How Belkar will "Survive"

[Ezra_The_Mad]

General consensus says that Belkar will breathe his last very, very soon. Probably die some heroic death defending the gate. Alternately, he'll die like the mass-murdering lunatic he is. Potato, Po-tah-toh. But the wording of the Oracle's prediction is key-

"Belkar Bitterleaf will breathe his last within the year."

"Breathe his last" being the imperative words. My idea for how Rich would get around killing one of the most popular characters? See Monster Manual 2. Page 208.

The Death Knight template.

This technically follows the prediction, and also follows the idea of the Oracle's predictions only being true technically. He will have "breathed his last", as undead explicitly do not breathe, eat or sleep. One of the possible ways this might happen is Belkar dying fighting Xykon, who raises him as a Death Knight. We sort of hit a roadblock when you realize that this pretty much makes Belkar Rivendare unkillable by the Order currently- The Death Knight template carries a +5 LA, for good reason. Belkar would gain DR 15/+1, natural armor, all the immunities a lich has (Cold, electricity, polymorph), spell resistance up the yin-yang, turning immunity, and bonuses to Str, Wis, and Cha that might actually be enough to let him start casting as a Ranger of his level.

This might actually turn Belkar into a sort of secondary Dragon for Xykon, replacing Tsukiko.

[KillianHawkeye]

Yawn... this still doesn't explain all the other things the Oracle said about Belkar's inevitable demise. "Not long for this world...", et al.

[Whiffet]

Wait, wait, wait. Hang on a second. There's a general consensus that Belkar is going to die? Since when? I thought he was going to be transported to the world-in-the-rift and draw a picture he would call "his last breath" and lose his sense of taste so he can't enjoy cake anymore. Oh, and his money isn't any good in the world-in-the-rift so why bother funding his IRA?

EDIT: That or Belkar-from-the-future will show up and get himself killed. Time travel really confuses these prophecies.

[nihil8r]

Wait, wait, wait. Hang on a second. There's a general consensus that Belkar is going to die? Since when? I thought he was going to be transported to the world-in-the-rift and draw a picture he would call "his last breath" and lose his sense of taste so he can't enjoy cake anymore. Oh, and his money isn't any good in the world-in-the-rift so why bother funding his IRA?

+1 internets

[factotum]

How will Belkar "survive"? He won't. Next question?

[fergo]

. My idea for how Rich would get around killing one of the most popular characters? See Monster Manual 2. Page 208.


It's a good catch, but... why do you think Rich wants to 'get around' anything?

Rich has had this story planned out for a long, long time. He decided what the Oracle was going to say. If he didn't want to kill of Belkar, why would he have said it?

Simple as that :smallsmile:

[Winter]

Belkar will die and stay dead. No resurrection, no undeath, no loopholes. Dead as a Parrot. He'll be an ex-Belkar.

The oracle was very, very clear on that.

And apart from this: Belkar is so horribly Evil that any ending with him surviving (in any way) is not a "good" ending. Take note he is just as evil as Xykon and will cause unending suffering and horrible things should he somehow "survive" (in any way) the story.
No, for the Order to win this thing, Belkar - just like Xykon - has to go permanently before the last panel.

[ti'esar]

This thread again?

You know, I like Belkar (at least as much as I like any character of his archetype), but at times like this I dearly wish he would just go ahead and bite it so these things would stop popping up.

As a more concrete objection - or rather, as a more concrete objection that hasn't been specifically mentioned yet - we've already seen a death knight, as one of the Xyklones at Azure City, and he was essentially a glorified mook. While more might pop up with Team Evil in the future, I don't see them being reused for a main character.

[Winter]

Do not hold your hopes up. Should Belkar die (even in a very, very clear manner), you'll see "Belkar will come back" threads in the same frequency and with the very same content as these "Belkar will not die permanently" threads.

[terenes]

I don't belive in any loopholes.
I DO belive that Oracle is one of Sides. He has his own goals (Tiamath goals at least). He hates Belkar. He doesn't have to speak truth all the time. And he doesn't "forget" that Roy won't forget his "prophecy".

Oracle just want Belkar to die (or smth) and is trying to make self-fullfilling prophecy. Will he succeed?

And! What has been fortold doesn't actually have to happen. PCs can try to avoid dangers, changing theirs fate.

[Winter]

And! What has been fortold doesn't actually have to happen. PCs can try to avoid dangers, changing theirs fate.

In a story, that would be very, very lame.

Belkar will die. He is no PC in a RPG. He is a character in a story based on an RPG. Good stories need closure or they start to suck in the 6th, 7th or 8th season. OotS will have that end, which means as it is going near the end, the status quo (as in "This is the group of adventurers this is about") does not have to get uphold all the time, which means characters can leave or die when it is dramatically appropiate and fitting for their character*.

* As a sidenote, that is true as well for "real" RPGs. A good character needs a good ending or it starts to become stale and lame. "Ending" does not have to but can include death.

[Kish]

I don't belive in any loopholes.
[snip remainder of post, which is all about loopholes]
I don't think that word means what you think it means.

[bertoltus]

I would love to see Belkar jump through all the loopholes you made up, only to be killed off anyway.

