More Skills and Feats

[willpell]

Coming from a World of Darkness background as I do, I've found D&D frustrating as much as fascinating; I love the fantasy flavor, but I hate how the ironclad rules limit character development. My most persistent frustration comes up when I spend my Skill Points at every level, because every class seems to exclude several skills that seem very in-flavor, not necessarily for the class in general but for that particular character's interpretation of it. Wizards in general shouldn't have Intimidate, but certainly some specific wizards should be able to get more than 2 ranks in it; why is this only an option if they multiclass? That's just one of a hundred examples. And anyway, the number of skill points you get even as a Wizard, let alone something else that has x2 skill points but isn't powered by Intelligence, makes it very difficult to portray the character's personality through Skill choices.

I often try to alleviate the limits of Skills by taking the Feats which add skill bonuses, but this just adds another level of the same problem because Feats are so few and far between. I've debated allowing more feats in my game, but this offers too much possibility of broken cheese because there are so many kinds of feats with such varied mechanical effects (and just saying "you can take an extra feat but only one that gives a skill bonus" seems too ham-fisted for my taste, while even a restriction like "no metamagic, no ICFs, no Fighter Bonus feats" still leaves absurd things like Natural Spell in the mix).

So I'm torn as to how to make my game more interesting without making it more complicated, and allow for greater personalization without greater power. The book Complete Adventurer is supposed to be devoted to this topic but I haven't found time to do more than skim it, and what I've seen while skimming hasn't yet convinced me that a more concerted search of its contents would reward me with what I want. So I'm opening up the floor to discussion of how to make D&D a more "character-driven" game, with players able to choose Skills outside their class purview to focus in, take extra Feats which enhance their concept without really increasing their power or offering too many extra options, and otherwise make for a more creative, personal, and interesting game.

[Emperor Tippy]

Just add the feat Skilled

Skilled:
When taken this feat adds a single skill permanently to your class skills list and on every level up it increases your rank in the chosen skill by 1 point.

Note, this feat can be taken multiple times. Each time it applies to a different skill.

If you think it's too powerful then just strip out the rank increase and have it just add the skill to your class skills list.

[Omegas]

The system is not perfect. A lot was lost to what the writers assume to praise = "balance." Really the difference between low, mid, high, and epic characters is so night and day that I am sure it was migraine-inspiring to create a system where a mid level character could function around High level NPCs and low level anythings did not explode from shock.

It is taxing to make a character fall into the perspective you would like to see them as.

I have a friend right now that want to be a dagger Throw specialist. There are better ways to advance the fighter and it can be done. The thing is he is finding it undesirable to take the feats and invest where he needs to to make it happen.

[Kol Korran]

The system does leave a lot to be desired. regardless, a few thoughts:
1) in the 4E (please please lets not get into THAT discussion now) a variant of the rules allowed taking a "background" which either meant that some skill (or skills? i don't remember) are made class skills for your character (or in that system- "trained"). or the background could amplify a trained skill, giving it a +2.

this is a free option for all characters, on character creation. the backgrounds were kept general on purpose, and you could design a specific background for your character with the DM's permission.

2) a simple fix for the lack of skills is to give more skill points (even upping to odd number of skill points (3/5/7/9) might do wonders. some DMs just increased the low skill classes and it worked out nicely.

3) a similar trend could be done for feats. Path finder gives a feat every odd level (3/5/7/9 and so on). it's an improvement. i know a few people who play so, and so do i intend to.

4) another thing that pathfinder did, and many DMs do with some variants is combine similar themed skills to a single skills, thus lessening the skill cost. (it has other effects, but i'll leave that out for now). some common examples are stealth (hide and move) perception (spot, listen, search), acrobatics (tumble, escape artist, balance) and so on. i've used my own version in the past campaign, and it worked splendidly.

5) another idea, who is in a way a mroe compelx variant on the bakcground system is a sort of "background skill points"- according to the background a character may spend a limited number of skill points on a very specific sets of skills that are considered to be class skills for her. every level she may gain a small number of skill points to allocate. this can also ensure some basic important skills for a specific kind of campaign.

for example, i'm planning on a pirating campaign. and the characters are supposed to be skilled sea people. thus, they get 6 skill points at character creation to spend on "boat skills" (about 4-5 skills, such as craft (boat making), profession (sailor), acrobatics and knowledge (geography) for navigation) and each level they will get 1 skill point more. it won't make them EXPERT sailors (for that they will need to invest) but it helps round up that specific part of their character.

you might allocate specific sets of such "background skills" for your characters.

i haven't tried it yet, so i don't know how well it might work. :smallwink:

i hope this helped! :smallwink:

[Omegas]

You know an easy way to pick up extra feats and skills is to incorporate traits and Flaw like in Unearthed Arcana. DragMag has published dozens of them.

