Tome of Battle: Magical, Mundane, or Just Bad Fluff?

[Empedocles]

As the title says. This is largely a thread to carry on an argument that was happening on a smaller discussion thread of mine, but anyone is welcome to add their thoughts since ToB has become such an important part of combat in 3.5 for non-casters.

So, 1 more time: Do you think the tome of battle abilities are mostly mundane? Easily reflavored as so? Definitely magical or ki focused? Or is the fluff just all around bad?

[Lateral]

Most of it's really mundane stuff. Iron Heart, Tiger Claw, Setting Sun, Diamond Mind, Stone Dragon, and White Raven are all pretty entirely mundane things. Extraordinary, sure, but mundane nonetheless. Only Shadow Hand and parts of Desert Wind and Devoted Spirit are magical in nature.

[The-Mage-King]

I'm on the "Mostly Mundane, some magical (mostly Desert Wind), and bad fluff" side. It takes little effort to make a character with no magical or arguably magical (Dev. Spirit's healing) maneuvers, and it all works in AMF's other than those few that are supernatural.


Also, calling it Blade Magic is stupid. It's (at least the majority) not magic, doesn't have the traits of magic. So don't call it magic.

[Empedocles]

IMO the term blade magic refers to the sort of crazy, seemingly supernatural effects (here I'm talking largely about stuff like the attacks Diamond Mind provides and Stone Dragon crushes, not desert wind flame blasts). It makes me think of the metal furycrafters from Jim Butcher's Codex Alera, for those of you who understand the reference. "Blade magic" isn't a term that strictly means your, say, imbuing spells into your sword as a dusk blade would.

[Swok]

At most the bulk of maneuvers are magical only in the sense that an unskilled peasant who observe a martial adept could possibly claim that someone so skilled must be using magic...but the same logic can also apply to a master thrower palm shotting a weak point to make twenty something thrown dagger attacks in six seconds that ignore any armor and the thickest scales. They're labeled extraordinary for a reason.

[Darth Stabber]

The fluff is fine, if a bit narrow. The abilities in the book are primarily ex and thus mundane, though some are su, and a couple more probablhy should be (mostly from devoted spirit). The complaints of weaboo are bit unfounded, since most weapon studies have names for certain types of striking, whether oriental or occidental.

[The-Mage-King]

No, it doesn't, but it implies that. As for the maneuvers in question...


The D.Mind stuff is all skill and focus. Think about how quickly you could move if you just tuned out non-essential "noise". Stone Dragon is more skill- you know where to hit to deal more damage, and can be seen as akin to those guys who break boards with their bare hands.

[Gharkash]

At most the bulk of maneuvers are magical only in the sense that an unskilled peasant who observe a martial adept could possibly claim that someone so skilled must be using magic...but the same logic can also apply to a master thrower palm shotting a weak point to make twenty something thrown dagger attacks in six seconds that ignore any armor and the thickest scales. They're labeled extraordinary for a reason.

Dat.

Also, some aspects are fluffed badly, some of it are ki "magic" but overall mundane extraordinary abilities. In the real world there are people that kill bulls with a punch, so being able to do that with a sword does not strike me as magical.

Edit: add to the one-punch-bull-kill people that cut airgun bullets with swords, bruce lee being able to hit some one unconcious with a one (or was it five) inch punch and people that freerun.

[Roguenewb]

95% of diamond mind isn't even magical. Most of it is physical training and focus, Diamond Mind is the jedi discipline, mostly just skill, with a twinge of magic. Desert Wind and Shadow Hand are the really magical two. The last one with some magic is Devoted Spirit, but, if you use the Vitality Point system, as I tend to, then the healing is just getting a second wind and revitalizating the muscles and mind.

[The-Mage-King]

What maneuvers make up the allegedly magical 5% of Diamond Mind? Please, share.

[Hiro Protagonest]

95% of diamond mind isn't even magical. Most of it is physical training and focus, Diamond Mind is the jedi discipline, mostly just skill, with a twinge of magic. Desert Wind and Shadow Hand are the really magical two. The last one with some magic is Devoted Spirit, but, if you use the Vitality Point system, as I tend to, then the healing is just getting a second wind and revitalizating the muscles and mind.

