OOTS #850 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Chess Tyrant]

Oh, this is gonna be good... I wonder if Tarquin really plans to take on the whole Order in melee?

Edit: I wonder if Tarquin is capable of taking on the whole Order in melee, or if he's going to rely on Malack/Zz'dtri to deal most of the damage?

[Dumbledore lives]

Amazing pose in that last panel, I wonder what Tarquin is planning.

[Ur-Quan]

Tarquin going in magnificently, time for a good fight :D

[Echon]

I wonder if any of them will pay attention to be fact that "Thog" said 'magnificent'.

[Delusion]

The title alone had me laughing.

Awesome as ever.

[Welf]

They are fighting a major villain and end boss without planing it in advance 3 hours real time/0,5 seconds game time? They are so screwed. Tarquin is truly a master of character and player manipulation. :smalltongue:

[Winter]

What a teaser. How does it go on? :smallbiggrin:

[Marlowe]

"Dark Elfy armour":smallconfused:

Well, at least that conveniently explains why it's registering an illusion.

[Cavenskull]

With Elan in the fight, I wonder if there will be any unexpected action or inaction from Tarquin?

[Cicciograna]

Tarquin is awesome.

I wonder what enchantment does that axe he wields carry.

[Winter]

I wonder if any of them will pay attention to be fact that "Thog" said 'magnificent'.

I think the small letters indicate it was very, very silent and only to himself (DC 35+ on the listen check if you want rules).

[Dandria]

So, Thog apparently likes purple. I'll be damned, what a shocking twist! That actually explains a lot, doesn't it?

Also, I guess it's finally time to see what class Tarquin is and how does he plan to win against five high level adventurers. If that's what he wants, of course.

[it17]

Normally I would say that jumping into melee by yourself, while you have superior ranged attack capability, and while you have denied your opponent the ability to close distance with you, would be stupid; but that is assuming that "Not-Thog" want's to win. But "Not-Thog" doesn't care that much about winning or losing, but rather he cares about looking really cool. And it is by far more cool to jump into a 5V1 melee confrontation and fight it out then snipe them from a distance

[mirtexxan]

...magnificient...
(stroking a white cat on his lap) :smallbiggrin:

[The Pilgrim]

Time for Tarquin to finally show us his fighting skills. It was about time he was involved on a real battle.

[Cavenskull]

So Thog apparently likes purple. I'll be damned, what a shocking twist!
Oddly enough though, looking back at the clothing store burglary (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0388.html), Thog didn't actually steal or mention purple clothes. And then there's that whole insistence on continuing to wear the Leprechaun outfit (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0392.html).

[Finagle]

I wonder if any of them will pay attention to be fact that "Thog" said 'magnificent'.
No, he said "Magnificent" using upper case and no bold letters. So, that was Tarquin's own voice, to himself.

A bit of the Blood Knight trope here. He's really relishing this. I suppose it's been quite a long while since Tarquin has been on a proper adventure and he's going to unveil his awesome fighting skills. What would a round-by-round look like with a high-level fighter vs. OOTS minus Vaarsuvius? The author did it for the Miko fight way back when. Or just a straight CR vs. CR comparison.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Oddly enough though, looking back at the clothing store burglary (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0388.html), Thog didn't actually steal or mention purple clothes. And then there's that whole insistence on continuing to wear the Leprechaun outfit (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0392.html).

Well, it was mentioned that his pants turned purple when he Raged... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html)

I'm sure Elan noticed, since it was dramatic!

EDIT: Can anyone make out the Runes on Tarquin's axe? Might not be enough to decrypt, or it might be a random word like "Slasher," but Rich loves to hide stuff. I remember Vaarsuvius' "This is not a Secret Message" secret message.

[ti'esar]

No, he said "Magnificent" using upper case and no bold letters. So, that was Tarquin's own voice, to himself.

That was the point - if anyone picked up on it, it could be a giveaway (not that I expect anyone did).

Anyway, next strip ought to be pretty good. I seriously doubt that Tarquin can take out the whole Order in melee, but with V gone I expect he can certainly hold his own for a few rounds (which might be another giveaway, actually, since Thog certainly couldn't).

[isoriveil]

Well, after their health has dropped somewhat due to application of two helpings of green solvent, not to mention the structural damage caused to their bodies by rapid descent from the levitating piece of fabric, I expect to witness in the nearest future two words: "Great Cleave".

[Cavenskull]

Well, it was mentioned that his pants turned purple when he Raged... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html)

I'm sure Elan noticed, since it was dramatic!

Oh! You mean the clothing store that specializes in free sets of striped clothing! :smalltongue:

[ti'esar]

Also, unrelated to the actual comic, it looks like that "last comic isn't updating" problem has cropped up again. Although the forums and archive show 850 as the newest comic, 849 still indicates that it is, and the "next" and "latest" buttons aren't working.

[ThomasMink]

Everyone's looking forward to seeing Tarquin's fighting skills. Honestly.. I'm more looking forward to seeing how exactly he's going to handle himself in battle against five opponents while impersonating Thog.

Will he continue to keep up the ruse for a round or two? Or has it already been a decent enough distraction in his mind?

Fun stuff ahead.

[ti'esar]

I think that speech he gave (and it was in-character, too!) suggests that Tarquin is genuinely attempting to create the idea that he has nothing to do with this latest Linear Guild attack. So no, the Thog thing is probably not just a distraction.

[ilcane87]

Why is everyone so surprised by this 5v1?
Miko did take on the Order (Vaarsuvius included) alone, twice, and won.

Tarquin is the new Miko in terms of relevance, so he's going to be comparatively stronger than the Order, nothing new here.

[Boogastreehouse]

You know, I think this is a critical moment; not because Tarquin in about to show us how awesome he is, but because he's about to show Roy how effective a thinking fighter can really be.

Roy is going to learn some new lessons from this fight, and that knowledge is going to save him in the battle with Xykon.

[oppyu]

The banjo returns! Elan and Belkar continue to have fun little exchanges as well.

[Man on Fire]

Somebody here is in for an unpleasant suprise.

[ref]

Magnificent indeed...

[Connington]

Why is everyone so surprised by this 5v1?
Miko did take on the Order (Vaarsuvius included) alone, twice, and won.

Tarquin is the new Miko in terms of relevance, so he's going to be comparatively stronger than the Order, nothing new here.

The Miko comparison is fair, but slightly questionable. Durkon will take part in the ass-kicking instead of just healing, Elan is more useful relative to his level this time, and Roy has his ancestral sword rather than a makeshift club. That probably compensates for V being out of the picture.

[Velarias]

I think not thog has an ace or two up his sleeve or possibly a deck. :smalltongue:

Que the finger pyramid of evil contemplation.

[ilcane87]

The Miko comparison is fair, but slightly questionable. Durkon will take part in the ass-kicking instead of just healing, Elan is more useful relative to his level this time, and Roy has his ancestral sword rather than a makeshift club. That probably compensates for V being out of the picture.

And don't forget the Order is conveniently injured by 2 Empowered Acid Orbs already.

Tarquin's inevitable flawless victory shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone. :smalltongue:

[BobVosh]

I'm still trying to figure out Tarquin's exact angle here.

[suszterpatt]

Tarquin's cover will be blown when his Charisma score starts oozing out of his helmet.

[Psychonaut]

I remember Vaarsuvius' "This is not a Secret Message" secret message.

When was this?

[Surfing HalfOrc]

When was this?

Right here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0635.html)

I don't remember the exact message, but it was along the lines of "I bet you think you found a secret message, but it's not."

It's the runes of power in the circle surrounding Darth Vaarsuvius.

[Crisis21]

Tarquin sums up my thoughts on this comic very nicely in the last panel.

[Nohar]

Ooooooh... This is going to be awesome.

Ok, sure, the OotS is going to have their asses handed to them, but still, it's going to be awesome.

I can't believe I'm rooting for Tarquin there. I feel dirty.

[ilcane87]

To further the Miko comparison, I bet the Pterodactyl will be the new Windstriker in this fight. :smallcool:

[Darkfyre99]

Somebody here is in for an unpleasant suprise.

And that somebody will be Roy (and the rest of the Order)...

[hobo386]

Perhaps he's just gathering the order up in one spot so that the Casters can lay down some more AoE spells?

[coineineagh]

Thog like purple?

After robbing the clothes store, I remember him being dressed very distinctively, and he wasn't purple. He really (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0386.html) wasn't.. I guess the store didn't have his favourite colour:smalltongue:

[Gift Jeraff]

I absolutely love the title.

[Sutremaine]

That probably compensates for V being out of the picture.
V was out of the picture during the Miko fight too. Two spells fizzled, Miko made her save against one, and she also made her save against the one that caught Roy in its AoE.

Vaarsuvius taking a nap at the bottom of that trap just means she can be out of the picture while literally being out of the picture.

[RMS Oceanic]

Indeed, the title is great.

I also like how he handled Durkon's True Seeing: Durkon is the only one not to have seen Tarquin's helmet, so he wouldn't have made the connection unlike Haley or Roy or Elan might have.

Of course, this still leaves the two outstanding questions:

- Why is Nale planning to drive them back? Is it to try and reveal where the gate is?
- Why doesn't Tarquin want the Order to realise who they're fighting? Is it just to keep his options open in case things go sour?

[zimmerwald1915]

Thog like purple?

After robbing the clothes store, I remember him being dressed very distinctively, and he wasn't purple. He really (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0386.html) wasn't.. I guess the store didn't have his favourite colour:smalltongue:
Perhaps the outfit that Elan didn't think he had the figure to pull off was purple?

[Psychonaut]

Right here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0635.html)

I don't remember the exact message, but it was along the lines of "I bet you think you found a secret message, but it's not."

It's the runes of power in the circle surrounding Darth Vaarsuvius.

Ah, I see. Thanks. :smallsmile:

[ThePhantasm]

Surely Tarquin can't hope to take down all of them? But then, I guess, maybe it is too much to hope that they can take down him before his "allies" arrive...

[Jay R]

I'm still trying to figure out Tarquin's exact angle here.

He seems to be coming in at about twenty degrees.


I think not thog has an ace or two up his sleeve or possibly a deck. :smalltongue:

Well, among other things, he has a pteranodon present that everybody in the order seems to have already forgotten.

[Aidjn]

A dollar on "Tarquin has class levels in something with manuevers."

[Stabbey]

I really like Tarquin's little speech because it shows he'd thought up a story just in case someone recognized the illusion on the armour. Magnificent.

[Talyn]

Well, in case anyone was still wondering whether Tarquin had the massive titanium stones he'd need to be a frontline fighter against the Order of the Stick...

[St Fan]

First blood: Tarquin!

Sheesh, there are still some people doubting that the General is of epic level here?

Ye of little faith....

[AlfredAmeoba]

So, "magnificent" magnificent or "osh-" magnificent?

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10546563&postcount=12) is some fighter feats The Giant wrote himself that might help Tarquin beat them all up. Even without this, though, Tarquin has formidable AC (Future Ms. Tarquin could barely hit him and Elan couldn't even come close), a ring of true seeing, a ring of regeneration, glammered was only "one" of his armor's enchantments, and an unknown magic axe. He could have a whole bunch more stuff that he carries with him.

If Roy can't hit him with Power Attack, and Haley and Belkar can't regularly beat his AC, they could have some serious issues from the get-go. And they are on a timer until the rest of the team arrives.

Good luck Order...

[Gift Jeraff]

Looking back at #822, Tarquin was talking about fighting Roy as a fellow strategist, not necessarily in a one-on-one duel.

[FAD!]

Surely Tarquin cannot expect to take them out by himself. Whatever, I'm still rooting for him. :smallsmile:

[Icedaemon]

He even knew 'Talky-Man'?

...

Maybe he can actually pull a Miko, except making it believable to boot.

Another thought: Assuming that Tarquin still plans on letting Elan live without wholly hating his dad, he would not strike fatal blows at neither Elan nor Haley. Given his promises to Malack, Durkon would likely also be spared. That leaves Roy and Belkar, one of whom was resurrected fairly recently...

[TheMeMan]

I'm still trying to figure out Tarquin's exact angle here.

Well, there are a few ways to look at it.

First is that by his personality, he's fighting them alone simply because it's awesome.

In this sense, he wins either way no matter what happens. Think back to when he was telling Elan about his plan. Elan tries to stop him, succeeds, Tarquin wins because he will have been a legend. Elan doesn't try to stop him, Tarquin wins because he'll live out his life in lavish luxury.

Same sort of thing. Tarquin loses, it's an epic battle worthy of a loss. Tarquin wins, it's an epic battle further proving Tarquin's power.

Further, it could be a distraction. He goes in, holds off the Order while the rest of the team goes to work doing their secret plan.

Or it could be a ploy to get Elan to kill him thus ensuring that a properly dramatic ending occurs when Tarquin removes the helmet to reveal that it was him all along, and that Elan slew his father in proper dramatic fashion.

Plenty of ways this could go, and oddly all in Tarquin's favor.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Except we've still got Team Evil coming in at a random time. Giant, I have no idea what's going to happen, except that it's going to be magnificent.

[Trixie]

Everyone's looking forward to seeing Tarquin's fighting skills. Honestly.. I'm more looking forward to seeing how exactly he's going to handle himself in battle against five opponents while impersonating Thog.

Yeah. I already see Roy pointing out a thing Thog should be never able to take/use, and Tarquin dropping the ruse.

For example, Barbarians don't like more than medium armour and the one he is wearing looks like heavy.


Why is everyone so surprised by this 5v1?
Miko did take on the Order (Vaarsuvius included) alone, twice, and won.

I'm kind of surprised they gang on him. Though, "Thog" attacked first, and he seems to be the only one reachable target, so it's understandable. Still, Haley and Durkon would be better used countering ranged attack.


Durkon will take part in the ass-kicking instead of just healing, Elan is more useful relative to his level this time, and Roy has his ancestral sword rather than a makeshift club.

I bet you Durkon will still heal (no epiphany for him), Elan will still be useless (MCLW? Seriously?) and Roy will stab himself in the foot by using PA.

Though, I'm very curious how Tarquin will counterpun this time.

[Nohar]

Another thought: Assuming that Tarquin still plans on letting Elan live without wholly hating his dad, he would not strike fatal blows at neither Elan nor Haley. Given his promises to Malack, Durkon would likely also be spared. That leaves Roy and Belkar, one of whom was resurrected fairly recently...

*blink*

*connect the dots*

Belkar is supposed to bite the dust soon. Elan just failed his Genre-Savvyness check. The OotS is overconfident.

Oh crap. Belkar is going to die soon.

[Roland Itiative]

This has probably been done to death already, but... magnificent strip.

