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View Full Version : Handicap System for Tiers? [3.5e]



Malimar
2012-04-21, 12:29 AM
Okay, let's assume, for the purpose of this thread, that:

The tier system (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293) is basically accurate;
We want to disincentivize players from playing high tiers, or at least make higher tiers slightly less of an auto-win button if players do choose to take them;
We don't necessarily want to incentivize players into playing low tiers, but we want to give them some tools to be more competitive with higher tiers;
We want a system to take the guesswork and DM judgement calls out of it, so DMs for whom WIS was a dump stat (myself included) can deal with tier problems reliably and without bias.


I like some of the solutions I've seen proposed (many of them in the original BGO thread), but a lot of them run into problems complications when they involve DM judgement calls, reduce character options, get weird when characters multiclass, or are just plain complicated. I recognize the potential irony of calling other solutions "complicated"; solutions always seem less complicated to their inventor than they do to the rest of the world.

I would bet cash money that something almost exactly like the idea I'm about to propose has already been proposed, probably better, by other people, probably by multiple other people. I can't find any such threads, but if anybody provides links to somebody else's similar system I can use or cannibalize ideas from, I'll just go to the corner and be quiet. Watch it be somewhere in the bowels of the 95 pages of the original threads.

So I was thinking of a system with the following structure:

Every time a player character takes a level in a tier 1 class, they gain U handicap points.
Every time a player character takes a level in a tier 2 class, they gain V handicap points.
Every time a player character takes a level in a tier 3 class, they gain W handicap points.
Every time a player character takes a level in a tier 4 class, they gain X handicap points.
Every time a player character takes a level in a tier 5 class, they gain Y handicap points.
Every time a player character takes a level in a tier 6 class, they gain Z handicap points.

Where U through Z are numbers. I'm kind of inclined to 0, 1, 2, 4, 8, and 16, respectively. Or maybe 0, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8. I'm definitely not committed to any of these numbers.

Every time you accumulate N number of handicap points, you can spend them on benefit Q. Perhaps you can choose from a small list of possible Qs, such as:
You gain a bonus feat of your choice that you qualify for.
Your level adjustment is reduced by 1 (minimum 0).
You gain an LA+1 template, but your LA does not go up.
You gain an LA+2 template, but your LA does not go up.

I might, for example, be inclined to give these prices of 15, 20, 21, and 43, respectively. Or maybe 10, 15, 16, 33. Or maybe the average LA+2 template is worth slightly less than half of two average LA+1 templates, not slightly more. Maybe an LA+1 template is worth slightly less than 1 level of LA buyoff, not slightly more. Again, not committed.

So I guess here are the relevant questions, soliciting the Playground's opinion:

Is a system along these lines just an unsalvageable mess from the get-go? Why?
Now pretend, for just a moment, that it isn't:
What numbers would you assign to handicaps U through Z?
What prices (N) would you assign to the given benefits (Q)?
Should LA buyoff scale by your starting LA in some way like Unearthed Arcana's default LA buyoff does?
What other benefits (Q) might be appropriate? Should free templates with higher LA than +1 or +2 ever be an option?
How to handle monster classes? (Treat them as tier 4? Tier 5? Tier 3?)
How to handle prestige classes? (Consult the prestige class tier thread (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0)? Treat them as whatever you entered them with? Treat them all as tier 3? 1? 2?)

Reluctance
2012-04-21, 02:50 AM
Unless the feat system is significantly overhauled, bonus feats won't do anything. The Fighter is the perfect example of this. He has loads of 'em. They scale poorly and it's hard to leverage a decent number to be effective at the same time. It might be able to bridge between T2 and T1, but won't fix classes with fundamental flaws.

Templates are ... iffy. I'm sure that some exist that could be worth the levels in otherwise useless classes. That sounds like a high-op solution, when the same low-op players who pick failclasses will likely gravitate to low-op templates as well.

I guess you could create a whole new type of subsystem, where special powers can be unlocked by handicap points. If you have the time to create a whole new power-based system, that energy might be better spent fixing existing systems.

Eleven
2012-04-21, 04:30 AM
I've been imagining a similar project. I don't know if it is possible or not, and I think it would take a lot of work, but it might be worth it.