[terenes]

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

Loophole - a small mistake in an agreement or law which gives someone the chance to avoid having to do something
(Cambridge Dictionary)

In this case - not agreement or law but prophecy. I'm not writing about small mistakes but about entire concept of prophecies and I'm questioning if this is a prophecy at all. So not about loopholes. Text of prophecy isn't important to me at all.

[Jaros]

Oracle just want Belkar to die (or smth) and is trying to make self-fullfilling prophecy. Will he succeed?

Thing is I don't see how it could be a self-fulfilling prophecy right now, as only Roy (and I think Haley) now about it.

[FujinAkari]

I DO belive that Oracle is one of Sides. He has his own goals (Tiamath goals at least). He hates Belkar. He doesn't have to speak truth all the time. And he doesn't "forget" that Roy won't forget his "prophecy".

Oracle just want Belkar to die (or smth) and is trying to make self-fullfilling prophecy. Will he succeed?

And! What has been fortold doesn't actually have to happen. PCs can try to avoid dangers, changing theirs fate.

Trouble with this is that the Oracle has yet to ever be wrong. Every prediction the Oracle has ever made has been correct. Assuming that Belkar's prediction will be wrong is simply wishful thinking.

[Kish]

Loophole - a small mistake in an agreement or law which gives someone the chance to avoid having to do something
(Cambridge Dictionary)

In this case - not agreement or law but prophecy. I'm not writing about small mistakes but about entire concept of prophecies and I'm questioning if this is a prophecy at all. So not about loopholes. Text of prophecy isn't important to me at all.
You made two separate claims. One of them was that the Oracle "is a side," and "hates Belkar," and is trying to make a self-fulfilling prophecy (and yet, is somehow unable to see the result of this attempt and either guarantee its success or not bother because of knowing it will fail).

The other was, "What has been fortold[sic] doesn't actually have to happen."

Technically, I suppose, rejecting the prophecy isn't looking for a loophole in exactly the same way as arguing that the prophecy will come true but not mean Belkar dying, but really, a difference that makes no difference is no difference.

[Bulldog Psion]

Yawn... this still doesn't explain all the other things the Oracle said about Belkar's inevitable demise. "Not long for this world...", et al.

Actually, though I think that he's going to die, the "Not long for this world" quote was NOT given in the Oracle's prophetic trance mode. Therefore, it is fallible and not necessarily accurate.

The only "guaranteed prophecy" we have is:

"Belkar will draw his last breath -- ever -- before the end of the year."

That's it. The "undead speculation" people are on solid ground, as far as I can tell, even if I don't agree with them. There's nothing that the Oracle prophesied that is contrary to that theory. And the prophecy is the important part here.

Not everything that comes out of the Oracle's lips is inevitable, only what's given in his trance state. The "not long for this world", IRA, etc. quote were not part of an oracular trance, and therefore don't need to be accurate.

[Forikroder]

I don't belive in any loopholes.
I DO belive that Oracle is one of Sides. He has his own goals (Tiamath goals at least). He hates Belkar. He doesn't have to speak truth all the time. And he doesn't "forget" that Roy won't forget his "prophecy".

Oracle just want Belkar to die (or smth) and is trying to make self-fullfilling prophecy. Will he succeed?

And! What has been fortold doesn't actually have to happen. PCs can try to avoid dangers, changing theirs fate.

oh come on thats jsut dumb, the oracle is only interested in making money if he had any goals he would have let Xykon in when he visited and gave him a fake prohecy to help himself like "you will not take over a gate until all of the OoTS are dead" or something like that


Actually, though I think that he's going to die, the "Not long for this world" quote was NOT given in the Oracle's prophetic trance mode. Therefore, it is fallible and not necessarily accurate.

oh come on hes still the oracle wether in or out of his trance mode, hes shown already that he can see the future without all the special effects i mean how would he have been able to avoid xykon if he needed his special trance and exact description to figure out whats going to happen? the trance is just to wow people and get a good chance to insult them before moving on

i dont see why people think belkar dieing is such a huge deal, id be surprised if Roy survives this quest when a story starts ending people start dieing rich has planned the story far enough ahead to start killing people off whenever its most story appropriate i wouldnt be surprised for roy to pull a kraagar

[Ezra_The_Mad]

Sigh. I suppose that this was just my way of projecting my desperate hope that my favorite character would live. What I will be interested in is HOW, exactly, he dies. Given Belkar's personality, and his "fake character development",
which is rapidly becoming real, I'd expect nothing less than him actually killing a main villain, like Redcloak. Of course, Xykon would raise Redcloak if he was killed, but the point would be that Belkar killed him.


To solve the "not long for this world", Belkar becomes the death knight guardian of Xykon's extraplanar Phylactery Phortress. But again, i'm grasping at straws.

[Ezra_The_Mad]

EDITED-Double post.

[Kish]

Actually, though I think that he's going to die, the "Not long for this world" quote was NOT given in the Oracle's prophetic trance mode. Therefore, it is fallible and not necessarily accurate.
Because any of the other casual references to futures the Oracle has made have proven false.

The green glowies mean that the Oracle meant for Roy to remember it. And they mean that Roy could go through the Memory Charm and remember it.

That is what they mean. They do not mean that the other ways the Oracle said "Belkar is going to die" are somehow invalid.

