Diminishing Magic

[Amburst]

While starting a new world, i decided i wanted to lessen the impact of magic and take out magic items almost completely.

Knowing that this would unbalance the game, i thought of a couple ways to try and fix it. Would having magic classes more rare and having every time you cast a spell you take subdual damage equal to its spell level rebalance the game?

[Emperor Tippy]

What level do you want to play at and what kind of campaign do you want to run?

[Amburst]

I want to start the characters around level one.

Not sure what type of campaign i want though. It usually just flows together from my random ideas

[unundindur]

Sounds a bit like my own world. What I did was to play with E6, and just make sure people don't encounter a lot of spellcasters. If the players want to play them that is no problem, they won't be able to lay waste to countries anyway.

Its also important to think of how people react to magic if they are not used to it. Casting a spell could put you in prison, or have you burned. In other places it might give you disciples. If someone suddenly turned X-men in reality and started tossing lazerbeamz all around, what would happen to said person? :smallcool:

[Eldebryn]

For starters, you could give everyone a Vow of Poverty's benefits for free @ level 1, ignoring alignment and behavioral RP for the feat.

[Amburst]

For starters, you could give everyone a Vow of Poverty's benefits for free @ level 1, ignoring alignment and behavioral RP for the feat.

Sorry, I'm not familiar with Vow of Poverty. I've only got a handful of 3rd edition books. Most of my books are with friend so he can finish a campaign he's been working on for a year or so.

[Answerer]

Frankly, 3.x is awful at this. The game is poorly balanced, and removing magic items makes it worse. The game also depends on a wide variety of effects and almost everything past level, well, 3 or so expects that they'll be available. You have to change enormous amounts of the game to get this to work.

My advice? Find a system that can actually support this, rather than trying to force 3.x to be something it's not. There are systems that are designed, from the ground up, for exactly this sort of thing: they'll yield a much better play experience overall.

[Amburst]

Frankly, 3.x is awful at this. The game is poorly balanced, and removing magic items makes it worse. The game also depends on a wide variety of effects and almost everything past level, well, 3 or so expects that they'll be available. You have to change enormous amounts of the game to get this to work.

My advice? Find a system that can actually support this, rather than trying to force 3.x to be something it's not. There are systems that are designed, from the ground up, for exactly this sort of thing: they'll yield a much better play experience overall.

Thanks. I might try this instead. But can you give me an example of what system to use. I have D20 Modern in pdf, but don't like the base classes they give you.

[Answerer]

Unfortunately, I have almost zero interest in such a campaign world; I tend to play mages, so I can't really give specific suggestions.

[Amburst]

Unfortunately, I have almost zero interest in such a campaign world; I tend to play mages, so I can't really give specific suggestions.

I get that. One of my goals is to one day play a Half-Orc sorcerer. Thanks anyway

[Water_Bear]

Yeah, I have to agree that 3.5 is a system with High-powered Magic built into its bones. Personally that is why I love 3.5 in general and Eberron in particular, but that isn't everyone's cup of tea.

A good 3rd party system which preserves most of D&D's core mechanics is the Iron Heroes system. It's free (I think, because I definitely didn't pay for the PDF...), it gives Melee nice things, and it is VERY low-magic. The default setting is your traditional "Thud and Blunder" Barbarian Hero nonsense, but the mechanics are robust and can support very complex living settings.

My only suggestion; do not use the Arcanist class they provide. It is awful. It takes upwards of five steps, and a lot of (admittedly simple) math, just to cast a basic spell. Which still has a decent chance of backfiring and killing you. I usually just bring the 3.5 Warlock in if I need a spellcaster.

[Emperor Tippy]

Start at level 1 and expect to end by level 5-6 and emphasize just how bad ass that really makes the players (Einstein is a level 5 Expert for comparison).

Be careful not to throw creatures at the players that expect them to have magic to deal with them and you should be fine.

You might want to look at removing the casters entirely and replacing them with the Psion, and have every power point they spend costs them a point of non-lethal damage.

The real problem would be lack of healing. One thing I've used before is adding a naturally occurring plant that works like a potion of cure X wounds and can be found with a survival check in the wilderness. You can actually basically add on most of the clerics low level buffs and healing spells and can easily tailor availability in real time while also making magic feel a lot less real.

Also, remember that a young adult black dragon is a solo threat to an entire army. Really play that kind of thing up to the players. The few magical creatures that you place in the world are real threats to entire towns, cities, or nations.

That Allip that the party caster managed to kill was a horror from beyond the grave that could put an entire town into a coma in a night or break an entire army. That Basilisk that took up residence outside of town and that the players were hired to deal with is the stuff of legends, the PC's defeating it get's the bards of the land singing their feats from end to end and they become the heroes of the generation.

The kings elite Griffon Guard are an enormous expense, just the cost to rear and train a single griffon is enough to feed everyone in a Thorp well for a year.

When you subtly emphasis just how rare and capable the PC's are and how amazing even relatively basic low level adventures are, you can get away with a lot lower power game than you could otherwise.

And if you limit yourself to the first 5 or so levels you won't have any real balance problems.

