Turning Psion into the Second most broken thing in the game

[Emperor Tippy]

I was bored earlier and figured out how to turn the Psion into the most broken entity in the entire game, although in reality you can do this with any starting class.

First, how to do it as a psion.

Step 1: Be at least level 17 and know the power Greater Metamorphosis.
Step 2: Use Greater Metamorphosis to change into a Lilitu (FC1, page 43).
Step 3: Use your Item Use (Ex) ability to use a scroll of gate to gate in a Solar.
Step 4: Order the Solar to Wish you up a scroll of Ice Assassin of a Revered Elder Phaerimm with the spells Ice Assassin, Wish, Gate, Shapechange, and Enervation as spells known and has maxed UMD.
Step 5: Use your Item Use ability to cast your IA scroll from step 4.
Step 6: Order your IA Phaerimm to Shapechange into a Barghest.
Step 7: Cast Fusion with your IA Phaerimm Barghest.
Step 8: Cast Enervation on yourself until you have at least 12 negative levels.
Step 9: Use your Feed (Su) ability to consume 3 pre positioned humanoids (helpless, paralyzed, at 1 HP each) with at least 8 HD.
Step 10: Use your Item Use (Ex) ability to UMD a Scroll of Restoration to remove the negative levels.
Step 11: Use Astral Seed.
Step 12: Kill yourself.
Step 13: You return to life as your Astral Seed and spend a week recreating your body, when you are done you loose the HD gained from the Feed ability in step 9. You now permanently have all of the Fusion you's abilities.

That would be 19th level Sorcerer casting with all spells being treated as if they were SLA's, 17th level Psionic abilities and a whole host of Ex abilities (including Feed and Item use). Now onto the next step.

Step 14: Use your Ice Assassin spell (treated as an SLA) to create an Ice Assassin of a Psionic Elder Brain with it's powers known list being made up entirely of powers that you don't already know.
Step 15: Use Fusion to combine with the IA Elder Brain.
Step 16: Use Enervation to drop your HD down below 8.
Step 17: Eat another 3 humanoids to raise an HD.
Step 18: Use Restoration to regain the negative levels.
Step 19: Cast Astral Seed.
Step 20: Kill yourself.
Step 21: Recreate your body. This time your ML becomes 20, you have an additional 423 PP, and your powers known list has just doubled (along with getting a bunch of other useful abilities).

Repeat this process to pick up every monster ability in the game along with the highest published score for each attribute and highest skill ranks in every skill and every feat in the game. Then go and do it with a Greater Deity, although you are going to end up loosing a couple of your excess HD because of inability to make him take negative levels.

The last step is to create an Aleax Ice Assassin of your original body and have him turn into your original body using his shapechange ability so that his type changes from construct to whatever you originally were. You then fuse with it and cast an epic spell that is mitigated with enough backlash damage to kill you after you have cast the Astral seed (this is the only way to get around an Aleax's Singular Enemy ability). You then recreate your body with all of your abilities (everyone of them in the game) and get on with your life.

---
If you aren't a Psion then you can still pull this off by using the Elder Brain IA first (make sure it has Fusion, Astral Seed, Greater Metamorphosis, and enough UMD points to use the Scroll of Restoration) and ordering it to relinquish control to you once the Fusion is performed. Then you basically do the exact same thing as the Psion.

The only thing more broken than this is Manipulate Form.

[Myou]

Seems to me that Ice Assassin is one of those things that would have been just fine if WotC had bothered to release some errata.

Also, you have way too much spare time. :smallbiggrin:

[Emperor Tippy]

Seems to me that Ice Assassin is one of those things that would have been just fine if WotC had bothered to release some errata.

Also, you have way too much spare time. :smallbiggrin:

There is a reason I call it the most broken and powerful spell in the game.

And this entire thing took me less than an hour, total. It honestly took me longer to type it up than it did for me to think it up.

---
Inside the spoiler is a more refined version.

