The better man? There is no such thing [base class]

[Gideon Falcon]

Dude. Construct Mutators are now Transformers? AWESOMESAUCE.
Not entirely sure what the point of Extrude Docent ability is. Yeah, it can give you minions sometimes, and they can scout, but is that it? It seems like it should be able to provide some sort of rebirth thing ala Braniac.

[Just to Browse]

In any case, persistant spell effects don't have many differences from at-will spell effects, when it is all said and done.

The thing that bothers me about the "at-will = persist" mentality is that it encourages getting at-will effects that are 1r/lvl instead of 1min/lvl (because those are stronger and require no extra investment), and also facilitates arguing with the DM about how many rounds ago you cast your buff when you enter combat. Natural Invisibility suffers from a similar problem, but breaks so easily that I didn't think it really mattered.

[Milo v3]

I'm currently making a PrC for this and I was wondering; Say you are a fire elemental (thus having the fire subtype by default), you gain Heart of Elements [Air] (gaining the Air subtype). If you then obtained the Elemental Potency Teratomorph, would it improve both your fire and electricity damage or would have have to select one.

[Draken]

All of the elemental teratomorphisms past rank I give abilities based on what elemental subtypes you have. All of them.

[Milo v3]

All of the elemental teratomorphisms past rank I give abilities based on what elemental subtypes you have. All of them.

Hmm. That's going to make balancing difficult for my PrC, as it's based on giving the Evolutionist Heart of the Elements for the other elements, thus creating an evolved elemental.

Well, time to tweak features.

[Draken]

Hmm. That's going to make balancing difficult for my PrC, as it's based on giving the Evolutionist Heart of the Elements for the other elements, thus creating an evolved elemental.

Well, time to tweak features.

You mean elements besides the four base elements? Because there is a sidebar for that.

If you mean granting the rest of the subtype teratomorphisms, I would suggest adjusting pacing along the prestige class, the ultimate balancing act on that should be the fact that it is giving more low-level teratomorphisms in exchange for high-level ones (and perfection)

[Hanuman]

Thanks for the tips on his character, gives him something to consider when leveling. I'm kind of arms-race about encounters so he's probably going to boil his party in difficult situations being dangerous alone doesn't solve.

What do you think of me retooling the old pokemon trainer class and making it evolution and teratomorphism based instead?

[Draken]

Thanks for the tips on his character, gives him something to consider when leveling. I'm kind of arms-race about encounters so he's probably going to boil his party in difficult situations being dangerous alone doesn't solve.

What do you think of me retooling the old pokemon trainer class and making it evolution and teratomorphism based instead?

Have a go. I do recommend cutting out access to Spell-like Abilities and Psi-like abilities for such a class, unless there is a hard limit on how many monsters the class gets.

[Hanuman]

There's no (Sp) (Psi) or spells cast, the PKMT has caster levels, what problems could be ran into with (Sp) access for the pokemon?

http://www.scshop.com/~ritaxis/summoner.html

There's no limit to how many you can get, only how many you can control (and therefore the ones that you can release, equal to your CHA mod. There's really no rules stated for how you control one then refund and control another other than releasing the pokemon i think, I'll write something in allowing a change during rest to make sure spell effects are a non-issue.

The main mechanic that worries me is the CR cannot exceed CL, I playtested this a while back and it was pretty silly what utility you can get out of a midlevel, and what templates you can put on em. It's kind of like having 4-6 pathfinder summoner eidolons you can throw out 1 at a time, and each are more powerful.

Lacking spells, you gotta have a bit more options, but having 6 CR9 monsters...
Arcane Ooze = Living Antimagic Ooze
Gargantuan Assassin Vine = Like an optimized grappler + Living Spell (Web)
Elsewhale = Planar Transport Bus
Inferno Spider = When you want to set everything on fire.
Phasm = Powerful Shapechanger Diplomancer
Yuki-On-Na = Because I'm a bard, and between pixie, yuki and I, hell we made demons dance with pure skillchecks. To this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJdnWsArEPo
Pixie Cohort (Leadership)

It's not that the utility is bad, I'm just saying that having several 20HD monsters at level 9 is broken.

---

Ok, so here's the basic brainstorm:
Capture "monster" as stated in class, no more than CHAMOD# of Level -2HD(minimum 1/4HD@level1, 1/2HD@level2) monsters, grant monster evolutionist levels that you control to a maximum of 2HD lower than you are, and the ability to replace a certain number of HD with evolutionist level HD?

So you go brain a rat with extreme prejudice, capture it in a ball, and mutate it replacing it's normal animal HD and associated granted stats and replace with an evolutionist level. "RATATA, FLAMETHROWER!" Even level 1 would be rad.

[Draken]

I am presuming you mean the 'retooling' to be upgrading the monsters caugh with mutator levels and mutations.

The thing with SLAs/PLAs then, is that you could hand various spells/powers to different monsters. And that could be problematic, because the evolutionist has a very extensive spell list (technically, all spells are avaiable), which is only limited by the fact that you can only take up to 20 different spell-likes.

Edit: I can't emphasize how poor of a choice exchanging racial HD of monsters with levels in any class would be.

[Hanuman]

Well, that sounds like it just gives incentive to capture a bigger monster and ditch your caterpie sooner. If not, give it wings and poison spores and stuff, or keep it as a really really amazing caterpie. That being said, low pokemon have low stats anyway, so it's keeping theme.

I don't really see a problem with having a lot of really low level spells except at like level 1-3, perhaps a clause can be added to limit spell gain on each per level?

[J-H]

Is the table for SLAs based on how many times the mutation has been taken?


Elemental Lance
Prerequisite: Elemental resistance.
Ability Score: None
Benefit: The evolutionist can attack one target within 60 ft. with a bolt of elemental energy as a ranged touch attack, dealing 1d8 points of damage. This damage must be of a kind of energy to which the evolutionist has resistance or immunity. For every two mutator levels beyond the first (3rd, 5th, 7th, etc), this attack deals an extra 1d8 damage.
Further Mutations: Each time this mutation is taken, the evolutionist can gain an extra elemental lance, dealing a different kind of energy damage, or he can increase the range of an existing elemental lance by 60 ft and the damage of that lance by 1d8. This mutation can be taken up to once per two mutator levels.
One point in this mutation gets you 9d8 damage by level 20. If I'm reading this right, you can take it 4 more times and get 4 more lances, each of which scale with level. 5 lances x 9d8 = 45d8 damage by level 20 for the price of 5 mutations.... or can you only fire one lance per round?

[Draken]

That is not how elemental lance was supposed to work, but it is a perfect valid reading, given the wording of it.

Elemental lance should not be used. It is undergoing a rewrite as we speak.

[Necroticplague]

To mod it with the least effort, replace the (extra lance) with (seperate lance), and explicitely state each attack can only be made with one lance. This still allows you to switch lances mid-full-attack, while not increasing damage from that option. I do assume the intent of taking it more times is to increase the versatiliy (i.e. having one fire lance and one ice lance), not deal ludicrous amount of damage to something not immune to the element you. You might also want to specify the use of a lance is an attack action, since it's only implied rather than outright stated.

[ArkenBrony]

i have come up with a question due to something one of my players came up with. if you take nourishing flora, and disease, can you bestow the disease through the fruit?

[Draken]

i have come up with a question due to something one of my players came up with. if you take nourishing flora, and disease, can you bestow the disease through the fruit?

By definition, no. Since you must employ natural attacks to transmit diseases.

[J-H]

Here's a level 10 evolutionist who looks like just another guy on the street - except for being stronger, tougher, and more mobile:

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=477345

I still have 4 feats left that I'm leaving blank until I figure out if this is going anywhere.

[Hanuman]

Depends, did you want this fruit be 100% fruit or did you want the fruit to have your natural weapons?

[ArkenBrony]

It was just a fruit, but my player was trying to think of a way to disease people with his fruits in a social gathering like thing, and make it so he isn't suspected to have caused it

[Draken]

It was just a fruit, but my player was trying to think of a way to disease people with his fruits in a social gathering like thing, and make it so he isn't suspected to have caused it

If he's got a disease that is transmited by contact he could use a touch attack (by all means, a handshake) to deliver it.

[Hanuman]

Could you make a touch attack with your fruit before they are picked, like when they are getting picked?

Also, plants are immune to disease and not poison, so if you grow a plant it's eating you, so if you have a disease that is ingested, wouldn't the fruit, and then wouldn't anyone who eats the fruit?

[Gideon Falcon]

I gotta say, the idea of using Nourishing Flora to make poisonous or disease-ridden fruits sounds pretty awesome. I don't think it would have any problems from a balance stand-point, and the fluff would be to die for.

[Draken]

Well, by all means, it could pass out contact or ingested diseases the evolutionist happens to have, I suppose.

I will add a special line to that effect.

Edit: Nourishing Flora has been renamed Nourishment so as to not limit it to vegetables and similars. The mutation now also allows such things as highly nutritive blood, hairs, nails or being able to pull off strips of bacon out of your ass that regenerate immediately.

Also. Nourishment now shuts down if the evolutionist himself is starving.

[Rizban]

Draken, that's simultaneously disgusting and amazing. I want to play as an anthropomorphic boar just so I can feed my party fresh bacon.

[Iron Orbit]

Alright, totally creating and including an evolutionist in my campaign! Such a cool opponent to face, hopefully adaptive and able to survive an encounter with them. Great work man!

[Hanuman]

Awesome, so you could have a warforged mutator with willy wonka pills.

[Mithril Leaf]

I have a question regarding mixing of teratomorphisms:
What happens if you take both the Armor of the Outer Planes (off the outsider list) and Plating (off the construct list) teratomorphisms? For example, I feel like playing a warforged who ascends to an almost outsider. I pick up Outsider Mutator feat, and at level 2 pick up Armor of the Outer Planes. I've already got Composite plating, what happens? After that I grab Plating for even more defense, what happens to my soul armor?

[Rizban]

Plating stacks with the Warforged's composite plating, as stated.

Since composite plating cannot be removed and takes up the Body item slot, it would seem that the Armor of the Outer Planes ability cannot be used, as it would require removing the natural plating and replacing it with armor.

It looks like you're forced to choose one or the other.

[Draken]

Like Rizban said, AotOP and Plating are mutually exclusive, just like size increase and size decrease.

[Milo v3]

From creating a evolutionist/gunslinger gestalt; I'm starting to think that your Elemental mutations are much more powerful than the others.