And is it just me, or did Elan notice Tarquin's out-of-character moment on the last panel? He's the only OotS member without either a smile or an angry face.

[St Fan]

He even knew 'Talky-Man'?


Tarquin was watching the gladiator fight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0795.html) with rapt attention, and Thog was certainly loud enough to be heard, even over the arena spectators' ruckus, when he shouted "TALKY-MAN BROKE THOG'S TUSK!"

[elros]

I expect a lot of combat maneuvers where Tarquin disarms/disables everyone. And I wouldn't be surprised if he stops Nale from doing serious harm to Elan at the same time.
This the ultimate dramatic fight for Tarquin so it makes sense for him to be excited. Tarquin FTW!

[Pheldagriff]

I'm calling it now, Xykon will arrive in the next strip

[Icedaemon]

Nohar: Bingo.


Tarquin was watching the gladiator fight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0795.html) with rapt attention, and Thog was certainly loud enough to be heard, even over the arena spectators' ruckus, when he shouted "TALKY-MAN BROKE THOG'S TUSK!"

Of course! I forgot about him staying to watch.

[Valyrian]

Are people seriously believing Tarquin would put himself into danger because at worst he'd go down in a cool way?

Tarquin thinks in storylines, not action scenes. And would someone who's stupid enough to engage into a 5-on-1 while he has a full team at his disposal and then gets killed really make for a magnificent end of his story? I'm not a bard, but my storytelling senses register "anti-climax" here.

So either Tarquin is confident that he'll take down the Order on his own or will rely on the LG to help him out at some point.

[Marlowe]

For example, Barbarians don't like more than medium armour and the one he is wearing looks like heavy.


Mithral Fullplate counts as medium.

Also, Thog has two fighter levels.

[Duos Greanleef]

Magnificent.
This is precisely why Tarquin is a villain worth hating. I love his arrogance, one-liners, eye for the dramatic, and good characterization.
Giant, you've created a monster magnificent character.

[RickDaily12]

*blink*

*connect the dots*

Belkar is supposed to bite the dust soon. Elan just failed his Genre-Savvyness check. The OotS is overconfident.

Oh crap. Belkar is going to die soon.

Seriously? Stop it. I mean it, STOP.

I'm just about done with the "Omfg. Belkar is going to die HERE" comments that we hear EVERY SINGLE FIGHT the Order enters since we've heard the Oracle re-confirm the prophecy. Guys, really, stop guessing. It's like circling all the options on a multiple choice test. If you do not have a reason for circling one, then you can only guess, because you have no reason to go back on while you guess at them. Or you can circle all of them, just to say "I answered Belkar's death wrong every single time, until he FINALLY died when I said he would". Like, guys, I don't think Rich is going to time out Belkar's death before the end of the comic year, sure, but do I really think Belkar is going to be absent one of their most dramatic battles ever (namely, with Team Evil and at a gate with a rampant soul eating machine?)

No. No, I do not. :smallannoyed: So please stop circling all the choices.

On a side-note, yes, I'm a bit annoyed with Tarquin's joy of flying in with that big grin on his face, the Order's large disadvantagous position presently, and overall, Vaarsuvius being rendered useless during every single important fight they fly into. Yes, I understand that V is a very good wizard at the Order's level, and would probably be the strongest link of the team during the fight if protected well enough. BUT, part of why Tarquin is doing this has to be the joy of "Leader versus Leader's Strategy" to see who is more fit at that role, and naturally, Vaarsuvius is down, and the situation looks even less pretty. And the last fight, Vaarsuvius was only active to remove their wizard... because Z was too powerful for the Order last time...

There are ways to tone down wizards without preemptively removing them. But honestly? This twist is almost getting used as often as "Explosive Runes", only I'm not happy once I see it show up. Is there really no other way to bring the Order to V's level without completely rendering the elf as useless?

[kierthos]

I don't see Tarquin being able to manipulate the OotS into thinking he's Thog for too horribly long. For one thing, if he starts using any sort of tactical prowess, it's going to let on that he's not a dumb barbarian.

Also, and possibly more likely, if Nale gets down there, he might inadvertently let slip that it's not Thog.

Finally, if Malack and Nale are both in the OotS's view at once, at the very least Nale, Durkon and/or Haley will know something is up, because they all know Malack hates Nale.

[angroy]

Plenty of ways this could go, and oddly all in Tarquin's favor.

Yes, but I don't think Tarquin is planning on dying yet - him and Elan's final showdown needs more buildup than this - and I assume he must be confident he can take them all at once. Anyway, the ensueing battle will either be epic or anticlimatic.

[King of Nowhere]

now tarquin is really scaring me. he knows how strong the oots is, and he is not stupid, so he knows he can take them.
Maybe the ideas that put him as a fair fight for Xykon weren't totally unfounded after all.

[willpell]

Well, after their health has dropped somewhat due to application of two helpings of green solvent, not to mention the structural damage caused to their bodies by rapid descent from the levitating piece of fabric, I expect to witness in the nearest future two words: "Great Cleave".

Thog has boobies!

[semi]

When Tarquin said "Magnificent" did anyone have a flashback to The Three Musketeers when they made their final charge? Well, I mean the charge was done by the musketeers but it was in the Man in the Iron Mask. Horrible movie but anyways... did anyone? If so, things didn't turn out all that awesome from the perspective of the chargers even though they were assaulting a woefully inexperienced group, unlike what the OoTS is about to encounter. Probably way too much "I saw something similar in a movie, so I'm sure the strip will play out the same way" but it doesn't change the fact that when I read Tarquin's final line in the strip I thought about a really bad Leo DiCaprio movie.

[RickDaily12]

Yes, but I don't think Tarquin is planning on dying yet - him and Elan's final showdown needs more buildup than this - and I assume he must be confident he can take them all at once. Anyway, the ensueing battle will either be epic or anticlimatic.

But now we have conflicting motives on Tarquin's end.

If he goes in and defeats them all, The Order dies. Elan is especially counted in with this, because Nale targets him specifically every single battle they go into, and Sabine was VERY CLOSE to killing Elan once and for all. Tarquin, on the other hand, wants to see Elan battle him to decide the fate of the empire. So clearly, Tarquin didn't go in wanting to knock them all down. It wouldn't work.

On the flipside, if Tarquin is defeated by the Order (though this I find more doubtful) and he ends up dying in this battle due to his recklessness, Tarquin still doesn't have the final climatic battle over the Empire that he wanted with just him and Elan. This still doesn't work for Tarquin, so this can't be what he planned for either. So him losing doesn't fly, either.

I'm not really sure why Tarquin flew into this battle the way he did, because either way, the sake of winning or losing the battle doesn't work well for him, at all. If I had to guess, the want of being badass and wanting to battle Roy seems to be a strong clue, but that alone seems too simple to be the only reason, if you ask me...

[Bharg]

Someone else thinking his bluff is surprisingly bad?

Awesome comic with the worst cliffhanger ever... :smallfrown:

[t209]

It's about time (for Elan to use his lute).
I think haley has a point. They should dig in the temple and set up an ambush.
I think Orders are screwed or if Tarquin will have honor of a Predator.

[Finagle]

When Tarquin said "Magnificent" did anyone have a flashback to The Three Musketeers when they made their final charge?
Funny, I thought The Three Musketeers was a novel. Written in 1844. :smallamused:

[Nohar]

[...]

Hum... Calm down, please ? I just stated my hypothesis, you don't need to get so worked up all over it, especially if you read said hypothesis as often as you said you did - shouldn't you be used to it by now ? No need to vent your anger on me, geez.

[willpell]

There are ways to tone down wizards without preemptively removing them. But honestly? This twist is almost getting used as often as "Explosive Runes", only I'm not happy once I see it show up. Is there really no other way to bring the Order to V's level without completely rendering the elf as useless?

With a few exceptions like Medium goblins and sylphs (whis is a flavor/setting issue more than a significant rules change), this comic still sticks to canon rules pretty religiously; it would be a disappointment if too many house rules cropped up and caused things to play out other than they would in a by-the-book D&D game. And Vaarsuvius at least certainly seems to believe quite confidently that the wizard is the most powerful class in the game (this is especially made clear in the Snails and Dragon Tails comic where the OOTS fight their 4E counterparts). So if there is a way to make fighters less Linear and wizards less Quadratic, we nonetheless aren't likely to see it here. I expect Tarquin is extremely optimized and probably about 20th level (I doubt he's epic, if only because it would steal Xykon's thunder a bit), plus it's pretty likely that he's way above his Wealth By Level, and as has been pointed out on this forum, Armor Class is largely derived therefrom. So removing the extremely powerful spellcaster who doesn't need to make a melee touch attack in order to deal damage seems like an extremely necessary balance, if this fight isn't to be decided by lame save-or-die effects and More Area-Effect Dakka.

Not only would raining arcane destruction down on a fighter make him more likely to lose, but it would make him less interesting and less awesome in the process of either winning or losing - he makes his saving throw or he doesn't, but there's not much in the way of clever maneuvering or decisive blows being traded. If you want a good cinematic combat in D&D world, wizards are not your friends. (Clerics aren't really either, but the nastier cleric spells largely tend to lean evil and chaotic so Durkon is probably not loaded for bear the way an Erythnulite or the like would be.)

[Madwand]

Is there really no other way to bring the Order to V's level without completely rendering the elf as useless?

Well, V can be killed for real. But you have good point here, even considering that V has banned the best (most plot-problematic) school of magic.

[Gift Jeraff]

The best way to a) take care of Thog quickly, and b) realize it's not Thog, would be to target his Will save. Historically, he's 0:4 on failing those. Though the OOTS might just figure Z, the new divine caster, and/or Tarquin's items significantly boosted his saving throws.

[Grey Watcher]

200 Quatloos says Thog manages to show up, somehow, and leave the Order utterly confused!

No, I have no idea how he'd get there. I just think it'd be funny. :smalltongue:

[Dracarot]

I think I have a hypothesis for Tarquin's plan.

HIs intention is in fact to lose and die, and when his helmet is removed from his corpse Elan will have a "My God What Have We Done?" moment, leaving plenty of room for angsting about his actions.

Plenty of room for Malack (or another cleric he might have waiting in reserve) to ressurect him and cause Elan to think he was playing with his emotions and thus leading to a true ultimate showdown.

Somewhat crazy but then most hypotheses are.

[Emperor Flumph]

Tarquin's dialogue in panel 5 is brilliant. He pre-empts and and allays all reasons to Order would have to suspect he's not Thog, and he does it in a completely natural way that doesn't sound like he's trying to convince them he's Thog. Bravo, Tarquin and bravo, Giant.

[Incendax]

All the zombie stink has temporarily been blown away by the winds.
Belkar will now be able to smell that he is not Thog.

[Forikroder]

hopefully people wont try and say that tarquin has some uber master plan to set it all straight, he probably jsut plans to hold on long enough that there current wounds + any additional damage forces them to retreat

[Lintecarka]

Can't wait for the next strip.

Still I can't quite agree the explanations about his armor seemed like something thog would do, but its not like I'm complaining. I don't think tarquin can or does hope to keep his cover for extended periods and we are in for some dramatic stuff soon.

Then again you can never know, even Nale was bluffing the order for quite some time.

[LordVader]

5v1? This isn't even going to be a fair fight.
...
For the Order, that is.

Tarquin continues to grow more and more awesome. He's easily the best character of the comic at this point.

[Forikroder]

Can't wait for the next strip.

Still I can't quite agree the explanations about his armor seemed like something thog would do, but its not like I'm complaining. I don't think tarquin can or does hope to keep his cover for extended periods and we are in for some dramatic stuff soon.

Then again you can never know, even Nale was bluffing the order for quite some time.

as soon as they start trading blows its gonna be impossible for them to tell hes thog unless he really messes up

[deuxhero]

The title is a call back to my favorite OotS gag. Joy.

[LordVader]

The unholy ass-kicking Tarquin's about to dispense will no likely ensure that they're too busy fighting for their lives to think about who they're fighting, I think.

[Trixie]

Mithral Fullplate counts as medium.

Also, Thog has two fighter levels.

Counts as, but is it confirmed Mithral exists in OotS verse or is common enough to be known? After all, at least 2-3 OotS members could use Mithral armours, and yet, don't have them.

And when you have 16+ levels, nerfing your 14+ level class to use 2 level one is kinda bad idea, IMHO.

[jafar]

Does anyone else see opportunity for V "redemption" in this series?

Here's my scenario: Order gets captured, V continues self-pity trip until V figures out that party needs V, V comes to rescue gets mojo back.

Frankly, the Order does not have a chance without V and even with V this scenario plays badly.

Also, don't you feel that Tarquin is suckering them in like Miko did with the Ogres so long ago? Bet he has some sweet protection spells on him. :smallamused:

[Willis888]

Will a Ring of Regeneration still bring a character back to life?

Maybe Tarquin has Thog in custody, but want the Order to think Thog is dead. If his ring is a safety net, he can 'lose' this fight and provide the Order with Thog's 'body'.

[Kish]

Seriously? Stop it. I mean it, STOP.

I'm just about done with the "Omfg. Belkar is going to die HERE" comments that we hear EVERY SINGLE FIGHT the Order enters since we've heard the Oracle re-confirm the prophecy.
I'm inclined to be philosophical about it, myself.

I mean--it's a lot better than "Those were the four words!" every time Vaarsuvius opened his/her mouth* from the moment his/her prophecy was made to the time it was fulfilled. When Belkar dies, the speculation will simply jump to when Durkon will die. And since Durkon's death doesn't have a particular stated time frame, it may well remain there for the rest of the comic's run.

*Vaarsuvius having said more than four words was no defense, as the posters would simply pick out four of the words s/he had said and declare that the Oracle never said the Right Four Words would not be buried in 71 non-right words.

[Forikroder]

Will a Ring of Regeneration still bring a character back to life?

Maybe Tarquin has Thog in custody, but want the Order to think Thog is dead. If his ring is a safety net, he can 'lose' this fight and provide the Order with Thog's 'body'.

thats so needlessly complicated and doesnt actually do anything at all

and no the ring cant bring the dead to life hed need malack to ressurect him

the only purpose of that plan would be to show the OoTS that thog is dead although i dont see whytarquin woud want the OoTS to think thos is dead

and how would he even switch the bodys?

[AGow95]

I think they may get their butts kicked, seeing as they're expecting to fight the Barbarian Thog and are actually fighting the (most likely) much higher level genius Tarquin

[RMS Oceanic]

All the zombie stink has temporarily been blown away by the winds.
Belkar will now be able to smell that he is not Thog.

Maybe he's got sand up his nose. :smalltongue:

[Castamir]

For example, Barbarians don't like more than medium armour and the one he is wearing looks like heavy.
It looks almost exactly the same as the one Roy is wearing, and we know Roy's is medium.