Step 1: Be at least level 17 and know the power Greater Metamorphosis.
Step 2: Use Greater Metamorphosis to change into a Lilitu (FC1, page 43).
Step 3: Use your Item Use (Ex) ability to use a scroll of gate to gate in a Solar.
Step 4: Order the Solar to Wish you up a scroll of Ice Assassin of a Psionic Elder Brain with the powers Fusion, Psionic Restoration, Mindwipe, and Astral Seed on his powers known list (as it's a scroll this gets around the need for a material component for Ice Assassin)
Step 5: Use your Item Use ability to activate the scroll.
Step 6: Catch 3 humanoid creatures of at least 8 HD and paralyze them, bring them down to 1 HP, and place them by you.
Step 7: Order your IA Elder Brain to use Fusion with you and to immediately relinquish control to you one it is manifested.
Step 8: Use Greater Metamorphosis to turn into a Barghest.
Step 9: Use Mindwipe on yourself to give yourself 19 negative levels (might require repeated manifestations).
Step 10: Use your Feed ability to consume the humanoids from step 6.
Step 11: Manifest Psionic Restoration to clear away your negative levels.
Step 12: Manifest Astral Seed.
Step 13: Kill yourself.
Step 14: Rebuild your body, you now have all the abilities of the fusion (including Ex, SU, and SP).
Step 15: Use your Item Use ability to gate in another Solar and this time have it Wish up a scroll of Ice Assassin of an Elder Phaerimm with the spells Ice Assassin, and Wish on it's list of spells known.
Step 16: Use the IA scroll.
Step 17: Repeat the above to gain all of the Phaerimm's abilities, most especially it's ability to cast as a 19th level Sorcerer and have it's spells be treated as spell like abilities.
Step 18: Create IA's of every creature and class, repeating the process as necessary and using shapechange to get the monsters that wouldn't qualify for Fusion to qualify.

Once you have done all that, create an IA of a Greater Deity. Use Fusion on it and then kill yourself after manifesting Astral Seed. You loose an HD (can't hit deities with negative levels) but that is a small price to pay for 20 divine ranks.

The last IA should be an Aleax Ice Assassin of your original body (unless you know longer want that base form, in which case choose whichever base form you want instead). Have it use it's shapechange ability to loose the construct type by shifting into the base form you want. Use Fusion with it (taking on it's physical form) and then cast an epic spell that is loaded down with backlash damage, as much as you can. This is the only way to kill an Aleax who's singular enemy isn't around. Once you remake your body you will have the base form you want, multiple copies of every single ability in the game, 20 divine ranks, and be totally immune to all harm except Epic spell backlash damage.

If you want to pick up Manipulate Form and Illithid Savant, feel free for the complete set but you don't need to use them in any way.


I call this the Path of Ascension.

[Heliomance]

What are the negative levels for?

[Emperor Tippy]

What are the negative levels for?

The Barghest (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/barghest.htm) has the ability feed. It says


When a barghest slays a humanoid opponent, it can feed on the corpse, devouring both flesh and life force, as a full-round action. Feeding destroys the victim’s body and prevents any form of raising or resurrection that requires part of the corpse. There is a 50% chance that a wish, miracle, or true resurrection spell can restore a devoured victim to life. Check once for each destroyed creature. If the check fails, the creature cannot be brought back to life by mortal magic.

A barghest advances in Hit Dice by consuming corpses in this fashion. For every three suitable corpses a barghest devours, it gains 1 Hit Die, and its Strength, Constitution, and natural armor increase by +1. Its attack bonus and saves improve as normal for an outsider of its Hit Dice, and it gains skill points, feats, and ability score improvements normally.

The barghest only advances by consuming the corpses of creatures whose Hit Dice or levels are equal to or greater than its own current total. A barghest that reaches 9 Hit Dice through feeding immediately becomes a greater barghest upon completion of the act.
You might or might not need the negative levels (so that feeding only raises you to 8 HD) but it depends on the DM (do you only become a greater barghest when you hit exactly 9 HD or at any point after 9 HD when you gain an HD through Feeding) so I included them.