95%? What in Diamond Mind is magic? Hearing the Air? Because you know, that's similar to how most animals and some specially trained people can sense your presence.

[Amphetryon]

As the title says. This is largely a thread to carry on an argument that was happening on a smaller discussion thread of mine, but anyone is welcome to add their thoughts since ToB has become such an important part of combat in 3.5 for non-casters.

So, 1 more time: Do you think the tome of battle abilities are mostly mundane? Easily reflavored as so? Definitely magical or ki focused? Or is the fluff just all around bad?

I think all of the (Ex) abilities are mundane, because that's consistent with how those abilities are defined elsewhere in 3.5, regardless of whether they mirror what you may think of as "real-world mundane human ability." As such, reflavoring them is unnecessary but wouldn't hurt anything, since flavor is mutable. I don't find the fluff to be bad; I do understand that the default fluff is not to everyone's tastes, which is why it's lucky that - again - flavor is mutable.

[Boci]

IMO the term blade magic refers to the sort of crazy, seemingly supernatural effects

When you say crazy, what are you comparing them to? A fighter? Real world martial artists? The heroes of western mythologies?

[shadow_archmagi]

Desert Wind: Loads of magic. Summon elementals, set your sword on fire, etc.

Devoted Spirit: Mostly just involves hitting the enemy to heal your allies, which is going to be magical or nonmagical depending on whether your group views HP as purely physical or incorporating willpower and determination and stuff.

Diamond Mind: Nonmagical. It's all about having incredible focus and speed, but that's just extraordinary level stuff- On par with how anyone who hits a decent level can leap twice his height.

Iron Guard: Nonmagical. This is just good swordsmanship. Block your opponent, then stab them. Or stab two guys. Stuff like that.

Setting Sun: Nonmagical. This is just close combat skills- Tripping and throwing and stuff.

Shadow Hand: So, so very Magical. The first level strike is "Create an illusoinary you made out of shadow energy and then you both stab the enemy"

Stone Dragon: Nonmagical. This is just hitting things really hard and hating architecture.

Tiger Claw: Nonmagical. This is just learning to rip and tear their huge guts.

White Raven: Nonmagical. This is just being a tactical leader.


Ultimately, some of this stuff borders on the lines of "No real person could do that" but none of the disciplines I think of as nonmagical pass the lines of "If I were watching a movie about a nonmagical hero, and he pulled off this stunt, I wouldn't shout 'HE WAS A WIZARD ALL ALONG!' and declare the movie ruined"

Think of the kind of acrobatic combat maneuvers that Batman pulls off, for example.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

I just skimmed through a big chunk of ToB's fluff and I'm still of the opinion that "Blade Magic" is a a term used my the (in game) ignorant masses. There are many more references to Chi, Focus and Skill and the word(s) magic/blade magic are never given definitions suggesting that these terms not only have no crunch, but are also not used by Initiators. It's just very unfortunate name for a chapter.

Hit points as an abstract concept is a very old idea. I think the first instance of it might be in the AD&D DMG. I'd hoped there was a reference in the 3.5 DMG, but couldn't find one (I'm certain someone can provide a actual 3rd ed reference). It really is largely a fluff distinction allowing for more varied descriptions of attacks the only effect it has on fluff is what a reasonable person will accept healing hp. I have to imagine almost everyone uses hp abstraction to a point otherwise the critical hit for 15 damage that pierces a commoner through the heart killing them instantly would have to pierce a 10th level fighter through the heart without phasing him. Even if you decide that all HP damage from slashing/piercing weapons must draw blood those wounds are mostly superficial but they add up slowing the combatant down alloying a more telling blow later.

[Answerer]

Most maneuvers are extraordinary, and therefore non-magical (as written, and you'll never convince me they were intended to be otherwise), and the system works best this way. Some maneuvers (explicitly tagged as such) are supernatural, and therefore magical, and make sense as "blade magic," a term which the book uses but does not strictly have to apply to all maneuvers. Some maneuvers involve "blade magic" – i.e. those ones that are Supernatural, and not the others.

Tome of Battle's fluff is mostly fine as long as everyone is on the same page: they were going for a certain theme with the fluff; that theme isn't appropriate for every game; most games do not include the various aspects of Tome of Battle's fluff-backstory-setting, and thus the classes and maneuvers and history should be adapted for your campaign. This is true of every single thing WotC ever printed. Most campaigns will have never had Reshar or his Temple, the fallout out between Tiger Claw and Shadow Hand on the one side and the rest of the disciplines on the other probably never happened, etc. etc.