Namely the Elemental Breach, which can be used to create huge amounts of destruction if you buy it twice.

Also, here is the character (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263552). I'm currently trying to figure out his power level.

[Draken]

From creating a evolutionist/gunslinger gestalt; I'm starting to think that your Elemental mutations are much more powerful than the others.

Namely the Elemental Breach, which can be used to create huge amounts of destruction if you buy it twice.

Also, here is the character (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263552). I'm currently trying to figure out his power level.

Elemental breach's lack of save was balanced against the fact that pretty much anyone can evade it with a move action. It is great battlefield control, But I never quite saw it as much of a damage dealing option except on a few choice scenarios.

[Grimsage Matt]

You can use it with positive energy for a AoE heal. Planed on making a Elemental/Undead hybrid that was a combo Healer/Warlock on steroids type, but got shot down by the DM.

[Milo v3]

Elemental breach's lack of save was balanced against the fact that pretty much anyone can evade it with a move action. It is great battlefield control, But I never quite saw it as much of a damage dealing option except on a few choice scenarios.

I was mainly going to use it for damaging enemies without legs (removed by mutilate), and using it during surprise rounds to get enemies before they can escape.

[Rizban]

You can use it with positive energy for a AoE heal. Planed on making a Elemental/Undead hybrid that was a combo Healer/Warlock on steroids type, but got shot down by the DM.

Can you use elemental breach for positive/negative energy?

[Milo v3]

Can you use elemental breach for positive/negative energy?

Only if you have Positive or Negative energy resistance.

[Mithril Leaf]

So if you're a high evolutionist, can you give other options within mutations? For example, if I mutated natural weapon(tentacles), could I give someone natural weapon(claws)? It's somewhat unclear.

[Draken]

You would not. Refer to "granting mutations" in the first page (just under "mutations and appearance").

Also. High Evolutionary.

[Rizban]

Only if you have Positive or Negative energy resistance.

Just need to find a good source of negative energy resistance now...

[Volthawk]

Just need to find a good source of negative energy resistance now...

Well, Negaton Shield (Undead mutation) gives both positive and negative energy resistance.

[Omnicrat]

High Evolutionary.

Is this a reference to an alternate earth Marvel villain?

[Draken]

Is this a reference to an alternate earth Marvel villain?

Maybe.

And on the Ninth day, the Lord said: "Let there be nerfs!"

Changelog:

Living Bastion: Cannot give more than hardness 20. Bring out the adamantine.

Spell-like abilities (Construct mutator upgrade): Infusions are treated as being one spell-level higher for the purposes of avaiability.

Spell Resistance: Now 1/4 mutator levels (caps at 30 at level 20).

Natural Invisibility: Second acquisition now causes See Invisibility and other effects that are inferior to True Seeing to allow sight of a blurred outline, which still grants the evolutionist concealment and 50% miss chance. As opposed to See Invisibility being utterly useless.

[Rizban]

Well, Negaton Shield (Undead mutation) gives both positive and negative energy resistance.

Somehow, I missed that...



On another note, have you considered something like a Practiced Mutator feat? Perhaps something like...

Improved Mutatations [Mutator]
You are so adept at manipulating mutations that you can force stronger changes in your form than other evolutionists.
Prerequisites: Mutator level 1, Knowledge ??? 4 ranks.
Benefit: Your effective mutator level is 2 higher than normal for the purpose of determining the level of mutations you can select. This benefit does not increase your mutator level in any other circumstance, nor does it allow you to take mutations more often than normally available.


I would suggest the Knowledge skill be whichever one is appropriate for your base creature type, e.g. local for humanoids or arcana for dragons.

[Mithril Leaf]

Alright, enough of me going against the grain here.
What would you place the GP value of a single mutation at? A potion that gives you a bonus mutation to be used as you chose? Any sort of item set for the evolutionist would be really cool, there's a lack of useful generic equipment for evolutionists overall.

[Draken]

There wouldn't be a good singularized cost for a draught that simply gave one extra mutation assignable on the go. As a matter of fact, such an item would have to be obnoxiously costly, because it would provide a massive benefit.

A potion giving specific mutations for 24 hours, however, would probably be safely costed at (100*number of mutations*highest required mutator level) for crafting, requiring brew potion, most likely.

So, you would have an Evolving Draught of Fire Breath VII, granting seven instances of the Breath Weapon mutation (enough that it would be capped for damage and have its cooldown lowered to the minimum of 2 rounds) priced at 9800 gp on the market. It would be useless for anyone without mutator levels of at least Use Magic Device. With the extra cave-eat that it would do nothing if the imbiber did not qualify for the breath weapon mutation, namely, having fire resistance.

----------

Magic item wise, evolutionists don't really want any specialized gear. Just ability score upgrades, maybe simple armors and maybe an amulet of mighty fists a necklace of natural weapons.

------------

As for that feat Riz, I decided against something of the like due to the built-in friendlyness to certain forms of multiclassing that I already included.

[Mithril Leaf]

There wouldn't be a good singularized cost for a draught that simply gave one extra mutation assignable on the go. As a matter of fact, such an item would have to be obnoxiously costly, because it would provide a massive benefit.

A potion giving specific mutations for 24 hours, however, would probably be safely costed at (100*number of mutations*highest required mutator level) for crafting, requiring brew potion, most likely.

So, you would have an Evolving Draught of Fire Breath VII, granting seven instances of the Breath Weapon mutation (enough that it would be capped for damage and have its cooldown lowered to the minimum of 2 rounds) priced at 9800 gp on the market. It would be useless for anyone without mutator levels of at least Use Magic Device. With the extra cave-eat that it would do nothing if the imbiber did not qualify for the breath weapon mutation, namely, having fire resistance.

----------

Magic item wise, evolutionists don't really want any specialized gear. Just ability score upgrades, maybe simple armors and maybe an amulet of mighty fists a necklace of natural weapons.

------------

As for that feat Riz, I decided against something of the like due to the built-in friendlyness to certain forms of multiclassing that I already included.

You misunderstand I believe. Not assignable on the go, but you can chose any one mutation you qualify for and gain it. One more mutation assigned at that level basically. Same rules, same everything else. Just one more mutation for X gold.

[Draken]

You misunderstand I believe. Not assignable on the go, but you can chose any one mutation you qualify for and gain it. One more mutation assigned at that level basically. Same rules, same everything else. Just one more mutation for X gold.

Like buying an extra spell for the wizard's spellbook? No dice on that front. Would take away from the construct perfection too.

[Mithril Leaf]

Like buying an extra spell for the wizard's spellbook? No dice on that front. Would take away from the construct perfection too.

More like buying a pearl of power or a set of wildshape gear, but yeah. Ah well.

[ShadowFireLance]

@ Draken: Grammer Error in your first post, you say that:

"Dragons shall have you know that they are the most-etc" When it should be:
"Dragons ARE the most terrible, Awesome, and magneficent Beings to grace the world"

Just a Small nit-pick
:smallwink::smallbiggrin::smallcool:

[Gideon Falcon]

Earlier in the thread, the idea was brought up of an Evolutionist/Xenoalchemist PrC. If I remember correctly, you were interested in it, but were having trouble coming up with anything past the ability to grant mutations with grafts.
I think there's another path to go with that, however. The Connoisseur class (which I can't find due to my search functions being disabled for some reason) allows you to become what you eat. It can give grafts, skills, spells, and feats as is, and an Evolutionist cross PrC can add the ability to take mutations from meals that had analogous abilities in life.

[Milo v3]

Earlier in the thread, the idea was brought up of an Evolutionist/Xenoalchemist PrC. If I remember correctly, you were interested in it, but were having trouble coming up with anything past the ability to grant mutations with grafts.
I think there's another path to go with that, however. The Connoisseur class (which I can't find due to my search functions being disabled for some reason) allows you to become what you eat. It can give grafts, skills, spells, and feats as is, and an Evolutionist cross PrC can add the ability to take mutations from meals that had analogous abilities in life.

So like my Grim Wight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253826). Except for mutations and grafts, rather than grafts and grammarie.

[Omnicrat]

Have you considered augmenting the Grove plant mutation to allow the evolutionist to use the mechanics created by Kellus for the Geoccult discipline of Gramarie? I've always liked that mutation (when I play an evolutionist, I plan on taking plant mutator feet and two mutations just to get Grove) and adding in Geoccult mechanics would only make more fun.

[EdroGrimshell]

The Connoisseur, by Kellus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232699)

@Gideon Falcon: And the forum search function has been disabled since the mass update a few months ago.

[Draken]

Have you considered augmenting the Grove plant mutation to allow the evolutionist to use the mechanics created by Kellus for the Geoccult discipline of Gramarie? I've always liked that mutation (when I play an evolutionist, I plan on taking plant mutator feet and two mutations just to get Grove) and adding in Geoccult mechanics would only make more fun.

I don't think it would be wise to just have Grove provide a free geoccult pole or something of the like.

However, people ask so much for that that I caved in and started working on some stuff.

But the relationships I am making are different from what you would expect. I am planning five prestige classes, each relating one of the special mutation lists to one discipline of gramarie. Plants will relate to Yggdratecture.

You can guess Construct, Elemental, Outsider and Undead if you want. As a hint, Biollurgy will not be included in any of the prestige classes.

[Omnicrat]

I don't think it would be wise to just have Grove provide a free geoccult pole or something of the like.

However, people ask so much for that that I caved in and started working on some stuff.

But the relationships I am making are different from what you would expect. I am planning five prestige classes, each relating one of the special mutation lists to one discipline of gramarie. Plants will relate to Yggdratecture.

You can guess Construct, Elemental, Outsider and Undead if you want. As a hint, Biollurgy will not be included in any of the prestige classes.

With Plants being Yggdratecture (in stead of Outsiders being Yggdratecture and Plants being Geoccultism) I don't think any guesses could be accurately made. But I guess outsider could be alchemetry, with elemental being arcanitecture. Maybe construct is heuristics?

[Draken]

With Plants being Yggdratecture (in stead of Outsiders being Yggdratecture and Plants being Geoccultism) I don't think any guesses could be accurately made. But I guess outsider could be alchemetry, with elemental being arcanitecture. Maybe construct is heuristics?

All wrong guesses and arcanitecture doesn't exist.

[Omnicrat]

All wrong guesses and arcanitecture doesn't exist.

Arcanodynamics. Wow, how did I do that?

[Draken]

One right guess then! Elemental and Arcanodynamics. That will likely be the last one I do, however. And given that I travel tomorrow, that won't be seen until next year.