That HD is the one that get's consumed when you recreate your body with Astral Seed (it being the last HD you gained).

[Analytica]

Doesn't Phaerimm have some weird trait called Archetypal Form or something that means that a) nothing can transform into them and b) they cannot themselves transform into anything else? I.e. are they actually able to benefit from shapechange effects? I may well misremember, though.

[Emperor Tippy]

Doesn't Phaerimm have some weird trait called Archetypal Form or something that means that a) nothing can transform into them and b) they cannot themselves transform into anything else? I.e. are they actually able to benefit from shapechange effects? I may well misremember, though.
No, you would be thinking of the Sharn from Monsters of FR. Which is incidentally one of the few monsters you don't want to eat. You could still Ice Assassin a Sharn but if you eat one then you end up with the Fixed Form ability which prevents you from changing your own form.

[Dancingdeath]

Sharn have that as well.

[Emperor Tippy]

Sharn have that as well.
Sharn are the only ones who have it, Phaerimm don't.

[Chronos]

Kind of underwhelming, I think. I mean, wasn't the original version of Pun-Pun a psion, too? And you have to be 17th level, at which point any full-caster is already breaking the game anyway.

Though I suppose you did do it without Sarrukhs, though, which counts for something.

[Myou]

I remember there being a monster published somewhere that could create anything they wanted out of thin air, I think the idea was they made weapons appear in their hands, but the total lack of restrictions means that they are essentially pun-pun but at a higher starting level.


Kind of underwhelming, I think. I mean, wasn't the original version of Pun-Pun a psion, too? And you have to be 17th level, at which point any full-caster is already breaking the game anyway.

Though I suppose you did do it without Sarrukhs, though, which counts for something.

Pun pun was a kobold. :smallconfused:

[Saito Takuji]

dear lord ice assassian seems crazy broken... whats it actually do

[tyckspoon]

Pun pun was a kobold. :smallconfused:

Race is/was not especially relevant to the higher-level methods of ascending Pun-Pun; almost any of the methods they use to gain access to Manipulate Form also let you change your type, which lets you turn yourself into a valid target for Manipulate Form (of course, if you permit Manipulate Form to edit/create new abilities instead of just granting ones as-printed, you simply have the target restriction removed from the version of Manipulate Form you grant yourself and it doesn't matter.) The low-level tricks could be done with any acceptable target for Manipulate Form as well (lizardmen, random snake-blooded people, Skarns and Rilkans from Incarnum.. Kobold was chosen for the irony of creating the game's most powerful being from one of its weakest.)


dear lord ice assassian seems crazy broken... whats it actually do

Creates a perfect copy of the subject of the spell, complete with all its powers. The *purpose* is to create a mirror-match enemy- the Assassin, as you might guess from the name of the spell, is created with a compulsion to destroy the original of itself. The stupid part is in addition to that, the creator of the assassin has complete command over it. So functionally speaking, what you actually get is a sort of Greater Simulacrum- a fully powered copy of a person/monster/whatever that obeys you, and happens to have this personality quirk where it *really wants* to murder a particular being.

Edit: The other thing that breaks the crap out of it is that the writers never made a distinction between a Material Component that has no value because it's not worth anything- the kind of random crap you're supposed to have in a Spell Component Pouch and that you can skip with Eschew Materials- and a Material Component that has no value because it's a unique item and cannot be assigned a value, like the artifact for Apocalypse From The Sky or the piece-of-the-subject component for Simulacrum and Ice Assassin. The result is that having a Spell Component Pouch or Eschew Materials lets you make a Simulacrum/Ice Assassin of any dang thing you want. (This is one of the more obviously stupid and unintended consequences of RAW, but it's there.)

[Jack_Simth]

I was bored earlier and figured out how to turn the Psion into the most broken entity in the entire game, although in reality you can do this with any starting class.

First, how to do it as a psion.

