Melee Bard Help

[alliran]

Hi All,

I have a few friends that are starting up a D&D 3.5 night and Ive been invited to join. Ive been out of D&D for quite a while (havent played sense 3.0), and was wondering if i could get some help on creating a Bard.

I am looking to create a IC/DFI melee based bard. Our group is fairly melee strong (1 rogue, 1 barb, 1 monk) so I looking to create a bard to make the melees beefier while also holding my own. Ive seen alot of posts about Snowflake wardance, 1/2 of them saying its a must and 1/2 of them saying dont touch it. so im a little confused. Ive also seen posts about dabbing into warblade/crusader for Song of the White Raven.

I also see alot of guides suggesting Echoblades, which are longswords. Im confused as to how they allow the snowflake bonus, as they arnt one handed unelss you get the 2 handed fist feats?

IF anyone has a complete guide for a good melee bard i would greatly appreciate it. Our DM is allowing all tombs/books other then psionics. So with the the mast majority of spells/feats available I'm a little overwhelmed.

My current idea right now is:

Race: Silverbrow Human
Stats:
CHA: 18
INT:13
STR:12
CON:18
DEX:12
WIS:11
(we are not playing buy, we rolled for stats and i got really lucky with 2 18s)

Would this be the correct stat displacement? From here on im open for suggestions. I know i need to pump perform, but other then that im unsure of what skills to pump, especially with the feat like Jack of all trades. So suggestions on skills, feats, spells and when/if/how to prc would be great.

Thanks

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Well, you have several options you need to consider:

1) Are you planning on using many Bard levels, or are you going to go Bard4/Warblade16? This is important for the following reasons:

Crystal Echoblade deals additional sonic damage depending on the number of Bard levels. 4 damage isn't really enough to warrant this. If you go BardBlade, then Snowflake Wardance becomes mechanically viable, because you aren't using an Echoblade. If you have a lot of Bard levels, however, it isn't as mechanically viable for the reason you listed.

Song of the White Raven lets you stack Bard with Warblade/Crusader levels for purposes of IC. This is valuable if you're going Bard4/Warblde or Crusader 16, but otherwise not so much.

Warblade vs Crusader... do you want to be Mr. No, or do you want to be Area Effect Lockdown and Hard To Kill? Warblade has access to the Diamond Mind 'Concentration check in place of x saving throw' counters which makes it hard to hit you with Save or Lose. Crusader, though, has self-healing, damage delay, and Thicket of Blades for area-effect lockdown control.

Spells. The more Bard levels you have, the more of them you get. However, Maneuvers can be more important for a melee-centric Bard. It's up to you to decide.

Do you want War Chanter? The capstone ability will REALLY boost the effectiveness of the Rogue and the Monk, because it will give them effectively full BAB, including iteratives. It's full BAB, but you get fewer maneuvers. So you'll be going IC/DFI until the capstone, then you'll be 'twisting' IC and DFI with Song of the Legion.

2) Do you want to use Draconic Heretage to get Sonic damage on your DFI?

It is rather feat intensive, however it is possible. But since Draconic Heretage requires the feat Dragontouched anyways, there's no point in you being Silverbrow, because it gives you the Dragonblooded subtype you get with Silverbrow. But if you're okay with all the extra d6's being Fire, then going Silverbrow will save you at least one feat.

The additional advantage of Dragontouched is the use of Draconic Auras. Some of them are rather useful, and Dragontouched lets them continue to scale according to HD. It's basically another always-on party buff. I do suggest Senses to boost initiative checks, if you decide on this option. No party was ever harmed by having a higher initiative check.

I hope this has helped you with some of your questions.

[alliran]

Well, you have several options you need to consider:

1) Are you planning on using many Bard levels, or are you going to go Bard4/Warblade16? This is important for the following reasons:

Crystal Echoblade deals additional sonic damage depending on the number of Bard levels. 4 damage isn't really enough to warrant this. If you go BardBlade, then Snowflake Wardance becomes mechanically viable, because you aren't using an Echoblade. If you have a lot of Bard levels, however, it isn't as mechanically viable for the reason you listed.

Song of the White Raven lets you stack Bard with Warblade/Crusader levels for purposes of IC. This is valuable if you're going Bard4/Warblde or Crusader 16, but otherwise not so much.

Warblade vs Crusader... do you want to be Mr. No, or do you want to be Area Effect Lockdown and Hard To Kill? Warblade has access to the Diamond Mind 'Concentration check in place of x saving throw' counters which makes it hard to hit you with Save or Lose. Crusader, though, has self-healing, damage delay, and Thicket of Blades for area-effect lockdown control.