[Bulldog Psion]

oh come on hes still the oracle wether in or out of his trance mode, hes shown already that he can see the future without all the special effects i mean how would he have been able to avoid xykon if he needed his special trance and exact description to figure out whats going to happen? the trance is just to wow people and get a good chance to insult them before moving on



So you mean those idiotic things he said about Miko, the horse, etc. all had the force of prophecy, too? :smallconfused: Every word out of his mouth, even when he's obviously just messing with people -- "kill me if you like, but spare the ducky" -- has the force of prophecy, too? I call B.S. on that. The only things that must come true, IMO, are those things given in the prophetic trance. That's it.

To me, you're reaching just as much as the people on the opposite side who say that he'll just draw a picture of his last breath. You want so much for him to be permanently dead that you're ignoring the obvious, IMO. You're perfectly free to do so, of course, but I'm also perfectly free to think that you're wrong.

So far as I can see, the only prophecy is the oracular trance. That's the whole point of the memory charm, isn't it? People only remember the actual prophecy?

Yes, I agree he can see the future when not in the trance -- as with Xykon. But I also think he only needs to give an accurate prophecy when he's in the trance. He's free to lie, exaggerate, omit, and just shoot the breeze when he's out of it -- see also the 'Miko, Roy, Windstrider' bit.


Because any of the other casual references to futures the Oracle has made have proven false.

The green glowies mean that the Oracle meant for Roy to remember it. And they mean that Roy could go through the Memory Charm and remember it.

That is what they mean. They do not mean that the other ways the Oracle said "Belkar is going to die" are somehow invalid.

I didn't say they were invalid. I didn't say Belkar isn't going to die.

I said that the things not said in the oracular trance are not 100% certain to be true, like the things said in the trance are.

What you're saying I'm saying and what I'm actually saying are two different things, I'm afraid.

[Kish]

Yes, I agree he can see the future when not in the trance -- as with Xykon. But I also think he only needs to give an accurate prophecy when he's in the trance. He's free to lie, exaggerate, omit, and just shoot the breeze when he's out of it -- see also the 'Miko, Roy, Windstrider' bit.
If you're assuming the Oracle is lying, there is absolutely no reason not to cross off the "in the green glowies" prophecy too. Even if he can't just lie when in the green glowies (and I don't know how you'd support that), making it look like he's in the green glowies would be a very basic illusion, and we know he can use wands with far more powerful spells than that.

My belief that the Oracle is not lying, and that people who argue that the predictions (plural) of Belkar's death are lies are grasping at straws, in no way hinges on a belief that the Oracle couldn't lie. He just isn't, because he won't, because he's the sort of person who responds with the truth amplified with condescending snark even when a druid asks him if his wife has been cheating on him and the Oracle knows that the truth amplified with condescending snark is literally going to get him ripped limb from limb.


I didn't say they were invalid. I didn't say Belkar isn't going to die.

I said that the things not said in the oracular trance are not 100% certain to be true, like the things said in the trance are.

What you're saying I'm saying and what I'm actually saying are two different things, I'm afraid.
"Not a prophesy," "[not] the important part," "[don't] need to be accurate," vs. "invalid" looks to me like you're splitting hairs. The Oracle predicted Belkar's death when he first met Belkar. The Order forgot it because of the memory charm, but it is fully as much a prediction as what he eventually said in the green lights, and people who argue otherwise are not on solid ground at all.

[Incom]

Gee, it would be nice to have three incredibly powerful antagonists that just happen to be bound to the Lower Planes...

Belkar's going to die--legitimately--but it won't be the last we see of him in the comic.

[MReav]

He could be permanently trapped on the Astral Plane. He won't need to eat, breathe, he won't be on the world. Of course, he might still want to eat, because food tastes good, so he will have to be permanently restrained... possibly submerged underwater or some non-edible liquid (yes, on the Astral realm) so that if he breathes he'll start drowning.

Not that this is a happy fate for Belkar.

[Man on Fire]

General consensus says that Belkar will breathe his last very, very soon. Probably die some heroic death defending the gate. Alternately, he'll die like the mass-murdering lunatic he is. Potato, Po-tah-toh. But the wording of the Oracle's prediction is key-

"Belkar Bitterleaf will breathe his last within the year."

"Breathe his last" being the imperative words. My idea for how Rich would get around killing one of the most popular characters? See Monster Manual 2. Page 208.

The Death Knight template.

This technically follows the prediction, and also follows the idea of the Oracle's predictions only being true technically. He will have "breathed his last", as undead explicitly do not breathe, eat or sleep. One of the possible ways this might happen is Belkar dying fighting Xykon, who raises him as a Death Knight. We sort of hit a roadblock when you realize that this pretty much makes Belkar Rivendare unkillable by the Order currently- The Death Knight template carries a +5 LA, for good reason. Belkar would gain DR 15/+1, natural armor, all the immunities a lich has (Cold, electricity, polymorph), spell resistance up the yin-yang, turning immunity, and bonuses to Str, Wis, and Cha that might actually be enough to let him start casting as a Ranger of his level.

This might actually turn Belkar into a sort of secondary Dragon for Xykon, replacing Tsukiko.

I like that, but only if he will then betray Xykon and die to save the Order.

[terenes]

Thing is I don't see how it could be a self-fulfilling prophecy right now, as only Roy (and I think Haley) now about it.
It's very strong reason it can happen. Leader and his second in command can make decisions to sacrifrice Belkar in some situation because "he is going to die anyway".