[Omnicrat]

One right guess then! Elemental and Arcanodynamics. That will likely be the last one I do, however. And given that I travel tomorrow, that won't be seen until next year.

Yay! One right! Also, not till next year sounds bad, but thats less than 3 weeks.

[inuyasha]

I love this class, but the only thing I have a problem with is the spell like ability mutation.

Once you get to 17th level do you think an at will 0 level spell will really make a difference? (except for cure minor wounds of course but even then it's really slow and you could be attacked by wandering monsters) and same with 1st level spells and the level that they become at will. Other than that little thing though I find this class amazing.

[ShadowFireLance]

Biollurgy will not be included in any of the prestige classes.


What.
....:smallannoyed:.......:smallmad:.......:smallfu rious:
WHY?

[Draken]

I love this class, but the only thing I have a problem with is the spell like ability mutation.

Once you get to 17th level do you think an at will 0 level spell will really make a difference? (except for cure minor wounds of course but even then it's really slow and you could be attacked by wandering monsters) and same with 1st level spells and the level that they become at will. Other than that little thing though I find this class amazing.

It is just how the progression goes, truth be said. I frankly doubt anyone would even take a cantrip as a spell-like ability to begin with.


What.
....:smallannoyed:.......:smallmad:.......:smallfu rious:
WHY?

Lack of thematic contingency with the current plan, mostly. Also, there will simply not be class features including it, not a prohibition to actually take it.

[radmelon]

All wrong guesses and arcanitecture doesn't exist.

It should though.

[Omnicrat]

It is just how the progression goes, truth be said. I frankly doubt anyone would even take a cantrip as a spell-like ability to begin with.

I think I wanted prestidigitation to make my created food taste good...

addendum:
It should though.

Acanitect is a new PrC.

[radmelon]

It should be a discipline as well. Also, a base class, PrC, ACF, diety, creature, maneuver, spell, and power. And magic item. Because it sounds awesome.:smallcool:

...And because I forgot that fact.

[inuyasha]

I also think there needs to be a way to maybe reverse the effects of the instant regrowth terratomorphism, making the land fertile again and not super dry and chalky. maybe this is like a few weeks or a month of working or maybe some magical ingridients need to be mixed in, or just the damn miracle grow that created assassin vines needs to be added, I dont know, but I think there needs to be a way :smallsmile:

[Draken]

I also think there needs to be a way to maybe reverse the effects of the instant regrowth terratomorphism, making the land fertile again and not super dry and chalky. maybe this is like a few weeks or a month of working or maybe some magical ingridients need to be mixed in, or just the damn miracle grow that created assassin vines needs to be added, I dont know, but I think there needs to be a way :smallsmile:

It is not dry and chalky, merely barren and inadequate for agriculture, for the most part.

The land should fully recover on its own in about an year. Nondescript efforts that would require a full ruleset for farming would probably include a few means of restoring exhausted land.

[Gideon Falcon]

Something to think about with plant and elemental mutations: If you start out as one of those types, and then take, say, the monstrous humanoid ascendancy, do you lose the benefits of your type?

[Draken]

Something to think about with plant and elemental mutations: If you start out as one of those types, and then take, say, the monstrous humanoid ascendancy, do you lose the benefits of your type?

Yes.

Undead and Construct get a special pass due to thematic reasons, mostly.

[Gideon Falcon]

Hm. Seems a bummer. Plant suddenly become vulnerable to sneak attacks and such? Or Elementals, just because they weren't interested in having a demiplane of their own?
Anyway, I'm still confused as to the purpose of the extrude docent ability, especially as a level VI taratamorphism. So you have a bunch of sentient tchochkies, now what? What do they do? They don't have any other properties, besides the ability to possess people.

[Draken]

Hm. Seems a bummer. Plant suddenly become vulnerable to sneak attacks and such? Or Elementals, just because they weren't interested in having a demiplane of their own?
Anyway, I'm still confused as to the purpose of the extrude docent ability, especially as a level VI taratamorphism. So you have a bunch of sentient tchochkies, now what? What do they do? They don't have any other properties, besides the ability to possess people.

I am considering expanding their skill repertoire to all of the evolutionist's skills, actually, I was being somewhat conservative when I first wrote the teratomorphism.

The docents provide two basic benefits for the time being, they create a very long range communications network, and they can do skill checks separately from you, not as well as you, pretty likely, but very well nonetheless.

Their side-benefit, is that if they take over a wearer (which has to be a construct or someone UMDing the docent), you basically get a potentially useful, absolutely loyal minion capable of individualized decision-making that thinks exactly like you do. So by all means, an extra body.

[Gideon Falcon]

That does make some more sense. However, if the docents provide extra bodies, shouldn't they include some sort of revival clause if the main body dies, ala brainiac? Some method of using your minions to create a new body?
It would, of course, need major limitations, such as monetary and/or XP cost, so as to not tread on the toes of Planar Renewal and Plant Perfection.

[Zireael]

The class is amazing! I seriously have to make a list of my favs on GITP board.

On the topic of storing the brain if the main body dies - please introduce a way to do this. Maybe some cloning?

[J-H]

I can't find the part where you address how to calculate DCs for the SLAs. Can you expand on that a bit, please?


Breath Weapon
Prerequisite: Elemental resistance.
Ability Score: Constitution
Benefit: The evolutionist can breathe out an area elemental attack as a standard action. This attack deals 1d6 points of damage per mutator level (max: 10d6) to all creatures in a cone or in a line (the area is chosen upon taking the mutation) in front of the evolutionist, a reflex save halves the damage dealt. A cone breath has a length of the 10 ft., plus 5 ft. per two mutator levels, a line has a length of 20 ft, plus 5 ft. per mutator level. Once the evolutionist uses his breath weapon, he must wait five rounds before using it again. For each size category the evolutionist has above medium, the length of a cone increases by 20 feet and the length of a line increases by 30 feet.
The breath weapon’s damage type must be one the evolutionist has resistance or immunity to, and is chosen at the moment the mutation is taken.
Further Mutations: Each time this mutation is taken after the first, the evolutionist can chose to gain a new, separate breath weapon (with its own cooldown), the evolutionist cannot have more than one breath weapon of any one damage type. The evolutionist may also choose to increase the maximum damage of one existing breath weapon by 10d6 or reduce the cooldown of one existing breath weapon by one round, to a minimum of two rounds.
Is this reflex save for half? If so, how is the DC calculated?


Charm
Prerequisite: -
Ability Score: Charisma
Benefit: The evolutionist can attempt to charm a creature of any type within 100 ft. as a standard action. This effect works exactly like the Charm Person spell, except for its range, save DC and possible targets. The charm lasts for 24 hours.
Further Mutations: Each time this mutation is taken, its duration increases by 24 hours.
How often can this be used, and how do you calculate the DCs?

[Volthawk]

I can't find the part where you address how to calculate DCs for the SLAs. Can you expand on that a bit, please?


Is this reflex save for half? If so, how is the DC calculated?


How often can this be used, and how do you calculate the DCs?

Oh general DC calculation, right at the beginning of the mutation section:

Mutator level also determines the power of some mutations, and whenever a mutation allows a save, the DC is 10 + half the character’s mutator level + relevant ability modifier (see the specific mutation for this)

On the breath weapon's save, from the mutation description:

a reflex save halves the damage dealt

As for Charm, it seems to be at-will, which is pretty damn good.

[tonberrian]

Can someone explain the natural weapon cap? Say I want to have prehensile doom hair, and apply the Tentacles mutation to represent it. Now, I'm limited to "four natural weapons gained through this mutation". Does that mean four total tentacles? Or, is it four purchases of the Tentacle mutation, which adds up to 8 tentacles, since I buy two Tentacles with each purchase?

Edit: Also what would I have to purchase to make them grip things like they were hands?

[Omnicrat]

How does grove interact with geoccult poles? Can I set a grove up in any terrain type? Does my grove give me control over climate and natural bodies?

[Draken]

Can someone explain the natural weapon cap? Say I want to have prehensile doom hair, and apply the Tentacles mutation to represent it. Now, I'm limited to "four natural weapons gained through this mutation". Does that mean four total tentacles? Or, is it four purchases of the Tentacle mutation, which adds up to 8 tentacles, since I buy two Tentacles with each purchase?

Edit: Also what would I have to purchase to make them grip things like they were hands?

There are two limits at work here, one is the limit of how many natural attacks (gained through the mutation) you can use in a full attack, and the other limit is how many tentacles you can have from the mutation.

The first limit is four plus one, where the four refers to [Claws], [Slams] and [Tentacles] (you can make up to four attacks with any combination of these natural weapons, GAINED WITH MUTATIONS, on any given full attack) and the one refers to [Bite], [Gore] and Tail (same rules as stated before).

It is worth remembering that these limits only apply to natural attacks gained with mutations, all natural attacks gained from other sources (race, totemist, ozodrin, etc) remain useable beyond this limit.

As for the tentacles-as-hands thing, go check Savage Species.

-----

Grove does not give you control of the climate or natural bodies and, by default, has absolutely no interaction with geoccult poles. A geoccult pole will change the landscape but it will not interfere with the grove itself.

The grove will not change, by itself, to match your particular themes, whatever they might be, that is where Budding Creation comes in, for the most part. I might make more Grove abilities that allow the evolutionist to fill his grove with other things (similar to Miasma), such as an Energy Aura, the effects of Cataclysm Heart, empowering your bound servants with choice construct mutations and infusions you have as SLAs, etc.

But all that will have to wait another five days at least.

[EpsilRon]

I know this is a bit of a foolish question but... a warforged evolutionist doesn't need to take the construct feat right?

[Volthawk]

I know this is a bit of a foolish question but... a warforged evolutionist doesn't need to take the construct feat right?

Nope, warforged are Constructs (the living construct subtype doesn't change that), so they have free access.

[EpsilRon]

Alrighty, thank you very much for the swift response.

[Draken]

Extremely Important first changelog of 2013.

Header quote has been changed.

[Milo v3]

The quotation marks are funny.

[Draken]

Extremely Important second changelog of 2013.

Quotation marks fixed.

[Rizban]

Just something I noticed, you misspelled "strength" under the abilities section in the first post.

[tonberrian]

Why are Psi-Like abilities available earlier and usable more often than Spell-Like Abilities of the same level?

[Draken]

Why are Psi-Like abilities available earlier and usable more often than Spell-Like Abilities of the same level?

