3 Person Party?

[Empedocles]

Ok, I'm making a 3 person party for an adventure that runs from levels 4 to 6. I'm looking for it to be fairly good, and I might optimize a bit, but not broken. Also, and this is the kicker, I'd like to avoid using PHB classes, if at all possible.

As of now, I've made a duskblade that I'm happy with but he's more squishy then would be nice (36 HP, 16 AC). He can dish out insane amounts of damage for his level (true strike+power attack+channel spell+iaijutsu focus+reach weapon) but he can't really survive that long. Ideally I'd like to have a Knight that can draw attacks and tank, but I'm not sure if the 3 person party limit will allow for that.

Obviously, I need a skill monkey with jacked up UMD, and I'm pretty sure that's going to be a bard despite the fact that I don't want to use PHB. He can buff and do some control in combat and heal outside of combat.

So as you can tell, I'm not going for a broken party. Just a functioning one with an original selection of classes (not, say, druid, cleric, wizard) and only 3 people.

[Saito Takuji]

may want to do some gesalting

[Aegis013]

I'd suggest using a Factotum instead of a bard, to keep in line with your "no PhB classes" goal. That provides an excellent skillmonkey with UMD capabilities, it simply doesn't give you Bardic Knowledge and IC and such other nifty things. Instead you get all kinds of other nifty things, such as limited arcane spellcasting via Arcane Dilettante.

As far as the Knight, I suggest Crusader from ToB. Iron Guard's Glare stance (available from level 1) works well for encouraging monsters to focus on the Crusader, plus with d10 hd and heavy armor proficiency they make for fairly sturdy characters. They have maneuvers which serve to heal themselves or their allies and between such maneuvers and the Factotum's Opportunistic Piety, you can cover healing relatively well. Just refluff it for Knight-ness if desired.

Duskblade won't provide as many options, or cover as many bases as other classes, but if you're heart set on using it, you can get away with it.

[Empedocles]

may want to do some gesalting

It's not permitted :smallfrown:


I'd suggest using a Factotum instead of a bard, to keep in line with your "no PhB classes" goal. That provides an excellent skillmonkey with UMD capabilities, it simply doesn't give you Bardic Knowledge and IC and such other nifty things. Instead you get all kinds of other nifty things, such as limited arcane spellcasting via Arcane Dilettante.

As far as the Knight, I suggest Crusader from ToB. Iron Guard's Glare stance (available from level 1) works well for encouraging monsters to focus on the Crusader, plus with d10 hd and heavy armor proficiency they make for fairly sturdy characters. They have maneuvers which serve to heal themselves or their allies and between such maneuvers and the Factotum's Opportunistic Piety, you can cover healing relatively well. Just refluff it for Knight-ness if desired.

Duskblade won't provide as many options, or cover as many bases as other classes, but if you're heart set on using it, you can get away with it.

The factotum was my first choice, but the DM vetoed it :smallfrown: I thought about a crusader, but I;'m largely against it because it requires a significant amount of bookkeeping (I am running all 3 of these characters...) and the maneuvers are randomly determined.

[Inferno]

You'll want an Artificer, for skills/trapfinding, buffs, UMD, keeping your party well equipped, and maybe even a few homunculi to give that Duskblade of yours some melee support.

Your 3rd on the other hand, I'm less about. A party face could be good maybe a human or changeling Ninja1/Cloistered Cleric x with Able Learner?

Or a Beguiler and a Swift Hunter?

Depends an awful lot on the power level you're shooting for.

[Saito Takuji]

ah well there goes that idea, then alternatley to a tank you could go with a healer type class, favored soul mabey

[Aegis013]

You'll want an Artificer, for skills/trapfinding, buffs, UMD, keeping your party well equipped, and maybe even a few homunculi to give that Duskblade of yours some melee support.

Your 3rd on the other hand, I'm less about. A party face could be good maybe a human or changeling Ninja1/Cloistered Cleric x with Able Learner?

Or a Beguiler and a Swift Hunter?

Depends an awful lot on the power level you're shooting for.

I'll second Artificer, but considering OP doesn't want to maintain the bookkeeping for Crusader... can't imagine he'd want to do it for an Artificer. Beguiler would definitely be a handy addition, and could serve as the party face.

[Empedocles]

The artificer is actually a fairly bad option for another reason, namely that our party wealth is being severely limited. Most of it will be needed for cure spells and maybe support if we have the money. The artificer is an expensive class that we won't be able to pull off right now :smallfrown:

[Jack_Simth]

Ok, I'm making a 3 person party for an adventure that runs from levels 4 to 6. I'm looking for it to be fairly good, and I might optimize a bit, but not broken. Also, and this is the kicker, I'd like to avoid using PHB classes, if at all possible.

As of now, I've made a duskblade that I'm happy with but he's more squishy then would be nice (36 HP, 16 AC). He can dish out insane amounts of damage for his level (true strike+power attack+channel spell+iaijutsu focus+reach weapon) but he can't really survive that long. Ideally I'd like to have a Knight that can draw attacks and tank, but I'm not sure if the 3 person party limit will allow for that.

Obviously, I need a skill monkey with jacked up UMD, and I'm pretty sure that's going to be a bard despite the fact that I don't want to use PHB. He can buff and do some control in combat and heal outside of combat.

Nah... Beguiler.


So as you can tell, I'm not going for a broken party. Just a functioning one with an original selection of classes (not, say, druid, cleric, wizard) and only 3 people.
Beguiler (Skillmonkey, arcanist), Favoured Soul (Divine caster), and... oh, what would make a good meatshield? Hmm.... eh, you've got a Duskblade already; that'll do.

