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View Full Version : Varying my NPCs, interesting player choices, and general second session as a DM post.



NOhara24
2012-04-22, 02:55 AM
AUGUST RAVENWOOD - This post is about you. I know you're on this forum. I ask that you not read this thread and make sure that you double-check the pre-reqs for the feats that you eventually choose. See you next session :smallsmile:


Alright, today marked my second session as a DM. I've got a couple issues I want to work out, and one that I want the playground's opinion on.

My own issues - I feel like my NPCs aren't really that varied as far as personality goes, granted the players have been dealing with the "town guard type" the majority of the time. However, this is set to change very soon and I wish to have some tips as to how to vary the character for my NPCs. Not so much their intended attitude and such, but how to remind myself to get away from the default hard-assed town guard persona.

Dealing with my player(s) - One player in particular. He's a rogue, and even though I've banned the CN(S) alignment for the following reason, he's still very much leaning toward Chaotic Stupid. For example, this session:

The party had come upon their destination, a small resort town on the sea. They walk through the active open-air market, and are generally looking around at the various shops and observing the townsfolk. I describe the following individual. "You see an old man in a cloak with 7 canaries sittting on his shoulders." and intend on continuing to describe other persons of note before I can start again:

"I attack him."

I asked him, "Are you sure?" which was already too big of a red flag in and of itself. I didn't want to say "No, you don't." as that would break the illusion, figuring I would sort his actions out later. He then said "I'm thinking about it.":smallfurious: I had him make a will save, figuring that if he rolled 10 or better (his save included) he could have abstained.

Natural 7. He was almost happy that he failed his save. So he lunges at one of the canaries at the old man's shoulder. Boom. He's pinned by a large gold dragon and the calm open-air market has descended into madness. Anyone who has read about the gods in D&D 3.5 know who he just attacked. Long story short, I figured I had to give him a slap on the wrist for acting as he did, and this is what I decided on:

*I had the Captain of the Town Guard remove all gold he was carrying. (2K GP or so)
*He now owes a favor to the Captain of the Guard. (A bounty head which he will receive no pay for - 1K GP)
*And he was excluded for the party's "payday" tonight. (1100 GP or so)

I figured it wasn't entirely unreasonable to fine him a few thousand gold for one count of attempted murder and one count of resisting arrest. It was either that or have had the Dragon burn him to a crisp in the Market :smallcool:

So, playground. What say you concerning tonight's events?

Vitruviansquid
2012-04-22, 04:10 AM
1. Try speaking as each NPC in a different accent. It might sound silly, but it definitely helps me lock myself, as it were, in a different personality whenever I switch to a different accent. You would also feel quite silly saying something a hard-bitten guard would say in a prissy falsetto.

2. It seems to me that people want to play Chaotic Stupid characters for two reasons - 1. the character they imagine is actually like this, and 2. they have some reason to try to break the game, and the Chaotic alignment gives them an excuse to do this. Now, I'm not saying you should charge out the gate accusing people of things, but I would try and get a sense of the Chaotic Stupid player's intentions. If it really bothers you, you might want to bring to the offending player's attention that your rule was intended to ban his type of character the entire time, and that he should probably roll a new dude.

W3bDragon
2012-04-22, 04:51 AM
The biggest breakthrough for me in varying my NPCs came from the realization that people are not their jobs. Just because the NPC is a town guard, doesn't mean his job will be the main inspiration for his personality.

To make your life easier, search for a list of character traits. Something like this (http://cte.jhu.edu/techacademy/web/2000/kochan/charactertraits.html) would do. Print it out and keep it nearby. Whenever you want to introduce a new NPC, just pick one at random and portray it. Random NPCs don't really need deep backgrounds. Just pick one trait and run with it.

Example:

PCs run into three guards holding a prisoner. You pick traits randomly for them and get the following:

Guard 1: Impatient
Guard 2: Gullible
Guard 3: Easy Going
Prisoner: Haughty

All of a sudden, the interaction with this set of NPCs is going to be very memorable, because none of them act the way the PCs expect them to. One guard is urging the others to ignore the PCs and keep moving (impatient), the other is chatting with the PCs and gossiping about rumors on the street (easy going) and the third bobs his head at every over the top lie or excuse the PCs give (gullible). The Prisoner on the other hand is very offended by the whole thing and demands that the guards give him the attention a criminal of his stature deserves lest he make fools of them by escaping! (haughty).