Step 1: Be at least level 17 and know the power Greater Metamorphosis.
Step 2: Use Greater Metamorphosis to change into a Lilitu (FC1, page 43).
Step 3: Use your Item Use (Ex) ability to use a scroll of gate to gate in a Solar.
Step 4: Order the Solar to Wish you up a scroll of Ice Assassin of a Revered Elder Phaerimm with the spells Ice Assassin, Wish, Gate, Shapechange, and Enervation as spells known and has maxed UMD.
You've got four 9th level spells known in there. Phaerimm cast as Sorcerers, and cap out at three 9th's. Oh yes, and unless you specify an advanced Revered Elder Phaerim, the highest they go is effective sorcerer level 19, for only two 9th level spells known.

Additionally, with Greater Metamorphosis, you could just turn into a Zodar, and get Wish directly, skipping the scroll of Gate.

Oh yes, and Phaerimm are specifically immune to polymorph, and specifically for good or for ill. Shapechange inherits from Polymorph.


Step 5: Use your Item Use ability to cast your IA scroll from step 4.
Step 6: Order your IA Phaerimm to Shapechange into a Barghest.
Step 7: Cast Fusion with your IA Phaerimm Barghest.
Step 8: Cast Enervation on yourself until you have at least 12 negative levels.
Step 9: Use your Feed (Su) ability to consume 3 pre positioned humanoids (helpless, paralyzed, at 1 HP each) with at least 8 HD.
Step 10: Use your Item Use (Ex) ability to UMD a Scroll of Restoration to remove the negative levels.
Step 11: Use Astral Seed.
Step 12: Kill yourself.
Step 13: You return to life as your Astral Seed and spend a week recreating your body, when you are done you loose the HD gained from the Feed ability in step 9. You now permanently have all of the Fusion you's abilities.

That would be 19th level Sorcerer casting with all spells being treated as if they were SLA's, 17th level Psionic abilities and a whole host of Ex abilities (including Feed and Item use). Now onto the next step.

Step 14: Use your Ice Assassin spell (treated as an SLA) to create an Ice Assassin of a Psionic Elder Brain with it's powers known list being made up entirely of powers that you don't already know.
Step 15: Use Fusion to combine with the IA Elder Brain.
Step 16: Use Enervation to drop your HD down below 8.
Step 17: Eat another 3 humanoids to raise an HD.
Step 18: Use Restoration to regain the negative levels.
Step 19: Cast Astral Seed.
Step 20: Kill yourself.
Step 21: Recreate your body. This time your ML becomes 20, you have an additional 423 PP, and your powers known list has just doubled (along with getting a bunch of other useful abilities).

Repeat this process to pick up every monster ability in the game along with the highest published score for each attribute and highest skill ranks in every skill and every feat in the game. Then go and do it with a Greater Deity, although you are going to end up loosing a couple of your excess HD because of inability to make him take negative levels.

The last step is to create an Aleax Ice Assassin of your original body and have him turn into your original body using his shapechange ability so that his type changes from construct to whatever you originally were. You then fuse with it and cast an epic spell that is mitigated with enough backlash damage to kill you after you have cast the Astral seed (this is the only way to get around an Aleax's Singular Enemy ability). You then recreate your body with all of your abilities (everyone of them in the game) and get on with your life.

---
If you aren't a Psion then you can still pull this off by using the Elder Brain IA first (make sure it has Fusion, Astral Seed, Greater Metamorphosis, and enough UMD points to use the Scroll of Restoration) and ordering it to relinquish control to you once the Fusion is performed. Then you basically do the exact same thing as the Psion.

The only thing more broken than this is Manipulate Form.
Incidentally, this is just a different route for manipulate form, and is otherwise essentially the same thing done in the pun-pun thread. The only real advantage of Manipulate Form is that it technically lets you make up fully new abilities.

Of course, Manipulate Form has a problem if the DM enforces the magical stacking rules for Su abilities, this doesn't. Hmm.

[Saito Takuji]

fun stuff that ice assassian then, what book is it from?

[Jack_Simth]

fun stuff that ice assassian then, what book is it from?Frostburn.

