LA, lifespans, relative populations

[shadow_archmagi]

So, in your campaign world, are most of the really high level characters elves and dwarves? If not, how do you explain that elves can go around for centuries being level 1?

If there's a direct correlation between duration of lifespan and rate of levelling, does that mean that Orcs are freakishly good learners, with Orcish wizards blazing through the secrets of the cosmos in just a few years?

Furthermore, what about races like Mind Flayers? They've got a tremendous level adjustment, which means that even if everyone in Mind Flayer society is a level 1 mind flayer, you'll still have these huge communities where every able-bodied adult is a match for scores and scores of lesser races.

Then there's still the question of "Why is it that even in a race of geniuses, so few of them get around to learning any skills?" If the mind flayers do take a handful of levels, then you either end up with cities full of characters that are technically into Epic Levels which is a problem in and of itself.

[Yawgmoth]

If there's a direct correlation between duration of lifespan and rate of levelling There isn't. Elves et al. take longer because they have longer. It's the same reason a dragon will take a century what an elf will take a decade what a human will take a month to plan out - because they have time to.

[Water_Bear]

Logically, yes Elves should have a disproportionately high number of Epic Wizards. The question is why don't they?

The traditional answer is that there aren't that many Elves; they live 7.5x longer than Humans but there are only 13.33% as many of them. This is likely the most sane option for any given campaign world.

My personal favorite answer is that Elves age like Ravens and many other birds. In their youth they are playful knowledge seekers who **** around until they have a decent understanding of most things in their environment. Then adulthood hits and they suffer from crippling Neophobia, becoming set in their ways and stubborn. This lets them keep their Intelligence scores while explaining why an average Elf takes so long to gain each new level.

The third and craziest option I can think of it that Elven Wizards are so tasty that Mindflayers have been over-hunting them for millennia. So few make it to Epic Level because the vast majority of Elf Wizards are eaten once they figure out 4th level spells.

[ericgrau]

You could consider that many adventurers go from 1 to 20 in about 3 years, and thus lifespan is irrelevant. The bigger issues limiting higher level adventurers are the high mortality rate and extremely low percentage of extraordinary people.

Now why wizards gain more power with experience points rather than studying is another issue.

[shadow_archmagi]

You could consider that many adventurers go from 1 to 20 in about 3 years, and thus lifespan is irrelevant. The bigger issues limiting higher level adventurers are the high mortality rate and extremely low percentage of extraordinary people.

Now why wizards gain more power with experience points rather than studying is another issue.

Adventurers are the exception to the rule- Most NPC wizards will actually spend their time doing wizard things instead of saving the world.

[Emperor Tippy]

You have to remember that level 5 is pretty much the absolute best in the real world.

Most humans in a D&D world are never going to break level 3 and are lucky to have one stat of 12 or higher. Thanks to breeding rates and sheer numbers humans are going to produce more exceptional individuals than elves, for example, but you are still talking maybe 1% of the population hitting level 5 (and it's honestly closer to .1%).

Where the long lived races like Elves pull ahead is in the number of individuals who reach level 5 or so. An elf might be a level 2 fighter, level 3 wizard, level 2 ranger, level 1 monk, level 2 rogue. That would make him a level 10 character but even a level 10 fighter would kill him with great ease.

For things like Mind Flayers and Dragons, yes these are creatures of legend that can credibly threaten entire armies. They are also dealing with enemies on a similar level and are vastly outnumbered.

You also have to realize that a Mind Flayer with a single class level spent 15,000 XP to level. That is enough for a member of a weaker race to become 6th level. A Mind Flayer with 2 levels is equal to a 8th level weaker creature in XP.

That 1 in a billion person who hits level 20 isn't just a legend, they are the legend. These are individuals who for all intents and purposes are gods, and they are treated as such. Many level 20 wizards are smarter than most gods, many level 20 bards are more charismatic, many level 20 fighters are stronger. These characters can single handedly make or break entire civilizations and worlds, there peer group is the generals of the armies of the heavens and hells, the great wyrms of the draconic races, etc.

[hamishspence]

I've seen that claim before- and while it might possibly be valid for "real world people" in the sense of combat ability, accuracy, toughness, and so on not scaling up, it's not valid for D&D.

The DMG rules for NPCs mean that every city will have quite a few level 6+ NPCs of various classes. Cityscape, Arms and Equipment Guide, and so forth all make it clear that level 10 or so isn't especially legendary - it's what you'd expect in a city.