They force a bit more MAD, since they are Int based for DCs.

Other than that, it is mostly a small issue with the spell-like ability list being much more expansive.

[Draken]

Double Post and Third Changelog of 2013.

Elemental Lance has been redesigned.

Negaton Blast has a few new lines of text to it.

[Gideon Falcon]

I've got a couple of Taratamorphism and mutation ideas, so I'll just leave them here.

Spell Siphoning (Spell-like Ability)
Prerequisites: Dispel Magic, Spell Resistance, Spell Absorption or Spell Reversal or similar
Ability Score: Charisma
When you use Dispel Magic successfully, you may activate a single mutation which utilizes spell resistance as a free action. Spell Reversal may only be used on a successful counterspell. For example, an Evolutionist with this mutation dispells a Displacement spell successfully. This Evolutionist also has the Spell Absorption and Spell Containment mutations. As a free action, he may choose to either gain six hit points or store the three spell levels for later use.

Breath Weapon (Supernatural, Undead)
Ability Score: Charisma
Benefit: Your Breath Weapon is based on Charisma rather than Constitution. In addition, you may use Negative Energy as an option for a Breath Weapon, provided you have the Negaton Shield mutation. Negative Energy breath weapons deal damage in d4's.
Special: This is an improvement to the Breath Weapon mutation afforded by the Undead Mutation list, not a separate mutation. If you have access to the Elemental mutation list, this also affects the Elemental Bomb mutation.

Undead Taratamorph V: Negaton Supremacy:
Whenever you deal Negative Energy damage, it ignores resistances to Negative Energy damage, and immunities (such as from Death Ward) only reduce it by half. In addition, you may choose to deal half damage to undead rather than healing them.

[Rizban]

On Negaton Blast, in 3.5 "attack action" was replaced with "standard action," which it already is. I'm not sure if you were intending to allow it as a move action or as part of a full attack. Some clarity on this is definitely needed.

[Necroticplague]

On Negaton Blast, in 3.5 "attack action" was replaced with "standard action," which it already is. I'm not sure if you were intending to allow it as a move action or as part of a full attack. Some clarity on this is definitely needed.

I'm pretty sure its the other way around. You can get one attack action as a standard action, but a full-round attack gives you multiple attack actions. Essentially, what he's doing is making is possible to use multiple times on a full attack, and use it on an AoO.

[Draken]

As necrotic said. An attack action is an action that you can get multiples of as part of a full attack.

However, negaton blast cannot be used for AoOs, since it is a ranged attack and as such it doesn't threaten an area.

[Rizban]

That was my guess. I just want to point out that 3.0 used the terms "attack action" and "partial action." In 3.5, this termonology changed to "standard action" and "move action" respectively.

In 3.5, the conventional wording for what you're trying to say is, "This ability may be used as part of a full-attack." That wording is standard and clears up ambiguity. If you only intend to allow it multiple times a turn that is fine. If it is limited to once per turn, the wording is changed to "... used, once per turn, as part..."

[Necroticplague]

That was my guess. I just want to point out that 3.0 used the terms "attack action" and "partial action." In 3.5, this termonology changed to "standard action" and "move action" respectively.

In 3.5, the conventional wording for what you're trying to say is, "This ability may be used as part of a full-attack." That wording is standard and clears up ambiguity. If you only intend to allow it multiple times a turn that is fine. If it is limited to once per turn, the wording is changed to "... used, once per turn, as part..."

um, a "partial action" means "a standard or a move, but not both". Its something you're limited to, as in Slow. "Standard action"=/=attack action. If you make an attack outside of your turn, it is still an attack action (common example being AoO, but a use of snakes swiftness can also do so).You can do stuff other than attack with a standard action (most spells are standard).

[tonberrian]

Are you supposed to get a Teratomorphism at level 20? It follows the progression outlined in the ability, but doesn't appear on the table.

[Draken]

Are you supposed to get a Teratomorphism at level 20? It follows the progression outlined in the ability, but doesn't appear on the table.

No. This has been clarified.

Edits:

Changelog - 13/01/2013

Spell-like Abilities: Daily uses clarified.
Psi-like Abilities: Daily uses clarified. Manifester levels lower than minimum needed for (virtual) power point expenditure clarified. Scaling changed: Higher level powers now become avaiable considerably later.

[inuyasha]

under mutant perfection under monstrous humanoid it says the evolutionist gets a +5 on all skill checks, does this include knowledge, diplomacy, perform, and other things like that?

[Milo v3]

under mutant perfection under monstrous humanoid it says the evolutionist gets a +5 on all skill checks, does this include knowledge, diplomacy, perform, and other things like that?

All those are skill checks so yes.

[inuyasha]

All those are skill checks so yes.

I just dont think that makes much sense though...
so that means since Im a 20th level monstrous humanoid evolutionist I have a +5 bonus on diplomacy checks even though Im a big monster with claws horns, firebreath, and scary wings?

[Rizban]

Yes, that's correct. You may be super scary, but you have a little bit of a bonus when dealing with others. Maybe it's because you're scary?

[Draken]

You don't need to be scary, mind you. You can very well boast a feral beauty or just be plain old pretty, if you want.

The point of the perfection is that it makes you strong, agile, cunning. It does that in the most simple and direct maner possible, with a flat bonus to pretty much everything.

[inuyasha]

oh ok, I get it now :smallbiggrin:

[Rizban]

I've built a rather fun evolutionist character who looks exactly as he did before he started taking mutations. All of his mutations were selected based on the concept of warping himself as far as possible without it being apparent.

[tonberrian]

Is stench supposed to be a continuous effect or not? The ability as written seems to be instantaneous (not the duration of the sickening, but how long the scent itself lasts), activated by a swift action, but Fragrance refers to having both active at the same time?

[Draken]

Stench is supposed to be an on/off thing. This has been clarified.

[inuyasha]

I just realised...if Ii make NPCs of this class they can be new monsters for a campaign, the players wont know that their NPCs :O DRAKEN YOU ARE AWESOME!

also what would epic proggression for an evolutionist be (sorry if this has already been asked)

EDIT: also 2 quick questions, when your type changes from becoming 10th level does your HD change? and also if you take natural weapons to increase damage does it increase damage for all attacks of that type you just chose or just one (or two in the case of claws, tentacles, and slams) of them?

[Draken]

I just realised...if Ii make NPCs of this class they can be new monsters for a campaign, the players wont know that their NPCs :O DRAKEN YOU ARE AWESOME!

also what would epic proggression for an evolutionist be (sorry if this has already been asked)

EDIT: also quick question, when your type changes from becoming 10th level does your HD change?

It doesn't change, whenever an effect that changes type changes your HD (mostly templates) it is called out explicitly. Class features never change HD, unless they involve undeath, usually.

There is an epic progression somewhere in the thread, I will move it over to the feats session in a few hours.

[inuyasha]

also if you take natural weapons to increase damage does it increase damage for all attacks of that type you just chose or just one (or two in the case of claws, tentacles, and slams) of them?

I must have added the second question after you responded

[Draken]

I must have added the second question after you responded

It increases the damage of all attacks of the chosen type that you have.

Also, Epic Evolutionist has been added to the feats and prestige classes post.

[Milo v3]

Changing your type does actually affect your HD. But not your HD from classes, only racial HD.

[Draken]

Changing your type does actually affect your HD. But not your HD from classes, only racial HD.

Not always. Several templates that incur creature type change, such as Half-Fiend, Celestial Creature, Pseudonatural, etc. don't change HD. Usually only templates that change type into undead or construct cause a change of HD, but then they usually stick to die size only, and all other aspects remain unchanged.

[inuyasha]

so if I become undead with this class my HD doesnt change?

[Draken]

so if I become undead with this class my HD doesnt change?

No, because if you do that you get a special subtype and keep your con score.

[inuyasha]

under the gaze attack mutation shouldnt you be able to increase the duration of the gazes affects by taking the mutation more than once?

sorry for all the nitpicks and questions lately...Im sure it must be annoying :smallredface:

[tonberrian]

Is there any chance you could open up the Slime mutation to more elemental types, not necessarily keeping the slime aspect? There are a number of similar abilities for the other elements, such as Remorhaz's Heat ability, which work similarly.

Also, can the Warped Visage ability's miss chance be trumped by True Seeing?

[Draken]

Is there any chance you could open up the Slime mutation to more elemental types, not necessarily keeping the slime aspect? There are a number of similar abilities for the other elements, such as Remorhaz's Heat ability, which work similarly.

Also, can the Warped Visage ability's miss chance be trumped by True Seeing?

I had been meaning to change these two, thanks for making me remember.

Changelog 21/01/2013 - Aka, the same date right on top of this post. Why did I even put a date here.

Slime - Damage increased to 2d6. Damage increase from further mutations also increased to 2d6. No longer limited to acid damage.

Elemental Nimbus - Damage is now 1d6 per two mutator levels, up from 1d6 per three mutator levels.

Warped Visage - Now gives 10% miss chance per mutation, up from 5% per mutation, maximum miss chance remains 50%. True Seeing now pierces the effect.

[Rizban]

Does the Evolve Skills mutation's +1 skill point/level apply to all classes or only to classes with a mutator level?

[ArkenBrony]

one issue i see between natural invisibility, and warped visage.
natural invisibility gives greater invisibility after 3 mutations, and at one mutation per 6 levels would require level 13. warped visage is 1 mutation per 3 levels, so 5 mutations to get the concealment would require also level 13. the end result of natural invisibility is 3 mutations, permanent invisibility, and therefore a 50% concealment or warped visages 5 mutations, and only 50% concealment, no extra stuff like invisibility.

