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Jallorn
2012-04-22, 06:00 PM
So aside from a single player who is unpredictable in the extreme (a good thing for me as I've managed to adapt to his unpredictability, and his unpredictability usually moves the plot forwards), my players tend to get very bogged down in a state of, "What do we do next." I've tried to encourage them to set personal goals for some of their characters, but the response is usually, "I don't know what's out in the world." When I tell them it's a homebrew world that will adapt to some of what they want to do, they just shrug. Anybody have any good ideas for getting them invested and proactive?

Terraoblivion
2012-04-22, 06:17 PM
I can see two options. Either they don't want to be proactive in which case you need to take a more active stance in creating a story and pushing it forward.

Or you need to present them with more hooks they can work with in developing ties to the setting. A blank slate and being told "put whatever you want here" is one of the hardest things to work with and absolutely kills creativity for most people. Talking to them about it during character creation might help them tie their characters more to the world from the start. Giving some general idea of what it is like before people start making characters is important too.

I don't know which it is, so you need to talk them about what they want out of the game first and try to adjust what you do to accommodate for that.

Shadowknight12
2012-04-22, 06:46 PM
You have two main ways of doing this. Obviously, the one that requires the most effort will yield the better results.

A) Get to know your players. This is the one I do, because it yields the best results. Talk to each player outside the game, one on one, and find out the things they like, the stuff that gets them motivated, why they play, and so on. Then tailor your game to that. This, obviously, requires a great deal of time and effort, but it's guaranteed to provide the best results.

B) Copy successful works. Rip off everything that's popular with your group, and do so shamelessly.

Now, this is assuming you mean to say "How do I get players interested in playing the game" and not "How do I get players interested in the things I create for them." If you mean the latter, then it's a whole other kettle of fish.

Glimbur
2012-04-22, 06:54 PM
Thugs. Con men. Honest peasants asking for help with bandits. The draft. A mad wizard. If the party won't go to the adventure, bring the adventure to them.

Physics_Rook
2012-04-22, 10:53 PM
It may not be so much a matter of your players being inactive, as not knowing what there is in the world that they're capable of influencing. It could be that they're unaware of the things that might interest them.

Sometimes it can be a matter scope. Maybe the only things the players know about are so big they feel that there's no point in tackling that problem until they have more resources (i.e. higher level).

If they don't know much about your world, they're going to be very hard-pressed to come up with goals that they feel are appropriate for both your world and their character.

Part of the difficulty in setting a goal in a homebrew campaign is in just choosing something that doesn't clash with the fluff of the world. Another part is also in choosing a goal that is capable of being achieved in a style that doesn't clash with the type of character the player wants to play.

I recommend filling them in on some of the local and regional history and rumors that their would know. Riddle your lore-telling with some story-hooks and see what the players take interest in.

No need to dump it on them all at once either.
Start each session with some interesting anecdote that their characters would know and ask them what their characters would think about it.

Endarire
2012-04-22, 11:40 PM
(I posted this above in a similar thread.)

My answer to this problem was to build a robust campaign setting where, in the first mission, the group will get plenty of leads (and rumors!) as to what's happening in the world, assuming they take the time to talk.

If they don't, there's a main quest anyway.

The Metaphysical Revolution (http://campbellgrege.com/premier-work/) is here!

Totally Guy
2012-04-23, 12:50 AM
You need to tell the players what the game you are running is about. They need to tell you what they want out of that game, their priorities. You need situation in you game that accommodates those things.

TheOOB
2012-04-23, 02:04 AM
For one thing, note that if a player doesn't want to be proactive, don't try to force them. Some players would rather just be along for the ride, and that's fine. If they don't want the spotlight, don't push it on them.