[Emperor Tippy]

You've got four 9th level spells known in there. Phaerimm cast as Sorcerers, and cap out at three 9th's. Oh yes, and unless you specify an advanced Revered Elder Phaerim, the highest they go is effective sorcerer level 19, for only two 9th level spells known.
True, they only need Ice Assassin with wish being nice.


Additionally, with Greater Metamorphosis, you could just turn into a Zodar, and get Wish directly, skipping the scroll of Gate.
Yep.


Oh yes, and Phaerimm are specifically immune to polymorph, and specifically for good or for ill. Shapechange inherits from Polymorph.
Even if you argue that that applies to themselves, Greater Metamorphosis isn't a polymorph effect and can still be used just fine.


Incidentally, this is just a different route for manipulate form, and is otherwise essentially the same thing done in the pun-pun thread. The only real advantage of Manipulate Form is that it technically lets you make up fully new abilities.

Of course, Manipulate Form has a problem if the DM enforces the magical stacking rules for Su abilities, this doesn't. Hmm.
Oh, Pun-Pun can do more (why I said the second most broken thing) and can do it faster but most other TO builds that aren't touching Manipulate Form can't get every single ability in the game. Anything that any other TO build can do, this can do as well and usually be better at it.

[Jack_Simth]

Even if you argue that that applies to themselves, Greater Metamorphosis isn't a polymorph effect and can still be used just fine.
Due to it being psychometabolism (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#psychometabolism), which has the clause "For the purpose of psionics-magic transparency, psychometabolism powers are equivalent to powers of the transmutation school (thus, creatures immune to transmutation spells are also immune to psychometabolism powers)", this is debatable, and would vary by DM.

Of course, TO things generally assume best possible interpretation, so it doesn't matter too terribly much, I suppose.

Oh, Pun-Pun can do more (why I said the second most broken thing) and can do it faster but most other TO builds that aren't touching Manipulate Form can't get every single ability in the game. Anything that any other TO build can do, this can do as well and usually be better at it.Usually.

Ah, another potential flaw:
Some DM's will have the 'same abilities as when you manifested it' bit also apply to durations - so when your body completes, the counters for your fusion resume ticking down, and you have a very interesting way to duplicate ice assasins and simulacrums.

Edit:
And another:
You might accidentally pick up the Ice Assasin's healing clause.

[marcielle]

Has anyone else seen the awesome BBEG material? An enemy that is THE ENTIRE MONSTER MANUAL.:smallbiggrin:
Thank you, Mr. Tippy.

[Emperor Tippy]

Oh, something fun that just occurred to me.

Create an Ice Assassin of a Fusion between multiple creatures.

"Why yes, that is an Ice Assassin of a level 20 Factotum, level 20 Warblade, level 20 Psion from each discipline, level 20 wizard, level 20 sorcerer, level 20 cleric, level 20 artificer, level 20 swordsage, level 20 rogue Aleax Solar, Big T, and a dozen other monsters with every stat in the 40's".

If the DM rules that you need an actual sample from whatever you want to Ice Assassin, then just create Ice Assassin's of the component parts, combine them with Fusion, and then get a sample from the Fusion to create the next Ice Assassin.

[Chronos]

Oh, Pun-Pun can do more (why I said the second most broken thing) and can do it faster but most other TO builds that aren't touching Manipulate Form can't get every single ability in the game.Can't an Illithid Savant do something similar?

[Aharon]

Excellent work, but I still disagree on the last step (aleax). I would be really grateful if you could provide reasoning for why you think the text that states they are created by gods when you anger them and don't exist otherwise constitutes fluff and not crunch - it has a distinct rules effect, and as far as I'm aware, the MM explanation of monster entries doesn't state that information not mentioned directly in the stat block doesn't constitute crunch.

I don't insist on my position, it would just be nice to get a more extensive answer than "It's fluff." I'm sure with your rules knowledge, you can point out a source that supports your position.

