Wild shaping (druid)

[Meness]

Hi,

I will soon play a druid and had some question about wild shaping in 3.5.

If you are tied by a rope or something, can you wild shape to a snake for instance and get free?
I'm wondering about several things here :
can you even use wild shape when tied (I think so since it's supernatural)?
Your equipment is supposed to melt with you, is the rope considered as equipment? And then, say the rope is tied to a wall, the wall is your equipment too oO ?

I'd like to know also if there is any book specifying if feats are something like "special qualities" so you do not have the feats of the form you take? or if there is any specification about feats and wild shape.
I read here :http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Alternate_Form that you do not get the feats but I'd like to know if it's written in any book.

I was also wondering if there was a feat to take to get the special qualities of the form you take, like the one for supernatural powers.

I hope my questions are clear enough :)

[FearlessGnome]

You can indeed wildshape whilst bound. This makes it quite hard to capture a druid alive, unless you knock them unconscious and keep them that way.

The rope would... probably meld, which leads to an interesting situation when the wildshape ends. Get out a sharp blade, I guess? Nothing that isn't held or worn, though, so the wall is safe. Note also that if your hands are tied behind your back and you turn into a bear, nothing stops you from returning to normal form while your paws are held straight up, letting them sneakily avoid being held by the rope.

The spell Enhance Wildshape, from the Spell Compendium, will give you the (Ex) qualities of your form, but I don't think a feat for it exists.

By RAW, Assume Supernatural Ability does not work, since Wildshape has been errata'd to be based on Alter Self and not Polymorph.

[Ranting Fool]

Note also that if your hands are tied behind your back and you turn into a bear, nothing stops you from returning to normal form while your paws are held straight up, letting them sneakily avoid being held by the rope.


Unless when you wildshape your DM says you shift back in to the same basic shape you were before? Depends on the DM since shifting is rather odd (Since your mass changes when you become large/tiny)

[Venger]

Hi,

I will soon play a druid and had some question about wild shaping in 3.5.

If you are tied by a rope or something, can you wild shape to a snake for instance and get free?
I'm wondering about several things here :
can you even use wild shape when tied (I think so since it's supernatural)?
Your equipment is supposed to melt with you, is the rope considered as equipment? And then, say the rope is tied to a wall, the wall is your equipment too oO ?

I'd like to know also if there is any book specifying if feats are something like "special qualities" so you do not have the feats of the form you take? or if there is any specification about feats and wild shape.
I read here :http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Alternate_Form that you do not get the feats but I'd like to know if it's written in any book.

I was also wondering if there was a feat to take to get the special qualities of the form you take, like the one for supernatural powers.

I hope my questions are clear enough :)

wild shape is indeed supernatural and thus has no components. a snake would make your limbs disappear, and a larger form, such as bear, would burst the ropes.

as far as racial feats go, that's kind of iffy. there is always "assume supernatural ability" if that's what you're referring to. what exactly do you mean?

careful there, dandwiki is not a good website for rules information. much of it is homebrew and not labeled as such in a clear matter. it's got just enough real material copied from the phb and dmg to confuse a new player. use this site instead:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm

it's got all real RAW info.

as previously mentioned, enhance wildshape, a druid 4 gives you ex special qualities. momf7 also gives that (in addition to more creature types available via wildshape) and as for su stuff, there is a feat called assume supernatural ability. you pick 1 creature you turn into and 1 of its su abilities, for example a beholder's eye rays and you get to use that (with some restrictions) when you turn into him. this is obviously best if you're planning on beefing up your wildshape somehow, as I don't know any animals with su abilities.

[Darth Stabber]

If you are of good alignment and can meet the lofty conduct requirements of an exalted feat, you should take exalted wild shape (BoED). It gives you several additional forms to assume (unicorn, blink dog, and two others I don't remember), and gives your other forms the celestial template. It also let's you use all of the EX and SU abilities of things you wildshape into. Pick it up at 9, and at 12 grab dragon wildshape (draconimacon I think), which is great on it's own, but when combined with exalted wildshape it is vicious.