[DiGiacomon]

Plant

Grove [Spell-like]
Prerequisite: Verdant Servant, Mutator level 9.
Ability Score: None
Benefit: The evolutionist can take control of an area with a radius of 5 feet per mutator level, creating a link between him and the location, activating this ability requires one hour of uninterrupted work, but its duration is permanent afterwards. His ability can be activated repeatedly to increase the radius of the grove by 5 feet per mutator level each time, to a maximum radius of 1 mile, however, the evolutionist can only have one grove at any given time, and using this ability out of the boundaries of an existing grove breaks the connection with the old one at the same time it creates a new one. The expansion of the grove can be noticed with a Spellcraft check, DC 25. The grove does not persist through the evolutionist’s death.
The evolutionist has a few benefits regarding his grove. First, any structures he places on a grove using Budding Creation have a permanent duration. Second, the evolutionist can link up to two verdant servants to his grove, these servants cannot leave the limits of the grove, but they do not count towards his limit. Third, the evolutionist gains two abilities chosen from the following list:

Bounty (Requires Nourishing Flora mutation): The evolutionist’s grove creates two produce per mutator level (identical to the Nourishing flora mutation), this produce is separate from what grows on the evolutionist’s own body. In addition, the grove produces an additional source of excellent nourishment, available once per day, that works as a Heroes’ Feast spell with a caster level equal to the character’s mutation level.
Miasma (requires Fragrance mutation): As a swift action, the evolutionist can fill his grove with the effects of his fragrance, this ability also applies to the Stench mutation if the evolutionist has it, and follows the same interaction rules described in fragrance.
Communion: As a standard action, the evolutionist can gain the benefits of the Commune With Nature spell with regards to the whole area of his grove.
Unity (Requires Roots teratomorphism): The evolutionist can take root or uproot in his grove as a free action, but no more than once per round. While rooted in his grove, each instance of this mutation is considered a teratomorphism when calculating the benefits of the roots teratomorphism, and offensive roots teratomorphism.
Generous Land (Requires Regrowth teratomorphism): When using the regrowth teratomorphism on his grove, the evolutionist does not drain the area he is in of all its resources and may repeatedly use regrowth on the same spot.
Verdant Host: The evolutionist can link an additional two verdant servants to the grove. This ability can be taken multiple times.
Living Fortress: All structures built with Budding Creation that are located inside a grove recover one hit point per mutator level every round.

Further Mutations: Each time this mutation is taken, the evolutionist may choose one additional ability from the above list. This mutation can be taken once per six mutator levels.




Long admireey of class, fyi the grove mutation under bounty requires nourishing flora not Nourishment as it was changed to.

Thanks a bunch for that change so I can disease my people.

[Draken]

Does the Evolve Skills mutation's +1 skill point/level apply to all classes or only to classes with a mutator level?

Evolve Skills now advances by mutator level, not class level.


one issue i see between natural invisibility, and warped visage.
natural invisibility gives greater invisibility after 3 mutations, and at one mutation per 6 levels would require level 13. warped visage is 1 mutation per 3 levels, so 5 mutations to get the concealment would require also level 13. the end result of natural invisibility is 3 mutations, permanent invisibility, and therefore a 50% concealment or warped visages 5 mutations, and only 50% concealment, no extra stuff like invisibility.

Natural Invisibility's first upgrade has been changed to conform to this. The miss chance eventually does get to 50% but only at level 18 now.


Long admireey of class, fyi the grove mutation under bounty requires nourishing flora not Nourishment as it was changed to.

Thanks a bunch for that change so I can disease my people.

It has been fixed! And glad to provide a class adequately capable of spreading that wonderful superhuman disease called love.

[ArkenBrony]

Natural Invisibility's first upgrade has been changed to conform to this. The miss chance eventually does get to 50% but only at level 18 now.

that was a good change, but what i meant was that greater invisibility as the spell gives 50% concealment to those that know where you are due to being hit or something, so it is the effects of greater invisibility that made it a better mutation

[tonberrian]

Is it intentional that Overdrive's self-damage can be defeated by using Energy Resistance?

[Necroticplague]

Is it intentional that Overdrive's self-damage can be defeated by using Energy Resistance?

Or turned to healing using Elemental Renewal.

[Draken]

that was a good change, but what i meant was that greater invisibility as the spell gives 50% concealment to those that know where you are due to being hit or something, so it is the effects of greater invisibility that made it a better mutation

There is shamefully nothing I can do in that regard. Some options are simply better than others by their own nature.


Is it intentional that Overdrive's self-damage can be defeated by using Energy Resistance?


Or turned to healing using Elemental Renewal.

Yes, it is intentional.

Overdrive is essentially Haste. It is a great buff, but hardly in need of a downside for balancing purposes. The self-damage is mostly thematic, and has a few uses too, as indicated.

[EdroGrimshell]

I used a slight variation of it for my Corpse Class, it deals untyped damage that increases the longer it's used. It's fluffed as the body tearing itself apart over time from the exertion.

[tonberrian]

Yes, it is intentional.

Overdrive is essentially Haste. It is a great buff, but hardly in need of a downside for balancing purposes. The self-damage is mostly thematic, and has a few uses too, as indicated.

Hmm. *tries to find ways to sneak it into current build*

[Rizban]

Spellward: The evolutionist gains immunity to spells of a level up to his highest available teratomorphism that allow spell resistance. This teratomorphism otherwise works as a form of spell resistance with an arbitrary value.Can this be turned on/off at will, or are you just permanently immune? Perhaps an ability to suppress it so that your allies can repair you would be acceptable.

1After going back through the thread again...

Evolutionist/High Evolutionary/Thrallherd
I want to play one.

[Draken]

Can this be turned on/off at will, or are you just permanently immune? Perhaps an ability to suppress it so that your allies can repair you would be acceptable.

1After going back through the thread again...

Evolutionist/High Evolutionary/Thrallherd
I want to play one.

"Otherwise works as spell resistance with an arbitrary value."

[Rizban]

That is what I thought that line meant, but I wasn't entirely sure. Thank you for the clarification.

[Uncle Pine]

How is Evolve Resilience intended to work with multiclass characters? As it's written it counts all of your levels, but I'm not sure if this is intentional.

[Draken]

It is intentional. Of the innate mutations, Evolve Skills is the odd one out, in this case, because it relies on mutator level for more than simply the number of times it can be taken.

Also, I changed Evolve Aptitude to give four skill points instead of two.

[Omnicrat]

Are those evolutionist/gramarist PrCs still coming?

[Draken]

Are those evolutionist/gramarist PrCs still coming?

Slow and steady.

[Omnicrat]

I wrote up a knack (basically a more powerful NPC class and quasi-gestalt) for the evolutionist and would like to know your thoughts.

url to homebrew: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253278

[ShadowFireLance]

Question, If I was, Say a Were-thing, Would I loose my Mutations if I was in Hybrid Form?

[Draken]

Question, If I was, Say a Were-thing, Would I loose my Mutations if I was in Hybrid Form?

I would treat all three forms of a lyncanthrope as his natural forms and let him keep his mutations. But this is a call that I would leave to Nyarlatothep.

I mean, to specific DMs.

[ShadowFireLance]

I would treat all three forms of a lyncanthrope as his natural forms and let him keep his mutations. But this is a call that I would leave to Nyarlatothep.

I mean, to specific DMs.

Why Nyarlatothep? I mean, Cthulhu is much better..
Though, if you mean't the DM...Then....xD
:smallwink:

[Draken]

Why Nyarlatothep? I mean, Cthulhu is much better..
Though, if you mean't the DM...Then....xD
:smallwink:

You called my name in that thread. Is it not reasonable to expect for me to have found it? And lurked around?

I have evolved all of the Extra Senses.

All of them.

[inuyasha]

I have one question Mr. nyarlatothep (sorry Im a little rusty with my lovecraftian) if I had planar renewal could I revive myself on a demiplane that a party member had created with genesis?

[Draken]

I have one question Mr. nyarlatothep (sorry Im a little rusty with my lovecraftian) if I had planar renewal could I revive myself on a demiplane that a party member had created with genesis?

That was a joke specific to Shadow because I thought the question pertained to a game in which he built an evo and is being DM'd by the user nyarlathotep.

And yes, you can revive in a demiplane made by you or your allies.

[inuyasha]

That was a joke specific to Shadow because I thought the question pertained to a game in which he built an evo and is being DM'd by the user nyarlathotep.

And yes, you can revive in a demiplane made by you or your allies.

OH sorry I didnt understand :smalleek:

and yaay :D
I wanted to ask because I have made a level 10 evo level 10 progneter (the prestige class, hope I spelled it right) and he is basically making a mini material plane and he is making his own life forms to inhabit it :D:smalltongue:

[Gideon Falcon]

As written, Planar renewal does not work on the material plane.

[inuyasha]

I know, but my party is making a demiplane that they will be filling with life they have created. Thats why I called it the mini-material plane.
I have 5 characters:
Prometheus: guy whos making land creatures (mammalians and humanoids)
Reptiscis: guy whos making lizards and fish
aviarus: bird chick
semen (its latin for seed, I was dared, get off my back): making plants
and xenothus: making abberants

[Draken]

As written, Planar renewal does not work on the material plane.

It does if you belong to the right race. Bariaur, Buomman, Mephling, Neraphim, Shadowswift, Spiker and Wildren are examples of player races that gain the Extraplanar subtype when they are in the material plane. Of that list, all but Buomman, Mephlings and Spikers gain free access to the outsider list too.

[Gideon Falcon]

Still, it's unlikely that you're going to be one of those races, and for anyone else, it ruins half the point of the taratamorphism if it only works on extraplanar adventures. It seems like a needless restriction that stomps on everyone's toes than a necessary balance rule.

[Draken]

Still, it's unlikely that you're going to be one of those races, and for anyone else, it ruins half the point of the taratamorphism if it only works on extraplanar adventures. It seems like a needless restriction that stomps on everyone's toes than a necessary balance rule.

Planar Renewal is an adaptation of the (semi-obscure and possibly setitng-specific) rule that Outsiders killed out of their home planes revive in their home planes.

It is supposed to be mainly of use to those who are running extraplanar adventures.

[Rizban]

The star elves from Forgotten Realms: Unapproachable East and the dusklings from Magic of Incarnum both are LA+0 and have the extraplanar subtype. They are humanoid and fey respectively, so they'll need the appropriate feat, but planar renewal would work for them while they are on the material plane, allowing them to revive elsewhere.

[Gideon Falcon]

I still think it's kind of useless for most characters. I don't want to offend, but I don't think that having a few cases where it's not completely irrelevant excuses it for being kind of cheap. I don't know, maybe I'm just over attached to it's use in normal gameplay.

[Draken]

I made a few changes to Planar Apotheosis and added an entry to the Outsider Mutant Ascendancy that should help diminish such concerns.

[Hanuman]

Does planar renewal effect semi-planes such as player-made quori dreamspace?

[Draken]

Does planar renewal effect semi-planes such as player-made quori dreamspace?

I think you are asking if it works on said planes, because PR does nothing to the planes themselves.