[MoonCat]

...

****.

In other words, HA! Brilliant! I'm looking forward to see what happens nxt, I honestly don't know.

[Dr.Epic]

Dispel Magic Nuts? Best spell ever!

[Nephrahim]

It looks almost exactly the same as the one Roy is wearing, and we know Roy's is medium.

The stick figure style makes his helmet look bigger then the entire armor, probably gives the illusion of it being heavier, but yeah, armor looks the same as Roy's besides the helm.

[Forikroder]

Maybe he's got sand up his nose. :smalltongue:

maybe since hes met Tarquin only a couple times and knows that Thog is wearing stolen armour and doesnt know thogs smell that well that he has no idea thats somethings up based purely on smell

[kierthos]

Maybe he's got sand up his nose. :smalltongue:Or some acid. I mean, Durkon cast Mass Resist Acid, so it could be clogging his delicate halfling sense of smell and not be actually doing any damage.

That being said, I am looking forward to "THOR'S MIGHT" *smash not-Thog*

[Dr.Epic]

Shouldn't Durkon also be able to notice the helmet is an illusion?

[Forikroder]

Shouldn't Durkon also be able to notice the helmet is an illusion?

adn he sees another helmet he cant tell whos wearing the armour and has no reason to think its not thog

[Sajach]

What the heck did he mean by magnificent?

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

And Belkar is essentially right about V taking a nap.

[kierthos]

What the heck did he mean by magnificent?It's a potentially climactic battle between an arch-villain (Tarquin) and the forces of good (the OotS, and in the case of Belkar, the forces of bloody violence).

What else would be it but magnificent?

Honestly, if he hadn't ridden a Pterodactyl into battle, Tarquin would have charged in on a jet-black stallion.

[Winter]

Does anyone else see opportunity for V "redemption" in this series?

No. "Redemption" for Genocide requires much more than "helping your friends in a single fight".

I, in fact, think there is no redemption at all for Vaarsuvius. There are some things in life where you simply have to accept the consequences for your deeds and suck it up. As much as you might regret what you did, there simply is no redemption for what you did. Genocide commited for selfish reasons (no matter who are what the targets are) is one of them.

But let's not derail this thread into another pointless "Vaasuvius & The Stunt with the Dragons (and other People)" discussion.

---

I'm very eager to find out what the Order does when they find out they're facing an epic fighter here (if Tarquin can stand his ground against a full party level 14 to 16, he has to be higher than just "18ish-20"). How long will it take them to realise this is not-thog?

[Mr. Pants]

I get the feeling that Tarquin might have gone over his head...

[rbetieh]

Not thog loves exposition. Now we know why V isn't there, V would either have seen through this using logic or not cared.

[Bulldog Psion]

I think they may get their butts kicked, seeing as they're expecting to fight the Barbarian Thog and are actually fighting the (most likely) much higher level genius Tarquin

There's some in-comic evidence that Tarquin is quite a bit higher level than the Order. Specifically, in the first frame of this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0813.html), Tarquin says to Roy "it's like something I'd have done when I was your level".

Knowing how genre-savvy T is, he probably has a decent idea of what level Roy and his friends are. And "when I was your level" implies that there isn't just a one or two level difference.

In our world, someone 25 doesn't say to somebody 23 "back when I was your age". There's usually a significant gap of years.

So, when Tarquin says "when I was your level", he's strongly implying that there's a notable difference in their levels and it was a long time ago that he was merely at Roy's level. Food for thought, mayhaps.

[Mutant Sheep]

Oh hoo hoooooo, fight! I'm expecting a cutaway to V's body sitting around as Girard shows up on a large screen insulting him and showing he knows most of the past story arcs but is confident he can take on the LG. And then is gutstabbed by Xykon's hand.

[MeanMrsMustard]

Well, I was expecting the battle to start sooner, but this is great anyway!
I now fully realize how brilliant this move was: The only member of the Order who hasn't seen Tarquin wearing his helmet is Durkon, so he wouldn't know that it's Tarquin pretending to be Thog.
Again, can't wait for the next strip! (I should probably put that in my signature.)

[Gift Jeraff]

There's some in-comic evidence that Tarquin is quite a bit higher level than the Order. Specifically, in the first frame of this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0813.html), Tarquin says to Roy "it's like something I'd have done when I was your level".

Knowing how genre-savvy T is, he probably has a decent idea of what level Roy and his friends are. And "when I was your level" implies that there isn't just a one or two level difference.

In our world, someone 25 doesn't say to somebody 23 "back when I was your age". There's usually a significant gap of years.

So, when Tarquin says "when I was your level", he's strongly implying that there's a notable difference in their levels and it was a long time ago that he was merely at Roy's level. Food for thought, mayhaps.But Tarquin loves playing word games, and implying he's significantly higher level than Roy is a good way of establishing dominance. He can be the same level as Roy and "when I was your level" is still technically true. I personally think he is significantly higher level than Roy (mostly because Roy fell behind by being dead and losing a level), but just sayin'.

[Kish]

I think Tarquin is probably higher level than Roy just because, much as I would love to be wrong here, I don't think the impending Tarquin-vs.-the-Order battle is going to feature Tarquin getting massively, effortlessly curbstomped.

[SoC175]

I get the feeling that Tarquin might have gone over his head...I think that Tarquin doesn't realy plan to fight them, he's just luring them into the right spot to be hit with something nasty against which he's wearing the right item

[LordVader]

But Tarquin loves playing word games, and implying he's significantly higher level than Roy is a good way of establishing dominance. He can be the same level as Roy and "when I was your level" is still technically true. I personally think he is significantly higher level than Roy (mostly because Roy fell behind by being dead and losing a level), but just sayin'.

Tarquin wouldn't take on the entire Order without some kind of a plan, and I think we're about to see him mop the floor with them to emphasize just how strong he is.

The Order are, what, in their 20s? Early 30s, at the latest? (And relative ages for V and Durkon).

Tarquin's been adventuring for his entire adult life, and has been in constant struggle as a result. He's going to be really freaking high level.

[fruityjanitor]

Can't wait for this fight! Hopefully it doesn't get anticlimatically interrupted...

Judging by Tarquin's reaction, they are playing right into his hands. I'm betting this fight ends with the Order being captured by the Guild. Or maybe a few getting captured and a few beating a tactical retreat.

I wonder if he has some magic items to trap some of them, or maybe he's relying on his pteradon or the casters to incapacitate some of them.

[Forikroder]

There's some in-comic evidence that Tarquin is quite a bit higher level than the Order. Specifically, in the first frame of this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0813.html), Tarquin says to Roy "it's like something I'd have done when I was your level".

Knowing how genre-savvy T is, he probably has a decent idea of what level Roy and his friends are. And "when I was your level" implies that there isn't just a one or two level difference.

In our world, someone 25 doesn't say to somebody 23 "back when I was your age". There's usually a significant gap of years.

So, when Tarquin says "when I was your level", he's strongly implying that there's a notable difference in their levels and it was a long time ago that he was merely at Roy's level. Food for thought, mayhaps.

teh difference between level 16 and 18 is huge looking back 2 levels is looking back a long time

[Oshirokita]

Wow, I just love the setup in this strip. Tarquin displays his ego while at the same time using misdirection. I think he wants to test the mettle of the OOTS in action together, while at the same time showing his superiority.

Also, I am really hoping his "magnificent" means that he is about to ally WITH the OOTS after a few rounds of melee and turn against Nale, which his comments to Malack earlier seem to presage.

So many possibilities, I can't wait to see how this unfolds.

[RMS Oceanic]

That being said, I am looking forward to "THOR'S MIGHT" *smash not-Thog*

I was hoping that would happen if Malack and Durkon got down to a Cleric on Cleric fight:

M: Destruction!
D: Made mah savin' throw. Hold Person!
M: Made my saving throw. Slay Living!
D: Made mah savin' throw. Thor's Might!
M: ...wait, that's not how it-
*WHAM*

I'm a fan of callbacks. :smallcool:

[HandofShadows]

Blast. I was hoping they would catch on really quickly that it was not Thog. :smallfrown:

[Jiggs]

I get the feeling that Tarquin might have gone over his head...

A character like Tarquin would never, NEVER charge into a confrontation like he did without a plan, propably a back-up plan, a way-out strategy and a reason for doing it.

I suspect the reason for charging alone,
first the fun of figthing Roy.
It was mentioned before, Tarquin looked forward to fight a strategist like Roy.
Tarquin is propably higher in level, than any sinlge OotS charakter, so 1:1 is not challanging for Tarquin.
Also mentioned before, he could have sat back and watched Zz snipe them further, Malack controlling the air space, Oots mores or less sitting ducks.
Giving Roy the opportunity to fight as the comander of his team is evening the oods (he could have had him executed if he had wanted this back in the palace)

Second I don't think Tarquin really wants to kill any of the Oots Crew.
So charging alone front-up he is taking the comand a little away from Nale who wants to kill his brother and Oots.
If he disables the Oots Nale can not kill them in a figth. Executing them I would guess might not fit Nales ego, when his Dad has had to beat them up first (he could never say he won over them)
And Tarquin most certainly would not kill Elan like this (or propably Haley) this is not what he envisions.

Third Tarquin quotes, that the villains rush in at the last moment to take the prize from the heros.
I suppose Tarquin will have guessed that the Oots have not found the gate yet, so fighting them and driving them back, puts them in the need to look for the Gate.

[Karoug]

I smell a Whirlwind Attack + Vorpal Greataxe combo.... this will probably hurt

[Forikroder]

A character like Tarquin would never, NEVER charge into a confrontation like he did without a plan, propably a back-up plan, a way-out strategy and a reason for doing it.

I suspect the reason for charging alone,
first the fun of figthing Roy.
It was mentioned before, Tarquin looked forward to fight a strategist like Roy.
Tarquin is propably higher in level, than any sinlge OotS charakter, so 1:1 is not challanging for Tarquin.
Also mentioned before, he could have sat back and watched Zz snipe them further, Malack controlling the air space, Oots mores or less sitting ducks.
Giving Roy the opportunity to fight as the comander of his team is evening the oods (he could have had him executed if he had wanted this back in the palace)

Second I don't think Tarquin really wants to kill any of the Oots Crew.
So charging alone front-up he is taking the comand a little away from Nale who wants to kill his brother and Oots.
If he disables the Oots Nale can not kill them in a figth. Executing them I would guess might not fit Nales ego, when his Dad has had to beat them up first (he could never say he won over them)
And Tarquin most certainly would not kill Elan like this (or propably Haley) this is not what he envisions.

Third Tarquin quotes, that the villains rush in at the last moment to take the prize from the heros.
I suppose Tarquin will have guessed that the Oots have not found the gate yet, so fighting them and driving them back, puts them in the need to look for the Gate.

no he jsut charged in because hes a bad ass fighter and can hold them off long enough to force them to retreat

Haley has no flank nor sneak attack, her contribution will be pretty much nothing

Elan has a rapier

Durkon is more of a healing then a smashing cleric

so really the only 2 he has to worry about is roy and belkar, but he thinks belkar is worthless in a fight so really it is just a 1v1 with roy, roy has the bonus of a cleric helping him but Tarquin ahs the bonus of the entire party already being hurt and getting the surprise attack so Tarquin will be able to force them to find more advatnageous ground instead of standing out in the open trying to attack a fighter from the front

theres no complicated plan, theres no conspiracy theres no ulterior motives

[Particle_Man]

The Oots is playing D&D; Tarquin is playing Exalted and trying for maximum stunt dice. :smallcool:

[Riverdance]

He hasn't quite gotten his Thog accent down yet. :smalltongue:

[fergo]

Durkon is more of a healing then a smashing cleric

so really the only 2 he has to worry about is roy and belkar, but he thinks belkar is worthless in a fight so really it is just a 1v1 with roy, roy has the bonus of a cleric helping him but Tarquin ahs the bonus of the entire party already being hurt and getting the surprise attack so Tarquin will be able to force them to find more advatnageous ground instead of standing out in the open trying to attack a fighter from the front

theres no complicated plan, theres no conspiracy theres no ulterior motives


Firstly, Durkon's proven again and again that when he puts his mind to it he's quite possibly the most dangerous member of the Order, or at least the most effective.

And secondly, why do you think that he's underestimating Belkar? He's been hanging around with Nale for a while, there's no reason to assume he hasn't learned anything about the Order's strengths and weaknesses (which Nale would know better than most).

[LordofNaught]

Naturally, this can only go two ways. Either Tarquain gets his rear end handed to him by five adventures, among whom I'd have to say Belkar and Durkon are the biggest threats, or Tarquain beats them in a Curb Stomp Battle in an epic display of fighting. Personally, I'm going for the latter, but not before I see some major effort on the Order's part that hopefully takes all advantages into play.

[Riverdance]

I hope it's as straight forward as that (as it would mean an end to my long streak of wrong predictions and lack of foresight) but Tarquin's last word (magnificent!) leads me to fear that there will be some sort of twist. At the very least there's still the rest of the guild to deal with unless they're off to do something else. Also I hope V's alright.

[teratorn]

Either Tarquain gets his rear end handed to him by five adventures, among whom I'd have to say Belkar and Durkon are the biggest threats,

How is Belkar a realistic threat to Tarquin? (or even to Thog).

[Kish]

How is Belkar a realistic threat to Tarquin? (or even to Thog).
It involves daggers.

[Forikroder]

Firstly, Durkon's proven again and again that when he puts his mind to it he's quite possibly the most dangerous member of the Order, or at least the most effective.

And secondly, why do you think that he's underestimating Belkar? He's been hanging around with Nale for a while, there's no reason to assume he hasn't learned anything about the Order's strengths and weaknesses (which Nale would know better than most).
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0819.html

he jsut considers him the joke member whos there for comedic relief

while Durkon can lay on some hurt, between him, roy and belkar there all going to be tripping over each other trying to get into an actual good position to engage tarquin

[fergo]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0819.html

he jsut considers him the joke member whos there for comedic relief

while Durkon can lay on some hurt, between him, roy and belkar there all going to be tripping over each other trying to get into an actual good position to engage tarquin

Before talking to Nale :smallsmile:.