Some games can be played in Tome of Battle's default setting. If they're not, you're not going to use some parts of its fluff. What you do or don't use is up to you and/or your group.

To expect that everyone has to use every part of the book exactly as written, whether it be crunch or fluff, is not reasonable.

[TheGeckoKing]

I'm of the odd opinion that ToB is all weird weeaboo fightin' magic, but then that's because I like that it's weeboo fightin' magic.
It lets me build characters who can headbutt steel doors apart, scream Five Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike! like it's on a two-for-one sale and fire flame from my fingers while going "Nah nah nah Sorcerer, I can do this all day!". Nothing else in D&D can really pull it off like ToB does.
Wouldn't use it for more mundane characters though. My view of it being wacky kung-fu magic means when I try to "dull it down", it doesn't work.
The way I can accept most of ToB being mundane is by making the assumption that D&D Human =/= Earth Human, which also allows me to believe that human characters can survive falls from orbit and means I can accept that HP = Max Physical Punishment before death, because they're not us. They're freaky godhumans that really are that tough.
Still can't get round those healing manoeuvres in Devoted Spirit being mundane. When you talk about wounds being healed by faith and in one, even reference a spell for it's effects, it's freakin' magic. Refluff as desired. Have a nice day.

[Flickerdart]

ToB is magic the same way that the rogue's Evasion is magic. Yes, the rogue can perform an incredible feat of acrobatics to stay unharmed in the midst of an explosion - but that's all it is, a feat of acrobatics. Likewise, stuff like Elder Mountain Hammer is just the warblade hitting something in a fancy way. It's not magic any more than a fighter's full attack is magic.

[tyckspoon]

Still can't get round those healing manoeuvres in Devoted Spirit being mundane. When you talk about wounds being healed by faith and in one, even reference a spell for it's effects, it's freakin' magic. Refluff as desired. Have a nice day.

Yeah, those and the Shadow Hand teleports really should be (Su)pernaturals. Crusader is the Paladin-like; Devoted Spirit's strikes are conceptually coming from the same kind of place as a Paladin's Smites and Lay On Hands. It's ok for some of that stuff to be magic, the same way Shadow Hand and Desert Wind cover the 'mystic warrior' aspect of Swordsage that lets the base Monk Dimension Door and have magic hands.

[Big Fau]

Only Shadow Hand and parts of Desert Wind and Devoted Spirit are magical in nature.

You've got that wrong. Parts of Shadow Hand and most of Desert Wind, but Devoted Spirit has precisely zero Su maneuvers. One maneuver is contested as Su, but RAW the entire discipline is Ex.

[Lateral]

You've got that wrong. Parts of Shadow Hand and most of Desert Wind, but Devoted Spirit has precisely zero Su maneuvers. One maneuver is contested as Su, but RAW the entire discipline is Ex.

I meant more by what they do. Offhand, I can't think of a single Shadow Hand maneuver that doesn't do something magical, and Devoted Spirit, while for the most part fairly mundane, has those healing things which may or may do something magical, depending on how you think of HP. Sorry if I wasn't clear, but I meant in terms of fluff and usage, not in terms of Supernatural vs. Extraordinary abilities.

[Jodah]

Before I get into this: Calling it magic is not to demean it. Saying it is like wire fighting is not either. I love this book, it is probably the book I visit most when designing a character aside from the PHB. There is so much good stuff here. So to any who thought I was degrading it, I am sorry.

Also, this is based entirely on the source book. I am not taking commonly accepted fixes or re-fluffs. In order to talk about the book's merit, we have to look at what the book says. I will also come out and say, I don't think there is such a thing as bad fluff (though sometimes the fluff doesn't match the crunch, and the mismatch is bad). There is fluff I don't like (such as vestiges) and fluff that doesn't fit home made worlds (such as the deities), but this doesn't make it bad. This whole paragraph is said to discourage responses to this post that claim that my observations are based on bad fluff that should be ignored.