Basicly you can have 2 traits and 2 flaws at level one

traits are a benifit with a negative. Flaws are a reverse feat. Basically for each flaw you take you may select another bonus feat at level one.

Think of Feats as the light side of the force
and Flaws are the Dark side
Traits would just fall in the middle.

[willpell]

4) another thing that pathfinder did, and many DMs do with some variants is combine similar themed skills to a single skills, thus lessening the skill cost.

This was a thing I did not like about Pathfinder; I prefer the extra distinctiveness of separate skills, as it enables me to do interesting things like a Superman-inspired character who has an extremely high Spot check, or a character who's too big and bulky to Hide worth a damn but talented at Move Silently. These groups of skills feel very different, and in cases like Tumble the need to train separately seems very important. (Indeed, it bothers me that Disguise and Forgery are usable untrained, as it means they crop up as a decent untrained check on characters who would never in a million years use them for personality reasons.)

Grouping skills would be good for making more generous skill-enhancing feats, or allowing certain classes to get more of certain skills while other skills are tied to personalities rather than classes - but at this point we're starting to look more like Call of Cthulhu. (Indeed I think if I'm ever to be fully satisfied with a game, I'll need to sew it together out of pieces of original World of Darkness, new World of Darkness, D&D 3.0, D&D 3.5, Call of Cthulhu, and the first RPG I ever played, "Champions: The Superhero RPG". It would be difficult to come up with six systems that were harder to integrate.)

[Sutremaine]

(Indeed, it bothers me that Disguise and Forgery are usable untrained, as it means they crop up as a decent untrained check on characters who would never in a million years use them for personality reasons.)
If they're not going to use the option, why not let them keep it? If you don't like the players being tempted into actions against character because they might be able to pull it off, why not make all skills trained, instead of just Disguise and Forgery?

[VGLordR2]

In my campaigns, I let my players choose any two extra skills that are not on their class list. Of course, they need to have a good backstory to account for these skills, unless they just make sense. Also, I give everyone 4 extra points at first level, and one extra for every level thereafter. If a player would have 16 or fewer points at first level and 4 points or fewer at each additional level, then their skill points become 20 at first and five for each additional level. The bonus skill points for Humans are applied after the boost. I know that this makes my campaigns very skill-heavy, but I like it that way. It helps my players focus less on combat and more on Roleplay.

[Yawgmoth]

Coming from WoD as well, I'll tell you right now that you're never going to get the same kind of character customization that WoD allows from D&D RAW. What I tend to do is give PCs a feat at every odd level, and I also usually give any non-int-based class 4+int skill points.

I had been tooling around with an idea to just convert all feats to skill tricks that cost varying amounts of SP and giving everyone more SP, but I have a feeling that would get way overpowered very quickly.

My suggestion would be to just use nWoD, get WoD: Mirrors, and rock the dark fantasy shard. The only downside to this is that it involves a lot of kludgy transitioning of monsters from d20 to d10 systems.

[willpell]

The WOD system is nice on a lot of levels, but its great weakness is that it's extremely vague about a lot of things. D&D's rules are too complex and crunchy, but some complexity and crunch is a good thing; WOD leaves me with no easy way to determine how much damage a broken clay flagon should deal when thrown into a mithril door that was half-melted and then transmuted to wood which was then partially eaten by fiendish vorpal termites, whereas D&D at least begins to give me some hope of figuring out how to resolve such a situation.

I worry that the game will break if I add more feats, and don't want to do it until I've researched the situation with painful thoroughness. Extra skill points like VGLord talks about are safer, but leave humans feeling less special so I'm not sure if I want to go for it.

[Malimar]

In my game, I allow a Trait that allows a character to make any two class skills permanently cross-class and any one cross-class skill permanently a class skill.

You can probably even be a lot more permissive than that without seriously affecting balance. Just be aware that for any such option you provide, the average player is more likely to use it to qualify for things than to use it because it fits their character concept.