If you get (Extraplanar) on a plane, then Planar Renewal will trigger if you die in that place. It will then proceed to drag your souls spiralling into a crash-course across the Astral Plane for five days before uncerimoniously forging a new body for it in a plane where you do not get the Extraplanar subtype and leaving you naked and alone somewhere in that plane.

[Draken]

Small changelog:

Changed:

Spines: No longer requires Quills. Also, treated as a thrown weapon (so it can be used with feats such as Brutal Throw and Power Throw).

High Evolutionary
- Evolutionary Touch: mutation limit still governed by HE's mutator level, but the mutation power is determined by the target's HD.

Added:

Extraordinaire:
Ink: Create total an area of concealment underwater or blind a target on dry land.
Jet: Never use the withdraw action again.
Sprint: Charge from fireball range.

Outsider:
Abduction: Teleport away with an enemy.

[tonberrian]

The Archon Teratomorphism makes you vulnerable to your own elemental attacks. Like your own energy auras.

Oddly enough, I don't think it allows you to pierce your own immunities with the overclocking construct mutation.

[Draken]

Ok, elemental archon has been edited so that it doesn't ignore your own resistances/immunities (and Elemental Renewal has been changed so that it does).

And while I didn't think it was needed. I have made explicit that Elemental Nimbus and Elemental Aura do not damage the user. :smallannoyed:

Also, made a few changes to Cataclysm Heart (Fire and Air). Their overall effects are mostly unchanged.

[tonberrian]

Also, what are the limits on Summon? It seems really powerful, because it seems to, if you're still attuned to the Material Plane, allow you to summon any mortal you want and force them to do your bidding. Might I suggest having it summon outsiders with an alignment subtype that matches one of your alignment components?

[Draken]

Also, what are the limits on Summon? It seems really powerful, because it seems to, if you're still attuned to the Material Plane, allow you to summon any mortal you want and force them to do your bidding. Might I suggest having it summon outsiders with an alignment subtype that matches one of your alignment components?

Yeah. There was a bigger issue with Summon actually. It's writing was keyed to the function of a teratomorphism that never made it to live (Planar Attunement was it). I have changed it to an outsider of your alignment. Also changed it from preventing genies from granting wishes to prevent anything from granting wishes.

[Zireael]

Ink, Jet and Abduction sound really neat!

[tonberrian]

Ink is really powerful. Have you heard any of the fuss about the spell Blinding Spittle (Spell Compendium)? This is that but better, basically. Also, could you put the action for activating the Ink up at the beginning? It's a little confusing right after the action for removing it.

Also, is there any provisions for exotic Evolutionists (Outsiders mostly) that change their type via the class and still have access to their mutation list?

[Draken]

Ink is really powerful. Have you heard any of the fuss about the spell Blinding Spittle (Spell Compendium)? This is that but better, basically. Also, could you put the action for activating the Ink up at the beginning? It's a little confusing right after the action for removing it.

Also, is there any provisions for exotic Evolutionists (Outsiders mostly) that change their type via the class and still have access to their mutation list?

Never heard any fuss about it but just went to check the spell. Changed Ink's spit to require only a standard action to clean and moved the activation action to the beggining.

As for the second, most effects that change type provide the (Augmented) subtype, which is sufficient to grant access to the special lists.

Other changes:

Skill bonus innate mutations - They have all been changed so that you can't dump massive ammounts of mutations into them for deranged skill bonuses in case you can get away with it. This change was brought to you by strawberryman making a dungeon full of evolutionists, some of which can't be stealthed past or can't lose a social fight.

On the plus side, they provide better benefits for lesser investments now.

Solar Power Teratomorphisms - Changed from a rage-like effect to a power boost dependant on external conditions.

[tonberrian]

Okay, the damage reduction mutation is weird. It doesn't allow you to progress any damage reduction except those pierced by magic, which means most racial DR simply can't be enhanced by it. (A particularly stupid DM might not even allow you to progress the DR granted by it once you have one of the mutations that adds an additional qualifier to it, because by technicality that means that it's no longer pierced by just magic.) Also, it can only progress one type of DR at a time, so if you end up with different types of DR from race, class, feats, what have you, you only get to enhance one.

I'd suggest something that gives you DR/Magic, or increases all your DR that is defeated by something (ie. not DR/-) by 3 should you already have damage reduction. The improved DR mutation in the Elemental section is fine.

[Draken]

Okay, the damage reduction mutation is weird. It doesn't allow you to progress any damage reduction except those pierced by magic, which means most racial DR simply can't be enhanced by it. (A particularly stupid DM might not even allow you to progress the DR granted by it once you have one of the mutations that adds an additional qualifier to it, because by technicality that means that it's no longer pierced by just magic.) Also, it can only progress one type of DR at a time, so if you end up with different types of DR from race, class, feats, what have you, you only get to enhance one.

I'd suggest something that gives you DR/Magic, or increases all your DR that is defeated by something (ie. not DR/-) by 3 should you already have damage reduction. The improved DR mutation in the Elemental section is fine.

I have just added a huge special entry to adress this.

Blargh.

[Omnicrat]

There is a (honestly really OP) modified evolutionist game where the PCs are superheros in modern day if anyone is interested.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14846080#post14846080

[Draken]

There is a (honestly really OP) modified evolutionist game where the PCs are superheros in modern day if anyone is interested.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14846080#post14846080

One extra mutation per level is a considerable boost but not really OP. The teratomorph substitution mechanic may be troublesome, however.

The Limitless mutation is a huge (and frankly pointless) sink - edit or at best a method for acquiring a later ability early. The Skill Boost mutation is a massive sink that is objectively inferior to a most skill mutations or the ability score increase mutations. The Mimic acf is... Kind of a boring class feature, all said.

[Rizban]

One extra mutation per level is a considerable boost but not really OP. The teratomorph substitution mechanic may be troublesome, however.

The Limitless mutation is a huge (and frankly pointless) sink - edit or at best a method for acquiring a later ability early. The Skill Boost mutation is a massive sink that is objectively inferior to a most skill mutations or the ability score increase mutations. The Mimic acf is... Kind of a boring class feature, all said.I submitted a character for that game and came to the same conclusions.

We're doing 1st level characters, and I picked up Limitless to grab a mutation unavailable until 2nd. Next level, that is obviously the mutation I'll be trading out since I will no longer need it to qualify for the mutation. In the end, it's effectively pointless, but it did give a tiny power boost to my 1st level guy by giving me a decent ranged attack I wouldn't have otherwise had. It's not something I would recommend including in other games though.

[Omnicrat]

One extra mutation per level is a considerable boost but not really OP. The teratomorph substitution mechanic may be troublesome, however.

The Limitless mutation is a huge (and frankly pointless) sink - edit or at best a method for acquiring a later ability early. The Skill Boost mutation is a massive sink that is objectively inferior to a most skill mutations or the ability score increase mutations. The Mimic acf is... Kind of a boring class feature, all said.

I'm personally using limitless to get +14 to each mental skill and + 14 to each check (as opposed to +7). It also lets someone have 40 SLAs. Granted, the DM is approving all uses of limitless to this effect as far as I am aware (As in if I wanted 40 major combat powers, it would be disallowed. I'm taking positive energy effects and psychic stuff [not win buttons], so I've been given more leeway.) so it shouldn't get too out of hand. So, yeah I think you may have misunderstood limitless.

[Arkhaic]

Limitless was more intended for one trick ponies who have something in their concept not easily modeled using the current mutations. It can be taken twice per level and may apply to itself. It's intended for overspecialized people too.
The teratomorphism exchange is tentative, but it feels like the current batch of players can handle it.
I had some other ideas for the mimic ACF, including one where they gain a portfolio of mutations to choose from based on previous copied abilities, but I lost that.
Skill boost is there for the skills specific to d20 modern, and not much else. Increasing it might be a good idea, though.

[Draken]

I'm personally using limitless to get +14 to each mental skill and + 14 to each check (as opposed to +7). It also lets someone have 40 SLAs. Granted, the DM is approving all uses of limitless to this effect as far as I am aware (As in if I wanted 40 major combat powers, it would be disallowed. I'm taking positive energy effects and psychic stuff [not win buttons], so I've been given more leeway.) so it shouldn't get too out of hand. So, yeah I think you may have misunderstood limitless.

You won't manage to do it.

To get that +14* to each mental skill you will need a Mutator level of 37 for each of the three mutations that improve your mental ability scores. Which means 17 instances of Limitless for each, to a total of 51 mutations spent on Limitless, followed by 42 mutations spent on the relevant mental ability score enhancers. Totaling 93 mutations. This is well within the potential maximum for the evolutionist before the 20 mutation boost, but leaves a relatively minimal ammount of mutations for other purposes.

All in all, it is quite simply too much expense for too little gain.

*The actual gain is +21 due to the bonus from the increased ability score modifier.

I'm not saying that limitless isn't useable. It certainly is. But for the most part it really isn't good as anything more than an early-access enabler, like that one Binder feat.

For your skill boost one, I recommend making sets of mutations that boost 2-3 thematically linked skills following the same overall mechanics as the skill booster mutations already in the Innate List, such as Pheromones and Extra Senses.

[Omnicrat]

You won't manage to do it.

To get that +14* to each mental skill you will need a Mutator level of 37 for each of the three mutations that improve your mental ability scores. Which means 17 instances of Limitless for each, to a total of 51 mutations spent on Limitless, followed by 42 mutations spent on the relevant mental ability score enhancers. Totaling 93 mutations. This is well within the potential maximum for the evolutionist before the 20 mutation boost, but leaves a relatively minimal ammount of mutations for other purposes.

All in all, it is quite simply too much expense for too little gain.

*The actual gain is +21 due to the bonus from the increased ability score modifier.

I'm not saying that limitless isn't useable. It certainly is. But for the most part it really isn't good as anything more than an early-access enabler, like that one Binder feat.

For your skill boost one, I recommend making sets of mutations that boost 2-3 thematically linked skills following the same overall mechanics as the skill booster mutations already in the Innate List, such as Pheromones and Extra Senses.

This is the part you are not getting.

Aside from the +1 mutator level, limitless lets you take each mutation twice (four times with limitless) every time it could normally be taken. So, spending one mutation on limitless, I get +2 int at first level and every three levels thereafter (if I keep taking two each time).

edit: Just noticed the DM re-wrote limitless, taking that aspect out. Forget what I said about being op, then.

[Omnicrat]

Just checking, are there mutation slots, or just one mass of mutations? I just realized I've been assuming mutation slots, but I don't think so anymore.