My original post that seemed to derail the thread (sorry about that by the way):


ToB is supposed to be Orient meets Medieval England, so it should feel a little like a wire movie. It can ruin classic fighter flavor a little bit, but that is why I strictly refer to it as "blade magic," because it most certainly is magic.

To respond to some of the things that were said about it:

First sentence: completely from the intro to the book. If you want to claim that it is mundane based on how you changed it, go ahead - but only your change is that way, not the source material.

Classic fighter flavor: fighter is purely mundane, he gets fighter feats which show his inherent skill. True, he can be a knight, a thug, or body guard, but he has a basic flavor.

the claim it is magic: I don't know about you but do these seem like spells?
Desert Wind - conceded before I posted
Devoted Spirit

Aura stances - are aligned like spells are, in ways that directly tied to your character's being, the same as clerical domains
Castigating Strike - functions off of alignment (will cease this line, there are too many alignment based thing in this discipline), uses divine energy
Defensive Rebuke - enemies become aware of things w/o reason
Foehammer - devotion grants boundless energy to break supernatural defenses
Immortal fortitude - days dipping in and out of negative hit points (even if it is past death (-10)), raising HP (so as to differentiate from diehard and the like), all without a single heal spell cast.

Diamond Mind

Moment Alacrity - improves initiative count, better than your natural state (your initiative mod) would ever allow (+20)
Time stands still - Grants two turns in one (i.e. mini time stop)

admittedly less so than many disciplines, still some minor offenders
Iron Heart

Exorcism of Steel - I attack the weapon, the owner makes a will save
Iron Heart Endurance - healing uses positive energy (and this isn't like surge of energy (like a barbarian raging) because they aren't taken away, nor are they even temporary HP)
Iron Heart Surge - can cure blindness or end a spell
Strike of perfect Clarity - Deal +100 points of damage...more than many non-op builds can even do on a crit.

Setting Sun
I have nothing here. This discipline doesn't have anything that might be classified as magic.
Shadow Hand - conceded before I posted
Stone Dragon

Depends on "the power of earth and stone" - seems like that is enough right there
Crushing Vise - furthers the above stated problem, a creature not on the ground is immune
Earthstrike Quake - channels ki, a mystical energy, to cause a minor earthquake
Strength of Stone - see the picture in the book

Tiger Claw

Hunter's Sense - could just be extremely good sense of smell, but it seems odd to gain something your race would otherwise be incapable of doing
This is another that seems pretty mundane, with only one that is even questionable
White Raver
Nothing magical here

Other miscellaneous points:

the chapter preceding the one entitled "Maneuvers and Stances" is entitled "Blade Magic," so it isn't just a slang thing, but how the book describes it
if I count correctly there are 6 of 8 prestige classes that grant supernatural and/or spell-like abilities, and even without the casting ones there are 4
In the Jade Phoenix Mage there is an established way that a stance increases arcane might


I see this as not being overtly magic, but still magic. Ki is a supernatural force that creates mystic fighters. I wouldn't shut this stuff down in AMF (unless it is called out as supernatural), but I think there is a supernatural or at the least super-human nature to a lot of it.

You can take or leave this break down, but given what I have here, every base class has access to maneuvers that break down or at least challenge the concept of being mundane.

[/rant]

[Gharkash]

Under the chapter "Blade Magic" lies this:

The uncanny power of the Sublime Way springs from a blend of physical skill, mental self-discipline and adherance to distinct martial philosophies. Many of the maneuvers of the various martial disciplines aren't magic at all- they are simply demonstrations of near super-human skill and training. Althought many of the maneuvers and methods taught by the Sublime Way are mundane in execution and effect, their results sometimes rival spells. The warriors that study the nine schools are capable of battlefield feats beyond those that a traditionally schooled and trained fighter can hope to accomplish. The typical fighter might display great skill in a weapon's basic cuts, thrusts and parries, but a student of the Sublime Way believes that mastering a weapon requires self-discipline ans spiritual austerity in addition to learning the correct physical postures and movements.

In other words, under "Blade Magic" it says it is not magic, while there are magical effects in maneuvers. The book is probably written badly (fluffwise), but it has some great mechanics to appeal to both gish and non-gish lovers. What i cannot agree with is the "it is all magical gtfo" thesis, dodging a blow is not magical, being fast is not magical, they are just exagerated to fit a fantasy world.