I think that the most interesting way to do with this would be through a partial gestalt. A certain number of handicap points lets you take some of the abilities of another class. Take a monk. It starts off pretty bad. If you gave it a mindblade and sneak attack, it could be cooler. Or give it binding. Or some some crazy homebrew concoctions. Or one of those and templates? In game, I think free legacy weapons and weird allies might be effective as well.

Special care, of course, should be taken by the DM not to marginalise another character by doing this. If your streetwise fighter could do some minor healing magic from patching up his crew, and you had no cleric, the party would experience a substantial boon from his presence.

If you wanted to mathematize it, check base class handbooks. Typically, they give a ranking of abilities (usually by colour?). You could convert this into a number, multiply by X, and divide by their tier.

Oh - I think using the tier system for PRCs, based on modifications of the base classes tier, would be perfectly fine. Monster classes are all over the map, although some of the ones from these boards are consistently balanced.

And finally, I think there are some issues that this isn't the best solution for. Some of the problems with base classes, I think, are structural and embedded; these need more direct (and potentially homebrew) solutions. Frankly, I think it would be interesting to play with some of the more powerful classes simply removed. There are arcane and divine classes that could replace the more problematic Tier 1s and in a more flavourful way. Especially the homebrews we've got here on these boards.

Chronologist
2012-04-21, 10:48 AM
Just a thought, why not use this system?

Characters gain levels in prestige classes based on their class's Tier level, and how many levels in the class they have. For multiclass characters, use the following formula:

(Class A Tier x levels) + (Class B Tier x levels) + (Class C Tier x levels) etc / total character level, rounded up. So a wizard 5 / fighter 2 would be (5x1) + (2x5) / 7 or Tier 2, just barely below Tier 1.

That might get a bit complicated, otherwise you can instead simply use whatever the highest Tier the character has, or average them rounded down. This might make Mystic Theurges and Arcane Archers very difficult to play.

Tier 1 - No prestige classes (0 levels total)
Tier 2 - 1 level at 6, 9, 12, 15, and 18 (5 levels total)
Tier 3 - 1 level at 6, 7, 9, 10, 12, 13, 15, 16, 18, and 19 (10 levels total)
Tier 4 - 1 level at 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, and 20 (15 levels total)
Tier 5 - 2 levels at 6, 9, 12, 15, and 18, 1 level at 7, 8, 10, 11, 13, 14, 16, 17, 19, and 20 (20 levels total)
Tier 6 - 2 levels at 6, 7, 9, 10, 12, 13, 15, 16, 18, and 19, and 1 level at 8, 11, 14, 17, and 20 (25 levels total).

Characters can take levels in a prestige class so long as they qualify for it, however they cannot take more than one level in a prestige class at any given character level. This prevents low-tier characters from rushing through to the ends of powerful prestige classes before they should have access to them.

This means that Wizards and Clerics are forced to single-class without extra options, sorcerers can dip a little, and classes like Bards, Fighters, and Samurai get a ton of extra fun options, without having to resort to picking and choosing abilities from "better" classes, or gaining templates they may not want.

The benefits also kick into gear at level 6, when the linear-fighter and quadratic-wizard issues really start to become noticeable.

What do you think?

Chaos_Laicosin
2012-04-21, 03:03 PM
You realize that the tier system only holds if the GM lets you recover your spells whenever you please. A "Tier 1" wizard that with a depleted spell pool is barely more useful than a commoner.

Personally, I don't let my players take 8 hour naps in cold, damp dungeons unless it is a unanimous party decision. And even then they need a bedroll and a fire or I won't consider it a restful sleep (no spell recovery and only 1/2 hp recovery). And if they are wandering around an enemy infested dungeon then I will throw enemies at them at any time, so they have to take turns as sentries. If an enemy happens to come along while they sleep then its not a restful sleep (no spells, 1/2 hp recovery). Because of all this, spell casters in my campaigns tend to be a little more sparing with the spells because the party generally won't stop just for them.