Who doesn't want to be a celestial black dragon? BoED also has the very nice Lion Of Talasid. PRC which is full casting, full companion, and 8/10 wildshaping, it gives several nice abilities for any druid, and the only req you have to worry about is favored of the champions (which sucks, but that's prereqs for you).

The wildshape feat from frostburn has a couple of nice forms in it too, most notably urskan.

Sometimes good gets nice toys too.

[Venger]

If you are of good alignment and can meet the lofty conduct requirements of an exalted feat, you should take exalted wild shape (BoED). It gives you several additional forms to assume (unicorn, blink dog, and two others I don't remember), and gives your other forms the celestial template. It also let's you use all of the EX and SU abilities of things you wildshape into. Pick it up at 9, and at 12 grab dragon wildshape (draconimacon I think), which is great on it's own, but when combined with exalted wildshape it is vicious.
it also lets you turn into a giant eagle, giant owl, or pegasus, but really, blink dog and unicorn ought to cover it. go pegasus if you need to fly for whatever reason, the other two aren't useful. it also says that if your DM's cool with it, you can turn into other magical beasts too, so the sky's the limit.


Who doesn't want to be a celestial black dragon? BoED also has the very nice Lion Of Talasid. PRC which is full casting, full companion, and 8/10 wildshaping, it gives several nice abilities for any druid, and the only req you have to worry about is favored of the champions (which sucks, but that's prereqs for you).

The wildshape feat from frostburn has a couple of nice forms in it too, most notably urskan.

Sometimes good gets nice toys too.

while urskan is great, don't forget about the cryohydra. it has the cold subtype and is a magical beast, so is eligible for frozen wildshape.

[Darth Stabber]

it also lets you turn into a giant eagle, giant owl, or pegasus, but really, blink dog and unicorn ought to cover it. go pegasus if you need to fly for whatever reason, the other two aren't useful. it also says that if your DM's cool with it, you can turn into other magical beasts too, so the sky's the limit.



while urskan is great, don't forget about the cryohydra. it has the cold subtype and is a magical beast, so is eligible for frozen wildshape.

I forgot about cryohydra! You'd think that would be the one I'd remember.

Also, druid is one of the few classes that actually benefit from VoP (or rather is the class least damaged by it). And since the benefits are from a feat, they all apply in wild shape, including the armor bonus. It's up to like 5 or 6 by the time you get wild shape, and since the only weakness of wildshapers is weak ac, you might actually come out on top by taking it. Actually given that wildshape druids need wilding clasps dor almost every slot, the only thing you loose out on is your spell completion items (wands, staves, scrolls), so the biggest difference is spell preperation, since if you don't prep it, you don't got it.

[Venger]

I forgot about cryohydra! You'd think that would be the one I'd remember.

Also, druid is one of the few classes that actually benefit from VoP (or rather is the class least damaged by it). And since the benefits are from a feat, they all apply in wild shape, including the armor bonus. It's up to like 5 or 6 by the time you get wild shape, and since the only weakness of wildshapers is weak ac, you might actually come out on top by taking it. Actually given that wildshape druids need wilding clasps dor almost every slot, the only thing you loose out on is your spell completion items (wands, staves, scrolls), so the biggest difference is spell preperation, since if you don't prep it, you don't got it.

well, hey, that's what the message board is for. none of us knows as much as all of us. :smallwink:

if wildshaping and getting the special powers of the monsters you turn into is what you want to get serious about, OP, then master of many forms might be a fun option.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19528526/updated_Master_of_Many_Forms_Bible__official_wild_ shape_rules?pg=1

at lvl 7, you automatically get all the ex qualities of your wild shapes, no need to burn a spell. if you wanted to go all the way, wild shape ranger might be a better option (better BA for PA, not losing out with spells as much, more points for con, etc)

regarding VoP, since he'll spend all his time in wildshape anyway, you do have a point, but it really depends on what starting level the game is at. VoP begins to peter off around lvl 10-12 when WBL will let you equal or improve upon the stuff granted by the feat. OTOH, it does allow for exalted wild shape fo free, which is practically worth the price of admission on its own.

it does help cut down on bookkeeping though (which for a momf is pretty bad) so that helps, and the stuf you care about, abilities are boosted by it, so it's a good choice if you were going to be exalted anyway.