A key thing that I think helps is to get some information from your players, talk with them and have them come up with some info about their characters that you can then use as plot hooks. The most important question, that every player should have is this: What is your characters goal. Adventuring is a dangerous profession, and they took it up for a reason. It doesn't have to be complex, it could be as simple such as "Gather lots of money and retire a wealthy", or "Amass as much knowledge and arcane power as possible", or complex like "Overthrow the false king and return the realm back to peace", or "Seek out the lost artifact of Pelor and return it to it's resting place in the astral plane." A goal gives you a way of getting the players interested in the adventure.

Anyways, here are some other things you can get to help get your players involves in the adventure. Ask them these questions. They don't have to have an answer for all of them, but even a few of them will help.

* Does your character have any living family
* Does your character have any old enemies
* Does your character have any old allies
* Does your character have a secret
* Does your character have a political agenda
* Is your character religious
* What is your character willing to die for
* What is your character willing to do for money
* What will your character refuse to do
* Does your character have any regrets
* Does your character prefer money or power

Jornophelanthas
2012-04-23, 10:20 AM
So aside from a single player who is unpredictable in the extreme (a good thing for me as I've managed to adapt to his unpredictability, and his unpredictability usually moves the plot forwards), my players tend to get very bogged down in a state of, "What do we do next." I've tried to encourage them to set personal goals for some of their characters, but the response is usually, "I don't know what's out in the world." When I tell them it's a homebrew world that will adapt to some of what they want to do, they just shrug. Anybody have any good ideas for getting them invested and proactive?

It sounds to me like there are two possible situations here.

1. The players don't care about the game world and just want to ride your main quest without diversions.
If this is the case, the solution is for you to adjust your expectations. Players who do not want personal goals cannot be forced to develop any.

2. The players are interested in pursuing personal goals, but they have nothing to work with.
If this is the case, the problem is that your setting is too undefined. Basically, you're defeating yourself by leaving the setting open to the players.

DM: "So what do you guys want to do?"
Players: "I don't know. What's out there?"
DM: "Well, whatever."
Players: "Whatever..."

When the players ask you what's out there in your world, what they want is you telling them specifically what is out there, so that they can latch their own plans and goals onto those things. If you give them nothing, they won't have anything.

DM: "So what do you guys want to do?"
Players: "I don't know. What's out there?"
DM: "Well, you've just arrived in a city where there's currently a trade war going on between two guilds who both want to control the port. Both guilds are recruiting people to guard their cargoes from sabotage. The authorities are worried."
Player 1: "Really? Well, let's get out of here before we get involved."
Player 2: "Really? I want to enlist with one of the guilds to earn some money, and then I'll become an informer for the other guild. That will pay more."
Player 3: "Really? There's a port? Let's steal a ship and become pirates!"

Oracle_Hunter
2012-04-23, 10:35 AM
You need to tell the players what the game you are running is about. They need to tell you what they want out of that game, their priorities. You need situation in you game that accommodates those things.
QFT -- but to expand

"Telling your Players what your game is about" is mostly about setting expectations. IME most Players to not do well in a Wide Open Sandbox (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WideOpenSandbox) because, in their hearts of hearts, they want to be part of the story and they expect the DM to get things rolling. Some people may never be able to be "proactive" in the sense that they can invent a plot out of the stuff around them -- but if you throw them a bone like "there are great deeds to be done in Adventure Land" it can be enough to stir their creative juices.

"Listening to what your Players want" is something you need to do all the time, but particularly if you want them to be "proactive." If a Player really wants to be a Master Trader but the world as he sees it doesn't have that available, he's not going to be particularly "proactive" regardless of how awesome the towns you wrote are. Slightly more disheartening, it is wholly possible that your Players were expecting a traditional D&D game in which they are given a quest and they do it -- these Players will not be happy if the game turns out to be a sandbox without the hope of a quest being handed to them. But you won't know if you don't ask.