[Empedocles]

Beguiler (Skillmonkey, arcanist), Favoured Soul (Divine caster), and... oh, what would make a good meatshield? Hmm.... eh, you've got a Duskblade already; that'll do.

I don't really see the necessity for a favored soul, especially over a different divine caster like an optimized shugenja or spirit shaman.

[Jack_Simth]

I don't really see the necessity for a favored soul, especially over a different divine caster like an optimized shugenja or spirit shaman.
Then go for the Shugenja or Spirit Shaman. So you mostly just needed help with the skillmonkey, then? Nifty.

Hmm... Would a Cloistered Cleric be close enough to non-PHB? Because they can make excellent skillmonkeys, with the right domains....

[Empedocles]

Then go for the Shugenja or Spirit Shaman. So you mostly just needed help with the skillmonkey, then? Nifty.

Hmm... Would a Cloistered Cleric be close enough to non-PHB? Because they can make excellent skillmonkeys, with the right domains....

Nah I'm more certain about the skillmonkey and tank/damage dealer guy. It's almost definitely a duskblade and beguiler/bard. It's the 3rd role I'm less certain about, and I'm a little reluctant to go straight caster.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Since you're running all three characters, that's a bit annoying. My gut reaction was to say Psion/Ardent (general caster), Totemist (meatgrinder), and then Binder (really anything, based on vestiges). All three have a lot of bookkeeping though.

EDIT: Just saw the "no fullcaster" piece. Honestly, Beguiler, Duskblade, and Crusader work if you have the maneuver cards printed out.

[Empedocles]

Since you're running all three characters, that's a bit annoying. My gut reaction was to say Psion/Ardent (general caster), Totemist (meatgrinder), and then Binder (really anything, based on vestiges). All three have a lot of bookkeeping though.

EDIT: Just saw the "no fullcaster" piece. Honestly, Beguiler, Duskblade, and Crusader work if you have the maneuver cards printed out.

Would a duskblade, beguiler, and a binder work?

[Draz74]

I challenged myself to make a decent 3-person party once. Here's what I came up with:

Gnome Savage Fey Bard 6 / Lyric Thaumaturge 3 / Virtuoso 5 / Sublime Chord 2 / Shadowcraft Mage 4. With the Healing Hymn, Gnome Cantrips, and Counter Fear bard ACFs.

Party face, utility caster, battlefield control caster, healer, low-level meat shield (via animal companion), and knowledge monkey.

Crusader 6 / Paladin 4 / Ruby Knight Vindicator 10.

Meatshield and in-combat HP healer, and stealth monkey. RKV isn't so broken when it's on a Paladin base instead of a Cleric base.

Barbarian 4 / Totemist 11 / Totem Rager 5. With the Pounce and Trapkiller barbarian ACFs.

Trapmonkey, nature specialist, meatshield, and extreme melee damage grinder.


Would a duskblade, beguiler, and a binder work?

Lacking a healer (even a Bard or Crusader) kind of hurts. Not impossible to overcome, but unfortunate.

[Empedocles]

I see what you did there with the 3 person party. It's nice...but 16 levels out of reach for this adventure :smalltongue:

A lot of people have suggested crusader...what about duskblade (pretty much set on that one), crusader, and bard/beguiler?

[docnessuno]

Duskblade (damage dealing)

Archivist (Divine caster, buffing, debuffing, battlefield control)

Artificer (blasting, buffing, stkillmonkey and trapfinder)

While none of those is a 'pure' frontliner, each can reach a more than decent AC, giving a well-rounded group.

[Draz74]

I see what you did there with the 3 person party. It's nice...but 16 levels out of reach for this adventure :smalltongue:
Well, I built them level-by-level. Although I'll admit that Level 4 is an unfortunate spot, since you don't have a trapmonkey until Level 5.

I know you're not going to use my party, but just for the sake of bragging, here's what they look like at Level 4.
Human Crusader 1 / Paladin 3
Feats: Power Attack, Extra Granted Maneuver, Improved Bull Rush
Stances/Maneuvers: Iron Guard's Glare; Crusader's Strike, Vanguard Strike, Douse the Flames, Charging Minotaur, Stone Bones

Gnome Savage Fey Bard 4
Feats: Melodic Casting, Spell Focus (Illusion)
Spells: Prestidigitation, Dancing Lights, Ghost Sound, Message, Detect Magic, Summon Instrument, Mending; Improvisation, Grease, Silent Image; Silence
Animal Companion: Fleshraker or Dire Bat, probably.

Duskling Barbarian 2 / Totemist 2
Feats: Cobalt Rage, Expanded Soulmeld Capacity
Feature: Pounce
Soulmelds: I didn't really work these out in detail, but I'd imagine Girallon Arms would be in there. Of course they can also change from day to day.


A lot of people have suggested crusader...what about duskblade (pretty much set on that one), crusader, and bard/beguiler?

Can work, but it's a bit melee-heavy. Oh, and does "bard/beguiler" mean one of the two, or a multiclass? Because that strikes me as a multiclass combo that's significantly weaker than either pureclass option.

You should be able to do without a Crusader (e.g. with a Binder instead) if you have another good source of healing. Bard with Healing Hymn qualifies. Duskblade / Bard / Binder doesn't have Trapfinding, though, unless one of them uses dips or Incarnum Feats to acquire it.

Of course, you were worried about bookkeeping, since you're going to be running three characters? Because I think Binder is more bookkeeping-intensive than Crusader.

[Thomasinx]

As far as most powerful...

Archivist (Divine and healing), Psion (Power+flexibility)

Then for the third slot, if it was going to last longer than 2 levels, I'd recommend artificer. (Power+Flexibility+magic items) If there's only a range from levels 4-6, then a tank or skillmonkey would probably be more effective (even though long term artificer would help more).