@Jack Simth
The Spells known problem can be solved by demanding an advanced Phaerimm with the feat for 10th level spell slots and the Extra Spell feat.

Phaerimms immunity to polymorph can be undone with a spell from Serpent Kingdoms (called Ability Rip, IIRC).

[Mithril Leaf]

Can't an Illithid Savant do something similar?

This.

At level 10 a Illithid Savant can do the exact same thing to anything it can kill. Since it can gain the power of anything it kills, it can bootstrap its way to killing anything. Tada, same thing, significantly earlier. You did manage to copy the Illithid Savant's signature ability using normally non-banned material, which is impressive. Kudos.

[Emperor Tippy]

Can't an Illithid Savant do something similar?

Yes and no. IS can only do it to things that have a brain, and have to eat other IS to gain their abilities. This can do it to anything, regardless of whether it has a brain or not, and doesn't require that anything else exist.

Everything this build does it can do entirely under it's own power (use Greater Metamorphis to become a Zodar, use your wish ability to Wish up an IA scroll, use GM to turn into a Lilitu, use your item use ability to use your IA scroll, etc.). Nothing needed except your own power.

You could theoretically pull this off with any build so long as you could get an initial casting of gate (say from a scroll), your first IA just has to be a psionic character with Fusion and Astral Seed.


Excellent work, but I still disagree on the last step (aleax). I would be really grateful if you could provide reasoning for why you think the text that states they are created by gods when you anger them and don't exist otherwise constitutes fluff and not crunch - it has a distinct rules effect, and as far as I'm aware, the MM explanation of monster entries doesn't state that information not mentioned directly in the stat block doesn't constitute crunch.

I don't insist on my position, it would just be nice to get a more extensive answer than "It's fluff." I'm sure with your rules knowledge, you can point out a source that supports your position.
In this case I am already a god before I create it. The Aleax step comes after the divinity step.

Leaving that aside, you aren't creating an Aleax. You are creating an Ice Assassin of an Aleax. It might have all the abilities and be in every way identical to an Aleax but it's not.


@Jack Simth
The Spells known problem can be solved by demanding an advanced Phaerimm with the feat for 10th level spell slots and the Extra Spell feat.

Phaerimms immunity to polymorph can be undone with a spell from Serpent Kingdoms (called Ability Rip, IIRC).
Nope, it's an Ex immunity. I don't know of any way to rip those off.

[Aharon]

@Extraordinary ability removal
Trait Removal, Sor/Wiz 5, Serpent Kingdoms p.158 specifically says it affects supernatural and extraordinary abilities

also
Knowledge Domain affiliation, rank 4, Complete Champion p. 36 doesn't specify the type of ability, so assumably includes supernatural and extraordinary (but is a slightly weaker case than the above)

@Aleax
Yes, but Ice Assassin is limited to creating copies of creatures that exist. level 20 Factotum, level 20 Warblade, level 20 Psion from each discipline, level 20 wizard, level 20 sorcerer, level 20 cleric, level 20 artificer, level 20 swordsage, level 20 rogue aleax solar - no problem because of infinite planes.

Aleax - specifically are only called into creation by gods for specific reasons, at specific points of space (close to the creature they are an aleax of). You still can creat an Aleax of anything else - but not of yourself, because there's only one of you - no argument via infinity possible.

[Emperor Tippy]

@Extraordinary ability removal
Trait Removal, Sor/Wiz 5, Serpent Kingdoms p.158 specifically says it affects supernatural and extraordinary abilities

also
Knowledge Domain affiliation, rank 4, Complete Champion p. 36 doesn't specify the type of ability, so assumably includes supernatural and extraordinary (but is a slightly weaker case than the above)
Thank you. Now I can remove the abilities that I don't want first.


@Aleax
Yes, but Ice Assassin is limited to creating copies of creatures that exist. level 20 Factotum, level 20 Warblade, level 20 Psion from each discipline, level 20 wizard, level 20 sorcerer, level 20 cleric, level 20 artificer, level 20 swordsage, level 20 rogue aleax solar - no problem because of infinite planes.