Spells. The more Bard levels you have, the more of them you get. However, Maneuvers can be more important for a melee-centric Bard. It's up to you to decide.

Do you want War Chanter? The capstone ability will REALLY boost the effectiveness of the Rogue and the Monk, because it will give them effectively full BAB, including iteratives. It's full BAB, but you get fewer maneuvers. So you'll be going IC/DFI until the capstone, then you'll be 'twisting' IC and DFI with Song of the Legion.

2) Do you want to use Draconic Heretage to get Sonic damage on your DFI?

It is rather feat intensive, however it is possible. But since Draconic Heretage requires the feat Dragontouched anyways, there's no point in you being Silverbrow, because it gives you the Dragonblooded subtype you get with Silverbrow. But if you're okay with all the extra d6's being Fire, then going Silverbrow will save you at least one feat.

The additional advantage of Dragontouched is the use of Draconic Auras. Some of them are rather useful, and Dragontouched lets them continue to scale according to HD. It's basically another always-on party buff. I do suggest Senses to boost initiative checks, if you decide on this option. No party was ever harmed by having a higher initiative check.

I hope this has helped you with some of your questions.

Hi sneaky,

Thanks for the information it is a starting point. I did see the war chanter and Songs of the Legion would looks pretty good also. How would a war chanter template look?? I believe i read that the warchanter and bard levels stack for bardic magic correct?? so say a 10 bard 10 warchanter would have 20 bardric magic uses per day??

I had looked at the dragon touched/changing the damage type of DFI also, but im am unsure of the feats required to complete it (i would assume you would move the damage to sonic)

As for a bardblade vs a Bard. I think im leaning more towards a true melee bard. The bardblade seems ok, but i was really looking for a class that can bring most of the benefits of a bard (songs, spells, ect), but also has decent melee. 4 levels of bard, which would only give you 4 bardric casts per day seems to low for me, especially if you take into consideration that in 1 fight you could burn 3 casts (SFWD, IC and DFI). Unless im not understanding the class perfectly.

Also, would dabbing into Incantrix for metamagic & spell craft to make IC last all day be a good idea?? How would this affect DFI also? Could you theoretically make both IC and DFI last all day stacking?? (i beleive the warchater allows you to stack 2 different songs correct??)

Thanks

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Hi sneaky,

Thanks for the information it is a starting point. I did see the war chanter and Songs of the Legion would looks pretty good also. How would a war chanter template look?? I believe i read that the warchanter and bard levels stack for bardic magic correct?? so say a 10 bard 10 warchanter would have 20 bardric magic uses per day??That is correct. However, it doesn't stack for determining which bardic music songs you have available to you. Most people also take this to mean it doesn't advance IC, but there's enough room for interpretation here that it's best to come up with an agreement with your GM about which interpretation is valid before you get to this point.

Standard warchanter is Bard4/Warblade2/War Chanter 10/Warblade4 in that order. Crusader may be freely exchanged for Warblade.


I had looked at the dragon touched/changing the damage type of DFI also, but im am unsure of the feats required to complete it (i would assume you would move the damage to sonic)

To change the damage type, you need:

Dragontouched. Lets you qualify for Draconic Heritage.
Draconic Heritage (War Dragon) to change the DFI from Fire to Sonic


As for a bardblade vs a Bard. I think im leaning more towards a true melee bard. The bardblade seems ok, but i was really looking for a class that can bring most of the benefits of a bard (songs, spells, ect), but also has decent melee. 4 levels of bard, which would only give you 4 bardric casts per day seems to low for me, especially if you take into consideration that in 1 fight you could burn 3 casts (SFWD, IC and DFI). Unless im not understanding the class perfectly. The feat Extra Bardic Music fixes this problem handily, and a Bardblade has a higher BAB, and more melee capability.


Also, would dabbing into Incantrix for metamagic & spell craft to make IC last all day be a good idea?? How would this affect DFI also? Could you theoretically make both IC and DFI last all day stacking?? (i beleive the warchater allows you to stack 2 different songs correct??)No. Metamagic feats cannot apply to spell-like or supernatural abilities, such as Bardic Music. You cannot use Incantatrix to persist IC.

However, bardic music has a duration of 'As long as you keep singing, plus five rounds'. If you never stop singing, it never ends. Combine with Melodic Casting so casting magic doesn't interfere with Bardic Music and you're gold.