[Darth Stabber]

MoMF is mostly redundant with exalted wildshape, especially since most people take MoMF for the EX and SU abilities that celestial wildshape already grants.

If you take the VoP route and you want to talk to your buddies, but don't want to waste good levels on MoMF, consider the saint template. It gives you constant tongues as an SU, 2Con, 2Wis, 4Cha, fast healing3, immunity to cold, acid, electricity, and petrification, fire resist 10, useless SLA's, +2 to the save DC of any ex,su,sla, or spell you use, bonus damage against evil, Dr 15/evil, makes you an outsider(native, good, augmented X), and gives you wis to AC (which your wis score should be pretty impressive).

[Venger]

MoMF is mostly redundant with exalted wildshape, especially since most people take MoMF for the EX and SU abilities that celestial wildshape already grants.

If you take the VoP route and you want to talk to your buddies, but don't want to waste good levels on MoMF, consider the saint template. It gives you constant tongues as an SU, 2Con, 2Wis, 4Cha, fast healing3, immunity to cold, acid, electricity, and petrification, fire resist 10, useless SLA's, +2 to the save DC of any ex,su,sla, or spell you use, bonus damage against evil, Dr 15/evil, makes you an outsider(native, good, augmented X), and gives you wis to AC (which your wis score should be pretty impressive).

I'd disagree. first, momf doesnt give su. second, exalted wildshape only provides 2 shapes worth mentioning vs momf's NI shapes. people take momf to turn into different monsters than animals.

though powerful, saint is... difficult to get DM approval for those exact reasons

[Gavinfoxx]

A level 15 Druid with Exalted Wild Shape, Frozen Wild Shape, and Draconic Wild Shape doesn't need Master of Many Forms...

Take a look at this Druid I came up with... YES it is high level, but look at the forms!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/17bYfVxcXM8uKmxtQAOHgKN7MNchvqcMw31R-k-NPrTw/edit?authkey=CLWf4ugH

You don't NEED MoMF...

[Venger]

A level 15 Druid with Exalted Wild Shape, Frozen Wild Shape, and Draconic Wild Shape doesn't need Master of Many Forms...

Take a look at this Druid I came up with... YES it is high level, but look at the forms!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/17bYfVxcXM8uKmxtQAOHgKN7MNchvqcMw31R-k-NPrTw/edit?authkey=CLWf4ugH

You don't NEED MoMF...

yes, that is definitely true. I thought the comparison being made was a momf v a druid with just exalted wild shape, in which case momf offers more variety. but with dragon, exalted and frozen, you get magical beasts (which the 3.5 momf doesn't give) and dragons, which you don't get until pretty late. assuming you take them at levels 9, 12, and 15, you're getting things about on-par with a momf and you retain spellcasting, so are coming out ahead. especially when weighed against momf's feat tax of alertness and endurance, this does appear to be a better deal.

[Darth Stabber]

I'd disagree. first, momf doesnt give su. second, exalted wildshape only provides 2 shapes worth mentioning vs momf's NI shapes. people take momf to turn into different monsters than animals.

though powerful, saint is... difficult to get DM approval for those exact reasons

Exalted wildshape gives you 2 shapes worth mentioning, and gives you the ability to wildshape into the celestial templated version of everything you could wildshape into (which also good aligns your natural weapons). It also gives you the ex and su abilities of any form you take.

[Venger]

Exalted wildshape gives you 2 shapes worth mentioning, and gives you the ability to wildshape into the celestial templated version of everything you could wildshape into (which also good aligns your natural weapons). It also gives you the ex and su abilities of any form you take.