[Kish]

It's very strong reason it can happen. Leader and his second in command can make decisions to sacrifrice Belkar in some situation because "he is going to die anyway".
So, presumably, the Oracle saw this plan working. In which case it is going to work, and Belkar is indeed going to die.

Or the Oracle saw it not working. In which case it makes no sense that the Oracle is trying at all.

Pick one.

[Caractacus]

It's very strong reason it can happen. Leader and his second in command can make decisions to sacrifrice Belkar in some situation because "he is going to die anyway".

This matches well with Roy's thinking, morality and what we have seen of him - yes...

Or... :smallsigh:

[Steward]

My belief that the Oracle is not lying, and that people who argue that the predictions (plural) of Belkar's death are lies are grasping at straws, in no way hinges on a belief that the Oracle couldn't lie. He just isn't, because he won't, because he's the sort of person who responds with the truth amplified with condescending snark even when a druid asks him if his wife has been cheating on him and the Oracle knows that the truth amplified with condescending snark is literally going to get him ripped limb from limb.

I agree that he's telling the truth about the Belkar prophecies (that is, he's going to die) and that he's generally honest, but I do think that he can lie or joke around when not making predicting.

[Winter]

I agree that he's telling the truth about the Belkar prophecies (that is, he's going to die) and that he's generally honest, but I do think that he can lie or joke around when not making predicting.

Yes, very obviously. Outside of his prophecies, he has shown he is quite some jerk.

[Winter Light]

Ah, but wait!

All you "Belkar are going to die" people assume that the oracle meant the Belkar in the Order of the Stick! But all we know is that a halfling named "Belkar" is going to die; it could easily be Belkar's father, Belkar Sr., or his cousin who shares a name with him, or any halfling named Belkar, who isn't part of the Order of the Stick.

The alternative--that Belkar's just going to die after having it foreshadowed for more than 500 strips--is entirely unrealistic and doesn't strike me as very plausible or good storytelling.

[JSSheridan]

We're never truly dead until we're forgotten.

[NerfTW]

My idea for how Rich would get around killing one of the most popular characters? See Monster Manual 2. Page 208.


He doesn't need to get around it. The strip is nearing the end game. We can be expecting the end of the strip in one or two books after this current one. (Which is almost done with)

I don't think people are going to suddenly stop reading the comic at this point, 7 years into an epic story, because one character died near the end.

The comic isn't going to go on forever. It has an end point and we're fast approaching it. We're at the second to last gate right now.



Belkar Rivendare

Bitterleaf. Belkar Bitterleaf.

[Steward]

He doesn't need to get around it. The strip is nearing the end game. We can be expecting the end of the strip in one or two books after this current one. (Which is almost done with)

I don't think people are going to suddenly stop reading the comic at this point, 7 years into an epic story, because one character died near the end.

The comic isn't going to go on forever. It has an end point and we're fast approaching it. We're at the second to last gate right now.



Bitterleaf. Belkar Bitterleaf.

Wait, does anyone remember which strip the prophecy was in? If the prophecy specifies Belkar Rivendare and not Bitterleaf, it looks like the Order's Belkar has just found his reprieve!

[Kish]

"Belkar Rivendare" is a reference to Baron Rivendare, a death knight from World of Warcraft.

The Oracle has predicted the death, cessation of breathing, lack of future birthday cake, and pointlessness of IRA-funding of Belkar, The Halfling, and Your Friend.

[ti'esar]

Why do so many people seem to think Rich wants to "get out" of killing off Belkar anyway? :smallconfused:

[MReav]

Why do so many people seem to think Rich wants to "get out" of killing off Belkar anyway? :smallconfused:

I think we're so used to the notion of the subverted prophecy that we are no longer capable of thinking that oracles can be straightforward.

[kickassfrog]

General consensus says that Belkar will breathe his last very, very soon. Probably die some heroic death defending the gate. Alternately, he'll die like the mass-murdering lunatic he is. Potato, Po-tah-toh. But the wording of the Oracle's prediction is key-

"Belkar Bitterleaf will breathe his last within the year."

"Breathe his last" being the imperative words. My idea for how Rich would get around killing one of the most popular characters? See Monster Manual 2. Page 208.

The Giant is the one who wrote Belkar was going to die. It seems if he wanted to leave a loophole, he would have done.

Incidentally, the oracles next appearance could be 3 strips of him repeating every euphemism in month python's dead parrot sketch, and people would still predict he'd survive.

Belkar will cease to be. He will be no more. He will croak, kick the bucket, run down the choir and join the chorus invisible. He will be pushing up daisies. He will be an ex-Belkar. Belkar. Is. Going. To. Die.

[Winter]

I think that is not really disputed.

The problem is people are trying to find a loophole so he can come back, in whatever form.

[Raven777]

I do not contest that Belkar will inevitably die in accordance to the prophecy, but wouldn't the Order be compelled to seek to Resurrect him afterward, especially if he dies in some heroic sacrifice furthering the group's goal? He's part of the team. I mean, I played with evil party members before, and every time party bonds trumped alignment when someone died.

The paladin was not going "This foul Sorcerer's death rids the world of a great evil!". He was going "We need to pool 25,000gp to rezz Kazh, here's what I have".

[Cynric]

I don't think he's going to "just die". I mean, if he did it would have been far more dramatic to not give a premonition in the first place. Why ruin the shock and surprise of one of the major characters been unexpectedly off'd?