Thanks

Any time

[alliran]

That is correct. However, it doesn't stack for determining which bardic music songs you have available to you. Most people also take this to mean it doesn't advance IC, but there's enough room for interpretation here that it's best to come up with an agreement with your GM about which interpretation is valid before you get to this point.

Standard warchanter is Bard4/Warblade2/War Chanter 10/Warblade4 in that order. Crusader may be freely exchanged for Warblade.

Ok cool. I was looking at the complete warrior guide at the war chanter. Im thinking this looks like a good option for me.



The feat Extra Bardic Music fixes this problem handily, and a Bardblade has a higher BAB, and more melee capability.

So would this build hold true for the above bard4/warblade2/war chanter 10/ Warblade 4?? or is a bardblade a completely different build?


No. Metamagic feats cannot apply to spell-like or supernatural abilities, such as Bardic Music. You cannot use Incantatrix to persist IC.

Im a little confused here, ive seen alot of people through around the Breaking Down Inspire Courage Optimization, Handbook Edition (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9830.0) which contains a section on incantarix and persisting IC.

Incantatrix Levels (Player's Guide to Faerun 61): @3 you get Metamagic Effect which applies to "a persistent spell effect that is already in place." With Persistent Spell a high enough Spellcraft, you can make Inspire Courage (Su) last all day. You can Extend it, too!

This trick also works if an ally takes Incantatrix.

Incantatrix requires 4 Concentration ranks, 8 Knowledge: Arcana ranks, 8 Spellcraft ranks, the feat Iron Will, a metamagic feat, the ability to cast level 3 arcane spells, and the ability to cast Abjuration spells. Once in, you must forbid one school of magic like a Wizard does. Debatably, this means you can keep the spells you know of your opposed school, but can't learn new ones. Ask your DM.

Is this section wrong? (not that i dont belive you :) just wondering)



However, bardic music has a duration of 'As long as you keep singing, plus five rounds'. If you never stop singing, it never ends. Combine with Melodic Casting so casting magic doesn't interfere with Bardic Music and you're gold.

Ok cool. Would you suggest using the harmonizing enchant then to extend IC for 10 more rounds then?? (assuming i would be using IC+DFI) Also does DFI count as Bardric music?? (will harmonizing extend the length of dfi 2?)


Im going to see attempt to put together a template based on the bard/warblade/ war chanter you suggested above. If you wouldnt mind looking over it. ill Post it at the end of this thread when im done.

Thank you

[ShneekeyTheLost]

So would this build hold true for the above bard4/warblade2/war chanter 10/ Warblade 4?? or is a bardblade a completely different build?War Chanter could also take Extra Music, but since War Chanter and Bard stack for number of Bardic Music uses per day, it's largely unnecessary.


Im a little confused here, ive seen alot of people through around the Breaking Down Inspire Courage Optimization, Handbook Edition (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9830.0) which contains a section on incantarix and persisting IC.

Incantatrix Levels (Player's Guide to Faerun 61): @3 you get Metamagic Effect which applies to "a persistent spell effect that is already in place." With Persistent Spell a high enough Spellcraft, you can make Inspire Courage (Su) last all day. You can Extend it, too!

This trick also works if an ally takes Incantatrix.

Incantatrix requires 4 Concentration ranks, 8 Knowledge: Arcana ranks, 8 Spellcraft ranks, the feat Iron Will, a metamagic feat, the ability to cast level 3 arcane spells, and the ability to cast Abjuration spells. Once in, you must forbid one school of magic like a Wizard does. Debatably, this means you can keep the spells you know of your opposed school, but can't learn new ones. Ask your DM.

Is this section wrong? (not that i dont belive you :) just wondering)Oh, that's completely incorrect, it doesn't apply to DFI. It only works on spells. Inspire Courage is not a spell, therefore Incantatrix and metamagic feats cannot be applied to it.


Ok cool. Would you suggest using the harmonizing enchant then to extend IC for 10 more rounds then?? (assuming i would be using IC+DFI) Also does DFI count as Bardric music?? (will harmonizing extend the length of dfi 2?)Depends on how you plan on using it. Harmonizing is good for 'twisting' songs. If you plan on using IC, DFI, and Song of the Legion all in one combat, one of them is not going to be able to be maintained. If you think combat will be over in under five rounds, then Harmonizing is largely unnecessary. If it takes longer, then it would be a good investment.

However, if you wish to forego basic IC in favor of Song of the Legion, you can keep both DFI and SoL going indefinitely.


Im going to see attempt to put together a template based on the bard/warblade/ war chanter you suggested above. If you wouldnt mind looking over it. ill Post it at the end of this thread when im done.

Thank you

Sure thing, glad to be of help.