[Forikroder]

Before talking to Nale :smallsmile:.

why would he bother talking to nale when he already knows all of the OoTS abilities?

hes even seen most of them in action, he watched Roy duel Thog, dueled Elan personally saw Belkar dodge until his cat finished off the prisoner

Haley he can get a good idea from when he knocked her out the window, the guards watched Vs duel so he can geta good idea of what spells and how high a level he is

the only big wildcard is durkon who only cast a couple spells and haley who he didnt get a good look at

considering his mantra "who knows what you know is as important as knowing it" hes not going to purposely let nale know what he does or doesnt know about the OoTS

[Typewriter]

I'm guessing that Tarquin plans on dying here. He wants to go out in some glorious fashion, a way that will be remembered, a way that will just make his legacy truly immortal. Look at that last panel. One warrior standing his ground as a team of heroes swarm at him. 'Magnificent' is truly what Tarquin sees here. A death worthy of him.

If he wasn't in disguise Elan would try to convince his team not to finish him off, imprison him or something. Disguised.... well, they'll go all out against him. And his will be the ending he wanted all along.

[Forikroder]

I'm guessing that Tarquin plans on dying here. He wants to go out in some glorious fashion, a way that will be remembered, a way that will just make his legacy truly immortal. Look at that last panel. One warrior standing his ground as a team of heroes swarm at him. 'Magnificent' is truly what Tarquin sees here. A death worthy of him.

If he wasn't in disguise Elan would try to convince his team not to finish him off, imprison him or something. Disguised.... well, they'll go all out against him. And his will be the ending he wanted all along.

ya dieing in an area with noone watching where his corpse will rot and decompose forgotten by the entire world

he dies here and nothing happens, if his teammates can rustle up the resources for a true ressurection he comes back but theyll never find his corpse unless Malack gets out of it all alive

[LuPuWei]

:smallmad:This is the sort of comic I really hate.

:smallfrown: I have Days to wait and find out what happens next! :smallbiggrin:

[Subzero008]

I'm surprised that the axe didn't decapitate Roy. It looked like it hit the base of his neck.

Anyway, that was a very clever way for Tarquin to explain away the illusion. Judging by his "magnificent", the OoTS is probably screwed.

In other words, Tarquin is going to shove one of those japanese bullet trains up the OoTS's collective ass.:smallyuk:

[fergo]

considering his mantra "who knows what you know is as important as knowing it" hes not going to purposely let nale know what he does or doesnt know about the OoTS

That's a... good point, actually :smalltongue:.

But still...

Firstly, I would say that while Tarquin would rather not let his lack of knowledge be widely known, asking Nale about his extensive first-hand experience with the Order would take priority over that particular ideal. For Taquin (imo) the mantra is a means to an end, and when ignoring it would put him in a better position than keeping it, I have no doubt that he would do so.

And secondly, Tarquin was identifying Belkar's role in the group dynamic. Just because he sees him as a joker, doesn't mean he'll underestimate his combat capabilities :smallsmile:. Especially since he's seen him in action.

[Jiggs]

no he jsut charged in because hes a bad ass fighter and can hold them off long enough to force them to retreat

...

theres no complicated plan, theres no conspiracy theres no ulterior motives

So he is just dressing up as Thorg for is own personal fun...?

Unlikly!

I Would agree with Riverdance that there is (at least) one more twist to it

[Jiggs]

...
considering his mantra "who knows what you know is as important as knowing it" hes not going to purposely let nale know what he does or doesnt know about the OoTS

You are right about that one.

Considering he has a stategy to sumbit the continent by puppet regimes, we are in for some fun :smallbiggrin:

[snikrept]

Tarquin has already made a whole speech about how Elan needed many more levels of adventuring and brooding on top of gargoyles in the rain before a Final Confrontation would happen between father and son. He believes strongly in this narrative vision and I'm not sure he'd throw that all away after hearing about the existence of Gates.

IMO Tarquin is not here to lose, even gloriously. This fight is a target of opportunity, he has an interest in making Elan stronger and if anything he's here to betray Nale.

[rewinn]

Durkon's glowing hammer suggests he's casting a combat spell, rather than some sort of mass-heal. That strikes me as a tactical error but understandable, based on the relative information stats of the party.

Tarquin knows an awful lot about the Order, including its equipment and melee strength; if he's confident he can win the fight based on his abilities and equipment, and on the Order's previous damage, he's probably correct.

The Order OTOH is operating on faulty information; they think they're fighting Thog (who Roy beat before) plus maybe some upgraded equipment. A quick take-down before Thog's allies arrive makes sense, hence Durkon's combat spell.

But the Order's information is wrong; they have no hope of taking Tarquin out in one or two rounds (barring highly unlikely crit hits.) A better strategy would be to use the cleric to heal and buff, but Tarquin's carefully and cleverly tricked them into not using that strategy.

I suspect T plans to subdue them all. He's not gonna kill Elan and he promised his closest ally not to harm Durkon, and it's unreasonable to think they'd submit if he'd killed their friends (...plus or minus Belkar of course)

[Anarion]

Honestly, I think that just for a moment, Tarquin simply wants to enjoy himself. He's got a whole master plan going, lots of different pieces moving, but at this point he has to take a personal hand. He's seen Roy fight and knows what he's dealing with clearly in having the whole order come at him. And he plans to enjoy it.

[Wonton]

I'm not exactly sure why Tarquin wants to fight the entire OotS by himself. :smallconfused:

I get that he disguised himself as Thog so that he wouldn't have to reveal his betrayal, and I get that he wanted to fight Roy because he likes a challenge, but why not wait until the other members were occupied so he could get the 1v1 he wanted? I mean, I guess you could say that he wants the extra challenge, but from what we know of Tarquin as a character, he's not really one to intentionally make something more difficult for himself.

Though, if his fighting skills are all they're cracked up to be, we might get to see a "Miko vs OotS, Round 3" type battle where a single high-level combatant takes down most of order.

[Kish]

So he is just dressing up as Thorg for is own personal fun...?
Well, no one would be fooled if he dressed up as Belkon.

[LordVader]

I'm not exactly sure why Tarquin wants to fight the entire OotS by himself. :smallconfused:

I get that he disguised himself as Thog so that he wouldn't have to reveal his betrayal, and I get that he wanted to fight Roy because he likes a challenge, but why not wait until the other members were occupied so he could get the 1v1 he wanted? I mean, I guess you could say that he wants the extra challenge, but from what we know of Tarquin as a character, he's not really one to intentionally make something more difficult for himself.

Though, if his fighting skills are all they're cracked up to be, we might get to see a "Miko vs OotS, Round 3" type battle where a single high-level combatant takes down most of order.

Remember, Tarquin has a serious flair for the dramatic and seeming like a huge badass, as evidenced by line in the last panel: "Magnificent."

Tarquin would relish kicking the ass of an entire adventuring group 1v5.

[Forikroder]

So he is just dressing up as Thorg for is own personal fun...?

Unlikly!

I Would agree with Riverdance that there is (at least) one more twist to it

by pretending hes Thog he hides Malack and Kilkil

blus aside from haley and elan everyone in the group has taken 2 acid baths, elan has taken one acid bath andelan took a good hit from Tarquin so its not like a miko VS order

[Winter]

blus aside from haley and elan everyone in the group has taken 2 acid baths, elan has taken one acid bath andelan took a good hit from Tarquin so its not like a miko VS order

The HP-damage is something Durkon could easily fix with one Cure Mass XXX Spell. If he'd be smart, he'd throw one out right now.
Even without that, a potion here and there will take care of the lost HPs before the fight even starts.

The Order should have no problems to cancel the acid baths out (even if we are not shown that), so I'd not overestimate the impact the pre-damage will have on the final outcome.

I'm more assuming, as many here have already voiced, Tarquin follows more goals than just fighting the Order. That probably is his plan, but I also assume he's preventing Nale from just blasting them from the sky by meddling with the Order in melee. He might also plan to distract them from something Malack is going to do... we'll see, but it's likely not only about the "interesting fight".

PS: I'd still appreciate it a a lot if you tried to start your sentences with a capital letter and end with some punctuation. That increases the readability of your posts by a lot. No offense, this is just some suggestion.

[RickDaily12]

Well, no one would be fooled if he dressed up as Belkon.
Well, what if he dressed up as Ray?:smalltongue:
But in all seriousness, Tarquin going off and disguising himself while battling the Order makes his reasons for doing it very obvious, and yet his intentions so widely various. It's clear he doesn't want them to know they're really fighting him, but after that point, now that he's hidden himself, what does he plan to do with his shadowed identity? Does he plan to fight, or play?

We don't, after all, have a clear idea of his levels or wants from Nale at this point (so we can't predict the outcome of the Order's time with him well), he seems to be doing a great job lately of ticking everybody off (which could turn out horribly for him in the end). And no matter how I look at it... everything that Tarquin is doing seems to lead only into unnecessary madness. It doesn't really add to the conflict- just shrouds it with more chaos.

He's Lawful. A controlled situation should be more preferable than madness to him. :smallbiggrin:

[silvadel]

Elan needs to use his mass cure light wounds -- the whole party looks like they could use a little topping off more than they could use an inspirational melody.

[Forikroder]

The HP-damage is something Durkon could easily fix with one Cure Mass XXX Spell. If he'd be smart, he'd throw one out right now.
Even without that, a potion here and there will take care of the lost HPs before the fight even starts.

The Order should have no problems to cancel the acid baths out (even if we are not shown that), so I'd not overestimate the impact the pre-damage will have on the final outcome.

I'm more assuming, as many here have already voiced, Tarquin follows more goals than just fighting the Order. That probably is his plan, but I also assume he's preventing Nale from just blasting them from the sky by meddling with the Order in melee. He might also plan to distract them from something Malack is going to do... we'll see, but it's likely not only about the "interesting fight".

PS: I'd still appreciate it a a lot if you tried to start your sentences with a capital letter and end with some punctuation. That increases the readability of your posts by a lot. No offense, this is just some suggestion.
i dont think its only about the interesting fight, nale wants them to head eeper into the Ziggurat so hes apearing to give them a good reason to, after a few rounds with tarquin theyll probably decide to retreat to heal up and rengage in a more favourable situation

[Burner28]

Wow! This will be interesting!

[Omergideon]

Though, if his fighting skills are all they're cracked up to be, we might get to see a "Miko vs OotS, Round 3" type battle where a single high-level combatant takes down most of order.

By all the powers in this universe I pray it is not so. I do not, repeat DO NOT, want Tarquin to be taking out the whole order so quickly or easily. Fighting them to a standstill thanks to favourable conditions, a few suprises and some smart moves maybe. And by Standstill I mean, he is surviving. But beating them......no. It does not even work out thematically as Tarquin is not nor can ever be the main villain. He is a sidequest villain, introduced late in the show and out of almost nowhere who has done nothing in comic to justify such a high threat level. To have him defeat the order at this time would undermine their status as protagonists, removes any tension from them fighting the main villains of TE (cos if they can't even take this guy they are no threat to Xykon in a dull way) and is not a funny joke. In short I think it fails on a thematic, aesthetic and conceptual level in the comic. Even more so if he does so with anything resembling ease.*

Plus I somewhat hate Tarquin and want to see him fail badly.

*But a good fight, with him revealed as evenly matched with Roy, or even a slight superiority.......that could be good. At least it could work better.


But that aside the comic was something more of a tease to the big fight, but an entertaining one with the beginnings of action and more. Not sure I can fully review as everything I said that was good last time still applies, the potential worries are there too, but the Order were hilarious in the comic. That is my opinion.

[Winter]

Plus I somewhat hate Tarquin and want to see him fail badly.

I think your argument above really comes down to this. :smallbiggrin:

At least I do not mind if Tarquin is an "equal enemy" to the entire Order (minus the Party Wizard who's sleeping right now) or not. Both options probably make a good story.

[Emperordaniel]

Well, this does not look good for the Order (although I'd have to say that the team's putting on a pretty good pose in the last panel). :smalleek:

[Burner28]

Well, this does not look good for the Order (although I'd have to say that the team's putting on a pretty good pose in the last panel). :smalleek:

Indeed. But oh well...*shrugs*

[Kalirren]

I think the poster who suggested that Tarquin is trying to beat Roy on a strategic level has it exactly right. Tarquin doesn't have to take out the Order to win. He just has to distract the Order from the Gate so that the rest of the LG can get there first. Given that Roy has just ordered the OotS to focus Tarquin, Tarquin has -already- won. Hence, "Magnificent."

Besides, as long as the Order still thinks that Tarquin is Thog, they won't know to check for Tarquin's Ring of Regen, and Tarquin won't bite the dust for good.

[FAD!]

I believe Belkar will last till the last gate battle. You know, the one with nine factions. :smallwink:


I was hoping that would happen if Malack and Durkon got down to a Cleric on Cleric fight:

M: Destruction!
D: Made mah savin' throw. Hold Person!
M: Made my saving throw. Slay Living!
D: Made mah savin' throw. Thor's Might!
M: ...wait, that's not how it-
*WHAM*

I'm a fan of callbacks. :smallcool:

Malack has made it clear enough that he wants to avoid hurting Durkon. Durkon must be holding some respect for the 'reaper', too; remember when they exchanged spells in the library?


How is Belkar a realistic threat to Tarquin? (or even to Thog).

Belkar is a realistic threat to everything.*

*Which makes him funnier in my opinion.


By all the powers in this universe I pray it is not so. I do not, repeat DO NOT, want Tarquin to be taking out the whole order so quickly or easily. Fighting them to a standstill thanks to favourable conditions, a few suprises and some smart moves maybe. And by Standstill I mean, he is surviving. But beating them......no. It does not even work out thematically as Tarquin is not nor can ever be the main villain. He is a sidequest villain, introduced late in the show and out of almost nowhere who has done nothing in comic to justify such a high threat level. To have him defeat the order at this time would undermine their status as protagonists, removes any tension from them fighting the main villains of TE (cos if they can't even take this guy they are no threat to Xykon in a dull way) and is not a funny joke. In short I think it fails on a thematic, aesthetic and conceptual level in the comic. Even more so if he does so with anything resembling ease.*

Plus I somewhat hate Tarquin and want to see him fail badly.

I don't want Tarquin winning by himself either. He must have a plan or something.

[thepsyker]

i dont think its only about the interesting fight, nale wants them to head eeper into the Ziggurat so hes apearing to give them a good reason to, after a few rounds with tarquin theyll probably decide to retreat to heal up and rengage in a more favourable situationThis. I think that Tarquin is going to hold the Order up enough that when they see the rest of the Guild starting to move in they decide that their best option is to retreat deeper into the temple.

[oppyu]

Is anyone else thinking that if Nale wanted to take out his father, now would be the best possible time? Tarquin's on the ground engaging numerically superior forces and his supporting armies are miles away. That leaves Nale/Sabine/Zz'dtri vs Malack/Kilkil in the air, and if they win that fight, then we see if Tarquin can defeat the Order and team Nale at the same time.