[Amburst]

Thank you Water Bear, i will take a look at Iron Heroes

[unundindur]

Start at level 1 and expect to end by level 5-6 and emphasize just how bad ass that really makes the players (Einstein is a level 5 Expert for comparison).

Be careful not to throw creatures at the players that expect them to have magic to deal with them and you should be fine.

You might want to look at removing the casters entirely and replacing them with the Psion, and have every power point they spend costs them a point of non-lethal damage.

The real problem would be lack of healing. One thing I've used before is adding a naturally occurring plant that works like a potion of cure X wounds and can be found with a survival check in the wilderness. You can actually basically add on most of the clerics low level buffs and healing spells and can easily tailor availability in real time while also making magic feel a lot less real.

Also, remember that a young adult black dragon is a solo threat to an entire army. Really play that kind of thing up to the players. The few magical creatures that you place in the world are real threats to entire towns, cities, or nations.

That Allip that the party caster managed to kill was a horror from beyond the grave that could put an entire town into a coma in a night or break an entire army. That Basilisk that took up residence outside of town and that the players were hired to deal with is the stuff of legends, the PC's defeating it get's the bards of the land singing their feats from end to end and they become the heroes of the generation.

The kings elite Griffon Guard are an enormous expense, just the cost to rear and train a single griffon is enough to feed everyone in a Thorp well for a year.

When you subtly emphasis just how rare and capable the PC's are and how amazing even relatively basic low level adventures are, you can get away with a lot lower power game than you could otherwise.

And if you limit yourself to the first 5 or so levels you won't have any real balance problems.

This :smallsmile:

[Amburst]

And if you limit yourself to the first 5 or so levels you won't have any real balance problems.

Limiting to level 5 seems a little... off to me. I'd want to try and take the characters to between levels 10 and 20

[unundindur]

Limiting to level 5 seems a little... off to me. I'd want to try and take the characters to between levels 10 and 20

http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/206323-e6-game-inside-d-d.html

There you can find the rules commonly knows as E6, which allows you to get meaningful progression in a context of 6 levels. I cannot recommend it enough!

[Emperor Tippy]

Limiting to level 5 seems a little... off to me. I'd want to try and take the characters to between levels 10 and 20

Don't, really don't. Over about level 5 pretty much every monster is balanced on the assumption that you have several thousand GP worth of magic items on hand and 1-2 full casters in your party. Unless you have the system experience to really know what the PC's can and can't deal with, trying to run a low magic game over level 5 is a recipe for disaster.

[Amburst]

http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/206323-e6-game-inside-d-d.html

There you can find the rules commonly knows as E6, which allows you to get meaningful progression in a context of 6 levels. I cannot recommend it enough!

Thanks. I like the E6 system so far

[Amburst]

Thank you all. I believe i will be using the E6 system. Your help is much appreciated

[Unusual Muse]

Another idea I've been thinking about trying out is making magic Moorcockian instead of Vancian by using the Incantation rules variant in Unearthed Arcana. Under this system, anyone can do magic, but it's much more like a unique ritual and is much more risky. If you wanted to have characters who were more like wizards/shaman/sages you could give those classes bonuses to the checks to complete the rituals, or something along those lines. You can adjust this system's difficulty/power by tweaking the DCs and modifiers.

Or, you could use E6 and have spellcasting proceed as normal, and then have all spells above 3rd level use the Incantation variant rules. Then, the really powerful stuff would be much more rare and dangerous (as it should be). This kind of arrangement really lends itself well to that more rich storytelling setting where monsters and magic are unique and rare, and brings the sense of danger back to the game.

[Laniius]

Taking out magic items hurts non-casters FAR more than it hurts casters. The only way non-casters can compete with casters is through magic items at higher levels. Take those away, and you are in for a world of hurt.

[Alleran]

Also, remember that a young adult black dragon is a solo threat to an entire army.
How so, exactly? I'd imagine that after a while, the sheer number of hits (and statistically probable nat 20s) would begin to pile up.

[Thomasinx]

How so, exactly? I'd imagine that after a while, the sheer number of hits (and statistically probable nat 20s) would begin to pile up.

Young adult black dragon has ~152 hp, +19 to attacks, and a 10d4 breath weapon, a frightful presence DC 19, and DR 5/magic. Plus it has some useful spell-like abilities, and can cast as a 1st level sorcerer.

So. How do you have an army full of low level warriors fight a dragon that casts obscuring mist and darkness spells, then flies by every 1d4 rounds breathing acid on them, terrifying them, and ignoring weapons due to DR? Plus, when it starts getting low on health, it can just fly away until it's healthy again. The army can't chase it down, and the army also can't raise dead on the people who were killed in the previous engagement.

Long term: the army loses.

[Frozen_Feet]

That DR/magic in particular means that the amount of hits needed to take it down is measured in dozens, potentially hundreds.

When you need a small army of archers to take such dragon down, how is it not true that it's a challenge for armies?

[Fluffy_1.0]

Low character point BESM or GURPS can do what you want in pretty much any setting you care to imagine. Takes more work than 3.x to generate characters though.

Alternatively run e6 and have no/few casters.