One time I had a noob that thought he was being hot stuff by going sorcerer. The campaign eventually led them to help defend a castle against an army of goblins (hundreds strong). Ranger was rapid shooting 3 a round, Fighter was whirlwind attacking 8 a round, Bard was buffing the castle guard with songs and firing off a bow, the NPC half-ogre/half-giant Barbarian was sweeping 12 aside each round with an over sized greatclub (uprooted tree). And within 4 rounds the sorcerer was basically useless. He had focused on evocation (the only spells a sorcerer should take according to him) and used up all his fireballs in the first 4 rounds, killing maybe 50. Then he started using scorching ray (woo!...) and when those ran out he tried a burning hands but was almost overrun by the enemies beyond the range of the spell. He retreated and started throwing rocks (he had no crossbow because "It's just a waste of inventory when you are a bad @$$ mage!"). Then eventually he left, like altogether left the room and didn't come back. He said I didn't DM correctly. The rest of my players always have a great time, so I suspect it was just him.

bobthe6th
2012-04-21, 03:49 PM
You realize that the tier system only holds if the GM lets you recover your spells whenever you please. A "Tier 1" wizard that with a depleted spell pool is barely more useful than a commoner.

and so you get a bored player, unable to do anything as he has no class features? why not just tell them they can't play high tier?



Personally, I don't let my players take 8 hour naps in cold, damp dungeons unless it is a unanimous party decision. And even then they need a bedroll and a fire or I won't consider it a restful sleep (no spell recovery and only 1/2 hp recovery). And if they are wandering around an enemy infested dungeon then I will throw enemies at them at any time, so they have to take turns as sentries. If an enemy happens to come along while they sleep then its not a restful sleep (no spells, 1/2 hp recovery). Because of all this, spell casters in my campaigns tend to be a little more sparing with the spells because the party generally won't stop just for them.

sot the answer is to make all T1 T5 98% of the time? not a good answer, as it marginalizes magic entirly. "so I'm a mage... and so I suck once I do 3 cool things per day..." just put a tier limit on the game so casters can be t3 warmages, DNs, and beguilers that you let rest. then you have happy players with level appropriate things to do that don't overshadow the party if they are played properly.



One time I had a noob that thought he was being hot stuff by going sorcerer. The campaign eventually led them to help defend a castle against an army of goblins (hundreds strong). Ranger was rapid shooting 3 a round, Fighter was whirlwind attacking 8 a round, Bard was buffing the castle guard with songs and firing off a bow, the NPC half-ogre/half-giant Barbarian was sweeping 12 aside each round with an over sized greatclub (uprooted tree). And within 4 rounds the sorcerer was basically useless. He had focused on evocation (the only spells a sorcerer should take according to him) and used up all his fireballs in the first 4 rounds, killing maybe 50. Then he started using scorching ray (woo!...) and when those ran out he tried a burning hands but was almost overrun by the enemies beyond the range of the spell. He retreated and started throwing rocks (he had no crossbow because "It's just a waste of inventory when you are a bad @$$ mage!"). Then eventually he left, like altogether left the room and didn't come back. He said I didn't DM correctly. The rest of my players always have a great time, so I suspect it was just him.

well... he wan't a good player and you didn't help the matter. the tier system asumes you are playing the class with some level of skill. but a flat out hored fight? and you let the mage suck? yeah, need to work on that, a lot. you should help the player have fun, not let him lose because he misunderstands the game. give him a staff of MM or something to keep him happy and useful without being insane. treat a badly played T2 as a low tier class, and help keep him up to snuff for the team. don't just laugh as the todler trips when trying to run, help it learn to walk. you get a helpful team player in place of a nucance that fouls up your game group.

Apalala
2012-04-21, 03:53 PM
I think the easiest method of handicapping--maybe not the most effective--would be to simply manipulate the Wealth by Level guidelines.

Tier 1: You get 1/10th.
Tier 2: You get 1/5th.
Tier 3: You get 1/2
Tier 4: You get the normal amount.
Tier 5: You get double.
Tier 6: You get triple.

Steward
2012-04-21, 04:39 PM
That's an interesting insight, Apalala, but I feel like many tier 1 characters do not rely as heavily on money and equipment as lower tier characters. The handicap would hurt them though since it would make it harder for wizards to build their spell lists but I have the feeling that druids, for example, would be unbothered.

Apalala
2012-04-21, 05:31 PM
Well, you could always tack on a "divine casters have to learn spells the same way a wizard does". Knowing EVERY SINGLE SPELL in their class always seemed a bit over the top to me anyhow.

ideasmith
2012-04-21, 09:26 PM
Well, you could always tack on a "divine casters have to learn spells the same way a wizard does". Knowing EVERY SINGLE SPELL in their class always seemed a bit over the top to me anyhow.

I prefer something that fits the fluff better. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233249)