[Whiffet]

I don't think the Order is going to overwhelm and defeat Tarquin, but I don't think Tarquin will have as easy of a time as some people think. Remember, a comic ago Nale said "Permission to hasten my inheritance granted." Now, Tarquin is a much better planner than Nale and has better judgment, but Nale has more information about the abilities of both sides. If Nale thinks there's a decent chance Tarquin could die from this, that means a Tarquin victory can't come too easily and Tarquin can't be too high of a level. If most of the Order hadn't already taken damage, I wouldn't give Tarquin a chance to win at all.

That all assumes Tarquin is planning on a regular fight against the Order, anyway.

[Winter]

i dont think its only about the interesting fight, nale wants them to head eeper into the Ziggurat so hes apearing to give them a good reason to, after a few rounds with tarquin theyll probably decide to retreat to heal up and rengage in a more favourable situation

Yes. It's about more than the fight. That is what I just said.

But you just confuse "Nale wants..." with "Tarquin plans...". I doubt what "Nale wants" has anything to do with what Tarquin actually is planning or doing.

[t209]

Did he wanted to get himself killed as part of his plan? Because Tarquin's plan is abit complicated.

[Forikroder]

Is anyone else thinking that if Nale wanted to take out his father, now would be the best possible time? Tarquin's on the ground engaging numerically superior forces and his supporting armies are miles away. That leaves Nale/Sabine/Zz'dtri vs Malack/Kilkil in the air, and if they win that fight, then we see if Tarquin can defeat the Order and team Nale at the same time.

Sabine cant fight cause if she does she drops nale, Nale attacks tarquin, first round Malack dismiss's sabine or something to take her out of the action, nale falls to his death (or falls in front of tarquin) and then malack and kilkil team up on Z, even if Kilkil isnt some super fighter it doesnt take much to make a caster blow a con check

besides, if Nale betrays tarquin tarquin jumps on his pterodactyl joins malack, throws out a good one liner and goes back to absorbing the continent

myabe soul binds nale and makes the gem into a bracelet and mails it to his mother or something


But you just confuse "Nale wants..." with "Tarquin plans...". I doubt what "Nale wants" has anything to do with what Tarquin actually is planning or doing.

and i think that anyone who thinks that Tarquin is in the desert to kill Nale and make it look like an accident or to enact some needlessly complicated plan to let nale or escape or anything is delusional (jsut to be clear i do think hes going to probably wind up killing nale, but killing nale is to make him keep quiet not the main objective)

Tarquin is letting Nale lead there hasnt been any evidence to the contrary maybe hes thinking nale deserves a second chance maybe hes thinking "well with how elan turned out maybe having more kids isnt such a bad idea lets see if nale does have a good side"

EDIT: you know i really wouldnt be surprised if Tarquins "magnificent" was about how bad ass there pose was at the last panel

[Haldir]

Tarquin probably has Rich's multi-enemy fighter feats. He'll use the OOTS against itself in close melee.

[semi]

Funny, I thought The Three Musketeers was a novel. Written in 1844. :smallamused:

hardy har har. Yeah, I've even actually read it. Well, an abridged version but still one with words and not even a picture to be seen. But still the mental image I had was from the movie "Man in the Iron Mask" so... :p and ;)

[ti'esar]

EDIT: you know i really wouldnt be surprised if Tarquins "magnificent" was about how bad ass there pose was at the last panel

That's more or less the only thing in your post I agree with. Whatever Tarquin's other motives for soloing the Order might be, the "cool" factor is definitely among them.

[Smolder]

Don't forget the other five opponents hovering above!

Whatever happens in the first panel of the next comic will definitely have a sound effect, and it will probably be another Sploosh or perhaps a Boom! Also, let's not forget that Z is known to petrify people when they're not looking. Tarquin will probably just stand back and laugh, having skillfully lured his opponents into a trap.

It might require that he's got some kind of protection spells or items, although I doubt Nale would mind a some collateral damage here. He might even order such an attack whether Tarquin expects it or not! Which is not to say that the aforementioned Whirlwind attack option wouldn't be effective. He looks like he's trying to bring them all together for a good old fashion cleave.

It's times like these I'm glad characters have hit points! In a game, that's just one Wound. Oh well, no biggie. In RL, Tarquin's axe would have at least amputated Roy's arm, if not totally bisected him. He's falling from a moving mount while wearing armor and landing axe-first on Roy's shoulder. How the hell is he still holding his sword in the same hand and attacking? He still has hit points, therefore he can still attack unhindered. Gotta love it.

[wizuriel]

Am I the only one to take Tarquin's magnificent as sarcastic and this is an outcome he didn't want?

[Forikroder]

Am I the only one to take Tarquin's magnificent as sarcastic and this is an outcome he didn't want?

sarcasm isnt really something you say in moments of serious danger though you never see someone getting mauled by a bear and going "well isnt this great"

[thepsyker]

Am I the only one to take Tarquin's magnificent as sarcastic and this is an outcome he didn't want?What else was he expecting them to do, hold back and attack him one at a time like they were members of some dark lords palace guard?

[FujinAkari]

Am I the only one to take Tarquin's magnificent as sarcastic and this is an outcome he didn't want?

Why would he not want that outcome? His stated goal is to draw them away since that was what Nale's original attack was supposed to do.

[Warren Dew]

I'm not exactly sure why Tarquin wants to fight the entire OotS by himself. :smallconfused:
I'm thinking he wants a challenge.

Kalirren's idea also seems plausible.

Edit:
From a story standpoint, I suspect the purpose of this battle is to demonstrate that Tarquin is actually epic level, rather than high teens. That will make the sides more even when Team Evil shows up and OOTS and Tarquin end up on the same side.

[Bulldog Psion]

To have him defeat the order at this time would undermine their status as protagonists, removes any tension from them fighting the main villains of TE (cos if they can't even take this guy they are no threat to Xykon in a dull way) and is not a funny joke. In short I think it fails on a thematic, aesthetic and conceptual level in the comic. Even more so if he does so with anything resembling ease.*

Actually, at this point, I'm starting to get a strange schadenfreude about seeing how many times they can fail to ever win or even accomplish the most elementary of goals. It saves a lot of frustration if you cultivate a certain cynical, slightly sadistic amusement at just how utterly useless the Order is for anything other than being punching bags. :smallamused:

[Marlowe]

Counts as, but is it confirmed Mithral exists in OotS verse or is common enough to be known? After all, at least 2-3 OotS members could use Mithral armours, and yet, don't have them.

And when you have 16+ levels, nerfing your 14+ level class to use 2 level one is kinda bad idea, IMHO.

Actually it's much easier than this.

The major thing Barbs lose in heavy armour is Fast Movement.

Fighters (like Tarquin) do not have fast movement.

Therefore, the stolen armour is a simple explanation for how not-Thog's not as fast as a Barbarian.

[WindStruck]

I don't think this is a question of who wins/loses the fight. Tarquin is probably doing exactly what he said he was going to do the strip before: "drive them back". So, he'd probably just draw them away from the ziggurat, make a big distraction, possibly knock a few out, then LG can approach or do whatever.

[Forikroder]

I don't think this is a question of who wins/loses the fight. Tarquin is probably doing exactly what he said he was going to do the strip before: "drive them back". So, he'd probably just draw them away from the ziggurat, make a big distraction, possibly knock a few out, then LG can approach or do whatever.

except that would be the opposite of what nale wants since he wants them to retreat into the ziggurat not advance aways from it

[FujinAkari]

except that would be the opposite of what nale wants since he wants them to retreat into the ziggurat not advance aways from it

Funny thing about Nale... he isn't Tarquin. What Nale wants and what Tarquin wants are explicitly nonequivalent.

[t209]

Actually it's much easier than this.

The major thing Barbs lose in heavy armour is Fast Movement.

Fighters (like Tarquin) do not have fast movement.

Therefore, the stolen armour is a simple explanation for how not-Thog's not as fast as a Barbarian.

but Rich could be lax on that part on D&D Rules (or did not notice it in melee confusion).

[OoTLink]

Wow, total fail on their part. First off, he answered questions nobody asked - and Thog never talks that much.

[Marlowe]

Weird that people could find it so easy to believe that a relatively inexpensive special material from the Core books should be so beyond the pale for the comic, or that the writer should be ignorant of the basic class abilities of a Core class.

[ti'esar]

Weird that people could find it so easy to believe that a relatively inexpensive special material from the Core books should be so beyond the pale for the comic, or that the writer should be ignorant of the basic class abilities of a Core class.

What are you talking about?

[Omergideon]

Actually, at this point, I'm starting to get a strange schadenfreude about seeing how many times they can fail to ever win or even accomplish the most elementary of goals. It saves a lot of frustration if you cultivate a certain cynical, slightly sadistic amusement at just how utterly useless the Order is for anything other than being punching bags. :smallamused:

I am unable to do such, and thankfully so. A Failure of a protagonist is something I do not enjoy watching, however amusing it is reputed to be.

To me the best protagonists are those who struggle greatly, but manage to believably overcome their troubles to succeed. An endless string of failures played for comedy just puts me off quickly. To me the Roy/Thog fight most recently, the Order vs the LG back in Cliffport and other such fights are the best as they are hard but ultimately lead to a well earned success.

And as I said, a roughly even match with the order barely managing to win, or Tarquin just about holding them off 5 on 1, would be fine. An easy defeat of the Order would be bad on a dramatic level and hurt the story of the comic in my opinion.

[Marlowe]

What are you talking about?

T209's post above mine, and another poster several pages back. Sorry for confusion.

Basic point was that there's plenty of ways Thog in heavy armour could be believable to the Order, in spite of being him being a base class that doesn't get the proficiency.

[Winter]

and i think that anyone who thinks that Tarquin is in the desert to kill Nale and make it look like an accident or to enact some needlessly complicated plan to let nale or escape or anything is delusional

Yes, that might very well be. But by replying this to me there must be something you want to tell me. As I have not voiced the opinion Tarquin was only there to fight that fight, I have no idea what it could be that you want to tell me.
So I ask, one last time before I re-evaluate my apparently premature descision to take you off my ignore list, for clarification what you intended to communicate to me.

[Tannhaeuser]

Even if this isn't the end of a story arc, I gotta think the last panel would look awesome for the end of the trade paperback (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html).

[Puschkin]

Time for Tarquin to finally show us his fighting skills. It was about time he was involved on a real battle.

I fear you'll get disappointed.
For one, Tarquin certainly has something up his sleeve. I doubt his plan was to just take them in melee 1 vs 5. He teased them while impersonating Thog and the order responded with an all-out attack, as exspected by Tarquin. This MUST be a trap or trick of some kind and that means no "real battle".

Secondly, I sense a shift to Team Evil or somewhere else right next strip ...

[nihil8r]

so ... anyone else think that tarquin's a single-class fighter like roy? :roy:

[Winter]

so ... anyone else think that tarquin's a single-class fighter like roy? :roy:

Given what we saw from him, I'm betting he has some aristocratic (or at least social-skills- and skillpoint-friendly) PrC. The PrC still probably does not neglect fighting-progression and HPs alltogether (I assume Tarquin still focusses on what he is, in the end: A general).

Some PrC that has a better will-save-progression would also not be a dumb thing for him.

I'd estimate he has 10+ levels in Fighter (for BAB, HP, and Feats) and some 5 to 10 in some homebrew-munchkin PrC, putting him in the range of 15+ (min) to 20ish+ (max).

[Jiggs]

I don't think this is a question of who wins/loses the fight. Tarquin is probably doing exactly what he said he was going to do the strip before: "drive them back". So, he'd probably just draw them away from the ziggurat, make a big distraction, possibly knock a few out, then LG can approach or do whatever.

Hmmm, considering your argument, maybe Tarquins actions will do just that.
Nale wanted them to go back and threw Acid balls, it did not work (that was a surprise... :smallcool: )
Tarquin understands his intentions "if our goal is to drive them back" and acts " I request permission to engage the enemy" and adds sarcasm "Great Leader of the Linear Guild"
It does not necessarily mean, that this would be his strategy for taking the Gate, but he agreed to leave the comando of the mission with Nale (for the time being)

[FAD!]

hardy har har. Yeah, I've even actually read it. Well, an abridged version but still one with words and not even a picture to be seen. But still the mental image I had was from the movie "Man in the Iron Mask" so... :p and ;)

That was a book too. :amused:


Secondly, I sense a shift to Team Evil or somewhere else right next strip ...

Team Evil = Xykon & friends or the archfiends?

[Marlowe]

Team Evil = Xykon & friends or the archfiends?

Team Evil is the accepted fan nickname for Xykon & Co. The Linear Guild are the IFCC's catspaws, so in a sense the "archfiends" are already here.

[FAD!]

Team Evil is the accepted fan nickname for Xykon & Co. The Linear Guild are the IFCC's catspaws, so in a sense the "archfiends" are already here.

Thanks. But I thought the LG were pawns before Tarquin joined...

[Marlowe]

Thanks. But I thought the LG were pawns before Tarquin joined...

And they're pawns now. I don't see the dilemma. As Sabine mentioned ages ago, Nale is considered quite the rising pawn star. He's a veteran at getting pawned.

[Jay R]

Wow, total fail on their part. First off, he answered questions nobody asked - and Thog never talks that much.
"not nale. not-nale. thog help nail not-nale, not nale. and thog knot not-nale while nale nail not-nale. nale, not not-nale, now nail not-nale by leaving not-nale, not nale, in jail."


http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0819.html

he jsut considers him the joke member whos there for comedic relief

Based on the comic you cited, he's at least considering the possibility that Belkar is more than that. "When 4-6 high-level adventurers..."

Besides, when Belkar wasn't there, he didn't call him the comic relief. He called him the foil, there to create internal conflict. He is, as expected, exactly right.


ya dieing in an area with noone watching where his corpse will rot and decompose forgotten by the entire world

he dies here and nothing happens, if his teammates can rustle up the resources for a true ressurection he comes back but theyll never find his corpse unless Malack gets out of it all alive

Except that adventurers search bodies. If he dies here (unlikely), Elan will find out who he is, and insist on resurrection or burial.

[LordVader]

I fear you'll get disappointed.
For one, Tarquin certainly has something up his sleeve. I doubt his plan was to just take them in melee 1 vs 5. He teased them while impersonating Thog and the order responded with an all-out attack, as exspected by Tarquin. This MUST be a trap or trick of some kind and that means no "real battle".

Secondly, I sense a shift to Team Evil or somewhere else right next strip ...

I think people who assume that Tarquin cannot take the group on as they are right now should reevaluate the situation.

Tarquin defeated Elan without even trying; that's a hint to how high-level he is. Tarquin's been adventuring for decades and decades; that's a hint to how high-level he is. Tarquin himself, with no reason to lie, implied to Roy that he was significantly higher-level; that's a hint to high how-level he is.