My theory is that he will meet Tsukiko in the Evil afterlife and learn of Redcloak's master plan. How that could pan out further I couldn't say, but it's my guess.

[saltysugar96]

party bonds trumped alignment when someone died.


This is assuming the members of OoTS have a bond with Belkar. This strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html), seems to say otherwise. Roy even says that when Belkar dies, he will be someone else's problem. So no, I really doubt there will be a rezz in Belkar's future, at least not one paid for by OoTS.


The paladin was not going "This foul Sorcerer's death rids the world of a great evil!". He was going "We need to pool 25,000gp to rezz Kazh, here's what I have".


Aren't paladins bared from even adventuring with evil aligned characters? You certainly could have just house ruled that away, but still seems like a weird example of your point.

[Winter]

The paladin was not going "This foul Sorcerer's death rids the world of a great evil!". He was going "We need to pool 25,000gp to rezz Kazh, here's what I have".

What one player does is no proof for anything. He might even have played a paladin in the "wrong" way (or the DM might have handled it "wrongly"). I'm not saying this is what happend, but it could be.
Your claim there was once a party where this or that happened in some way is has no meaning at all as proof.

Talking about this is moot as it's really unlikely Durkon and Roy will get Belkar back. Roy even stated in-comic that he just keeps Belkar around until he was Death's problem. This does not sound like someone who is eager to get Belkar back.
And Lawful Good Durkon who loathes Belkar will not get him back on his own, the only person who could "make" him to it was Roy (and he won't).

[Forikroder]

The Giant is the one who wrote Belkar was going to die. It seems if he wanted to leave a loophole, he would have done.

Incidentally, the oracles next appearance could be 3 strips of him repeating every euphemism in month python's dead parrot sketch, and people would still predict he'd survive.

Belkar will cease to be. He will be no more. He will croak, kick the bucket, run down the choir and join the chorus invisible. He will be pushing up daisies. He will be an ex-Belkar. Belkar. Is. Going. To. Die.

obviosuly that just means hes going to be baleful polymorphed into a frog, kick a bucket at the caster and escape by burrowing under a daisy field where hell find a secret society of ghosts where hell chase down there choir before joining the chorus

[Steward]

I can't see the Order trying to bring Belkar back if he is killed before the end of the story.

To paraphrase Roy, traveling with Belkar is like traveling with syphilis. It can be done, for a while, but it's not easy or pretty. While Belkar is still alive, it's marginally better to keep him aimed at the forces of evil. Sending him to the Abyss would be an extension of that theme. At least there he can only hurt (other) demons.

[rewinn]

....Sending him to the Abyss would be an extension of that theme. At least there he can only hurt (other) demons.
...plus Belkar would have to WANT to come back.

If he dies heroically saving all existence from the Snarl (...or from Xykon controlling the Snarl...) and then ends up in a realm of endlessly killing things just to stay ... uhm, not "alive" but perhaps "intact" ... then what's the downside for him? Being returned to a life where he has to follow some sort of rules would actually be a punishment for him.

Unless Mr. Scruffy gets enough clerical levels to read a scroll of Resurrection. Belkar would come back for Mr. Scruffy!

[Forikroder]

...plus Belkar would have to WANT to come back.

If he dies heroically saving all existence from the Snarl (...or from Xykon controlling the Snarl...) and then ends up in a realm of endlessly killing things just to stay ... uhm, not "alive" but perhaps "intact" ... then what's the downside for him? Being returned to a life where he has to follow some sort of rules would actually be a punishment for him.

Unless Mr. Scruffy gets enough clerical levels to read a scroll of Resurrection. Belkar would come back for Mr. Scruffy!

when he almost got killed by Miko he did say he had planned to be killed because he knew Durkon was enough of a sucker to ressurect him so obviously if he gets ressurected hed be perfectly willing to come back, i mean earth is only temporary the more time you spend killing stuff on it the better you have all eternity to rampage on the abyss

[Steward]

That's an excellent point. Still, Belkar hasn't been to the Abyss yet. He might enjoy being a dretch or a rutterkin or even a mane, especially if he thinks he might get bumped up to hezrou or balor soon.

[RebelRogue]

The best argument against a silly loophole or a simple lie from the Oracle is that it would be awfully bad storytelling: Rich is way too good to do something like that.

[Chessgeek]

I think we're so used to the notion of the subverted prophecy that we are no longer capable of thinking that oracles can be straightforward.

This.
This is the mistake I made when I first joined the forums.
Rich's Oracle is perhaps the only oracle I know of that has been quite so straightforward and correct.
(Although he has his moments of indirectness, there is no vagueness in the Belkar prophecy. The Oracle really made this one plain as day.)

Side Note: I think Rich dies a little inside every time he sees something like this.

[Ted The Bug]

Read everything the Oracle has said. Then read it again. There is nothing - not a single word - that disproves the theory that Belkar will be turned into a magical talking banana. Since magical talking bananas don't need to breathe in order to speak, there is literally no way to disprove the MTB theory incorrect until OotS comes to an end.

Yet is there much of a chance of that happening? No. At least, I hope not. Once you get into the realm of "nothing disproves my argument," you can pretty much say anything. For instance, it is impossible to disprove that Tsukiko will not be resurrected at some point by Durkon in exchange for a glass of beer. That doesn't make it at all likely.