D20 modern follows similar principles- most of the basic NPC templates go up to 10th level- though they're often multiclass.

A scientist with tenure and a government grant would be a 10th level Smart Ordinary.

A SWAT commander would be a 5th level Fast Ordinary/5th level Tough Ordinary.

[Emperor Tippy]

It doesn't say that they will all be of one class.

You can have a level 12 human that has 2 levels of warrior, 3 levels of fighter, 2 level of ranger, 1 level of warblade, 3 levels of aristocrat, and 1 level of expert.

---
Going by the DMG numbers, a metropolis (a city of 20,000 or more people) will have, at most (I maximized all the rolls).

Wizard: Total of 124
level 16: 4
Level 8: 8
Level 4: 16
Level 2: 32
Level 1: 64

Sorcerer: Total of 124
level 16: 4
Level 8: 8
Level 4: 16
Level 2: 32
Level 1: 64

Monk: Total of 124
level 16: 4
Level 8: 8
Level 4: 16
Level 2: 32
Level 1: 64

Barbarian: Total of 124
level 16: 4
Level 8: 8
Level 4: 16
Level 2: 32
Level 1: 64

Bard: Total of 252
Level 18: 4
Level 9: 8
Level 5: 16
Level 3: 32
Level 2: 64
Level 1: 128

Cleric: Total of 252
Level 18: 4
Level 9: 8
Level 5: 16
Level 3: 32
Level 2: 64
Level 1: 128

Druid: Total of 252
Level 18: 4
Level 9: 8
Level 5: 16
Level 3: 32
Level 2: 64
Level 1: 128

Fighter: Total of 252
Level 20: 4
Level 10: 8
Level 5: 16
Level 3: 32
Level 2: 64
Level 1: 128

Rogue: Total of 252
Level 20: 4
Level 10: 8
Level 5: 16
Level 3: 32
Level 2: 64
Level 1: 128

Paladin: Total of 124
Level 15: 4
Level 8: 8
Level 4: 16
Level 2: 32
Level 1: 64

Ranger: Total of 124
Level 15: 4
Level 8: 8
Level 4: 16
Level 2: 32
Level 1: 64

For the total number of people with any PC levels being 2,004. Or 10% of the total population. The number above 5th level is 132, or .66% of the total population.

If you include the NPC classes the numbers aren't much better.

Upwards of 90% of the population is under level 3. And it's worse outside of metropolises.

In a small town the absolute highest level character possible is a 16th level commoner, with the absolute highest PC level being an 8th level fighter. The average small town will have a 5th level fighter with a 10th level commoner.

And this is all assuming that everyone is single classed. When you start throwing in multiclass characters it gets even worse.

[hamishspence]

Multiclasses probably aren't that common - hence the DMG not taking them into account. It just lists the number of single class characters.

If you're using the Planar Metropolis rules in Epic Handbook, the number of high level characters goes up a bit (planar metropolis is a city with a population of 100,000 or more).

How common cities this big are will depend on the setting, though.

[Calanon]

If you're using the Planar Metropolis rules in Epic Handbook, the number of high level characters goes up a bit (planar metropolis is a city with a population of 100,000 or more.

... I did a double take on that comment...

[hamishspence]

Since some cities will be much bigger than 20,000 people, it helps to know how many high level people there will be in those kinds of cities.

The point I'm trying to make is that level 20 might be rare and awesome, but level 10 isn't really quite as rare as is being implied, in-setting.

[Emperor Tippy]

.66% of the setting population breaks level 5 (level 6 or higher), at best.

That is assuming the maximum dice rolls and that the entire population lives in metropolises or better. In point of fact, to support a city before modern agriculture required about 10 times as many people as the cities population.

You are looking at (being very generous) 1% of 10% of the population being over level 10. That's one in a thousand people who is level 6 or higher, again at best. If you use average numbers slash that at least in half.

A nation of a million people might have a hundred who have 20 levels in a PC class. Might.

And that these people are relatively common doesn't change that they are still heroes out of legend and demigods to 99% of the population.

[Omegas]

You could consider that many adventurers go from 1 to 20 in about 3 years, and thus lifespan is irrelevant. The bigger issues limiting higher level adventurers are the high mortality rate and extremely low percentage of extraordinary people.