[Amphetryon]

every base class has access to maneuvers that break down or at least challenge the concept of being mundane.
Amusingly, this is appropriate, because it really does apply to EVERY base class, not just the ones in ToB, depending on how you choose to describe the action and effect of some of their abilities. It even applies to Fighters, depending on which Feats (which, lets face it, are what Fighters get for abilities).

[Mr.Moron]

Neither. They are non-magical, because they're powered by nothing but human (or Dwarf, etc..) skill, conditioning and force of will. They're not mundane because the abilities are orders beyond what normal/"real" people such as level 1 commoners and us can achieve. They're above and beyond normal physics but that doesn't make them magic.

[Malachei]

As the title says. This is largely a thread to carry on an argument that was happening on a smaller discussion thread of mine, but anyone is welcome to add their thoughts since ToB has become such an important part of combat in 3.5 for non-casters.

So, 1 more time: Do you think the tome of battle abilities are mostly mundane? Easily reflavored as so? Definitely magical or ki focused? Or is the fluff just all around bad?

Maneuvers and stances not mundane are described as Supernatural (Su).

This is a balance aspect, as well, because (Su) maneuvers and stances often give abilities which are similar to spells.

[The-Mage-King]

Before I get into this: Calling it magic is not to demean it. Saying it is like wire fighting is not either. I love this book, it is probably the book I visit most when designing a character aside from the PHB. There is so much good stuff here. So to any who thought I was degrading it, I am sorry.

Apology accepted. :smalltongue:


Also, this is based entirely on the source book. I am not taking commonly accepted fixes or re-fluffs. In order to talk about the book's merit, we have to look at what the book says. I will also come out and say, I don't think there is such a thing as bad fluff (though sometimes the fluff doesn't match the crunch, and the mismatch is bad). There is fluff I don't like (such as vestiges) and fluff that doesn't fit home made worlds (such as the deities), but this doesn't make it bad. This whole paragraph is said to discourage responses to this post that claim that my observations are based on bad fluff that should be ignored.
Sorry, but there IS a such a thing as bad fluff. And ToB has some.


First sentence: completely from the intro to the book. If you want to claim that it is mundane based on how you changed it, go ahead - but only your change is that way, not the source material.

Not arguing that.


Classic fighter flavor: fighter is purely mundane, he gets fighter feats which show his inherent skill. True, he can be a knight, a thug, or body guard, but he has a basic flavor.

Haha, d&d character purely mundane.


the claim it is magic: I don't know about you but do these seem like spells?

I'll go through each discipline you bring up.


Desert Wind - conceded before I posted
Conceded.


Devoted Spirit

Aura stances - are aligned like spells are, in ways that directly tied to your character's being, the same as clerical domains
Castigating Strike - functions off of alignment (will cease this line, there are too many alignment based thing in this discipline), uses divine energy
Defensive Rebuke - enemies become aware of things w/o reason
Foehammer - devotion grants boundless energy to break supernatural defenses
Immortal fortitude - days dipping in and out of negative hit points (even if it is past death (-10)), raising HP (so as to differentiate from diehard and the like), all without a single heal spell cast.


Some of these,, I could see as quasimagical. Maybe. Defensive Rebuke, though... No. Not at all magical. Your stance changes enough that you broadcast your intentions. Immortal Fortitude is Heroic Willpower and forcing your body to keep at it despite wounds, fatigue, and so on. I could go on, but it'd be a waste of time.



Diamond Mind

Moment Alacrity - improves initiative count, better than your natural state (your initiative mod) would ever allow (+20)
Time stands still - Grants two turns in one (i.e. mini time stop)

admittedly less so than many disciplines, still some minor offenders

So White Raven Tactics isn't magical, but Moment of Alacrity is? How odd. I see it as focusing tightly, and suddenly moving before your opponent was expecting you to.

As for Time Stand Still... So, full attacks are mini-time stops? How interesting. I guess the TWF fighter is a wizard, too. This is just skill and speed letting someone make more attacks in a short period of time.

[
B]Iron Heart[/B]

Exorcism of Steel - I attack the weapon, the owner makes a will save
Iron Heart Endurance - healing uses positive energy (and this isn't like surge of energy (like a barbarian raging) because they aren't taken away, nor are they even temporary HP)
Iron Heart Surge - can cure blindness or end a spell
Strike of perfect Clarity - Deal +100 points of damage...more than many non-op builds can even do on a crit.