While I wouldn't be surprised if this is a trap, I also can absolutely see Tarquin taking down the entire order 1v5. If Miko did it, Tarquin certainly can, especially seeing as the Order's already lost a considerable chunk of their HP.

V, the most competent and dangerous combatant, is not present. That leaves only Durkon to take Tarquin on with magic.

Tarquin's a high-level character with a myriad array of powerful magical items who has demonstrated consummate skill in every fight we've seen him engage in, as well as showcasing high-level planning ability at every turn.

This does not end well for the Order.

[Jay R]

Thanks. But I thought the LG were pawns before Tarquin joined...

Of course. They are constantly pawns of the OotS's enemies. They were introduced as Xykon's pawns, have been shown to be the IFCC's pawns, and are currently Tarquin's pawns.

Kubota should be offended that he never got his turn.



But still the mental image I had was from the movie "Man in the Iron Mask" so... :p and ;)That was a book too. :amused:

Well, as long as we're being pedantic, I should point out that it was in fact only one-third of a novel. The last of the three D'Artagnan romances was The Vicomte of Bragelonne: Ten Years Later. It follows the story of Athos's son Raoul. Chapters 181 to 269 are often excerpted in English as The Man in the Iron Mask.

[Doug Lampert]

Counts as, but is it confirmed Mithral exists in OotS verse or is common enough to be known? After all, at least 2-3 OotS members could use Mithral armours, and yet, don't have them.

And when you have 16+ levels, nerfing your 14+ level class to use 2 level one is kinda bad idea, IMHO.

Heavy armor costs a Barbarian his extra 10' of movement. That's the only cost. That's its cost at level 1, that's its cost at level 14, that's its cost at level 20, thats its cost at level 1000.

Nothing more, nothing less. If you think heavy armor is worth more than movement then a fighter/barbarian can wear heavy armor at no cost other than the movement bonus he gets at level 1. Brb14/Ftr2 and Ftr14/Brb2 are the same exact tradeoff. How many levels of each class is totally irrelevant.

[Forikroder]

Except that adventurers search bodies. If he dies here (unlikely), Elan will find out who he is, and insist on resurrection or burial.

they never looted the linear guild stoogies any other time theyve taken them down why would they start now?


Tarquin defeated Elan without even trying; that's a hint to how high-level he is. Tarquin's been adventuring for decades and decades; that's a hint to how high-level he is. Tarquin himself, with no reason to lie, implied to Roy that he was significantly higher-level; that's a hint to high how-level he is.

elan is a bard, the only reason he was even somewhat compitant is battle is because of his prestige class, Tarquin knew a way to remove the bonus his presitge class gave him

therefore during that fight, elan was a bard trying to fight a fighter in combat


adventuring for decades doesnt mean hes extremely high level, in fact we dont know if he has been adventuring for decades since between the time he was married and trying to take over the continent he was not adventuring, the only time he was adventuring was between meeting his group and before he got married its not like hes been dungeon diving since he was 2

If Miko did it, Tarquin certainly can

that was a long time ago, the Order was a few levels down, they didnt have a semi-competent bard and didnt ahve Durkon healing them lvl 10 adventurers getting take out by one dude means the dudes a high level, 5 lvl 16~ adventurers getting taken out by one fighter means that fighter had a god for one of his parents

plus paladins work better then fighters as solo fighters since they have overall higher saves, a horse as back up and can heal and cast spells

Tarquin has no horse to grapple belkar, no way to heal himself, and no amazing will or dexterity save


has demonstrated consummate skill in every fight we've seen him engage in

wait what? we saw him fight a single time against someone who was not optimized at all to fight in melee and couldnt use the skill that made him somewhat competant


Of course. They are constantly pawns of the OotS's enemies. They were introduced as Xykon's pawns, have been shown to be the IFCC's pawns, and are currently Tarquin's pawns.

ya except they were never Xykons pawns since they never did anything for him they were jsut in the dungeon for there own reasons and got some money from Xykon for a job they didnt actually plan to do unless it jsut so happened to coincide with there own job

and there not tarquins pawns either, being a pawn means there doing something for you with there own free will, the word your looking for is "prisoner"

[Killer Angel]

(stuff)

This does not end well for the Order.

I think this reasoning stands.
Plus, our heroes think to fight the same old dumb Thog. This could lead to a wrong approach, Tarquin is smart.

edit: Tarquin is tougher than Thog, so he will not be an easy prey, and I believe he's got some trap / trick in mind.

[FAD!]

I think this reasoning stands.
Plus, our heroes think to fight the same old dumb Thog. This could lead to a wrong approach, Tarquin is smart.

edit: Tarquin is tougher than Thog, so he will not be an easy prey, and I believe he's got some trap / trick in mind.

He did try to jump in a 5v1 however. We're missing something.

[Wayac]

So... did Tarquin's last line remind anyone of Xanatos? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=LqwvHspb0YI#t=43s)

[Forikroder]

He did try to jump in a 5v1 however. We're missing something.

there all pretty wounded and missing there main firepower?

[LordVader]

elan is a bard, the only reason he was even somewhat compitant is battle is because of his prestige class, Tarquin knew a way to remove the bonus his presitge class gave him

therefore during that fight, elan was a bard trying to fight a fighter in combat

Exactly. Tarquin was prepared to defend himself against possibly the most obscure PrC known to man, with nothing but a dagger, no less; he's certainly prepared to fight bog-standard classes like Clerics and Fighters.



that was a long time ago, the Order was a few levels down, they didnt have a semi-competent bard and didnt ahve Durkon healing them lvl 10 adventurers getting take out by one dude means the dudes a high level, 5 lvl 16~ adventurers getting taken out by one fighter means that fighter had a god for one of his parents


Couple of points. #1, the Order was a few levels down, yes, but the level disparity between Tarquin and the Order is quite likely greater than the level disparity between Miko and the Order. Additionally, they had V and no preexisting damage in the Miko fight.

#2, OotS does not always follow strict D&D conventions, which means that fighters have a much better chance than they would in actual D&D. If this comic followed 3.5 strictly Roy wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell of killing Xykon.



wait what? we saw him fight a single time against someone who was not optimized at all to fight in melee and couldnt use the skill that made him somewhat competant

No, we saw him effortlessly defeat a character who has taken down Nale, whom we know to be a skilled fighter.

Again, the fact that Tarquin was prepared to pun duel is a point for him being able to take on the Order 1v5; his preparation is immaculate.

I honestly don't understand why people think Tarquin doesn't know what he's doing here. Has there ever been a point in the comic to date when Tarquin wasn't in full control of the situation, fully aware of what was going on, and two steps ahead of everyone else plan-wise?

Why would things be any different here? Tarquin's not a risk-taker. He's not going to engage unless he knows he can win.

And yeah, Tarquin may not have been actively adventuring for the past decade or two, but the fact that he's consistently immersed in incredibly deep and sophisticated political conflicts means that he's certainly still gaining XP for overcoming challenges.

[Finagle]

That was a book too. :amused:
Nope. The Man in the Iron Mask wasn't a book (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_in_the_Iron_Mask#In_popular_culture). :smallamused:

[Forikroder]

Exactly. Tarquin was prepared to defend himself against possibly the most obscure PrC known to man, with nothing but a dagger, no less; he's certainly prepared to fight bog-standard classes like Clerics and Fighters.

clerics and fighters lack pass codes that make them lose there fighting strength


Couple of points. #1, the Order was a few levels down, yes, but the level disparity between Tarquin and the Order is quite likely greater than the level disparity between Miko and the Order. Additionally, they had V and no preexisting damage in the Miko fight.

in the first miko fight, Roy had lost the effects of alot of his feats since instead of a greatsword he had a club, Haley nor V could fight, Elan couldnt fight (now admittably that increases there chances but bear with me) and Durkon was sitting on the sidelines

the second miko fight was entirely off panel but again they had serious negatives

once Roy got his sword back he put a really good fight against Miko while it was after her fall, falling doesnt really hurt her combat abilities much if Miko had fought the order in the way Tarquin is (as in actually fighting them when there prepared) she would have gotten OWNED


#2, OotS does not always follow strict D&D conventions, which means that fighters have a much better chance than they would in actual D&D. If this comic followed 3.5 strictly Roy wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell of killing Xykon.

and hes fared so well against Xykon in the past, in fact sometimes, when Xykon is completely ignoring him and going into an evil speech and not actually fighting seriously Roy managed to get a couple hits in


No, we saw him effortlessly defeat a character who has taken down Nale, whom we know to be a skilled fighter.

is there a second nale in the comic i was previously unaware of? becuase the only nale i know is triple multiclass and only one his class's is good in a straight up fight (and its not his highest level class) so we must not be talking about the same Nale


I honestly don't understand why people think Tarquin doesn't know what he's doing here. Has there ever been a point in the comic to date when Tarquin wasn't in full control of the situation, fully aware of what was going on, and two steps ahead of everyone else plan-wise?

when he lsot the countries he conquered and during Nales coup nale hiding out in his palace for so long

[J's]

When Tarquin said "Magnificent" did anyone have a flashback to The Three Musketeers when they made their final charge? Well, I mean the charge was done by the musketeers but it was in the Man in the Iron Mask. Horrible movie but anyways... did anyone? If so, things didn't turn out all that awesome from the perspective of the chargers even though they were assaulting a woefully inexperienced group, unlike what the OoTS is about to encounter. Probably way too much "I saw something similar in a movie, so I'm sure the strip will play out the same way" but it doesn't change the fact that when I read Tarquin's final line in the strip I thought about a really bad Leo DiCaprio movie.

Aww, you poor, poor man. Have you ever seen the 70s 3 musketeers (the sequel is 4 musketeers)? They might take the fowl taste from your mouth. Though frankly I always think of sleeping beauty from that word, But not due to setting. Melifacent was just my first exposure to the magnificent bastard.

Edit:
And on the topic of fighting- I wonder if he engaged them to prevent the whole order from dieing from the ranged attacks. Who would die first would be pretty random, and therefore out of Tarquin's control. What ever his thoughts on survivability that might be his motivation.

[zimmerwald1915]

Exactly. Tarquin was prepared to defend himself against possibly the most obscure PrC known to man, with nothing but a dagger, no less; he's certainly prepared to fight bog-standard classes like Clerics and Fighters.
The dagger and the puns were mostly for show. Elan's punning does not help him hit, it helps him deal meaningful damage. That Tarquin was able to pun-duel messed with Elan's head, and may have nullified Elan's bonus damage had he ever managed to hit Tarquin, but he never did. Tarquin won that fight through his massive AC (for AC read wealth), through being able to psych Elan out (with which the puns helped), and through the adroit use of the disarm combat maneuver. You may wish to point out that Elan was able to defeat Nale just after he learned to pun-duel: I would counter that most of Nale's levels are in Sorcerer (at least 8 out of presumably 14 levels by this arc), that Dashing Swordsman is probably a full-BAB prestige class, and that Nale, very much unlike Tarquin, was not wearing any armor when he fought Elan. Elan would find it much easier to hit, and thus to do his bonus damage to, Nale than he would Tarquin.

Moreover, Tarquin had not prepared to pun-duel Elan. He had learned the technique prior to meeting Elan again and learning his build (we know from Eric that infants and small children do not have class levels, and we know from both Tarquin and Nale that Tarquin left Elan when he and Nale were small children). Tarquin was, as he himself put it, called upon to pun-duel. He was improvising, and happened to have just the correct tool on hand with which to improvise successfully.


Couple of points. #1, the Order was a few levels down, yes, but the level disparity between Tarquin and the Order is quite likely greater than the level disparity between Miko and the Order. Additionally, they had V and no preexisting damage in the Miko fight.
Miko was between level 12 and level 15 when she fought the OOTS, who were at that time all level 12. The OOTS members fall between level 12 (Roy) and level 16 (Belkar) now, with Durkon and Elan towards the lower end of the spectrum and V and Haley towards the higher end. Counting only the people who are present, that's a party of 5 with an average level of 14, versus the party of 5 with APL 12 the OOTS had for the Miko fight. Tarquin might be level 17 or higher, but there's really no reason to say that he is other than the feeling some people get that someone must be high-level in order to be awesome (I'm in the "Tarquin is overrated" camp, if you couldn't tell).


#2, OotS does not always follow strict D&D conventions, which means that fighters have a much better chance than they would in actual D&D. If this comic followed 3.5 strictly Roy wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell of killing Xykon.
Roy doesn't stand a snowball's chance in hell of killing Xykon. It's one of many sources of dramatic tension. :smallwink:


No, we saw him effortlessly defeat a character who has taken down Nale, whom we know to be a skilled fighter.
We know nothing of the kind. First off, it was V who took down Nale. Elan was wearing him down (not to mention keeping Thog occpuied) before Durkon and V entered the room, but Nale was far from incapacitated. Second, Nale is not a skilled fighter. Again I would point out that most of his levels are in Sorcerer. In addition, his only two instances of martial prowess - incapacitating Elan in the Dungeon of Dorukan and decapitating the Cliffport police chief - were accomplished by taking surprise attacks.


Again, the fact that Tarquin was prepared to pun duel is a point for him being able to take on the Order 1v5; his preparation is immaculate.
Again, he was not prepared to pun-duel. He happened to know how, and had the presence of mind to do so. Two very different things.

[RNGgod]

We know nothing of the kind. First off, it was V who took down Nale. Elan was wearing him down (not to mention keeping Thog occpuied) before Durkon and V entered the room, but Nale was far from incapacitated. Second, Nale is not a skilled fighter. Again I would point out that most of his levels are in Sorcerer. In addition, his only two instances of martial prowess - incapacitating Elan in the Dungeon of Dorukan and decapitating the Cliffport police chief - were accomplished by taking surprise attacks.

Keep in mind that in between being attacked by Elan and being taken down by V, Nale took a healing potion. It seems likely to me that he was in very poor condition prior to that potion, and so I'm not sure we can deny Elan his fair share of the credit for taking him down.

[Forikroder]

Elan's punning does not help him hit, it helps him deal meaningful damage.

i thought it allowed him to use his charisma instead of strength on attack and damage rolls?

as a result he only had bis base attack bonus (possibly - whatever BaB his PrC gave him) and his (possibly) nonexistanct strength modifier (or at least a very small one)

combine that with Tarquin doing what we can presume would be a full defensive on his rounds (or somewhat defensive) and his probably very high AC and its no surprise that Tarquin came out unscathed

however, Tarquin took the first chance he got to disarm elan so its something that Elan went so many rounds with Tarquin being unable to disarm him

[zimmerwald1915]

i thought it allowed him to use his charisma instead of strength on attack and damage rolls?
Julio, who as the person introducing the class to Elan really should be expected to sell it as well as he can, only mentions damage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0390.html).