Now why wizards gain more power with experience points rather than studying is another issue.You know this also begs the question of:

It took me 6 hears to reach level 40, and now there is no room for improvement, so the experiences that make up the rest of my life really dont matter. (ever)

.66% of the setting population breaks level 5 (level 6 or higher), at best.

And that these people are relatively common doesn't change that they are still heroes out of legend and demigods to 99% of the population.
I have always hated this mentality, and here is why.

Your in an area of the world where you are the top 1%. Your enemy will provide you with a constant stream of challenging encounters. This equates to impossible encounters for everyone else. This only suggest that the people that live there would never have survived without you.

Everyone know D&D is not an army game, but the players should be surrounded by a force that can hold their own in whatever area or plain they are in. There should always be an overwhelming force that keeps the players in check or inspires them to greatness. (weather through numbers or levels) A non-epic party that is powerful enough to take on a kingdom, that they are suppose to be helping, is poor campaign setting.

[Emperor Tippy]

No, it's really not. When the players are level 20 they aren't helping a kingdom, they are helping an entire world or plane.

Where a level 1-level 5 character might help a city, a level 5-10 character might help a nation, a level 10-15 character might help a region or species, a level 20 character is looking out for the interests of an entire plane. It's simply the scale that has increased, to keep up with their power.

The players shouldn't be facing 4 CR 20 random encounters while wandering around Greyhawk. Their 4 encounters come when they are wandering around the battlefields of the Abyss.

The encounters per day metric is also something that is often misunderstood. Those are encounters per adventuring day. A level 1-4 character might get an adventure per day, a level 5-8 character might get an adventure per week, a level 9-12 character might get an adventure per month, a level 13-16 character might get an adventure per year, a level 17-20 character might get an adventure per decade.

That's not to say that higher level characters can't go slumming and face adventures that are way below their level or go actively looking for/creating their own adventure but it is to say that the random encounters and random adventure hooks that they get hit with just aren't common.

---
Every D&D setting is also a death world. Life is cheap, people die fast, easily, and in very large numbers. A single person committing suicide can easily lead to an entire village being depopulated (it's how Allip's are created).

[shadow_archmagi]

.66% of the setting population breaks level 5 (level 6 or higher), at best.

So, *why* are Mind Flayers vastly outnumbered? *Why* are they so reluctant to learn?

[Emperor Tippy]

So, *why* are Mind Flayers vastly outnumbered? *Why* are they so reluctant to learn?

They aren't reluctant to learn. In point of fact they very much like learning. The problem is that they already know all the tricks that those lower level people are finding out that makes them higher level people. For a mindflayer to get 1 level requires enough experience for a human to get to 6th level. It's not that they learn slower, it's that they have already picked all the low hanging fruit.

They already have the same saves and BAB as a 6th level fighter (except with a good will instead of a good fort).

[Beowulf DW]

To answer the original post, in the campaign world that my friends and I have been making and campaigning in (My friends have done most of the making, I just contribute little tidbits every now and then) we take the Mass Effect solution. In that universe, one species, the Salarians, lives for about 40 years. However, they learn faster and think faster than any other race.

As such, the humans learn faster and think faster than the elves. A human can learn in a year what might take an elf a half-dozen years to learn.

[Yora]

In my setting, elves only get to be about 300 years old if they don't die of something else, and the aging process is constantly slowing down, making a 30 year old elf just like a 20 year old human.
Also, there are no really high level characters at all. 11th level is the effective Epic level and there are maybe a hundred of that level or higher in the whole world. But yes, since they are the single largest race, most of these characters are elves.

[Shadowknight12]

High level characters get killed a lot. Sure, elves and dwarves have a higher chance to become high-level in their lifetimes, but that just means they are either saddled with the responsibility to protect the weaker at the expense of their lives, or they become the targets of power-hungry enemies. Why do they have enemies? Because they have power. And people want power. So really, why become high-level and risk a stressful life and untimely death when you can live and die in peace by being a level 1 commoner who gathers fruit for the hidden elven village or carves statues for the vast underground palaces of the dwarves?

High-LA monsters are rare, because they're innately powerful and power makes you a target. There is no amount of power that cannot be beset by cooperation. Even if you had a whole army of ancient wyrm dragons or a local wightocalypse, they would eventually be brought down by sufficient cooperation. They do not, in general, have any time to gain levels or skills, because they either spend their time avoiding risks (and therefore not gaining any experience) or immediately drawing attention and getting swiftly killed.