And here you're just being silly. Exorcism is the owner making the save to get his muscles back under control, or mostly under control. Endurance... HP isn't just wounds, it's skill, fatigue, and so on- "The ability to turn a serious blow into a less serious one". You can heal without positive energy. Hell, "You push aside the pain of your injuries to fight on past mortal limits." is in the flavor text. It's using sheer willpower to fight on.

Surge- Heroic Willpower again. Is the blindness measured in rounds? No? Then it won't be cured. This is fighting off hostile effects by being bloody single minded.

As for strike, so you decide to insult anyone who plays effective fighters, just because melee can't have nice things? Calling any non-caster build that can deal 100 damage in an attack OP? Please. Power Attack (which is a single feat)with a 2 handed weapon easily get it up to 140 or so, in a full attack, by level 17. This is a trade of attack potential for damage. At any rate, it's skill ampliphying your attack, cutting through your opponent's attempt to divert the blow. Not magical in the slightest.



Setting Sun
I have nothing here. This discipline doesn't have anything that might be classified as magic.

Good to see that you can at least see some things clearly.


Shadow Hand - conceded before I posted

Indeed.


Stone Dragon

Depends on "the power of earth and stone" - seems like that is enough right there
Crushing Vise - furthers the above stated problem, a creature not on the ground is immune
Earthstrike Quake - channels ki, a mystical energy, to cause a minor earthquake
Strength of Stone - see the picture in the book


For the first point: perhaps a school of fighting that depends on being on solid, steady fighting won't work well in the air. Give that any thought?

Vise: It's destabilizing your opponents footing. OF COURSE it doesn't work on flying foes!

Earthstrike: Okay, granted, it uses ki. Which is kinda reasonable for a 15th level character to do.

Strength: NOPE. Picture doesn't count. Back it up with the mechanics or flavor in the text


Tiger Claw

Hunter's Sense - could just be extremely good sense of smell, but it seems odd to gain something your race would otherwise be incapable of doing
This is another that seems pretty mundane, with only one that is even questionable

That's not even questionable. It's focusing on your sense of smell to detect things you couldn't normally.



White Raver
Nothing magical here

Not even Tactics? How odd.



Other miscellaneous points:

the chapter preceding the one entitled "Maneuvers and Stances" is entitled "Blade Magic," so it isn't just a slang thing, but how the book describes it
if I count correctly there are 6 of 8 prestige classes that grant supernatural and/or spell-like abilities, and even without the casting ones there are 4
In the Jade Phoenix Mage there is an established way that a stance increases arcane might


Which is why I say the book has bad fluff. Only about 5% of the maneuvers are supernatural or magical in any way, dammit.

So? PrCs =/= maneuvers, which are being argued about here.

Jade Pheonix Mage is a spellcaster who uses maneuvers. Of course they developed magical stances that increase their arcane might.


I see this as not being overtly magic, but still magic. Ki is a supernatural force that creates mystic fighters. I wouldn't shut this stuff down in AMF (unless it is called out as supernatural), but I think there is a supernatural or at the least super-human nature to a lot of it.

Nothing supernatural about it.


Superhuman, though, I won't argue. Everything after 6th level is, after all, even the non-casters.


You can take or leave this break down, but given what I have here, every base class has access to maneuvers that break down or at least challenge the concept of being mundane.

[/rant]

Usually after 6th level. And you are right. Every base class does.


So the rogue is quasimagical. As is the Swashbuckler. And the Fighter. Because they can get quasimagical abilities.

[Urpriest]

The fluff is atrociously put together. Very few other things in D&D come with the implication that a single organization is the ultimate source of what is essentially a generic set of abilities, enforced by the existence of Martial Lore which means that everyone who has ToBlike abilities in the setting must do them in a reproducible way. About the only other example I can think of off the top of my head is Druidic, known by all Druids whether you're from a lizardfolk tribe or an elven glade. Everything else in the game, even the deities themselves, vary region to region. It was an extremely poorly calculated move on WotC's part to make the book's fluff so specific.