[Murray]

I'm holding out that Belkar ends up as chairman or other high-level executive of the IFCC. Seems more interesting and plot-relevant than the death knight or talking banana solutions.

:belkar: "Since I'm an 'executive' now, does that mean I get to-"

:roy: "No."

[Niknokitueu]

Read everything the Oracle has said. Then read it again. There is nothing - not a single word - that disproves the theory that Belkar will be turned into a magical talking banana. Since magical talking bananas don't need to breathe in order to speak, there is literally no way to disprove the MTB theory incorrect until OotS comes to an end.

Yet is there much of a chance of that happening? No. At least, I hope not. Once you get into the realm of "nothing disproves my argument," you can pretty much say anything. For instance, it is impossible to disprove that Tsukiko will not be resurrected at some point by Durkon in exchange for a glass of beer. That doesn't make it at all likely.
...And we again have the thread winner.

Belkar will die. Cease to be. He will expire and go to meet his maker. He will be a stiff. Bereft of life, he will rest in peace... His metabolic processes will be history. He will be off the twig, kick the bucket, shuffle of this mortal coil, run down the curtain and join the beedin' choir invisible. He Will Be An Ex-Belkar! (http://www.mtholyoke.edu/~ebarnes/python/dead-parrot.htm)

So I say that the next time someone makes a thread showing how Belkar can survive, point them at that reply. Hopefully the phallacy of their arguments will become apparent.

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

[Grail]

Belkar will be unmade by the Snarl, 1 atom at a time.
His last words will be "Aw crap"

[rgrekejin]

So I say that the next time someone makes a thread showing how Belkar can survive, point them at that reply. Hopefully the phallacy of their arguments will become apparent.

...dear lord, I hope you mean fallacy. Otherwise... ick.

[137beth]

Rich has had this story planned out for a long, long time. He decided what the Oracle was going to say. If he didn't want to kill of Belkar, why would he have said it?

Simple as that :smallsmile:

Well, maybe he didn't want to kill Belkar, but had the oracle say it so that fans would argue about if/how/when Belkar would die for the next couple years:smalltongue:

[Winter]

Well, maybe he didn't want to kill Belkar, but had the oracle say it so that fans would argue about if/how/when Belkar would die for the next couple years:smalltongue:

So, and how would he conclude then in-comic when it nears the end? You are proposing that the author would ruin a part of his work to have some sort of cheap laugh for himself?
(And yes, I saw the smiley)

[Turgon9357]

How will Belkar "survive"? He won't. Next question?

How will he die?

I would like to see it play out like V's (not :vaarsuvius:, the other one) death. Tarquin said he would have soldiers ready to secure the area. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0822.html) T orders his men to fire on Belkar for whatever reason, Belkar gets turned into cheese, he and Mr. Scruffy kill all of the mooks.

[Zarzar]

I assume that Belk's not going to be able to be rezzed (likely due to Snarl/Rift death). I am assuming that Kraagor couldn't be rezzed due to his death by Snarl, and I expect that Dorukan/Lirian/Girard/Serini would have tried almost anything to get him back (short of sacrificing Soon, but I guess that Girard might have tried that too).

I assume the drama will be more emphasized in the fact that Belkar might actually have some inverse character faux-growth. He'll realize how much of a **** he's been, then *poof*, he hits -10.

[newBlazingAngel]

This is OoTS we're talking about here. Their HAS to be some twist to this. Saying that Belkar is going to die and just offing is far too expected.

[King of Nowhere]

Belkar will survive.

In our hearts.
In our minds.
In the online archives.
In print.

I don't expect him to survive in any other way

[137beth]

So, and how would he conclude then in-comic when it nears the end? You are proposing that the author would ruin a part of his work to have some sort of cheap laugh for himself?
(And yes, I saw the smiley)

I'm not going to propose an in-comic way for him to survive, as there are 230987230597 competing theories on that. Nor am I even going to propose that he will survive. However, one question raised by the pro-Belkar-survival was why the Giant would forshadow something obvious (since Belkar's death really is obvious). And my answer is that the Giant told us exactly what was going to happen (i.e.: Belkar will die, period,) so that he could laugh at us arguing for the next few years about how there is some imagined loop-hole in the oracle's direct statement.

[Winter]

This is OoTS we're talking about here. Their HAS to be some twist to this. Saying that Belkar is going to die and just offing is far too expected.

Then I fear you will be disappointed: That is exactly what is going to happen.

[runeghost]

While I have no doubt that Belkar is going to bite it, probably in the near future, I don't think that's the last we'll see of him. Between the IFCC, Sabine, Quarl, and the deal for V's soul, there seems to be an awful lot of plot going on in the evil part of the afterlife. My money is on Belkar having some effect on the outcome of the plot, even post-death.

[Talya]

It's a good catch, but... why do you think Rich wants to 'get around' anything?

Rich has had this story planned out for a long, long time. He decided what the Oracle was going to say. If he didn't want to kill of Belkar, why would he have said it?


Because subverting prophecies while fulfilling them is fun. (And if done well, superb storytelling.)

[Bulldog Psion]

Because subverting prophecies while fulfilling them is fun. (And if done well, superb storytelling.)