There is no correlation between duration of lifespan and rate of levelling. You choose how fast you level up by taking risks and gaining experience. If you want a long, happy and peaceful life, you will not level. If you want to level up, you will live a stressful and horrifying life, where you will see things that will scar you and numb you emotionally, slowly chipping away at all the things you enjoyed in life. Hope power in itself is comforting, because you will sacrifice absolutely everything else in order to get it. And will likely get killed very often (sometimes even permanently).

[Calanon]

As such, the humans learn faster and think faster than the elves. A human can learn in a year what might take an elf a half-dozen years to learn.

I feel that is an insult to Elven intelligence :smallconfused:

I always felt that it takes a little less then a week to learn the basics of arcane magic but more then a single life time to even imagine mastering it (like getting to level 17 and still only knowing the basics of the truly advanced stuff) Lets look at the Netherese and the Eaerlanni Elves. This specific tribe of Elves taught the Netherese pretty much all they knew about the basics of magic, the weave, and all things arcane and even then the Elves took great noticed how quickly the Netherese took to this arcane knowledge (and the discovery of the Nether Scrolls doubled this speed if not tripled) and the Arcanist that came after these "Primordial Arcanist" grew in even greater power with each passing generation (For example, every 1-3 generations increasing the skills and knowledge of the art) it wasn't until life extending magic did there growth become stagnant and slower :smallannoyed:

...But there rapid growth can be explained because the first Nether Scroll evolves and changes based on the knowledge of the reader always teaching them something new with each reading and by the time of the Shadowed Age a good... I wanna say 50%? of the Nether Scrolls were stolen by: Elves, Gnomes, Elves and Gnomes again, and Thieves looking to make pocket change :smallannoyed: So needless to say any SERIOUS magical growth ceased... The icing on the cake was a spell known by everyone in the forum: Karsus' Avatar :smallamused:

[hamishspence]

A nation of a million people might have a hundred who have 20 levels in a PC class. Might.

This is feasible, but this:



That 1 in a billion person who hits level 20 isn't just a legend, they are the legend.

seems a bit excessive- which is the point I was trying to make- that "1 in a billion" is stretching things somewhat.

[Emperor Tippy]

This is feasible, but this:



seems a bit excessive- which is the point I was trying to make- that "1 in a billion" is stretching things somewhat.
Not really. Most nations are never going to see so much as a single level 20 character in their entire history. A hundred out of a million is the absolute peak number assuming that the entire population has the desire, means, and opportunity to be trained. I would point out that by the rules, you will never see a level 17+ wizard randomly generated. The only place one of those would exist without DM fiat is in a planar metropolis, of which there *might* be one city on the plane that qualifies.

Most of those level 20's are also going to be long lived, in many cases even outright immortal. The fact that there are only a handful of them alive at any given time when they very rarely die of anything makes that even worse.

Look at FR, there are maybe a hundred epic characters running around Toril. About 90% of them are at least a century old, several are over a thousand.

So yes, becoming level 20 is a one in a billion births event. The people who reach that point though tend to live generations.

[Starbuck_II]

So, in your campaign world, are most of the really high level characters elves and dwarves? If not, how do you explain that elves can go around for centuries being level 1?

Elves are retarded. (I'm sort of joking, but really think how little they advanced compares to humans in 100 years, need to be 100+ to even adventure)


If there's a direct correlation between duration of lifespan and rate of levelling, does that mean that Orcs are freakishly good learners, with Orcish wizards blazing through the secrets of the cosmos in just a few years?

In game, orc kill each other too much to level (too much infighting).



Furthermore, what about races like Mind Flayers? They've got a tremendous level adjustment, which means that even if everyone in Mind Flayer society is a level 1 mind flayer, you'll still have these huge communities where every able-bodied adult is a match for scores and scores of lesser races.

Level adjustment means you advance slower not faster. Drows are worse not better at advancing.
So no, huge communities where everyone advances in Exp as elves do in age.
Remenber also LA counts against you for whether you gain XP.
So the common Mindflayer can't gain XP unless it is challenged by what a 8th level character would be challenged by.
Most Kobolds add no XP to Mindflayers.
Even then, the Brain leader carefully controls his Mindflayers so none get too powerful. He doesn't want an uprising. He can't get XP to challenge them if they advance too much either.

[ericgrau]

Adventurers are the exception to the rule- Most NPC wizards will actually spend their time doing wizard things instead of saving the world.
Most NPC wizards never get past level 5, if even level 3. But ya not progressing via study is a bit unusual.