As for your second problem, I would've simply asked the player to explain WHY his character is attacking this NPC. His character has a background? An alignment? A brain? Well then he should be able to supply a plausible line of reasoning as to why his character is attacking this NPC.

Hopefully he realizes that he can't really justify the action and abstains. If he can justify it, or doesn't care and wants to do it anyway, then I suggest you pause again and explain to the player. "You are about to attempt to murder someone in cold blood in the middle of the market. This will have dire consequences. Do you understand?" If he says "Yes" and wants to go ahead anyway, then let things play out as you see fit. Don't coddle him. Fining him some gold for attempting to murder a deity is really letting him off easy, regardless of whether he knew who he was attacking or not.

At the very least, I would suggest the one he attacked placing a Geas on him that forces him to do no harm to anyone unless he's attacked first.

I can't really say I approve of this whole will save business. Either he attacks or he doesn't attack. In both cases he should have nothing to blame but himself.

Once all is said and done, chat with the player after the session and find out if he's bored or what? Randomly attacking NPCs is a sure sign that something is wrong. Either the player is not the right fit for your group or something is bothering him. You need to fix this out of the game lest it not keep spilling back into the game like it just did.

NOhara24
2012-04-22, 05:45 AM
-snip-

I'll definitely try the accent thing, maybe a d100 table for accents? I think so.

And that's a good point - this IS what I was trying to avoid the whole time. I entirely understand people being slightly ridiculous for the sake of humor, but this is just too far. If it happens again, (which it likely will) I'll deal with it then. I'm hoping that him realizing that his actions have consequences will prevent him from acting this way again.


-snip-

It seems that these tables are going to be my savior, I thank you for this. The most simple ideas seem to work best.

And yes, the second issue. Looking back on it, rolling a will save wasn't the best option. But when a character attacks what was supposed to be a neat easter egg to be revealed later in the game, you sort of panic. Like I said before, I DID want to avoid breaking the illusion. However it's become apparent that keeping CS characters out of the game is more important than maintaining the illusion - or possibly one is a better method of accomplishing the matter.

I'll deal with it in a more upfront manner the next time it happens. He's playing the typical rogue - mind on my money, money on my mind sort of stereotypical rogue. I'm HOPING that after this he realizes that he can't act without regard for his own actions without consequences anymore. But we'll see.

I do believe that all of my players are having fun, I've asked them multiple times and the answer has always been a resounding "yes". I think that this sort of behavior stems from his understanding of the class, which is basically "cause mischief and steal things". I'll address this as well, as we all know "causing mischief" is very different from "Causing a deity's personal guard to reveal himself in the middle of hundreds of people because you tried to kill him."

Kuma Kode
2012-04-22, 06:05 AM
For characters, I like going through Ash's Guide to RPG Personality and Background (http://rpg.ashami.com/), which offers a framework for traits that work as a good scratch sheet for characters. Nameless NPCs can do with just a primary motivation, which can help you make a character interesting. It even has tables for randomly generating them, so you can quickly figure out not just some random trait, but what these guards want in life.

On the topic of CN characters doing stupid things, banning alignments isn't going to work. Obviously, they'll still play Chaotic Stupid, they'll just call it something else. The easiest and best solution, at least to start, is to talk to them. Tell them that kind of behavior isn't going to make the game any more fun for anyone. If they want to continue, you'll need to find some other solution. This might be to remove them from the game.

Saying "No, you don't." should have been the reaction to "I attack him," in my opinion. If a player has some kind of reason for doing something, taking away their control of their character is a big no-no, but if they're just trying to be random after you specifically said random behavior is not desired, you're perfectly within your rights to say "No." Nothing would spiral out of control, no plots would be spoiled, and the player wouldn't be left feeling punished and possibly spiteful. If the player feels slighted, it might encourage the behavior to become more and more elaborate in an attempt to one-up you. By allowing it to occur, and then reacting to it in-game, you're creating a stupid behavior arms race.

TheDarkSaint
2012-04-22, 01:40 PM
I fully allow Chaotic Stupid and Evil in my games. I give them one warning at the beginning of character creation process. I tell them "You are free to be as evil as you like, but be prepared to face consequences of actions"

Town guards tend not to hold back against someone going on a murder spree. It's the middle ages. Screw the courts, they will slaughter the guy and not think too much about it.

