage).

Attack bonus is +13, not substantially worse than their standard attack array. Let's say a quarter of the attacks hit - that's still 9d6 damage. And it's actually likely that more of them hit.

[FMArthur]

I actually came pretty darn close to TPKing a group with a Web, Incendiary Slime (Sudden Widened) and Fireball combination. It looks super-inefficient at a round-by-round damage breakdown (roughly equivalent to two Fireballs), but that's not actually the whole picture.

The basic idea is that in the first two rounds of disabling, allies are able to do all the harm they can inflict from outside, and then after the fireball clears everything up the minions can move in to mop up the massively weakened enemy. Fire-resistant brutes with high strength can just wade in and attack since they'll resist the damage three times.

So the subjects are taking ongoing attacks and damage (AoE using enemies participate as well) and are severely limited in their ability to respond, and then they suddenly take a large amount of 'saved-up' damage in one single action. The brutes and other minions waiting outside the effect then have a clear path to locate and clear out survivors. It's several rounds' worth of free setup time and damage, and a way to use Web to facilitate combat instead of just putting everything on hold in a huge obscuring net. Why not just leave them in the Web is a combat solution for PCs but not for NPCs who are actually using it to accomplish a job.

[Clustered Chaos]

How do they attack without coming out though? It's not like PCs will stand next to the wall after the first hit.

The thing I noticed on flyby attack is that it doesn't seem to prevent attacks of opportunity for moving like spring attack does.

It can be any solid object. It can be the floor or ceiling. As long as they're close to it, it can hit them. If they're not close to it it can move around without coming out until it senses something and then attack.

Spring Attack only works vs one target. Since you either need Tumble or get AoOed a bunch of times anyways, there's no point in it and Flyby is better (and staying in the wall is better still).


TK on a 16 charisma Vrock is a pathetic attack. The modifier on the combat maneuver is low. Even if the maneuver succeeds it's a temporary inconvenience until the next check fails. And it not only disables the target, it disables the Vrock whether it succeeds or fails because it eats his turn.

36d6 damage is a pathetic attack? Perhaps it could be, but it is far beyond what its full attack deals out.

...If you wanted the Vrock to use it for combat maneuvers you'd give it Swift Concentration. Which is a fairly good idea, but I think the focus of this thread is more on default tactics sucking and less on how a potential rewrite could fix those problems.

Its default tactics has it diving down, attacking with its claws and doing negligible damage, then the people that don't want to be in melee move away and the ones that do full attack and it dies. On a creature that could be doing 36d6 a round with 8 mirror images while flying.

Even without 12 large greatswords to throw around TK still does much more damage than its full attack much more reliably.

[nedz]

Thanks! I guess that advice is only solid if you're absolutely sure that the fireball will kill your opponent!

I actually had a player do this once; I was a little suprised by the tactic. They were quite low level. Basically it puts some of the enemy on hold, denying them actions, until you are ready to deal with them and then softens them up with a Fireball plus an additional 2d4 (no save IIRC). Its probably optimal about 5th level, which is when he did it. Divide and Conquer I suppose ? He never did do it again though ?

[Sutremaine]

No save, correct. If you're at a level where an inflammatory spell is relevant, it's a pretty good idea to Fireball a Web as close as possible to its expiry time. You're going to have to deal with anybody still in the Web in a couple of seconds anyway, and this way you get 2d4 free damage on top of your spell.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Do you count bad build-advices?

"Dragons favor Alertness, Blind-Fight, Cleave, Flyby Attack, Hover, Improved Initiative, Improved Sunder, Power Attack, Snatch, Weapon Focus (claw or bite), Wingover, and any metamagic feat that is available and useful to sorcerers. "

Dragons already have high attack bonuses and weapon focus seems like peanuts. If your attack bonus is +24 or something like this, do you really want to raise it to +25? Seriously, is there any need?
That should read "improved natural attack (claw or bite)" especially because if the dragon needs to close the distance to attack in melee, it's useful to start with a diving claw attack (which inflicts double damage). If I were a large dragon, I'd find a claw attack +24 with 2d6+Str bonus a little bit more useful than a claw attack +25 with 1d8+Str...