[shadow_archmagi]

I think the big problem is that a lot of people have difficulty drawing the line between "Supernatural" and "Superhuman"

The idea is that, with practice, you can do crazy things that nobody in the real world could do because they're not fictional characters. Barbarians become steadily more bulletproof over time. You can put a rogue in a room with a live grenade and watch him walk out unharmed.

[Shadowknight12]

It's not meant to have an answer. It's meant to be whatever you want it to be for your game. If you want ToB to be "magic without spells" it's possible. If you want it to be "mundanes who can actually achieve things" it's also possible.

Rules are not straight-jackets. Fluff is not a straight-jacket. Do whatever you want with them.

[Chronos]

Quoth The-Mage-King:
For the first point [Stone Dragon only working when standing on earth]: perhaps a school of fighting that depends on being on solid, steady fighting won't work well in the air. Give that any thought?And it also won't work in a building with thick oak floors?

[Water_Bear]

Not to pick a side here* but how does the "existence" of the Arcane Swordsage ACF impact the Magic v. Mundane (but still occasionally Su) argument? That would seem to push it towards the Magic side.

Also, how does Arcane Swordsage actually work? I've read the part in ToB where they mention it but I still can't figure out the details. Do they get Stances? Do their spells re-fresh like Maneuvers would?

*I like ToB and don't particularly care if it's magic or not

[Flickerdart]

Also, how does Arcane Swordsage actually work? I've read the part in ToB where they mention it but I still can't figure out the details. Do they get Stances? Do their spells re-fresh like Maneuvers would?
The writers didn't think that far ahead. If someone wants to play an Arcane Swordsage, the DM basically has to homebrew it from scratch.

[Answerer]

Not to pick a side here* but how does the "existence" of the Arcane Swordsage ACF impact the Magic v. Mundane (but still occasionally Su) argument? That would seem to push it towards the Magic side.
Not even a little bit. The Arcane Swordsage, if it exists, is specifically getting magical abilities and is a magical class. That doesn't affect the Crusader, non-Arcane Swordsage, or Warblade any.


Also, how does Arcane Swordsage actually work? I've read the part in ToB where they mention it but I still can't figure out the details. Do they get Stances? Do their spells re-fresh like Maneuvers would?
It's not a class, variant or otherwise: it's an idea. A suggestion. If you wanted to go that route, you could look to creating a "spell list" for it and hammer out the details such as your questions. But Wizards hasn't because it isn't an actual class, it's just an idea.

Technically, Unarmed Swordsage is too, but they basically laid out the entirety of that while they only vaguely described how an Arcane Swordsage might work.

If you actually specifically come up with a "spell list" for the Arcane Swordsage, it can be quite balanced. If you literally just let someone have their pick of all Sor/Wiz Abjuration, Evocation, and Transmutation spells, well, congratulations on creating a new Tier 1 (or less) class?

[Douglas]

The writers didn't think that far ahead. If someone wants to play an Arcane Swordsage, the DM basically has to homebrew it from scratch.
Or copy the homebrew someone else came up with. Such as the one linked in my sig.:smallwink:

[HunterOfJello]

Mostly mundane with a bit of paladin-esque magic and Warmage-esque magic thrown in.

I've never seen a problem with any of it. Then again, I've read the entire book and seen the classes being used in games I've DMed.

[The-Mage-King]

Quoth The-Mage-King:And it also won't work in a building with thick oak floors?

Damned if I know. It just says it won't work when not on the ground.

Alternatively, oak has a different "feel" than stone or dirt, and is too prone to wobbling from people fighting on it.



This sort of problem is why I usually detest Stone Dragon....

[Righteous Doggy]

Since no one brought it up, I should probably point out that an out of the box warblade doesn't get desert wind, devoution, or shadow hand. They're just a well practiced fighter. Devoution is devouted to crusade who is paladin-esque, and swordsages get the crazy monk/ninja shenanigans. Of course they're at least a little magical right? I actually don't see where all this ki stuff comes from, nor the term blade magic outside of the chapter cover. I've played warblades and I don't think I've ever done anything magical with them.
Stone dragon's key skill is balance, don't reinforce the idea that you need stone itself. Otherwise one could argue dirt, sand, wood, and metal make mountain hammer useless... Its something stable to stand on, rather than try to make some insane midair swing.(though i do like the idea of mountain hammer smashing through the floor when you use it on a foe in the local tavern :smalltongue:.) Its sort of like how all of diamond minds powers come from concentration, if you can't think well it would be pretty hard to find kinks in armor or everythings place in the world.