[hamishspence]

The people who reach that point though tend to live generations.

If you go by the DMG, the vast majority (that is, the randomly generated ones) will be fighters, commoners, and rogues, which, as a rule, don't live many generations.

and if "planar metropolis" in D&D simply means "city with 100,000+ people" then some settings, like Faerun, will have quite a few of them.

[Emperor Tippy]

If you go by the DMG, the vast majority (that is, the randomly generated ones) will be fighters, commoners, and rogues, which, as a rule, don't live many generations.
I was just talking about the PC classes. Even the fighters and rogues who hit level 20 have methods available to de-age themselves.

[hamishspence]

What methods are those? And is it likely that in a typical D&D world they will use them?

How many fighters and rogues will seek out druids to reincarnate themselves, or spend a fortune on wishes, miracles, or similar?

How about the experts?

[Water_Bear]

What methods are those? And is it likely that in a typical D&D world they will use them?

Reincarnate. 4th level Druid spell, and it explicitly says a Wish/Miracle can restore you to your original form if you don't like being a Goblin or whatever.

It is really quite simple for even lower level characters to avoid aging, even without Undead and other immortal templates.

-Edit-

As for how often that will come up? Well, who wouldn't want to go back to the prime of their youth and keep mixing it up with the young'uns at 100+.

[hamishspence]

People interested in experiencing the afterlife for real rather than as planar travellers, maybe.

[Emperor Tippy]

What methods are those? And is it likely that in a typical D&D world they will use them?

How many fighters and rogues will seek out druids to reincarnate themselves, or spend a fortune on wishes, miracles, or similar?

How about the experts?

Fortune? You are talking about 25K or so, it's not that expensive.

Getting Kissed by the Ages cast on you will also make you unaging, and a scroll of it costs 28,825 GP.

[Beowulf DW]

I feel that is an insult to Elven intelligence :smallconfused:

I always felt that it takes a little less then a week to learn the basics of arcane magic but more then a single life time to even imagine mastering it (like getting to level 17 and still only knowing the basics of the truly advanced stuff) Lets look at the Netherese and the Eaerlanni Elves. This specific tribe of Elves taught the Netherese pretty much all they knew about the basics of magic, the weave, and all things arcane and even then the Elves took great noticed how quickly the Netherese took to this arcane knowledge (and the discovery of the Nether Scrolls doubled this speed if not tripled) and the Arcanist that came after these "Primordial Arcanist" grew in even greater power with each passing generation (For example, every 1-3 generations increasing the skills and knowledge of the art) it wasn't until life extending magic did there growth become stagnant and slower :smallannoyed:

...But there rapid growth can be explained because the first Nether Scroll evolves and changes based on the knowledge of the reader always teaching them something new with each reading and by the time of the Shadowed Age a good... I wanna say 50%? of the Nether Scrolls were stolen by: Elves, Gnomes, Elves and Gnomes again, and Thieves looking to make pocket change :smallannoyed: So needless to say any SERIOUS magical growth ceased... The icing on the cake was a spell known by everyone in the forum: Karsus' Avatar :smallamused:

It's not an insult. Humans have a faster metabolic rate than elves, and therefore tend to do things a bit faster.

[Beowulf DW]

My post doesn't seem to be showing up...

[hamishspence]

Kissed by the Ages is from somewhere in Dragon magazine- and isn't exactly the sort of thing one would expect to be common in a D&D world.

It also raises questions about how many scrolls of it actually exist in the setting- what wizards/sorcerers etc would write the scroll and sell it.

[Zonugal]

YI have always hated this mentality, and here is why.

Your in an area of the world where you are the top 1%. Your enemy will provide you with a constant stream of challenging encounters. This equates to impossible encounters for everyone else. This only suggest that the people that live there would never have survived without you.

Everyone know D&D is not an army game, but the players should be surrounded by a force that can hold their own in whatever area or plain they are in. There should always be an overwhelming force that keeps the players in check or inspires them to greatness. (weather through numbers or levels) A non-epic party that is powerful enough to take on a kingdom, that they are suppose to be helping, is poor campaign setting.

I would just take this problem and apply the "super-hero" template to it. Would Metropolis survive without Superman? Would Gotham without Batman?

It isn't too hard to imagine that a city is somewhat reliant on a supreme being to occasionally swoop in and save it.