If its not mutation slots, as I thought it was, than, for example, someone with no SLA mutation at first level could take two SLA mutations at second level.

If it is mutation slots, than one could only have 20 SLA mutations if they had taken them at each level, or retrained mutations from past level (though never the same level) that did not previously contain SLA mutations.

Almost positive I've been thinking about it wrong this whole time now...

Edit: as an additional note, that aspect of limitless was never supposed to be in there in the first place, and either it was very poorly worded origionally or I just grossly misread it followed by miscommunication between me and Arkhaic while talking about it.

of course I think of this when I'm working on level 17 of my character...

[Draken]

Just checking, are there mutation slots, or just one mass of mutations? I just realized I've been assuming mutation slots, but I don't think so anymore.

If its not mutation slots, as I thought it was, than, for example, someone with no SLA mutation at first level could take two SLA mutations at second level.

If it is mutation slots, than one could only have 20 SLA mutations if they had taken them at each level, or retrained mutations from past level (though never the same level) that did not previously contain SLA mutations.

Almost positive I've been thinking about it wrong this whole time now...

Edit: as an additional note, that aspect of limitless was never supposed to be in there in the first place, and either it was very poorly worded origionally or I just grossly misread it followed by miscommunication between me and Arkhaic while talking about it.

of course I think of this when I'm working on level 17 of my character...

Just a mass of mutations.

There are slots in the Construct Perfection, but they don't work the way you described.

[Omnicrat]

Just a mass of mutations.

There are slots in the Construct Perfection, but they don't work the way you described.

-sigh- Yeah, that's what I figured. Don't know why I thought mutation slots. On the bright side, I have to do A LOT less fanagling to get the abilities I want, when I want them. On the down side, I have to redo almost everything I've done so far...

[Tesla]

I really love the idea behind this class, and am excited at the idea of playing it in an upcoming campaign. However I had a few questions if it is not too much trouble.

Class Feature Questions
1. This was essentially asked on the first page, but I do not remember seeing an answer to it. Improved Unarmed Strike says that you can treat your unarmed strikes as grouped natural weapons, but does that mean that you get bonus attacks from them that do not conflict with the Natural Weapons mutation limit? Or just that you can take Natural Weapons improving mutations and have them apply to your unarmed strikes?

2. Does Monster Sage apply to Knowledge Devotion?

3. The Mutant Ascendancy age change seems to be very vague and open ended, which does make logical sense. However would a person be able to cease aging entirely with it?

4. What is the starting age?

Further Homebrew Questions
5. What would everyone think about a template that increases the number of mutations gained at each level? Something along the lines of a creature descended from a Progenitor, and thus more accepting of change. I would think at least +1LA for +1 mutation per level, but was hoping for some other views on it.

Thank you to everyone who reads and/or responds to this.

[inuyasha]

Further Homebrew Questions
4. What would everyone think about a template that increases the number of mutations gained at each level? Something along the lines of a creature descended from a Progenitor, and thus more accepting of change. I would think at least +1LA for +1 mutation per level, but was hoping for some other views on it.

Thank you to everyone who reads and/or responds to this.

what about a mutant template? that adds a number of mutations=to HDX3?

[Draken]

I really love the idea behind this class, and am excited at the idea of playing it in an upcoming campaign. However I had a few questions if it is not too much trouble.

Class Feature Questions
1. This was essentially asked on the first page, but I do not remember seeing an answer to it. Improved Unarmed Strike says that you can treat your unarmed strikes as grouped natural weapons, but does that mean that you get bonus attacks from them that do not conflict with the Natural Weapons mutation limit? Or just that you can take Natural Weapons improving mutations and have them apply to your unarmed strikes?

They don't interfere with the natural attacks gained through the natural weapons mutation. The limit in natural weapons only applies to that specific mutation, in fact. Any other natural weapons from any other source (even if said other source is also endemical to the evolutionist) can be added to a full attack with no compunctuation.

What the reading on IUS does is allow you to use all the fists you have in a full attack without suffering two-(multi-)weapon fighting penalties.


2. Does Monster Sage apply to Knowledge Devotion?

Monster sage applies to skill checks to identify creatures. Knowledge Devotion demands a skill check to identify a creature. So yes.


3. The Mutant Ascendancy age change seems to be very vague and open ended, which does make logical sense. However would a person be able to cease aging entirely with it?

Yes. It is quite expected, really.

You can also change it so that you age until a certain point (say, until Very Old or Venerable) and then stop. Never reaching the next tier of age or a maximum age.


4. What is the starting age?

Evolutionists have the same starting age as the wizard.


Further Homebrew Questions
5. What would everyone think about a template that increases the number of mutations gained at each level? Something along the lines of a creature descended from a Progenitor, and thus more accepting of change. I would think at least +1LA for +1 mutation per level, but was hoping for some other views on it.

Thank you to everyone who reads and/or responds to this.

I wouldn't put such a template at more than 1 mutation per character level and would make it at least a +2 LA. Early on, it wouldn't be much, but this template would give a lot of stuff.

And a number of mutations equal to HDx3 is essentially what the class gives.

[inuyasha]

oh yea...true...now im feeling stupid XD

[Tesla]

Thank you for the swift reply.

1. Ah, that does indeed make sense, and allows for more natural attacking glory.

2. Just thought it worth checking since +4 is a larger bonus than I am used to seeing for Knowledge skills.

3/4.Alright then, thank you very much for the information.

5. Sounds logical to me, and still workable with what I have access to.

Inuyasha: I could still see use in such a powerful template, but not as player accessible. A BBEG with 122 mutations would be a very valid threat I would say.

[inuyasha]

would it be possible, if you pick the right mutations, to evolve into big T? and if it isnt, Mr. Draken sir could you make it possible?

[Draken]

would it be possible, if you pick the right mutations, to evolve into big T? and if it isnt, Mr. Draken sir could you make it possible?

You would be one size category short (unless you went Giant instead of Magical Beast) and wouldn't have quite the same ammount of Regeneration (nor would it be quite as impossible to beat).

But other than those details, Big T requires about 13 mutations to get the basics of his setup in (minus his immunities). Let me try a build here. 20th level, basic elite array for abilities.

Tarrasquean
Human Evolutionist 20
Gargantuan Magical Beast
Hit Dice 20d8+120 (213 HP)
Initiative +10
Speed 40 ft
Armour Class 22 (+13 Natural, +3 Dex, -4 Size), touch 9, flat-footed 19
Base Attack Bonus/Grapple +20/+46
Attack Bite +35 (3d8+26; 18-20/x3)
Full Attack Bite +35 (3d8+19; 18-20/x3), Gore +30 (3d6+12), 2 Claws +30 (2d6+12), Tail +30 (3d6+12)
Space/Reach 20 ft/15 ft
Special Attacks: Improved Grab (Bite), Swalow Whole, Frightful Presence (DC 24), Sprint (400 feet charge once per minute).
Special Qualities: Scent, Fire Immunity, Fast Healing 9, Regeneration 10 (does not take normal damage from slashing, piercing or bludgeoning attacks), Spell Resistance 30 (any spell that fails to beat this is reversed onto the caster).
Saves Fort +20, Ref +18, Will +9
Abilities Str 38, Dex 16, Con 20, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 12
Skills Balance +6, Climb +18, Concentration +11, Escape Artist +6, Hide-6, Jump +18, Listen +15, Move Silently +6, Search +5 (+7 if using scent), Spot +15, Survival +3 (+5 following tracks with scent), Swim +18, Tumble +6.
Feats: Great Changer x8, Improved Unarmed Strike (B), Power Attack(B), Improved Initiative (B), Combat Reflexes (B), Blind Fight (B).
Treasure: Appropriate for a 20th level character.


Monster Sage: Guess who didn't take a single knowledge skill? That is right, you!

Mutations: The Tarrasquean has 82 mutations.
Basic:
Evolve Combat Instinct - 10
Evolve Fortitude - 3
Evolve Reflexes - 3
Evolve Resilience - 1
Evolve Talent - 1

Innate:
Extra Senses - 1
Natural Armor - 4
Natural Weapons - 4 (Bite, Gore, Claws, Tail)
Nimble Form - 3
Powerful Form - 4
Resilient Form - 6

Extraordinaire:
Augmented Critical - 3 (Bite (18-20/x3)
Damage Reduction - 5
Energy Resistance - 5 (Fire Immunity)
Fast Healing - 5
Frightful Presence - 1
Improved Grab - 1 (Bite)
Scent - 1
Spell Resistance - 5
Sprint - 6
Swalow Whole - 1


Supernatural:


Spell-like:
Spell Reversal - 9

Psi-like:




Teratomorphisms: The Tarrasquean has six teratomorphisms.
Teratomorph I: Tauric Body - The Tarrasquean has a somewhat stooped posture, like a theropod dinosaur.

Teratomorph II: Size Increase I - The Tarrasquean is big.

Teratomorph III: Regeneration I - The Tarrasquean is hard to kill.

Teratomorph IV: Size Increase II - The Tarrasquean is really big.

Teratomorph V: Regeneration II: The Tarrasquean is really hard to kill.

Teratomorph VI: Size Increase III: The Tarrasquean is really freaking big.

Mutant Ascendancy: The Tarrasquean has ascended into a Magical Beast. All of his natural weapons have an enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls of +5.

Mutant Perfection: The Tarrasquean has achieved perfection as a Magical Beast.


Ok. Details.

The Tarrasquean is all over the place. As far as builds go, this is very unfocused and has a lot of superfluous or underutilized things, it also goes out of its way to avoid taking some useful stuff.

It moves much faster than the default tarrasque and its attacks actually deal more damage, however! Frightful Presence does not last as long and it has overall inferior stats because we are working at half the beast's HD here. A level 48 evolutionist emulating the tarrasque would run out of stuff to emulate at level 30 more or less and would probably start having to shore the build's holes out of simple lack of options.

The above character includes no benefits from magic items.

[Rizban]

The tarrasque always seemed so weak in 3.X as compared to its earlier incarnations anyway. All you have to do is cast fly, and it's basically helpless against you.

[inuyasha]

thanks :) that was totally needed

[Rizban]

Gloom [Supernatural]
Prerequisite: -
Ability Score: None.
Benefit: The evolutionist projects a radius of Darkness as the spell, with a radius of 10 feet centered on him. This ability can be suppressed or activated as a swift action.
Further Mutations: Each time this mutation is taken after the first, the radius of the effect increases by 10 feet.Just to be clear, can gloom be taken once per level?
Is there maybe a way to upgrade the effective spell level of the ability to counter higher level [light] spells, such as making it equivalent to deeper darkness after taking it X times?
Maybe some way to create a blacklight (SpC p30) like effect and create actual darkness instead of just shadowy illumination?