Aleax - specifically are only called into creation by gods for specific reasons, at specific points of space (close to the creature they are an aleax of). You still can creat an Aleax of anything else - but not of yourself, because there's only one of you - no argument via infinity possible.

No, Ice Assassin is limited to creating creatures that you can supply the biological material component for. The creature would have to exist for there to be a sample, if we weren't using tricks to get around needing to provide the material component.

[Aharon]

@trait removal
You're welcome

@assassin
I don't see how you arrive at that conclusion. I'm quoting the part of the spell text that I think is relevant:



An ice assassin spell creates a living, breathing creature that is a near-perfect duplicate of an existing creature. [...] The ice assassin possesses all the skills, abilities and memories possessed by the original[...]

Bolded parts by me, on which I based my belief that the creature has to exist, even if one obviates the need for a component via Eschew materials.
I would be happy to change my mind :smallsmile:

[Emperor Tippy]

If you really care that much, I create an Aleax (which I can do as I'm a deity) of the Ice Assassin of myself that I left lying around so that I would have my original body back when I'm finished ascending and then create an Ice Assassin of that to fuse with.

[Rubik]

Bolded parts by me, on which I based my belief that the creature has to exist, even if one obviates the need for a component via Eschew materials.
I would be happy to change my mind :smallsmile:This is why I prefer to create an aleax of myself, since I obviously exist (existentialism aside); I basically just use Metamorphosis on my psicrystal, Fusion with it, then create the appropriate ice assassins to Fuse with before eventually making an aleax one.

Swordsaged! Aleax'd!

[Rejusu]

It's impressive but I'd be more impressed if it did it purely using powers. This just goes to show that the most broken things in the game are still spells.

[Alleran]

Race is/was not especially relevant to the higher-level methods of ascending Pun-Pun; almost any of the methods they use to gain access to Manipulate Form also let you change your type, which lets you turn yourself into a valid target for Manipulate Form
Actually, I believe one of the limitations on Pun-Pun is that he must be (or start out as when he begins his Manipulate Form shenanigans) a Scaled One native to Toril, that is also not aquatic or undead. Otherwise, Manipulate Form won't work on him, because it only works on a Scaled One that is native to Toril.

[Malachei]

Seems to me that Ice Assassin is one of those things that would have been just fine if WotC had bothered to release some errata.

Also, you have way too much spare time. :smallbiggrin:

I think I can count the posts where the OP does not mention Ice Assassin. But I don't have the time to do it ;)

Anyway, another fine example of what one may consider TO, another may consider PO, a third may consider a fun way to play the game and a fourth may consider a waste of time. Each to his own, but I'd love to see less of the Ice Assassin trick in a new clothing. Whether the psion uses Ice Assassin to become "oh-so-powerful", or a wizard does, I don't care at all.

[Frog Dragon]

I find it amusing that the idea of DM adjudication is brought up in a thread like this. I mean, I know what you mean by it, but I'm pretty sure that if you tried this in a game, you wouldn't get a ruling, you'd get a DMG-induced concussion.

[Rejusu]

Kind of underwhelming, I think. I mean, wasn't the original version of Pun-Pun a psion, too? And you have to be 17th level, at which point any full-caster is already breaking the game anyway.

Though I suppose you did do it without Sarrukhs, though, which counts for something.

Pun pun was a kobold. :smallconfused:

Last I checked Kobold's could be Psions.

[Answerer]

Anyway, another fine example of what one may consider TO, another may consider PO, a third may consider a fun way to play the game and a fourth may consider a waste of time. Each to his own, but I'd love to see less of the Ice Assassin trick in a new clothing. Whether the psion uses Ice Assassin to become "oh-so-powerful", or a wizard does, I don't care at all.
What? This is pure TO. No one would play this. "Playing" this wouldn't even be a game.

[Malachei]

What? This is pure TO. No one would play this. "Playing" this wouldn't even be a game.

I'm not sure the OP would agree.