[Sutremaine]

That Trait is a nice idea for skills that can't be gotten through Martial Study.


What I tend to do is give PCs a feat at every odd level, and I also usually give any non-int-based class 4+int skill points.
I've been toying with the idea of giving a feat at every second BAB increase, and letting players pick which mental stat they want to use to determine skill points. The second option seems like much less paperwork than altering skill points for each class.

[rot42]

Cityscape page 59 gives an alternate system giving permanent class skills based on social class. That could be adapted for various backgrounds pretty readily.

[navar100]

Try Pathfinder

Skills were consolidated from 3E. In addition, there is no cross-class nonsense. You spend skill points for ranks on a 1 for one basis. There are class skills which means you get a +3 bonus, but for a non-class skill at 10th level you can have +10 to that skill, not counting ability score modifier.

[Toy Killer]

I once played with a DM for 2 games where he allowed a feat at every level, plus the ones you normally get, and 4 skill points on top of whatever you were supposed to get. the first time I heard this, I face palmed, but groups are hard to come by when you move every couple of years, so I just sucked it up and awaited the Broken cheese wheel to grind.

I was rewarded with a fairly relaxed group and good story.

Now, I figured that I could break the game with a properly allocated feats, but really, it's not that game breaking. Most of the time I took feats that simply fit my character concept. hell, if you have 6 meta-magic feats, 2 item creation feats what else are you going to take that will impressively improve your abilities at level 5? Heaven forbid, I should know how to write poetry on top of that. Not nearly as well as a Bard, but that was part of the fun of it. it gave my character personality and that's how I learned to give up and love the idea that 'Mwar Feats' and 'Mwar Skillz' didn't equal fail.

[eggs]

PHB, pp110:
"Some classes already give you plenty of room to customize your character. With your DM's approval, however, you could change some of your character's class features. For instance, if you want a fighter who used to work for the thieves' guild as an enforcer but is now trying to become a legitimate bodyguard, he could be proficient only with the weapons and armor available to rogues, have 4 skill points per level instead of 2, and access to Bluff and Sense Motive as class skills."

The classes as written are the usual assumption on these boards, but there's no reason they should be in play.

[Yawgmoth]

WOD leaves me with no easy way to determine how much damage a broken clay flagon should deal when thrown into a mithril door that was half-melted and then transmuted to wood which was then partially eaten by fiendish vorpal termites, whereas D&D at least begins to give me some hope of figuring out how to resolve such a situation.
Sure there is. clay, wood, and steel all have listed durability right in the core book. Structure=size+dur. Throwing something as an improvised weapon usually gives the item's dur as an equipment bonus, and thrown weapons are dex+athletics+equipment.

As convoluted as your hyperbolic situation is, it's just as easy to math out in nWoD as it is in D&D; probably easier, since the numbers are smaller.

[willpell]

Try Pathfinder

Skills were consolidated from 3E. In addition, there is no cross-class nonsense.

That's a terrible idea, though. The absence of some skills is as much a part of character concept as their presence; the current system is too restrictive, but some restriction is a good idea.

[SiuiS]

I solve this by applying scale. A guy with a +5 bonus in a skill is noted for it, right? That commoner who has +5 heal is a noted medic and herbalist; he doesn't need to maintain level+5 in total bonus.

A first level character who is known for being a know-it-all would get 1 rank in a plethora of knowledge skills, so he has an acceptably broad base to pull from (instead of say, devoting a bunch of points to singular knowledges. Know/it-alls are rarely specialists). That intimidating wizard has the one rank, maybe a point from charisma, two points from his smartly trimmed Evil Wizard Robes (masterwork intimidation item) and a trait (usually +1 skill, -1 similar, related skill. Can be found at d20srd.org). That's a set +5 right there.

Additionally, you should be mindful of stats when designing the guy. You cannot quite make up poor stats with good skills until higher levels. So an intimidating wizard is going to need more charisma.

[Dienekes]

That's a terrible idea, though. The absence of some skills is as much a part of character concept as their presence; the current system is too restrictive, but some restriction is a good idea.

While I disagree a bit because of the whole game thing and ease of use it's really a simple enough fix.

Perception is the all around skill, it solves the skill point problem. But let's say you want your character to be just good at the looking part of perception but crap at listening just homebrew up a flaw.
Flaw: Can't Hear for Crap: You can't hear for crap. Skill points put in Perception are not applied for the Listen use.