Additionally: not all Players want to write their own story whole-cloth and there is nothing you can do to make them. If you really want more Player input in the game you need to (1) Ask them what they want out of the game and (2) Work with their expressed desires. If they still stonewall, then shut down your campaign and say "before I start my next one, I'd like to hear what you think would be fun to play." While a radical step, even if they give you no more than a sentence apiece you can at least build something that they might relate to.

valadil
2012-04-23, 10:43 AM
Player proactivity depends on momentum. You can't expect them to be proactive when they're currently at a standstill. Give them a nudge or two to get them rolling, then when they've picked up enough momentum, they'll carry themselves without help.

In more gamey terms, I like to start my games with railroads just to get things moving. Give them a very obvious quest. But don't give them quest a straightforward end. The quest shouldn't be something they can complete. The quest should resolve with them making a decision. Why? Because once they've made the decision, you can fill the game with its consequences. Now the players will see their choices matter and they'll be more interested in doing things.

You might have to go through this process a couple times to get things going. I think the problem is that players aren't used to their actions mattering. Most quests are just checklists and once done they can be forgotten. If the players have been given personal time before, it's likely been inconsequential. I mean, if my character is a blacksmith in his spare time and earns an extra 20gp a week by spending 15 minutes rolling dice and haggling with customers, that doesn't help the story. I'd rather fast forward past that and get more adventuring time. You need to show the players that their individual roleplaying choices do matter. But to get to that point they need a little nudging.

Cespenar
2012-04-23, 10:44 AM
Seconding the idea of throwing them hooks. Sandbox doesn't simply mean saying "well, you can do anything" to the players, it means presenting them lots of hooks and then building upon the ones they bite.

And after a while, the consequences of their earlier choices will easily make the rest of the game paved out already.

Sudain
2012-04-24, 09:31 AM
It sounds to me like there are two possible situations here.

1. The players don't care about the game world and just want to ride your main quest without diversions.
If this is the case, the solution is for you to adjust your expectations. Players who do not want personal goals cannot be forced to develop any.

2. The players are interested in pursuing personal goals, but they have nothing to work with.
If this is the case, the problem is that your setting is too undefined. Basically, you're defeating yourself by leaving the setting open to the players.

DM: "So what do you guys want to do?"
Players: "I don't know. What's out there?"
DM: "Well, whatever."
Players: "Whatever..."

When the players ask you what's out there in your world, what they want is you telling them specifically what is out there, so that they can latch their own plans and goals onto those things. If you give them nothing, they won't have anything.

DM: "So what do you guys want to do?"
Players: "I don't know. What's out there?"
DM: "Well, you've just arrived in a city where there's currently a trade war going on between two guilds who both want to control the port. Both guilds are recruiting people to guard their cargoes from sabotage. The authorities are worried."
Player 1: "Really? Well, let's get out of here before we get involved."
Player 2: "Really? I want to enlist with one of the guilds to earn some money, and then I'll become an informer for the other guild. That will pay more."
Player 3: "Really? There's a port? Let's steal a ship and become pirates!"

This is great advice.

The only thing else I do is I early on force a major plot hook into them(example: "Deliver this thing from point A to point B" and don't explain why. And occasionally try to have someone steal it). Major point: they will always have an overarching goal they can work towards. If they choose to work towards it, or how is their own problem.

Name_Here
2012-04-24, 10:01 AM
Do your players think that you are a harsh GM? Because it's possible that they aren't being pro-active out of fear that they won't think things entirely through and get smacked down for it.

For this I would recommend feeding one of your players a couple ideas about how they can start some GM approved plots. Have it work out awesomely and reward the player handsomely and next time they'll try and bring forth their own ideas slowly at first but after the Player you've been feeding gets an extra level on everybody they'll be falling over themselves to plot out the next heist.

Or it could be that your players just aren't the take charge types. Nothing wrong with that they are cautious and it's not like they actually know the world. They are just looking for something different than you are offering.