[Lapak]

That DR/magic in particular means that the amount of hits needed to take it down is measured in dozens, potentially hundreds.

When you need a small army of archers to take such dragon down, how is it not true that it's a challenge for armies?The vast majority of archers within 150 feet of it will be panicked, too, so at least one range increment applies even during strafing runs. 1 in 20 will hit, but of those 5/8 will be negated by damage reduction and the rest will do 1-3 damage (avg. 2), so your expected damage per-arrow will be 2*.375*.05 = 0.0375 hit points unless I've forgotten something.

Even the 1-in-400 crit arrow is only going to do around 8 damage after damage reduction.

And this assumes that even the non-magically panicked archers have the morale to stand their ground and fire as an acid-breathing flying invincible monster attacks them.

You need a LOT of low-level nonmagical archers to take down a dragon. And that's a Young Adult Black; an Ancient Red is a kingdom-destroyer.

[Gavinfoxx]

In addition to Iron Heroes, I would look at this, if you want to take ideas from it to make a more 'martial' game. It's great to take ideas from, even if you don't want to take the combat system, which is a main way to make D&D more 'realistic':

http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=65250

An E6 Codex Martialis game where you are limited to classes like Rogue/Expert/Fighter/Aristocrat, has a very gritty and realistic feel.

[hamlet]

Thanks. I might try this instead. But can you give me an example of what system to use. I have D20 Modern in pdf, but don't like the base classes they give you.

Believe it or not, AD&D actually can work for this if you make it a point to be sparing with the magic items and spells that go out and limit the books you draw from. Basic core and eliminating auto new spell upon level for mages really does the trick, I find.

[Strormer]

My favorite was of not unbalancing dnd while losing casters is the dark sun answer. Psionics has a very different feel and accessability value than casting and can still be legendarilly rare while allowing the pc's to access it. Mind you, that's also the setting where metal armor is a rare find and you risk dehydration more than eviseration.

[Oscredwin]

The vast majority of archers within 150 feet of it will be panicked, too, so at least one range increment applies even during strafing runs. 1 in 20 will hit, but of those 5/8 will be negated by damage reduction and the rest will do 1-3 damage (avg. 2), so your expected damage per-arrow will be 2*.375*.05 = 0.0375 hit points unless I've forgotten something.

Even the 1-in-400 crit arrow is only going to do around 8 damage after damage reduction.

And this assumes that even the non-magically panicked archers have the morale to stand their ground and fire as an acid-breathing flying invincible monster attacks them.

You need a LOT of low-level nonmagical archers to take down a dragon. And that's a Young Adult Black; an Ancient Red is a kingdom-destroyer.
My math says you need to fire 2,690 arrows at the dragon to take it down (assuming non magical long bow shots). An army of 20k equipped with bows and readied actions should be able to take it down while taking heavy losses.

[Jeraa]

My math says you need to fire 2,690 arrows at the dragon to take it down (assuming non magical long bow shots). An army of 20k equipped with bows and readied actions should be able to take it down while taking heavy losses.

And young adult black dragons are only CR 9. Pelor forbid a bigger, more powerful dragon shows up.

[Frozen_Feet]

Once you get to even remotely optimized army, such an army of Level 1 Warriors with optimally arranged non-elite array, Missile Volley feats and Ballistas, the amount of troops required reduces drastically. But even then you need at least 20, preferably three to five times more, war machines shooting at the damn thing at once.

[Roguenewb]

I, in my strange love/hate relationship with magic in D&D, have done this thing you ask about. I removed all magic items not created by players, and I made it so that for the tier 1s and 2s to cast a spell they had to a make a DC 15+spell level+spell level+caster level Spellcraft check (and yes spell level is in there twice), and then I gave a bunch of little bonuses to spellcraft, like Spell Focus gave +2 spellcraft to cast the spells of your school and such,

I digress however, the primary impact of removing magic items is that you need to drop monster ACs and saves. Against NPCs you may find the opposite problems, their weak save doesn't stay close enough. Vs monsters save-or-spells become useless, and against NPCs, ooooh boy, it can become a game of "guess the weak save and chuck a save-or-die at it". To even it out, I ended up having monsters take a -1 hit to AC for each 3 CRs, and a -1 to saves for each 4. NPCs got a +1 resistance bonus for each 4 levels.

[Deophaun]

Edited because my original math was terrible.

Actually, if you use the rules for a concentrated volley fire in Heroes of Battle, assuming commanders with a +5 attack bonus (Level 1 with a +4 Int bonus, or level 2 with a +3; those would-be wizards had to go somewhere), you get something like 470 arrows to kill a young adult black dragon. This is owing to the fact that young adult black dragons are large, so even if the volley misses the target square, it still has a chance to hit another square the dragon occupies.

Ironically, this means that a full adult black dragon is less of a threat, as its huge size ensures that all volleys hit. I get around 260 arrows to knock an adult black dragon out of the sky.

[Particle_Man]

Thanks. I might try this instead. But can you give me an example of what system to use. I have D20 Modern in pdf, but don't like the base classes they give you.

I support Iron Heroes for a d20 game that does this.