It typically takes about 2 characters going through messy deaths before they get the idea and either quit or get gun-shy about attacking NPCs.

Either way, we're back to being awesome.

Now, I've had some players get sneaky and become serial killers who hid their crimes, joined up with the party and hunted for the killers. Those made great adventures. :) But, it was far more role playing based.

Hyudra
2012-04-22, 03:12 PM
Just give each NPC something unique enough to make them stand out, even to yourself. If the PCs show interest, give the NPC another trait or an extension of the pre-existing trait, which can branch into further possibilities.

I find it's often good, if you plan to reuse an NPC, to give them something that someone wouldn't expect. Go against the common trend.

ie. Natalia is a captain of a squad of town guards. She wears glasses and is surprisingly soft spoken given her profession. PCs show interest in the character? Natalia loves books and has always dreamed of being a librarian. So why doesn't she do that? Her little brother is sick, they have no parents, and being a town guard is the only thing that pays enough for the medicine.

And boom, interesting character that they're probably going to remember. Two possible plot hooks if the PCs show further interest: Her desperation for money may pave the way for corruption, or allegations thereof. Her brother's illness could also open up possiblilities in terms of needed medical supplies (bandits have waylaid a wagon train with the latest shipment, a herb in the woods is needed, a snake oil salesman or cultist lures her in and cons her out of cash/her mortal soul, etc, etc.)

Some more for town guards:
Max is a guard, and he's from the town's most well-to-do family (perhaps the mayor's son). He doesn't want to be part of the upper crust, and joining the guard was a kind of rebellion. Now he's doing everything he can to be unprofessional so his father can't pull strings or call in favors to raise him in the guard's ranks.
Petir is a guard, and he's a half-orc. Contrary to expectations, he's well groomed and very well spoken. His gear is in better condition than anyone else's. His real hot button is the treatment & predjudice towards half orcs, and he'll often devote extra time to visiting the local half orcs (or those living just out of town) to ensure there's no trouble.
Thom is fairly bland in looks, with only a thin, oiled mustache to set him apart. He's professional, courteous, and will go out of his way to ensure that the local adventurers are comfortable. When encountering a halfling, however, he's as racist and prejudiced as they come. It's not uncommon for him to plant stolen goods on a halfling's person just to have cause for arrest.

Man on Fire
2012-04-22, 07:36 PM
My own issues - I feel like my NPCs aren't really that varied as far as personality goes, granted the players have been dealing with the "town guard type" the majority of the time. However, this is set to change very soon and I wish to have some tips as to how to vary the character for my NPCs. Not so much their intended attitude and such, but how to remind myself to get away from the default hard-assed town guard persona.

Think how would a type of person who NPC is react to the type of person character is. Like, if your character is a soldier, other soldiers should be friendly to him and invite him for a beer, nobles should look down on him and bosman in the port is ging to tell him how he always respected the military. That sort of thing.

Oracle_Hunter
2012-04-24, 08:36 AM
The party had come upon their destination, a small resort town on the sea. They walk through the active open-air market, and are generally looking around at the various shops and observing the townsfolk. I describe the following individual. "You see an old man in a cloak with 7 canaries sittting on his shoulders." and intend on continuing to describe other persons of note before I can start again:

"I attack him."
This is a red flag on the Player. You need to speak with him OOC as to why he is acting this way. My intuition is that he is a Story Breaker Player -- he saw someone he knew he wasn't supposed to attack (i.e. an obvious god in disguise) and therefore attacked him just to throw a wrench into your story. This is an unhealthy approach to gaming and, if that is actually what he wants out of a game, you should tell him:

(1) You would prefer that he found something else entertaining about RPing and if he has something in mind to tell you and
(2) If Story Breaking is the only way he'll have fun, it'd be better for him not to be in your game.

As an aside -- this is exactly why I keep "Gods in Sheep Clothing" out of my games. Even the least disruptive Player is going to feel an almost irresistible surge to punch Eliminister in the face if he comes around. There is seldom anything to be gained (story-wise) by including such elements and their inclusion does tend to spark Players to go a little bit crazy.