I think it's only the forms listed. I don't think if you can take draconic and get breath weapon for example via exalted wild shape. or am I reading it wrong? animals dont tend to have many sus

[Darth Stabber]

I think it's only the forms listed. I don't think if you can take draconic and get breath weapon for example via exalted wild shape. or am I reading it wrong? animals dont tend to have many sus

It says it gives you the SU and EX abilities of anyform granted by the feat, all of your forms are granted by the feat if you apply the celestial template. Therefore by RAW you get all of the SU and EXs.

[kardar233]

Doesn't Dragon Wild Shape only give you Small and Medium dragon forms? Is there any way to bypass that limitation?

[Gavinfoxx]

As far as I know, no.

http://web.archive.org/web/20080919131238/http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-404381

Just choose good forms!

[Meness]

Well thanks for the different answers/idea
Concerning exalted feats, I simply do not have access to that (no eberron either) but the spell Enhance Wildshape seems fair enough.

Concerning MoMF, spending 7 lvl just to get Extraordinary powers is too much I think. You're losing on your animal companion and spells also :/
I was also considering warshaper but it's the same problem.

My DM says that if I wildshape whilst bound, the cuffs or whatever wouldn't become a part of me since it's no proper "equipment". I don't have any problem with that but I'm curious: is "equipment" defined anywhere?

But what about the feats of the creature you turn in? Is there any specification about it? (if you get it or not)

[Vizzerdrix]

If you are of good alignment and can meet the lofty conduct requirements of an exalted feat, you should take exalted wild shape (BoED). It gives you several additional forms to assume (unicorn, blink dog, and two others I don't remember), and gives your other forms the celestial template. It also let's you use all of the EX and SU abilities of things you wildshape into. Pick it up at 9, and at 12 grab dragon wildshape (draconimacon I think), which is great on it's own, but when combined with exalted wildshape it is vicious.

Hmm... I wonder how that would work, or even if it would work with Aberrant Wildshape? :smallconfused:

[Deophaun]

Exalted wildshape gives you 2 shapes worth mentioning, and gives you the ability to wildshape into the celestial templated version of everything you could wildshape into (which also good aligns your natural weapons). It also gives you the ex and su abilities of any form you take.
No. It lets you apply the celestial template only to animals you can wildshape into.

As for giving you the ex and su abilities of any form you take, that requires a very generous reading of the feat, ignoring grammatical structures to conclude that the statement "you get the ex and su abilities of the creature" is unrelated to the sentence immediately before, which is also the topic sentence of the paragraph. Arguable? Yes. Exclusive RAW interpretation? No. RAI? Highly unlikely.

[Darth Stabber]

No. It lets you apply the celestial template only to animals you can wildshape into.

As for giving you the ex and su abilities of any form you take, that requires a very generous reading of the feat, ignoring grammatical structures to conclude that the statement "you get the ex and su abilities of the creature" is unrelated to the sentence immediately before, which is also the topic sentence of the paragraph. Arguable? Yes. Exclusive RAW interpretation? No. RAI? Highly unlikely.

I reread the feat, and you are right about only animals getting the template. But it does give you the EX and SU abilities, there's not even another intelligible way to read it, if your getting something else from the text you have a terrible misunderstanding of how parenthetical asides and/or semantics work. I am ignoring no grammatical structure, it could not be plainer. Exclusive RAW? without doubt!


(from the BoED, emphasis mine)
You can use your wildshape to turn into a blinkdog, giant eagle, pegasus, or unicorn. You can also turn into a celestial version of any animal you could normall transform into (at the GM's discersion other magicla beast forms might be available to you. In general only creatures of CR3 or lower are possible.). You gain the extra ordinary and super natural abilities of the creature. This counts as a use of your wildshape and functions the same way

There is no other way to read that, yet you impugn my intelligence, and make your self look bad. Is that RIA? Who knows, none of us wrote the book. However it's very clear that as written it does.