Righteous Doggy
2012-04-24, 10:04 PM
If I can throw my thoughts in, I used to get hit hard by that question. I don't know what I want to do when I just made or got tossed a character sheet, especially not immidiately! but... as time went on and I matured into a different sort of player, this really changed for me. I love blank slates more than linear dungeons or questlines. I can actually get some roleplaying going, get the feeling I'm acheiving something and I'm free to get rolling on some crazy schemes and goals. Its much easier to become overlord or vigilante when I'm not helping silly peasants or stuck in dusty ol' dungeons all day :P.
However... that said, like everyone else noted players do get the reaction alot. Have you tried to say you can do whatever you want? i mean... for once we aren't on traintracks right!? not for everyone, but at least the feeling of freedom while doing quest can mean a lot. It super duper helps if they actually have a character and goal in mind at character creation.

Soylent Dave
2012-04-24, 10:11 PM
I've tried to encourage them to set personal goals for some of their characters, but the response is usually, "I don't know what's out in the world." When I tell them it's a homebrew world that will adapt to some of what they want to do, they just shrug. Anybody have any good ideas for getting them invested and proactive?

It's because you've got a sandbox homebrew world that will adapt to whatever they do.

It sounds like the ideal roleplay situation - the GM isn't forcing anything upon his players, he's letting them create the world and decide what they want their characters to do without any railroading at all.

Unfortunately, most campaigns (or most players) do actually need a fair bit of direction from the GM - you need to dangle juicy (and not so juicy) plot hooks in front of them, you need to have events happening around them which they can interact with and so on.

The problem with leaving things wide open is that it seems like you're giving players absolute and total agency; but in reality they're probably just going to sit there and not do anything until some plot hits them in the face.

Your job as the GM - all the more so when it's a homebrew world - is really to distill the infinite choices open to your players down to a few interesting situations (plot hooks), which will get the game and the characters progressing.

You may find that the players refuse some of these plot hooks - that's where their player agency comes in - but even characters deliberately choosing not to do something can often get things happening; it's when they aren't making any choices at all (because they don't know what choices to make - which in this case is because there are so many choices they can't begin to choose) that nothing happens, and the game or character development stagnates.

-

(another good idea with a homebrew campaign is to do produce a campaign guide for your players, detailing a little bit about the world they're in, the people that inhabit it etc. - I did one for my players (which looks like this (http://soylentdave.com/roleplaying/Stargate%20New%20Babylon.pdf)) and it's definitely helped them get a better handle on the campaign world)

Ninjadeadbeard
2012-04-24, 11:50 PM
Look at the posts above me. They are all incredibly useful advice that everyone looking to DM should heed... This isn't :smallamused:.

My advice is to steal from the players (http://spoonyexperiment.com/2012/04/03/counter-monkey-the-dungeon-masters-secret-weapon/) and let them go after the one who did it. :smallbiggrin:

Crow
2012-04-27, 01:17 AM
Stealing for the players, while not the ideal solution, hits on the core.

Give them something they care about, and weave a story around it that they will want to tell.

Jayngfet
2012-04-27, 01:49 AM
Well obviously they need to know what's going on.

If some lord is holding a giant fighting tournament with the winner getting a magical sword of awesome, they should know.

If some explorer is hiring guards and getting a crew for a giant exploration effort to unknown lands, they should know.

If an ancient black dragon has awoken from it's six hundred year slumber and subjugated a half a dozen towns to it's whims, they should know.

If the orcs and the dwarves have gotten into another war that leaves thousands on both sides dead and everyone needs people who can fight to help, they should know.

There should be two or three things going on that are so big the party doesn't NEED a gather information check to find out, it's just a thing that's happening that every single person they pass has been talking about so much it's ingrained into them from the start, or at least something they find out about as soon as they enter a new area.

Jay R
2012-04-27, 09:47 AM
The problem with coming up with something that will make the players proactive is that it's a contradiction in terms.

They are only reacting to what you say. If you do something and they change to be more proactive, then they are reacting to the something you did, which is reactive.

Write a scenario to fit the players you have; don't try to change them to fit the scenario you have.