Problem solved.

[willpell]

There is no finesse to such a solution. I like sliders.

[CGforever!]

In my houserules, I did this:

-feats gained at every odd level (3, 5, 7, 9, etc.)
-feats like iron will, alertness, and skill focus give better bonuses at higher levels
-I added a feat called "skilled" - very similar to the one given above
-allow flaws and traits
-keep in mind that most people in a world don't even have +1 to any given skill. A wizard with a +3 to intimidate is going to intimidate low level warriors more often than not.

I got tired of making characters who always lacked one or two feats or skills that I wanted them to have, and I know that you don't "need" max ranks in every skill.

[Keneth]

Use Pathfinder. Better handling of skill points and plenty of flavorful feats and traits to get bonuses/add skills to class list.

[Ranting Fool]

At the moment I'm giving my players bonus feats every 3rd level (starting at 3) but these feats are picked by me/group vote for each person based on what the character has done/fits the theme.

Example: The Barbarian who has broken down 9+ wooden doors in the last adventure (who needs to pick locks when you can just brake everything) was given Destructive Rage

This houserule was added for fun and the chance to try out feats that arn't always that Optimized and not for the "If I can sneek in 2 more feats I can make this build that brakes the world"

I have infact told my players that the reason the Pun Pun type builds never happen is that as soon as someone starts down that road and gains a lot of power that quickly one God or another smites them so they could never take over the power of a God :smallbiggrin::smalltongue:

[ILM]

In my games, there's no such think as cross-class skills anymore. It's a pain in the neck in terms of character development, it's a headache to monitor and check and verify 6 levels later that nobody made a mistake, and it serves little purpose other than saying "no, you can't get into that PrC because you didn't follow the path we wanted you to take". You want a fighter who can sing and dance, go right ahead.

I'm sure someone will quote me a combination that breaks the entry requirements of a PrC, and if that ever came up in my game I'd deal with it ad hoc (probably with a book to the face).

[Ranting Fool]

I'm sure someone will quote me a combination that breaks the entry requirements of a PrC, and if that ever came up in my game I'd deal with it ad hoc (probably with a book to the face).

Thats the DM Way :smallbiggrin:

[Berenger]

D20 Modern and its supplements have "Starting Occupations". Those from "Past" and "Urban Arcana" should fit best for fantasy settings, but most will do with some minor tweaking.

You pick an occupation at character creation, for example "Law Enforcement", "Doctor" or "White Collar". You get 1-3 new class skills from a thematically appropriate list (or +1 to an existing class skill from said list), and / or one bonus feat from a thematically appropriate list, and / or a reputation bonus, and / or a wealth bonus.There are prerequisites for some occupations, but they are not very harsh (e.g. the "Doctor" must be 25+ years of age, due to necessary studies).

For example: My fighter is no ordinary fighter, he is a combat medic! So I pick the best fitting starting occupation, say, "Emergency Services". I choose "Treat Injury" and "Knowledge: Earth and Life Sciences" as his additional class skills. On top, this nets him a +2 to his Wealth Modifier (he gets better pay than some rank and file trooper, after all). My other fighter is no ordinary fighter either, he is a knight. So he is an "Aristocrat", netting him even more starting money (shiny armor!), +1 on Ride, +1 Reputation and the title "Sir"...

[willpell]

@ Berenger: That's my favorite of the suggestions so far, but I don't own those books so I'd have to cobble them together from scratch. Might be worth the effort eventually, though, as it's pretty much exactly what I had in mind.

[Berenger]

@willpell: I just sent you a message.

[Quietus]

@ Berenger: That's my favorite of the suggestions so far, but I don't own those books so I'd have to cobble them together from scratch. Might be worth the effort eventually, though, as it's pretty much exactly what I had in mind.

That's really the key to this. I don't think it's possible, from what I've read in this thread, for a system to reasonably provide a crunch-based solution that you're going to be happy with without completely bloating their book with backgrounds and options - which would only annoy other people. There's literally no way to make everyone happy. But asking your players to give you a background, give them a couple thematic skills that are permanently class skills, and 6-8 free skill points that can only be spent on thematic things and can be traded for extra money.. that's a decent guideline to work around.

[Berenger]

Most of the starting occupations are available here (http://www.d20resources.com/) under Open Game License (named "occupation", not "starting occupation" in the Arcana d20 SRD entry, but is the same thing).