[Deophaun]

There is no other way to read that, yet you impugn my intelligence, and make your self look bad. Is that RIA? Who knows, none of us wrote the book. However it's very clear that as written it does.
What is "the creature?" Does "the creature" refer to what you wild shape into as a matter of course, or does "the creature" refer to the limited forms the feat gives you, mentioned in the topic sentence?

If "You gain the extra ordinary and super natural abilities of the creature" was sitting alone in its own paragraph, you would have a stronger case. But, just as words have meaning in relation to other words within a sentence, so do sentences have meanings in relation to other sentences within a paragraph. So, by RAW, it's not certain at all.

[Darth Stabber]

What is "the creature?" Does "the creature" refer to what you wild shape into as a matter of course, or does "the creature" refer to the limited forms the feat gives you, mentioned in the topic sentence?

If "You gain the extra ordinary and super natural abilities of the creature" was sitting alone in its own paragraph, you would have a stronger case. But, just as words have meaning in relation to other words within a sentence, so do sentences have meanings in relation to other sentences within a paragraph. So, by RAW, it's not certain at all.

Let's remove the parenthetical aside then, make it clearer.

You can use your wildshape to turn into a blink dog, giant eagle, giant owl, pegasus, or unicorn. You can also turn into a celestial version of any animal you could normally transform into. You gain the extraordinary and supernatural abilities of the creature.

The way it's written isn't vague or ambiguous. You can rule that it only provides the ex/su of the 5 forms specifically provided but that would be a lot of interpretation on your part. And if it didn't give you su abilities, then the celestial template would really do anything.

[Deophaun]

Let's remove the parenthetical aside then, make it clearer.
Actually, let's remove everything aside from the sentence itself. We'll make a whole new feat that says, in total:

"You gain the extraordinary and super natural abilities of the creature."

That's the sum total of it. What does it mean? If I put it on a random player's character sheet, he'd scratch his head. Is "the creature" something he gets through alter shape? Is it the creature that he's fighting right now? The last one he killed? What is "the creature?"

In order to get that "the creature" refers to wildshaping, there needs to be some additional context, or else the sentence itself is complete nonsense. So, we pull "wild shape" from the other sentences. In order to know that you must actually be wild shaped in order to gain the abilities, we have to pull that from context is well. Otherwise, we're walking around outside of wildshape with the EX and SU abilities of everything. So, the question I have is, why is it RAW to pull that information from context, but it is not RAW to pull the limited forms from context as well?

I'm not disagreeing that it requires interpretation to get to the 5 form limits. I am saying that it requires the same type of interpretation to get your version.

[Darth Stabber]

Actually, let's remove everything aside from the sentence itself. We'll make a whole new feat that says, in total:

"You gain the extraordinary and super natural abilities of the creature."

That's the sum total of it. What does it mean? If I put it on a random player's character sheet, he'd scratch his head. Is "the creature" something he gets through alter shape? Is it the creature that he's fighting right now? The last one he killed? What is "the creature?"

In order to get that "the creature" refers to wildshaping, there needs to be some additional context, or else the sentence itself is complete nonsense. So, we pull "wild shape" from the other sentences. In order to know that you must actually be wild shaped in order to gain the abilities, we have to pull that from context is well. Otherwise, we're walking around outside of wildshape with the EX and SU abilities of everything. So, the question I have is, why is it RAW to pull that information from context, but it is not RAW to pull the limited forms from context as well?

I'm not disagreeing that it requires interpretation to get to the 5 form limits. I am saying that it requires the same type of interpretation to get your version.

It really doesn't. The context truly is key. If the ex/su sentence was only supposed to affect the five forms it would appear before the remark about celestial creatures. If it was only supposed to affect the magical beasts your GM okayed it would appear inside the taparentheses. It appears at the end, which contextually indicates that it affects all of it.

[Deophaun]

It really doesn't. The context truly is key. If the ex/su sentence was only supposed to affect the five forms it would appear before the remark about celestial creatures. If it was only supposed to affect the magical beasts your GM okayed it would appear inside the taparentheses. It appears at the end, which contextually indicates that it affects all of it.
I'll say that I was wrong about the topic sentence, simply because of how the page breaks in the BoED. I thought that was an entirely new paragraph. It wasn't. So yes, it does give you the EX and SU of the 5 forms and the creature template by RAW (although in my RAW interpretation, it might not have given you the EX and SU abilities of the blink dog, which also makes that form worthless).