He's dead, Jim. No outs, no reprieves, no twists. That in itself would be a twist after all these futile quests for twists. He may appear briefly in the Afterlife -- but then again, he may not. Many have died, and the only afterlife we've seen is Roy's.

And if the Snarl offs him, then we'll be spared any further appearances of the little wretch. :smallamused: That would probably be the best way to bring home how high the stakes are for the Order and the world -- to have a major character just gone in an instant. No body, no soul, no Afterlife -- utter annihilation. And since Belkar's sure to bite it soon, what better candidate for Snarl erasure?

[Forikroder]

He's dead, Jim. No outs, no reprieves, no twists. That in itself would be a twist after all these futile quests for twists. He may appear briefly in the Afterlife -- but then again, he may not. Many have died, and the only afterlife we've seen is Roy's.

And if the Snarl offs him, then we'll be spared any further appearances of the little wretch. :smallamused: That would probably be the best way to bring home how high the stakes are for the Order and the world -- to have a major character just gone in an instant. No body, no soul, no Afterlife -- utter annihilation. And since Belkar's sure to bite it soon, what better candidate for Snarl erasure?

its conceivable but i doubt it because:

1) it would be very hard to have Belkar get killed by the Snarl and not go down a Martyr, what would he be doing hanging around an open rift if not to protect someone? since the giant purposely hasnt shown us his past so people dont start thinking of him as a tragic hero i find it unlikely hell get such a noble end

2) why is the OoTS even near an open rift? if a rift opens theyre job is to move on to the next one theres no benefit to hanging around the rift

3) im not convinced the snarl even still exists considering Azure City i think all the time its spent in its prison it unsnarled itself

[Chessgeek]

Unsnarling is my new favorite word.

[Bulldog Psion]

Well, since that seems logical, that pretty much leaves him with damnation. Hopefully, it'll be almost the same as the Snarl erasure -- seeing his soul tip wide eyed into a fiery pit, and that's his last appearance in the comic.

[Chessgeek]

You know Bulldog Psion, I'm starting to get a bit of a vibe from you...
Do you not like Belkar?

[Bulldog Psion]

You know Bulldog, I'm starting to get a bit of a vibe from you...
Do you not like Belkar?

Well, I liked him up until Greysky City. For whatever reason, I can't stand him since the Mark of Justice was removed.

Edit: by the way, just out of curiosity, is there any particular reason why your text is green? If you don't mind my asking.

[Forikroder]

Well, I liked him up until Greysky City. For whatever reason, I can't stand him since the Mark of Justice was removed.

Edit: by the way, just out of curiosity, is there any particular reason why your text is green? If you don't mind my asking.

its a real stumper...

i think Belkar will go down kinda like in Azure city after he jumped of the walls but not surviving this time possibly either A) trying (probably failing) to save Mr. Scruffy B) in an attempt to avenge Mr. Scruffy or C) along with Mr. Scruffy for some reason

[Chessgeek]

by the way, just out of curiosity, is there any particular reason why your text is green? If you don't mind my asking.

Haha:smallbiggrin:.
I think your being serious here? Don't worry. If you read enough of my posts you'll eventually figure it out:smallwink:.
(Here, have a hint (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13314719#post13314719).)

[Bulldog Psion]

Haha:smallbiggrin:.
I think your being serious here? Don't worry. If you read enough of my posts you'll eventually figure it out:smallwink:.
(Here, have a hint (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13314719#post13314719).)

Green = tongue in cheek? :smallwink:

[Chessgeek]

Green = tongue in cheek? :smallwink:

Bingo! We have a winner!:smallbiggrin:

[Bulldog Psion]

Bingo! We have a winner!:smallbiggrin:

Maybe I should have read your signature. :smallredface:

Nah, that's too easy. Druids always pick the hard way; it encourages natural selection. :smallbiggrin:

[lio45]

Belkar will survive.

In our hearts.
In our minds.
In the online archives.
In print.

I don't expect him to survive in any other way

I do. He'll live forever on these boards as well. :belkar:


(Unless the Forum Admin / staff decides otherwise.)

[Gusion]

Belkar "survives" by falling through the rift to the other world. (See episode #672.)

He is therefore gone from this world - forever - and even beyond the capability of a "wish" to bring him back.

However, he isn't dead. Maybe we will get a cut-away with Belkar in it on the other world... maybe not. My guess is Giant will leave it unanswered just to mess with people.

[Bulldog Psion]

Belkar "survives" by falling through the rift to the other world. (See episode #672.)

He is therefore gone from this world - forever - and even beyond the capability of a "wish" to bring him back.

However, he isn't dead. Maybe we will get a cut-away with Belkar in it on the other world... maybe not. My guess is Giant will leave it unanswered just to mess with people.

That's possible as long as he's also undead on the other world. Otherwise, no dice.

[Gusion]

That's possible as long as he's also undead on the other world. Otherwise, no dice.

Or becomes a construct, I suppose.

Or, I still maintain that a name change would technically fulfill the prophecy.

Or maybe it is a combination - perhaps by falling into the rift Belkar is no longer Belkar but takes on an entire new identity as a result of leaving the universe.

[newBlazingAngel]

Or maybe it is a combination - perhaps by falling into the rift Belkar is no longer Belkar but takes on an entire new identity as a result of leaving the universe.

What if he takes on a new identity, period. He is no longer Belkar Bitterlead, he is now and forever the medium sized guy in a blue, face obscuring cloak.

