Malimar
2012-04-21, 12:29 AM
Okay, let's assume, for the purpose of this thread, that:
The tier system (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293) is basically accurate;
We want to disincentivize players from playing high tiers, or at least make higher tiers slightly less of an auto-win button if players do choose to take them;
We don't necessarily want to incentivize players into playing low tiers, but we want to give them some tools to be more competitive with higher tiers;
We want a system to take the guesswork and DM judgement calls out of it, so DMs for whom WIS was a dump stat (myself included) can deal with tier problems reliably and without bias.
I like some of the solutions I've seen proposed (many of them in the original BGO thread), but a lot of them run into problems complications when they involve DM judgement calls, reduce character options, get weird when characters multiclass, or are just plain complicated. I recognize the potential irony of calling other solutions "complicated"; solutions always seem less complicated to their inventor than they do to the rest of the world.
I would bet cash money that something almost exactly like the idea I'm about to propose has already been proposed, probably better, by other people, probably by multiple other people. I can't find any such threads, but if anybody provides links to somebody else's similar system I can use or cannibalize ideas from, I'll just go to the corner and be quiet. Watch it be somewhere in the bowels of the 95 pages of the original threads.
So I was thinking of a system with the following structure:
Every time a player character takes a level in a tier 1 class, they gain U handicap points.
Every time a player character takes a level in a tier 2 class, they gain V handicap points.
Every time a player character takes a level in a tier 3 class, they gain W handicap points.
Every time a player character takes a level in a tier 4 class, they gain X handicap points.
Every time a player character takes a level in a tier 5 class, they gain Y handicap points.
Every time a player character takes a level in a tier 6 class, they gain Z handicap points.
Where U through Z are numbers. I'm kind of inclined to 0, 1, 2, 4, 8, and 16, respectively. Or maybe 0, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8. I'm definitely not committed to any of these numbers.
Every time you accumulate N number of handicap points, you can spend them on benefit Q. Perhaps you can choose from a small list of possible Qs, such as:
You gain a bonus feat of your choice that you qualify for.
Your level adjustment is reduced by 1 (minimum 0).
You gain an LA+1 template, but your LA does not go up.
You gain an LA+2 template, but your LA does not go up.
I might, for example, be inclined to give these prices of 15, 20, 21, and 43, respectively. Or maybe 10, 15, 16, 33. Or maybe the average LA+2 template is worth slightly less than half of two average LA+1 templates, not slightly more. Maybe an LA+1 template is worth slightly less than 1 level of LA buyoff, not slightly more. Again, not committed.
So I guess here are the relevant questions, soliciting the Playground's opinion:
Is a system along these lines just an unsalvageable mess from the get-go? Why?
Now pretend, for just a moment, that it isn't:
What numbers would you assign to handicaps U through Z?
What prices (N) would you assign to the given benefits (Q)?
Should LA buyoff scale by your starting LA in some way like Unearthed Arcana's default LA buyoff does?
What other benefits (Q) might be appropriate? Should free templates with higher LA than +1 or +2 ever be an option?
How to handle monster classes? (Treat them as tier 4? Tier 5? Tier 3?)
How to handle prestige classes? (Consult the prestige class tier thread (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0)? Treat them as whatever you entered them with? Treat them all as tier 3? 1? 2?)
The tier system (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293) is basically accurate;
We want to disincentivize players from playing high tiers, or at least make higher tiers slightly less of an auto-win button if players do choose to take them;
We don't necessarily want to incentivize players into playing low tiers, but we want to give them some tools to be more competitive with higher tiers;
We want a system to take the guesswork and DM judgement calls out of it, so DMs for whom WIS was a dump stat (myself included) can deal with tier problems reliably and without bias.
I like some of the solutions I've seen proposed (many of them in the original BGO thread), but a lot of them run into problems complications when they involve DM judgement calls, reduce character options, get weird when characters multiclass, or are just plain complicated. I recognize the potential irony of calling other solutions "complicated"; solutions always seem less complicated to their inventor than they do to the rest of the world.
I would bet cash money that something almost exactly like the idea I'm about to propose has already been proposed, probably better, by other people, probably by multiple other people. I can't find any such threads, but if anybody provides links to somebody else's similar system I can use or cannibalize ideas from, I'll just go to the corner and be quiet. Watch it be somewhere in the bowels of the 95 pages of the original threads.
So I was thinking of a system with the following structure:
Every time a player character takes a level in a tier 1 class, they gain U handicap points.
Every time a player character takes a level in a tier 2 class, they gain V handicap points.
Every time a player character takes a level in a tier 3 class, they gain W handicap points.
Every time a player character takes a level in a tier 4 class, they gain X handicap points.
Every time a player character takes a level in a tier 5 class, they gain Y handicap points.
Every time a player character takes a level in a tier 6 class, they gain Z handicap points.
Where U through Z are numbers. I'm kind of inclined to 0, 1, 2, 4, 8, and 16, respectively. Or maybe 0, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8. I'm definitely not committed to any of these numbers.
Every time you accumulate N number of handicap points, you can spend them on benefit Q. Perhaps you can choose from a small list of possible Qs, such as:
You gain a bonus feat of your choice that you qualify for.
Your level adjustment is reduced by 1 (minimum 0).
You gain an LA+1 template, but your LA does not go up.
You gain an LA+2 template, but your LA does not go up.
I might, for example, be inclined to give these prices of 15, 20, 21, and 43, respectively. Or maybe 10, 15, 16, 33. Or maybe the average LA+2 template is worth slightly less than half of two average LA+1 templates, not slightly more. Maybe an LA+1 template is worth slightly less than 1 level of LA buyoff, not slightly more. Again, not committed.
So I guess here are the relevant questions, soliciting the Playground's opinion:
Is a system along these lines just an unsalvageable mess from the get-go? Why?
Now pretend, for just a moment, that it isn't:
What numbers would you assign to handicaps U through Z?
What prices (N) would you assign to the given benefits (Q)?
Should LA buyoff scale by your starting LA in some way like Unearthed Arcana's default LA buyoff does?
What other benefits (Q) might be appropriate? Should free templates with higher LA than +1 or +2 ever be an option?
How to handle monster classes? (Treat them as tier 4? Tier 5? Tier 3?)
How to handle prestige classes? (Consult the prestige class tier thread (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0)? Treat them as whatever you entered them with? Treat them all as tier 3? 1? 2?)