It most definitely, however, does not give you the EX and SU abilities of every creature you wildshape into, templated or no, which is what I thought you said in your original posts. I apologize for any confusion.

[phantomreader42]

If you are tied by a rope or something, can you wild shape to a snake for instance and get free?

If you can turn into a snake small enough to slip out of the rope (remember, at first you can only take Small and Medium forms), then that would work easily. I don't think you necessarily gain racial skill bonuses (unless it's due to a movement mode), but reducing your size and increasing your DEX would help with Escape Artist.


can you even use wild shape when tied (I think so since it's supernatural)?

As long as you are alive, conscious, not in an antimagic field, and not out of daily wildshape uses, you can wildshape anytime you can take a standard action. And there are ways to speed it up to a move action, through either a feat or a few levels of the Master of Many Forms prestige class.


Your equipment is supposed to melt with you, is the rope considered as equipment? And then, say the rope is tied to a wall, the wall is your equipment too oO ?

Anything you wear or carry melds into your form, unless prevented from doing so by some means (such as the very useful Wilding Clasp). Whether the rope does depends on your DM, it might be left behind due to being attached to the wall. The wall would not meld into you.


I was also wondering if there was a feat to take to get the special qualities of the form you take, like the one for supernatural powers.

As far as I know, there is no such feat for general use, but there is a spell and a prestige class (already mentioned) that make it possible to gain the extraordinary qualities of a form. And I hear Exalted Wild Shape lets you turn into good magical beasts and gain some of their qualities. There are some other obscure feats that add other forms, and a magic item that allows vermin.

If you want to take on the extraordinary qualities of forms without losing spellcasting progression, you can use the Enhance Wild Shape spell, or get a magic item made with it. Might get expensive though.

[Darth Stabber]

I'll say that I was wrong about the topic sentence, simply because of how the page breaks in the BoED. I thought that was an entirely new paragraph. It wasn't. So yes, it does give you the EX and SU of the 5 forms and the creature template by RAW (although in my RAW interpretation, it might not have given you the EX and SU abilities of the blink dog, which also makes that form worthless).

It most definitely, however, does not give you the EX and SU abilities of every creature you wildshape into, templated or no, which is what I thought you said in your original posts. I apologize for any confusion.

I stand corrected on that point, I missed that it used the word animal with regards to the celestial template, I was going from memory initially and I thought it said creature.

[Venger]

If you can turn into a snake small enough to slip out of the rope (remember, at first you can only take Small and Medium forms), then that would work easily. I don't think you necessarily gain racial skill bonuses (unless it's due to a movement mode), but reducing your size and increasing your DEX would help with Escape Artist.
racial skill bonuses, like racial feats, are considered ex special qualities so are unavailable with normal wild shape, but come online with momf7/enhance wild shape.



If you want to take on the extraordinary qualities of forms without losing spellcasting progression, you can use the Enhance Wild Shape spell, or get a magic item made with it. Might get expensive though.

if you really didn't want to set it aside as an all-day buff at 1 hr/lvl, it is a 4th lvl spell, so a 50 charge wand of it costs 21k, or you could just make it a 2 charges/day item (assuming CL 7, that's 14 hours, plenty of time to adventure) for 8400gp. or, if you're really paranoid or don't sleep, 3/day for 12.6k.



Hmm... I wonder how that would work, or even if it would work with Aberrant Wildshape? :smallconfused:
beware, aberrant wildshape requires aberrant blood first. make sure you can spare the 2 feats and that you're getting enough effective druid HD to make it worthwhile. check out a wild shape amulet from MoF. it raises your effective druid lvl by 4 for duration, wild shapes/day, and what you can morph into. a 40k, it's worth every penny