[danzibr]

To throw in my two cents, I think of ToB stuff as being absolutely mundane but incredibly baddonkey. They do stuff that is so baddonkey is seems like magic.

[Righteous Doggy]

To throw in my two cents, I think of ToB stuff as being absolutely mundane but incredibly baddonkey. They do stuff that is so baddonkey is seems like magic.

So I have to ask... how does one use shadows to create ice in the heart, choke a victim with a noose, teleport, summon fire elementals, and throw jut his weapon into the ground as to create a 60ft controllable fire line based on the snake game? I wanna do this stuff in real life too!

[Amphetryon]

So I have to ask... how does one use shadows to create ice in the heart, choke a victim with a noose, teleport, summon fire elementals, and throw jut his weapon into the ground as to create a 60ft controllable fire line based on the snake game? I wanna do this stuff in real life too!

You're choosing some of the explicitly (SU) abilities - which are in the minority - for this specious request. You're also free to fluff "ice in the heart" as "chilling your opponent's resolve such that it fails" if that works better for your campaign.

As for the mundane stuff I'd like to do in real life, Evasion allows you to stand naked in a room barely large enough to hold you, have a bomb goes off in that room, and escape all damage. I've yet to see anyone call that particular ability "weaboo".

[Lord_Gareth]

You're choosing some of the explicitly (SU) abilities - which are in the minority - for this specious request. You're also free to fluff "ice in the heart" as "chilling your opponent's resolve such that it fails" if that works better for your campaign.

As for the mundane stuff I'd like to do in real life, Evasion allows you to stand naked in a room barely large enough to hold you, have a bomb goes off in that room, and escape all damage. I've yet to see anyone call that particular ability "weaboo".

Oh, it's even better than all that - if you put a second-level or higher rogue inside a coffin that casts fireball on its inside once a round he still has a chance of somehow avoiding all damage.

I love evasion.

[JKTrickster]

I think the problem is that Tome of Battle, above any other book, really stretches into the superhuman territory. Now I don't mean that there isn't superhuman material in other books. It's just that ToB is consistently so, unlike PHB where the Fighter is kind of left in the dust while the Monk is given the whole "supernatural" aspect.

Deal is, the developers knew that ToB was much stronger than the PHB counterparts. So they decided to give it an "unique" fluff, but that just make people accuse of it of being too "magical".

The problem is with the term mundane as well. Mundane is normal, average, run of the mill. It implies that the average joe should be able to train and do it, or at least have the opportunity to try to.

By definition superhumans are not. They do things that are special, above average, and unique. They do things that others cannot easily do or copy, and often are quite unbelievable.

And well, DnD isn't mundane either. Honestly? I cannot even call a Fighter mundane. Do you see how much HP a Fighter gets? That alone can push it into Superhuman territory. A fighter, even at lower levels, takes MUCH more punishment than the average human can take.

I can't imagine anyone in real life being able to emulate the PC classes. Even the lowest tiers ones.

So honestly? No, not mundane. Just not magical either.

But then again DnD has a term for that... (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#extraordinaryAbilities)

[Flickerdart]

Deal is, the developers knew that ToB was much stronger than the PHB counterparts.
Except it isn't. ToB is more versatile, but any core class except Monk could kick a ToB class's ass up and down the street, because they all have higher optimization ceilings.

[jaybird]

Except it isn't. ToB is more versatile, but any core class except Monk could kick a ToB class's ass up and down the street, because they all have higher optimization ceilings.

Paladin>Crusader? I'd...like to see an example of that.

[Flickerdart]

Paladin>Crusader? I'd...like to see an example of that.
Mounted charge does a lot of damage, and the paladin's horse is tough enough to survive the delivery. Battle Blessing, SotAO and the Spell Compendium also help - the Paladin can Polymorph himself and his horse into big nasties as a swift action and make with the munchies.

[Thrawn183]

While I generally stay out of these discussions, there is one little thing I'd like to address.

Moment of Perfect Mind. If this is magical, than so are Robilar's Gambit and Kharmic Strike.