[LordVader]

The dagger and the puns were mostly for show. Elan's punning does not help him hit, it helps him deal meaningful damage. That Tarquin was able to pun-duel messed with Elan's head, and may have nullified Elan's bonus damage had he ever managed to hit Tarquin, but he never did. Tarquin won that fight through his massive AC (for AC read wealth), through being able to psych Elan out (with which the puns helped), and through the adroit use of the disarm combat maneuver. You may wish to point out that Elan was able to defeat Nale just after he learned to pun-duel: I would counter that most of Nale's levels are in Sorcerer (at least 8 out of presumably 14 levels by this arc), that Dashing Swordsman is probably a full-BAB prestige class, and that Nale, very much unlike Tarquin, was not wearing any armor when he fought Elan. Elan would find it much easier to hit, and thus to do his bonus damage to, Nale than he would Tarquin.


Elan's attacks aren't missing; Tarquin is blocking them.
This can be interpreted as the D&D technique of extrapolating misses as other things than your attack just whiffing, of course, but given that OotS combat is not straight D&D, I'm inclined to think that Tarquin is actually blocking due to skill.



Moreover, Tarquin had not prepared to pun-duel Elan. He had learned the technique prior to meeting Elan again and learning his build (we know from Eric that infants and small children do not have class levels, and we know from both Tarquin and Nale that Tarquin left Elan when he and Nale were small children). Tarquin was, as he himself put it, called upon to pun-duel. He was improvising, and happened to have just the correct tool on hand with which to improvise successfully.

I really don't see the distinction you're making here. Knowing how to pun-duel means that you're prepared to defend yourself against pun dueling.

I'm not saying that Tarquin had specifically prepared to take down Elan; I'm saying that if he was prepared to defend himself against so obscure a PrC he's certainly prepared to take on far more mundane opponents.



Miko was between level 12 and level 15 when she fought the OOTS, who were at that time all level 12. The OOTS members fall between level 12 (Roy) and level 16 (Belkar) now, with Durkon and Elan towards the lower end of the spectrum and V and Haley towards the higher end. Counting only the people who are present, that's a party of 5 with an average level of 14, versus the party of 5 with APL 12 the OOTS had for the Miko fight. Tarquin might be level 17 or higher, but there's really no reason to say that he is other than the feeling some people get that someone must be high-level in order to be awesome (I'm in the "Tarquin is overrated" camp, if you couldn't tell).


Tarquin's cited himself as high-level with no reason to lie and has decades of high-stakes adventuring on the Order. If we're going to go by strict D&D logic in other areas, than by strict D&D logic he should be significantly stronger than the Order.



Roy doesn't stand a snowball's chance in hell of killing Xykon. It's one of many sources of dramatic tension. :smallwink:


You might want to reexamine their first fight, then.



We know nothing of the kind. First off, it was V who took down Nale. Elan was wearing him down (not to mention keeping Thog occpuied) before Durkon and V entered the room, but Nale was far from incapacitated. Second, Nale is not a skilled fighter. Again I would point out that most of his levels are in Sorcerer. In addition, his only two instances of martial prowess - incapacitating Elan in the Dungeon of Dorukan and decapitating the Cliffport police chief - were accomplished by taking surprise attacks.

Fair enough.



Again, he was not prepared to pun-duel. He happened to know how, and had the presence of mind to do so. Two very different things.

They're really not. Knowing how to pun-duel means that you're prepared against pun-dueling attacks. Remember, this is a specific technique that has to be learned, not something any character can do.


Again, I ask you to explain why a character who has consistently demonstrated extremely high-level planning abilities would dive into a 1v5 situation if it was even somewhat unwinnable.

[Forikroder]

Elan's attacks aren't missing; Tarquin is blocking them.
This can be interpreted as the D&D technique of extrapolating misses as other things than your attack just whiffing, of course, but given that OotS is not straight D&D, I'm inclined to think that Tarquin is actually blocking due to skill.

i assumed that one of the drawbacks to dashing swordsman is if your opponent outpuns you they get to block for free since he dodges the first attack and blocks the second


I really don't see the distinction you're making here. Knowing how to pun-duel means that you're prepared to defend yourself against pun dueling.

I'm not saying that Tarquin had specifically prepared to take down Elan; I'm saying that if he was prepared to defend himself against so obscure a PrC he's certainly prepared to take on far more mundane opponents.

its easier to defend agaisnt special classes then it is agaisnt the mundane, the more complicated an attack is the easier it is to block if they know how to block

this is th eprefect scenario, Tarquin knows how to block elans puns so cleans him up easily but the only way to block roys swing is to have the physical power neccesary to block it (or the dexterity to dodge) it doesnt matter how many source books hes read its all about his combat abilities


Tarquin's cited himself as high-level with no reason to lie, has decades of high-stakes adventuring on the Order, and is currently engaging in a 1v5 fight

Roy is high level too, theres no evidence that tarquin is more then one or two levels higher, or saying "back when i was your level" is jsut an odd saying that exists in the OoTS-verse

and hes not engaging in a 1v5 hes engaging in a 6v5 he has 5 party members in the sky (a couple even in range to help) hes a meat shield his job is to do exactly what hes doing hes high enough level to take a beating from them since only 3 of them are the right class in the right situation to actually do damage to him


You might want to reexamine their first fight, then.

the part where Xykon was completely ignoring him and monologuing and Dorukons uber rune killed Xykon for him?

congrats, you proved Roy has the strength neccesary to lift 100 ppounds over his head big whoop if the rune wasnt there the next round Xykon kills him


Again, I ask you to explain why a character who has consistently demonstrated extremely high-level planning abilities would dive into a 1v5 situation if it was even somewhat unwinnable.

dude, i ahte to break it to you, but Tarquin is not a god, hes not one of the beings of pure power who created the universe hes jsut a man if you cut him red blood comes out and if you cut him enough he dies

plus his plan isnt really that amazing, sure its smart but its not omg uber genius smart, any one with a decent intelligence score would have been able to figure it out as well

it would ahve been a much more impressive plan if he had figured out that he couldnt conquer the entire desert by himself without having to actually try it

[thepsyker]

Again, I ask you to explain why a character who has consistently demonstrated extremely high-level planning abilities would dive into a 1v5 situation if it was even somewhat unwinnable.Because he doesn't intend to defeat them, but to encourage them to retreat deeper into the pyramid in keeping with his ruse of letting Nale appear to be/think he is in charge? He doesn't need to win for that just delay for the rest of the Guild to get into position.

[zimmerwald1915]

Elan's attacks aren't missing; Tarquin is blocking them.
This can be interpreted as the D&D technique of extrapolating misses as other things than your attack just whiffing, of course, but given that OotS combat is not straight D&D, I'm inclined to think that Tarquin is actually blocking due to skill.
Given that every combat so far has been explicable within the bounds of the D&D rules (except for minor exceptions like when the Giant forgets or alters a spell's casting time), and given that Roy parries Miko's attack here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0408.html) and that Hinjo parries her attack here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html), I think it's safe to say that the first option is by far the more likely.


I really don't see the distinction you're making here. Knowing how to pun-duel means that you're prepared to defend yourself against pun dueling.

I'm not saying that Tarquin had specifically prepared to take down Elan; I'm saying that if he was prepared to defend himself against so obscure a PrC he's certainly prepared to take on far more mundane opponents.
We do know that he says he learned to pun-duel in order to "defend himself against [that] obscure combat technique". We do not know if he's dissembling or not. But my point is precisely that your using "he's prepared" in this context, when we're talking about the specific preparations he's made to fight the OOTS, does indeed imply that he expected a fight with Elan to take the form of a pun-duel.


Tarquin's cited himself as high-level with no reason to lie and has decades of high-stakes adventuring on the Order. If we're going to go by strict D&D logic in other areas, than by strict D&D logic he should be significantly stronger than the Order.
No he didn't. He implied that he judged himself to be a higher level than Roy. Now, Roy was level 12 when the book began and cannot now be level 14 or higher (otherwise he would have taken Horace's feat). Tarquin can be anywhere from level 13 to level infinity based on that comment alone.


You might want to reexamine their first fight, then.
You might want to take into account Roy - or anyone else in the Order - not knowing about the phylactery at the time, meaning that Xykon was guaranteed not to be destroyed. You might also want to take into account that the circumstances of that fight, including the presence of an easily accesable epic rune-of-kill-anything-that-is-not-Good-aligned, are unlikely to recur. You might also want to examine their second fight, which took place in entirely different circumstances, and when Roy, two levels higher and with a starmetal sword, was unambiguously stronger than he was for the first fight.


They're really not. Knowing how to pun-duel means that you're prepared against pun-dueling attacks. Remember, this is a specific technique that has to be learned, not something any character can do.
Sure they are. Being prepared means going into a situation with a plan in mind. What you're talking about is being well-equipped, which is a prerequisite for being prepared, but not the same thing.


Again, I ask you to explain why a character who has consistently demonstrated extremely high-level planning abilities would dive into a 1v5 situation if it was even somewhat unwinnable.
All I was doing was pointing out holes in your argument, not attempting to make an overarching point of my own. But here 'goes. It doesn't have to be winnable, in the sense that Tarquin expects to incapacitate the OOTS, for Tarquin to engage in this fight. He has a goal in mind that he expects he can accomplish by engaging, and he expects he will survive even if he does not. He's probably right. That does not speak to Tarquin's ability to incapacitate the OOTS.

[Forikroder]

No he didn't. He implied that he judged himself to be a higher level than Roy. Now, Roy was level 12 when the book began and cannot now be level 14 or higher (otherwise he would have taken Horace's feat). Tarquin can be anywhere from level 13 to level infinity based on that comment alone.

hold up why do we know Roy cannor be 14 or higher based on feat?

[zimmerwald1915]

hold up why do we know Roy cannor be 14 or higher based on feat?
A fighter gains one feat and one bonus feat at level 12, no feats at level 13, one bonus feat at level 14, one feat at level 15, and one bonus feat at level 16. Level 14 is therefore the earliest Roy can take Horace's feat, and that's even if he meets the prerequisites. Since he hasn't mentioned or evinced gaining the feat, or mentioned or evinced gaining a prerequisite feat, perhaps with some commentary on how long the feat chain is, we can assume he has not taken a feat since his resurrection. Therefore, we can assume Roy has not leveled to 14. He may have leveled to 13, and indeed it is quite likely. But we cannot know, since nothing we could observe about him would change (his BAB would go up a point, and he'd have six or so new skill points to spend, but that's about it; we'll know he's reached level 16 when he gets four attacks per round).

[Tobimaro]

This is going to be an interesting fight. I just wonder if Roy's Intelligence score will play as big a roll as it did in the pit fight? :smallamused:

[zimmerwald1915]

Oh, and before I forget, we do know the stats of a ruler who did virtually nothing but rule most of his adult life: Shojo was a level 14 Aristocrat. Since Tarquin was an adventurer before trying to conquer a continent and before he began his three-empire scheme, he probably had a leg-up on Shojo, even if he's spent less time at the helm of a nation. A level 15-17 Tarquin is not terribly unlikely, though that doesn't say all that much about his upcoming performance against the OOTS.

[Forikroder]

A fighter gains one feat and one bonus feat at level 12, no feats at level 13, one bonus feat at level 14, one feat at level 15, and one bonus feat at level 16. Level 14 is therefore the earliest Roy can take Horace's feat, and that's even if he meets the prerequisites. Since he hasn't mentioned or evinced gaining the feat, or mentioned or evinced gaining a prerequisite feat, perhaps with some commentary on how long the feat chain is, we can assume he has not taken a feat since his resurrection. Therefore, we can assume Roy has not leveled to 14. He may have leveled to 13, and indeed it is quite likely. But we cannot know, since nothing we could observe about him would change (his BAB would go up a point, and he'd have six or so new skill points to spend, but that's about it; we'll know he's reached level 16 when he gets four attacks per round).

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0600.html

he jsut saids he needs to spend a feat on it doesnt say its a long feat chain or anything i dont see how we can tell what level is based on him not having whatever specialty feat is needed

maybe its the sort of feat you can only pick after learning the technique

and i dont think us not knowing he explicably took the feat is evidence enough to know he didnt take it yet

[zimmerwald1915]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0600.html

he jsut saids he needs to spend a feat on it doesnt say its a long feat chain or anything i dont see how we can tell what level is based on him not having whatever specialty feat is needed

maybe its the sort of feat you can only pick after learning the technique
Even if Roy met all the prerequisites, or if there were no prerequisites to meet (Horace's description of the feat as being a "pain in the ass to learn" leads me to believe there are probably prerequisites), the earliest Roy would be able to take it is still level 14. Because that's the earliest he could take a new feat.


and i dont think us not knowing he explicably took the feat is evidence enough to know he didnt take it yet
In the absence of evidence saying he took it, or any other new feat, we should assume he did not.

[Warren Dew]

Since he hasn't mentioned or evinced gaining the feat, or mentioned or evinced gaining a prerequisite feat, perhaps with some commentary on how long the feat chain is, we can assume he has not taken a feat since his resurrection. Therefore, we can assume Roy has not leveled to 14.
You know what they say about assumptions.

It strikes me that Roy could have made level 14 in the fight with Thog, and we wouldn't have seen what feat he took yet.

[zimmerwald1915]

You know what they say about assumptions.

It strikes me that Roy could have made level 14 in the fight with Thog, and we wouldn't have seen what feat he took yet.
You're assuming just as much as I am, if not more. The difference is that you are assuming facts not [yet] in evidence, whereas I am not. If it turns out Roy leveled after his fight with Thog, I'll change my position on his current level. Regardless, he had not leveled (or at least commented on doing so the way Elan did at the end of DStP) by the time Tarquin made his "when I was your level" comment, so Tarquin was in no position to know.

[thepsyker]

Oh, and before I forget, we do know the stats of a ruler who did virtually nothing but rule most of his adult life: Shojo was a level 14 Aristocrat. Since Tarquin was an adventurer before trying to conquer a continent and before he began his three-empire scheme, he probably had a leg-up on Shojo, even if he's spent less time at the helm of a nation. A level 15-17 Tarquin is not terribly unlikely, though that doesn't say all that much about his upcoming performance against the OOTS.So your saying just sitting around ruling a city is enough to net you enough experience to reach 14th level?:smalltongue:

[zimmerwald1915]

So your saying just sitting around ruling a city is enough to net you enough experience to reach 14th level?:smalltongue:
Well, a city-state. Azure City's territory was rather extensive. And a city-state, moreover, whose political system necessitated the ruler's survival of several combat encouters (read: assassination attempts) per year, as well as the navigation of many adverse social encounters. But yes. I'm saying Shojo can be taken as a gauge against which we can measure the XP a ruler would gain from doing things rulers do.