[Ulysses WkAmil]

Whitness protection program. Thought of it after strip 813. Belkar may be gone, but Shmelkar could still exist.

[Kish]

And he'll no longer be a halfling or whatever the Oracle considers to be Roy's friend!

[Peelee]

Clearly, Belkar's personality and name will change after polymorphing into a different race. So Belkar Bitterleaf, the evil and sadistic halfling, escapes death by becoming Tordok Stilliving, the lawful neutral gnome.

It appears half the forum is already going through the first stage of grieving for the Belkster, and are firmly rooted in denial.

[Bulldog Psion]

[voice of sanity] He's dead and damned. [/voice of sanity]

[SSGoW]

It's very strong reason it can happen. Leader and his second in command can make decisions to sacrifrice Belkar in some situation because "he is going to die anyway".

And this is how the Oracle gets back at Belkar. The Oracle fakes a trance and all that good stuff and says "Belkar will die" knowing dang well that the party will be in a dangerous situation. Thus the party thinks "well we can sacrifice him since it really won't change much.. he is going to die anyways". In reality Belkar has no death looming over him BUT because the party thinks he does they might do things that put him in a greater risk.

Though I would just like to see the party leave Belkar on the Astral Plane, knowing he has a very small chance of ever putting anyone in danger again (at least on the material plane). I don't think Xykon will feel like being a taxi or even go back to the Phortress.

Talk about pissing off Belkar... He doesn't even get his awesome death that he would expect.

[Peelee]

And this is how the Oracle gets back at Belkar.


WHY would the oracle want to "get back at" Belkar? Yes, Belkar killed him. As the Oracle predicted. If the Oracle had given Belkar his refund, Belkar wouldn't have killed him. He killed the Oracle because of all the stretchy answers the Oracle gave. Which the Oracle had foreseen. He is, after all, an Oracle! He just tells the future, and has yet to be wrong. If he says, in several different ways, that Belkar will die, why would you imagine the Oracle is getting back at Belkar instead of just, you know, Oracling?

[SSGoW]

WHY would the oracle want to "get back at" Belkar? Yes, Belkar killed him. As the Oracle predicted. If the Oracle had given Belkar his refund, Belkar wouldn't have killed him. He killed the Oracle because of all the stretchy answers the Oracle gave. Which the Oracle had foreseen. He is, after all, an Oracle! He just tells the future, and has yet to be wrong. If he says, in several different ways, that Belkar will die, why would you imagine the Oracle is getting back at Belkar instead of just, you know, Oracling?

Because belkar has killed countless kobolds that didn't always deserv the death they got?

Sure the Oracdle could attack the party but he is an Oracle not a "fighter" and no ammount of foresight can see everything (cause fate may not really exist... Just cause and effect).

Maybe cause thwe Oracle is just as racist against halflings as Belkar is against Kobolds?

[Peelee]

Because belkar has killed countless kobolds that didn't always deserv the death they got?

Sure the Oracdle could attack the party but he is an Oracle not a "fighter" and no ammount of foresight can see everything (cause fate may not really exist... Just cause and effect).

Maybe cause thwe Oracle is just as racist against halflings as Belkar is against Kobolds?

So vague possibilities that haven't even been so much as hinted at count for at least as much as a straightforward prophecy now?

[Kish]

I have no problem with the idea that the Oracle could prefer Belkar dead to alive.

I do have a problem with the idea that the Oracle could predict, "This will kill Belkar," attempt This, and have Belkar not die. Not that the Oracle is omnipotent or omniscient, but if he's trying at all, presumably he foresaw success, not failure. If the Oracle would have made a different prophecy if the thought of Belkar dead caused him any emotion south of glee...the one he made is still a genuine prophecy.

[SSGoW]

So vague possibilities that haven't even been so much as hinted at count for at least as much as a straightforward prophecy now?

When has the Oracle ever been straight forward? Also Belkar dulled his knife to make it hurt more, I bet the Oracle didn't like that one bit.

I'm not saying Belkar will or will not die. Or that I want him to or not.

What I'm saying is that the Oracle lied about his vision of Belkar's future so that his death would be more likely to happen (his allies won't try to save him as much if they think he is doomed anyways).

Actually I do hope that he dies but in such a way that it shakes the rest of the party to their Core. As in it was such a nice/brave/wonderful thing that they want to bring him back but for some reason they can't.

[Peelee]

I have no problem with the idea that the Oracle could prefer Belkar dead to alive.

I do have a problem with the idea that the Oracle could predict, "This will kill Belkar," attempt This, and have Belkar not die. Not that the Oracle is omnipotent or omniscient, but if he's trying at all, presumably he foresaw success, not failure. If the Oracle would have made a different prophecy if the thought of Belkar dead caused him any emotion south of glee...the one he made is still a genuine prophecy.

Agreed on all points but the first (which is really subjective at the moment, anyway, so it's all just opinion-based).

I don't see why the Oracle would have it out for Belkar. He apparently is no stranger to death, and plans far in advance for it. Granted, yes, he probably doesn't hold any special favor for those who do kill him, he's probably not deliberately antagonistic to the point of trying to influence events to culminate in their deaths as well. But again, this is all pure opinion-based, and neither of us can really be wrong unless Giant decides to cut in.

The rest of it, though, yes. Couldn't agree more.