Sajach
2012-04-25, 06:22 PM
1. Try to keep them on there toes about attacking random npcs,considering the fact that the last time they tried that one of them nearly got grilled your well on your way.
2. Use the table for "fleshing out npcs" on page 128 in the dms guide. (at least it's their for 3.5)

KillianHawkeye
2012-04-27, 05:33 PM
And yes, the second issue. Looking back on it, rolling a will save wasn't the best option. But when a character attacks what was supposed to be a neat easter egg to be revealed later in the game, you sort of panic. Like I said before, I DID want to avoid breaking the illusion. However it's become apparent that keeping CS characters out of the game is more important than maintaining the illusion - or possibly one is a better method of accomplishing the matter.

I'll deal with it in a more upfront manner the next time it happens. He's playing the typical rogue - mind on my money, money on my mind sort of stereotypical rogue. I'm HOPING that after this he realizes that he can't act without regard for his own actions without consequences anymore. But we'll see.

Yeah, this almost happened to me when I had Bahamut pay a social call to the party (although in that case, he was disguised as a shepard with 7 sheep). Fortunately, the party was able to talk the Barbarian out of trying to cook a mutton dinner. :smallamused:


My advice:

A) When something like that happens, say "Let me finish describing the scene and then you can tell me what you want to do." Then ask all the other players their actions before getting back to the interrupting troublemaker. If he really wants to attack somebody for no reason, change his alignment to Evil, because non-Evil people don't do that. Or have something random cause a ruckus and grab everyone's attention, such as town guards chasing a pickpocket through the market.

B) A LG great wyrm gold dragon has a lot of ways to deal with a mischievous upstart than just scorching him to cinders. Their secondary breath weapon deals 12 points of Strength damage unless your PCs can make a DC 41 Fort save. It also casts spells as a 19th level Sorcerer with access to the full Cleric spell list in addition to their normal spell choices. It has a grapple modifier of +75 in it's natural form.

C) Bahamut is a deity. His skill bonuses are amazingly good, and he can see everything. He will not be surprised by any attack. He doesn't automatically win initiative, but there isn't really much a mortal can do to him and everything that he can do to a mortal. He can easily defend himself. For example, he has Sanctuary as an at-will SLA. One DC 33 Will save later and any attack against him is quietly foiled without any overt display of power. Or he could cast a spell such as Feeblemind, Force Cage, or Maze to incapacitate the attacker. And that's not even getting to his Cleric spells or his divine abilities!

So I guess my point is that if you're going to include a powerful NPC such as a deity, have some idea what they'd do if they were randomly attacked. Because in all likelihood, there's a real chance of that happening and you need to be prepared.

Jay R
2012-04-30, 09:56 AM
1. Give a specific face to each NPC. For a guard, use some authority figure - teacher, parent, policeman, officer, etc,. that you actually know. If you can't think of one, use a character from a book, TV show, or movie. Whenever you play that guard, ask yourself, "What would Ms. Smith do? While they are all authority figures, you will get different responses from Boromir, Commodore Norrington, Professor Snape, or Commissioner Gordon.

2. This character should be put to death for attempted murder. This would lead to rolling up a new character. Unfortunately, that won't solve the problem. You either need to teach this guy what D&D is, or roll up a new player. (Hi, August! I assume you're reading this.)

You tried to find a correct penalty for one incident. That's not the issue. The problem may be one of the player complete misunderstanding the game, or misunderstanding your world, or possibly your misunderstanding the character he wants to play.

You have to communicate to him that actions have consequences, and that society is real. A decision to attack a total stranger who has nothing obvious that you want isn't merely chaotic evil, it is beyond sanity. The character as played is a sociopath, that all decent people will want to destroy. Such a character cannot have any role in an actual simulated world other than a fugitive, fleeing from all people who have any interest in society working at all, including all members of any party of sane people.

He must completely change his approach, or his character will always be the person the entire party, as well as all organized bodies of people in the world, wish to hunt down and destroy.

He wasn't playing a rogue.
He wasn't playing a chaotic character.
He wasn't playing an evil character.
he wasn't playing a Chaotic Stupid character.
He was playing a mad dog.

Mad dogs get caught and put down.

This kind of character destroys any chance of interacting with society, except where he is not known at all.

There are video games in which the player only kills, not simulating any other behavior. If that's what he wants, get him out of D&D and back to his video game.