[Forikroder]

You're assuming just as much as I am, if not more. The difference is that you are assuming facts not [yet] in evidence, whereas I am not. If it turns out Roy leveled after his fight with Thog, I'll change my position on his current level. Regardless, he had not leveled (or at least commented on doing so the way Elan did at the end of DStP) by the time Tarquin made his "when I was your level" comment, so Tarquin was in no position to know.

your assuming alot more, your assuming that hes at the lowest level possible because you assume that hes going to need alot of feats and you assume he doesnt have the pre-requisites to get the feat he wants so he has to be low level in order to even be physically possible of attaining the feat

and your assuming that jsut becuase he siads its a pain in the ass to learn it must require alot of feats it could jsut require most of the feats normally taken and maybe a couple more obscure one or perhaps it requires you to already learn the technique before you can spend the feat to actually use it or perhaps you need to be a certain level to be able to take it or perhaps need high int/wisdon or perhaps jsut need alot of practice before you can take the feat

were jsut assuming that Roy is a comparable level to the others he was at least equal level to thog and theres no evidence thog was only lvl 14/15

[zimmerwald1915]

your assuming alot more, your assuming that hes at the lowest level possible because you assume that hes going to need alot of feats and you assume he doesnt have the pre-requisites to get the feat he wants so he has to be low level in order to even be physically possible of attaining the feat
Okay, since you seem to be having trouble following my chain of reasoning, here it goes:

1. Roy, along with the rest of the Order, was level 10 when he entered the Dungeon of Dorukan.
2. Roy, along with the rest of the Order, leveled to 11 after defeating the goblin cleric.
3. Roy, along with the rest of the Order (Belkar needed a little catching up), leveled to 12 after staying a night at the small town inn.
4. Some time between teleporting out of Cliffport and returning to Azure City (possibly after defeating the roc whose nest Shojo's wizard teleported them into), Roy, along with the rest of the Order minus Elan (who leveled to 13 by training with Julio) leveled to 13.
5. Roy lost a level, dropping to level 12, when Durkon resurrected him.
6. Roy has not demonstrated gaining a feat since then. There is no evidence, therefore, that Roy has leveled to 14.
8. Roy has not commented on leveling at any point. There is no evidence, therefore, that Roy has leveled at all since his resurrection.
9. Any assertions that Roy is above level 12 are based on instinct and supposition, not on evidence.

The only holes I see in this chain of reasoning are that there is no evidence, other than evidence from later in the comic derived from counting backwards, that the Order was level 10 when they entered the Dungeon of Dorukan, or that Roy started at the same level as the other Order members, or that Roy leveled to 13 at any point. We do know that both Elan and V were level 13 for the Battle of Azure City, and that the Order seems to have leveled together up until the party split after the battle.

I fully admit that Roy might already meet the prerequisites for Horace's feat, or that it might have no prerequisites at all, apart from being a creature capable of taking feats. Either is certainly possible. But my argument does not depend on Horace's feat having prerequisites. My argument is that Roy started the book at level 12, and cannot take Horace's feat, or any other feat for that matter due to the way the feat system and Roy's class are designed, until he reaches level 14. Tarquin is therefore comparing himself to a level 12 or level 13 fighter when he says "it's something I would have done when I was your level". That's it.

There's more geekery fodder lying about here, but this ain't the thread for it. I'll drop it if you will.

[Forikroder]

6. Roy has not demonstrated gaining a feat since then. There is no evidence, therefore, that Roy has leveled to 14.
8. Roy has not commented on leveling at any point. There is no evidence, therefore, that Roy has leveled at all since his resurrection.
9. Any assertions that Roy is above level 12 are based on instinct and supposition, not on evidence.

they dont often declare when theyve leveled with horns and whistles

aside from the 2 levels gained in the dungeon, and elans saying he gained a level there ahvent been any times when they stated when they gained a level because rich specifically is trying to keep what level they are and what feats and such they know as vague as possible so he doesnt pain himself into a corner

plus the giant isnt going to care if Roy is incapable of taking the feat, hed be willing to give roy the feat as soon as he reincarnated he doesnt adhere that strictly to the rules we wont know when Roy took the feat, well only see him use it against Xykon (or possibly sooner)

[zimmerwald1915]

they dont often declare when theyve leveled with horns and whistles

aside from the 2 levels gained in the dungeon, and elans saying he gained a level there ahvent been any times when they stated when they gained a level because rich specifically is trying to keep what level they are and what feats and such they know as vague as possible so he doesnt pain himself into a corner
Which is why, if we're interested in that sort of thing, we look for things dependant on level, such as number of attacks per round or highest spell level cast, to try and determine a minimum level for a character. Roy's minimum possible level is 12, and that's if we assume he started the strip at level 10 (if he'd started at a higher level than the rest of the party he would not have leveled with the rest of the party until his death). You can assert that he's higher level than that. You might even be right. But you can't support such an assertion with evidence from the comic, or even, since DStP, with circumstantial evidence such as "the Order must be around the same level".

[natrl20]

Oh NO!! I just epiphanied that Belkar is gonna get killed by Tarquin after he (Belkar) figures out who the other is by SMELL!!!!

sorry if someone's posted this theory before.

[natrl20]

AAArgh plus i just realized that Belkar can't even get resurrected--didn't the oracle say something like B would "breathe his last before..."?
He could come back as some sort of undead or construct or disembodied spirit but not a living breathing creature.
i don't want Belkar to die :(

[XanKrieger]

The only holes I see in this chain of reasoning are that there is no evidence, other than evidence from later in the comic derived from counting backwards, that the Order was level 10 when they entered the Dungeon of Dorukan, or that Roy started at the same level as the other Order members, or that Roy leveled to 13 at any point. We do know that both Elan and V were level 13 for the Battle of Azure City, and that the Order seems to have leveled together up until the party split after the battle.

I fully admit that Roy might already meet the prerequisites for Horace's feat, or that it might have no prerequisites at all, apart from being a creature capable of taking feats.



There may be another slight hole in this logic. Roy doesn't really remember 90% of his time beyond the pearly gates. After Roy is revived and he is talking to haley he mentions that he just thought of an idea for a cool sword move that he may try out eventually. Besides, he could easily have taken it. He just has yet to get a chance to use it. He has not fought a spellcaster yet and that "feat" seems tailor made to fight them so why use it.

[Forikroder]

AAArgh plus i just realized that Belkar can't even get resurrected--didn't the oracle say something like B would "breathe his last before..."?
He could come back as some sort of undead or construct or disembodied spirit but not a living breathing creature.
i don't want Belkar to die :(

your a bit slow on the uptake huh?

yes belkar will die EVENTUALLY yes when he does die it will be for good but its highly unlikely to happen soon becuase theres nothing stopping them from at the very least chopping off his hand and ressurecting him later on

and there is a 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000% chance of him reconizing Tarquin by smell for a few good reasons

1)he doesnt seem to reconize smells that easily hes a halfling not a bloodhound

2) he never spent much time with Thog and Tarquin

3) "Thog" is wearing stolen armour so Belkar wouldnt think it odd if he smelled like Tarquin

4) in the middle of battle Belkar isnt gonna be paying attention to his nose and wouldnt ahve the time to let people know and the other people wouldnt care

[natrl20]

HA! If Belkar can smell those mummified bodies from way down the canyon (looong before the humans did--nobody even remarked on a strong smell in the room, did they?), then he has a good enough nose to tell the diff between an orc and a human. I'm guessing he can also recognize familiar individuals, although he wouldn't need to do that here.
Belkar could have easily gotten a whiff of T-diddy at the arena before Roy's fight.
Smell recognition does not require attention (such as might be scarce during a fight)--although coming up with rationalizations for things not being as they appear, such as 'stolen armor', do.
So yeah, I'm still going with Belkar smells through Tarquin's deception, and then get's axed to keep quiet.





your a bit slow on the uptake huh?

yes belkar will die EVENTUALLY yes when he does die it will be for good but its highly unlikely to happen soon becuase theres nothing stopping them from at the very least chopping off his hand and ressurecting him later on

and there is a 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000% chance of him reconizing Tarquin by smell for a few good reasons

1)he doesnt seem to reconize smells that easily hes a halfling not a bloodhound

2) he never spent much time with Thog and Tarquin

3) "Thog" is wearing stolen armour so Belkar wouldnt think it odd if he smelled like Tarquin

4) in the middle of battle Belkar isnt gonna be paying attention to his nose and wouldnt ahve the time to let people know and the other people wouldnt care

[Marlowe]

Nope. The Man in the Iron Mask wasn't a book (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_in_the_Iron_Mask#In_popular_culture). :smallamused:

....there's one with that title right there in the "literature" section.:smallconfused:

[Jay R]

Roy doesn't stand a snowball's chance in hell of killing Xykon. It's one of many sources of dramatic tension. :smallwink:You might want to reexamine their first fight, then.
the part where Xykon was completely ignoring him and monologuing and Dorukons uber rune killed Xykon for him?

congrats, you proved Roy has the strength neccesary to lift 100 ppounds over his head big whoop if the rune wasnt there the next round Xykon kills him

It also proves that, depending on the situation, Roy can sometimes defeat Xykon, however unlikely it seems at that moment. Showing a single situation in which Roy beats Xykon is absolute proof that the assertion "Roy doesn't stand a snowball's chance in hell of killing Xykon" is wrong.

That rune won't be in the last fight, but other things will, so we cannot know yet that Roy will have no chance.

As Xykon said, power is power. Sometimes it takes the form of a useful rune nearby. Sometimes it takes the form of having Suggestion and a lizard voice when facing a dragon who can speak lizard. Sometimes it takes the form of a belt of gender-changing when you need a disguise. It could even take the form of a god failing to understand how his own spell works. It could take the form of building a small village at the right time and place, to put one's house inside city limits. It might take the form of whispering just the right thing to a cleric when in delirium and needing a curse lifted. It could take the form of a fast-talking legally-trained pacifist ally. Even in the middle of a fight, power could take the form of cross-class skill ranks in Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering).



Right now, I suspect power takes the form of having a pteranodon nearby and just the right magic items.

And maybe, near the end, power might take the form of a Xykon's phylactery being present at the final battle.

But in any case, in a game or in a story, it is [I]not true that the side with the most obvious form of power always wins.

[natrl20]

Regarding Belkar's olfactory acuity, see #838.
He identifies the mummies, which are still far away, as humans, despite the fact that they smell unfamiliar since they are, after all, mummies. This is before Roy and Haley smell anything at all.
He should DEFINITELY be able to tell that Not-Thog is not Thog.

[ti'esar]

For the record, more info on Belkar's olfactory abilities is here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0383.html)

[Forikroder]

I'm guessing he can also recognize familiar individuals, although he wouldn't need to do that here.

he thought Nale was Elan becuase of the smell of the cloths hell think Thog smells different because of the stolen armour


It also proves that, depending on the situation, Roy can sometimes defeat Xykon, however unlikely it seems at that moment. Showing a single situation in which Roy beats Xykon is absolute proof that the assertion "Roy doesn't stand a snowball's chance in hell of killing Xykon" is wrong.

alright fine, Roy can beat Xykon assuming Xykon stands there and does absolutely nothing and theres epic magic nearby to kill Xykon for him or some other deus ex machina allows Roy to win

aside from such, theres is no way for Roy to ever win a 1v1

[rewinn]

Arguing how many levels higher T is than the Order sort of misses a couple of points:
1. T has the best equipment money can buy and the smarts to use it.
2. The LG has had time to buff.

Either factor alone is worth a couple of levels, but put them together with the Order's known damage, and suddenly T's jumping into the middle of 5 foes (?possibly with Belkar's impounded ring?) is reminiscent of Kubota mocking Elan as he walked away. So T's exact level is probably the least important thing.

[Forikroder]

Arguing how many levels higher T is than the Order sort of misses a couple of point:
1. T has the best equipment money can buy and the smarts to use it.
2. The LG has had time to buff.

Either factor alone is worth a couple of levels, but put them together with the Order's known damage, and suddenly T's jumping into the middle of 5 foes (?possibly with Belkar's impounded ring?) is reminiscent of Kubota mocking Elan as he walked away. So T's exact level is probably the least important thing.

not exactly the best items money can buy its not like Malack is gonna wip out the hand of vekna or anything the shear amount of wealth that epic level adventurers have is staggering i mean look at what Dorukon and Serini managed to do with there money its not much of an overstatement to stay the order of the scribble had more wealth then some countries

all in all there equipment is probably pretty even at least its not so tilted in Tarquins favour that the equipment alone means he cant lose

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0785.html

if hes concerned about wasting only 50 grand then he obviously doesnt have as much resources as some people think

i mena Xykon probably spent more on his crystal ball then Tarquin did on the games

[Omergideon]

Arguements going back and forth here are interesting, but I still stand by my comment that regardless of if Tarquin should be capable of taking out the order in this situation I think a relatively easy or conclusive victory would harm the story to no end. A bare victory for either side, or a roughly even match however would be better thematically and not sideline the people who should be taking the fight to Xykon.


But regardless I have one question. Assuming normal 3.5 rules it is my feeling that level disparities matter less and less as we get higher. For instance a Level 1 fighter will get curbstomped by a level 3 one with almost no effort, but a level 12 fighter might take a level 14 one if he gets lucky. Is this a fair assumption or am I underestimating how things change at high level play?

And I also am of the camp that "when I was your level" is just an idiomatic way of reffering to a persons age. Though the fact that Tarquin has not seen Roy fighting with his favoured magical weapon, magic belt or other doo-hickies may mean he is being underestimated (after all, a barbarian in no armour is less weakened than a Fighter in that scenario). Him and the rest of the order.

[ti'esar]

Arguements going back and forth here are interesting, but I still stand by my comment that regardless of if Tarquin should be capable of taking out the order in this situation I think a relatively easy or conclusive victory would harm the story to no end. A bare victory for either side, or a roughly even match however would be better thematically and not sideline the people who should be taking the fight to Xykon.

And I stand by the person before who said that your argument basically boils down to this:


Plus I somewhat hate Tarquin and want to see him fail badly.

Although I normally respect the "reviews" you post for each comic - even if I don't always agree with them - I find it difficult to take any review seriously when its writer can't even try to be objective. While I'd rather not see Tarquin curb-stomp the OOTS either, and also for personal reasons (though it's not so much that I dislike him as his more rabid fans), I'm not trying to claim it would actually hurt the story, and I think it's a bit presumptuous to equate your personal opinion to something's objective artistic merits.