While the Hobgoblins from the MM5 have little to no excuse, Dragons of the Metallic/Chromatic varieties do. Mainly given by when they were published. when they were published, maybe 5% of 3.5e's eventual feat total was released.

They simply didn't have access to some of the nice things that they could have now (Draconomicon, Shape Soulmeld, ACF Pouncebarian, etc...)

[RandomLunatic]

It can be any solid object. It can be the floor or ceiling. As long as they're close to it, it can hit them. If they're not close to it it can move around without coming out until it senses something and then attack.

Spring Attack only works vs one target. Since you either need Tumble or get AoOed a bunch of times anyways, there's no point in it and Flyby is better (and staying in the wall is better still).
Thing is, hiding in the walls will not save you from counterattack either.


An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own. It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. In order to see farther from the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge. An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks. An incorporeal creature cannot pass through a force effect. Bolding mine.

And by level 11, I would expect the whole party to be able to fly, thus depriving the wraith of anything close enough to strike from, without the use of Flyby or Spring Attack. Granted, the former is better, but chalk it up to WoTC's incompetence at builds.

[Talakeal]

Thing is, hiding in the walls will not save you from counterattack either.

Bolding mine.

And by level 11, I would expect the whole party to be able to fly, thus depriving the wraith of anything close enough to strike from, without the use of Flyby or Spring Attack. Granted, the former is better, but chalk it up to WoTC's incompetence at builds.

Aren't dread wraiths listed as inhabiting ancient catacombs and temples? I doubt the wraith (who also has a fly speed) is going to be encountered someplace where the PCs can hover that far away from any wall, ceiling, floor, or other solid object.

[The Glyphstone]

Aren't dread wraiths listed as inhabiting ancient catacombs and temples? I doubt the wraith (who also has a fly speed) is going to be encountered someplace where the PCs can hover that far away from any wall, ceiling, floor, or other solid object.

Yeah, that seems to be something people tend to forget - D&D is designed to be played in indoor environments as much as outdoor ones, it's even in the first half of the name. That's one of the big reasons why, in actual play, the 'If you can't fly by level 10, you're worthless' tends to be over-exaggerated, because all Flight does in the average dungeon environment is let you bypass floor-mounted traps.

[moritheil]

The Vrock. A creature who can fly, cast Mirror Image and Telekinesis at will, AoE Stun with a fairly high DC, and summon more Vrocks.

What do they do instead?

I'll agree; that always struck me as bad, though I discovered that playing a "smart Vrock" skirmisher pretty much ended in the party being mauled and the Vrock getting away, leaving them frustrated. I think there just isn't that much an at-EL party can do about it unless the Vrock is deliberately played dumb or they happen to be prepared to shut down a flying outsider that can teleport at will.

[Clustered Chaos]

Aren't dread wraiths listed as inhabiting ancient catacombs and temples? I doubt the wraith (who also has a fly speed) is going to be encountered someplace where the PCs can hover that far away from any wall, ceiling, floor, or other solid object.

That and it has daylight powerlessness so it is going to stay away from the sun, which means inside.

With the wall method it doesn't get AoOed and only takes readied actions if they're ranged or it is next to them, whereas with the come out of the wall methods it gets hit by all readied actions. I never said it was invulnerable, just better off.

Flight is useful inside, and not just for avoiding floor traps. It isn't so useful against the Dread Wraith since it can hide within the floor, walls, and ceiling and you have to be at least 15 feet away from all of those to be safe. Even then, it just forces a stalemate. It can stay in there forever. You can't.

As for the smart Vrock, there are things a party can do about it, starting with having the damage output to kill it quickly before it can mess up their game. This most likely means attacking blindly (to bypass Mirror Image) and then doing enough damage which isn't too hard to manage. It's more a factor of build than class. If you have people running around with swords and shields, the Vrock is going to do whatever its depraved mind desires to them and there's nothing they can do about it. Make them flying chargers and they stand a chance.

[The Glyphstone]

Or just an archer. Even a mildly optimized archer can hit AC22 (AC11 to kill a figment) reliably - a Bless Weapon to bypass the DR, and the vrock will have to retreat eventually.