[Draken]

Just to be clear, can gloom be taken once per level?
Is there maybe a way to upgrade the effective spell level of the ability to counter higher level [light] spells, such as making it equivalent to deeper darkness after taking it X times?
Maybe some way to create a blacklight (SpC p30) like effect and create actual darkness instead of just shadowy illumination?

As it stands yes, it can be taken once per level.

I will make some changes to it in the spirit of your questions. Gloom is kind of a one-point wonder as it stands.

[Lateral]

Hey, with the Outsider Teratomorph I Arms of the Outer Planes, are extra (paid) enchantments tracked separately for cost? That is, if I were 8th level and had that teratomorphism for a +2 greatsword, would paying to upgrade it to, say, a +2 flaming greatsword cost 2,000 gp or 10,000 gp?

[Draken]

Hey, with the Outsider Teratomorph I Arms of the Outer Planes, are extra (paid) enchantments tracked separately for cost? That is, if I were 8th level and had that teratomorphism for a +2 greatsword, would paying to upgrade it to, say, a +2 flaming greatsword cost 2,000 gp or 10,000 gp?

This has been adressed. Same for Armor of the Outer Planes.

[Tesla]

Is there any possibility of adding a feat/mutation/teratomorph that grants Evasion or Mettle? Are there thoughts against such an idea?

[Draken]

Is there any possibility of adding a feat/mutation/teratomorph that grants Evasion or Mettle? Are there thoughts against such an idea?

The evolutionist has multiple ways of not caring about the stuff that is usually denied by Evasion and Mettle.

That is the proper answer, I suppose. Truth be said I never felt like those abilities... Fit into the framework of the class. Even the Uncanny Dodge given by Extra Senses is actually an artificial means of providing All-around Vision without locking characters into (necessarily) a bunch of eyes. It can also be a bunch of ears or a bunch of noses.

Anyway. New stuff and changed old stuff.

Base Class:
Class Skills: Changed. The evolutionist can now chose any ten skills to be his class skills (a moderate downgrade from the old sixteen class skills).
Mutations: Mutations per level changed from five at level one plus three each level afterwards to six at level one and four each level afterwards.

Basic List:
Changed:
Evolve Aptitude - now gives three class skills. No longer gives skill points, but provides a bonus to all skill checks. Can be taken up to 5 times.
Evolve Skills - Now gives 6 + 2*mutator level skill points per mutation. Can be taken once per mutator leve, up to three times.


Extraordinaire List:
New Mutation - Trail. An upgrade for slime.

Supernatural List:
New Mutation: Glare - An altered version of the old Gaze mutation, avaiable earlier.
Changed:
Gaze - Now an expansion effect for Glare.

Feats:
New feats:
Expanded Creation - A treat for anyone who likes Budding Creation. It has another expansion coming soon, in fact.
Force and Verve - A general feat for anyone who has sonic effects. Like bards.
Great Changer - Removed. Enjoy your newfound feat slots that are not taken by an all-but-mandatory feat.

Plant List:
New Mutation - Bounty. An upgrade for nourishment.
Changed:
Grove - Bounty upgrade renamed to Garden.
Nourishment - health given increased to two times mutator level plus constitution modifier.

Undead List:
Changed:
Gloom - Plenty of new effects on it.

Due to wordcount limits, the Undead list has been moved to another post. As of this writing, said post is after three sequential posts by bobthe6th that used to be a small exchange between him and Selinia.

[DiGiacomon]

This is a wondrous edition of this extraordinaire class, The new editions make my plant dude oh so more fun.

Would it be safe to assume that all prestige classes also gain 4 mutations instead of 3 per level, and the skill list changes to the new?

[Draken]

This is a wondrous edition of this extraordinaire class, The new editions make my plant dude oh so more fun.

Would it be safe to assume that all prestige classes also gain 4 mutations instead of 3 per level, and the skill list changes to the new?

Oh. I forgot the skill changes, but I did make a change to the mutations gained by the prestige classes.

[Tesla]

First off, thank you for answering my question. It is appreciated.

Now this may actually be a stupid question, but does Elemental Infusion work with ranged weapons? I ask because my current build idea is very fragile at early levels, and adding to my full attack list would be nice.

Also I like quite a few of the new changes to be honest, and I admit that I am really fond of the Glare mutation despite its static effect duration. Thank you very much for the new developments.

[Draken]

First off, thank you for answering my question. It is appreciated.

Now this may actually be a stupid question, but does Elemental Infusion work with ranged weapons? I ask because my current build idea is very fragile at early levels, and adding to my full attack list would be nice.

Also I like quite a few of the new changes to be honest, and I admit that I am really fond of the Glare mutation despite its static effect duration. Thank you very much for the new developments.

Elemental Infusion is supposed to work with ranged weapons, indeed.

And glad you like glare. It was a change mainly to add more interesting options before level 5. Those were kind of lacking.

[inuyasha]

why did you upgrade mutations per level? I thought they were fine actually

[Draken]

why did you upgrade mutations per level? I thought they were fine actually

I noticed that pretty much every evolutionist build I could think of (and most that I saw otherwise) piled up on Great Changer as many times as possible and felt starved for mutations otherwise.

In light of that I decided to just remove great changer and make the mutations it gave baseline (with a small bonus, granted).

More changes!

With some luck, this adresses one of the last truly broken things in the evolutionist's load-out. Namely, tons of ability damage.

Extraordinaire list:
Changed:
Poison - now has a set limit of daily uses.

Undead Teratomorphisms
Consume Life I and II - Colapsed into a single teratomorphism, set to rank III with the effects of Consume Life II. Now also includes ability penalties you inflict.

New Teratomorphism:
Rejuvenation - Rank V: Revive somewhere like a Lich, ghost or vampire.

Undead List:
Ability Damage - Gone.
Ability Drain - Gone.

Energy Drain - Modified. No longer applies on any negaton touch (but can apply negaton touch instead).

Create Spawn - Modified to better comply with changes to Energy Drain and disappearance of Ability damage/drain.

New mutation: Debilitate - Debilitate takes the place of Ability Damage. It inflicts a penalty instead (which does not stack with itself, but starts off bigger than damage used to).

[DiGiacomon]

I like the additional changes, new teratamorphism or however one spells this. However, looking over the plant mutant ascendancy; I saw immunity to critical hits but not sneak attack.
I thought these were the same kind of damage, Wouldn't surprise me if I am confused but none the less curious.

[inuyasha]

I noticed that pretty much every evolutionist build I could think of (and most that I saw otherwise) piled up on Great Changer as many times as possible and felt starved for mutations otherwise.

In light of that I decided to just remove great changer and make the mutations it gave baseline (with a small bonus, granted).

More changes!

With some luck, this adresses one of the last truly broken things in the evolutionist's load-out. Namely, tons of ability damage.

Extraordinaire list:
Changed:
Poison - now has a set limit of daily uses.

Undead Teratomorphisms
Consume Life I and II - Colapsed into a single teratomorphism, set to rank III with the effects of Consume Life II. Now also includes ability penalties you inflict.

New Teratomorphism:
Rejuvenation - Rank V: Revive somewhere like a Lich, ghost or vampire.

Undead List:
Ability Damage - Gone.
Ability Drain - Gone.

Energy Drain - Modified. No longer applies on any negaton touch (but can apply negaton touch instead).

Create Spawn - Modified to better comply with changes to Energy Drain and disappearance of Ability damage/drain.

New mutation: Debilitate - Debilitate takes the place of Ability Damage. It inflicts a penalty instead (which does not stack with itself, but starts off bigger than damage used to).

why are you removing and weakening things silly :smalltongue:

and also could you consider upgrading create spawn to possibly ghouls/ghasts and maybe even wights?

[Draken]

I like the additional changes, new teratamorphism or however one spells this. However, looking over the plant mutant ascendancy; I saw immunity to critical hits but not sneak attack.
I thought these were the same kind of damage, Wouldn't surprise me if I am confused but none the less curious.

If I recall correctly, I literally copied that from the plant entry in the srd/MM. As far as I recall, critical hit immunity also means sneak attack immunity unless stated otherwise.


why are you removing and weakening things silly :smalltongue:

and also could you consider upgrading create spawn to possibly ghouls/ghasts and maybe even wights?

Because it is overpowered!

That is the answer to both questions, in fact. Wights are not happening. neither are ghouls.

Also another change:

Basic List:
Evolve Resilience - Changed to 2 HP/HD and 1/4 ML.

Construct List:
Hardened Body - Removed due to redundancy.

[Omnicrat]

With regard to harden body, even if the same mutation pretty much exists on another special list its just that: on another special list. Personally, I think it fits better with the constructs than with the elemental, but that's just me. Either way, there is no reason they can't both have a mutation that does that. Maybe just put the same mutation on both lists?

[Draken]

With regard to harden body, even if the same mutation pretty much exists on another special list its just that: on another special list. Personally, I think it fits better with the constructs than with the elemental, but that's just me. Either way, there is no reason they can't both have a mutation that does that. Maybe just put the same mutation on both lists?

Hardened Body was just another mutation that gave 1 hit point per hit dice.

[EdroGrimshell]

Hardened Body was just another mutation that gave 1 hit point per hit dice.

Yes but it allowed you to go past the normal limit of Evolve Resilience since you can take it separately. And it makes sense for constructs, they're highly resilient creatures, so having the ability to double up and get Uber HP is actually not a bad option.

[Omnicrat]

Hardened Body was just another mutation that gave 1 hit point per hit dice.

Oh. You know what I thought you did.

Also, EdroGrimshell makes a good point.

[Draken]

Yes, but it became superfluous when I changed Evolve Resilience to basically pull double time.

And technically, uber construct beefiness is the Living Fortress T-morph.

[inuyasha]

im sad about the missing ability drain :(

[Tesla]

I honestly think there are a lot of nifty abilities throughout the levels, but I have a strange thought process. My apologies if more questions is bothersome, but I thought of a few as I adjusted my mutation list to fit the new system.

1. Would you consider a Boost Construct like feat for Verdant Servant, or does Boost Construct apply to Verdant Servant?

2. What about having Expanded Creation apply to a Verdant Servant? [My build is a winter based character, and having a Verdant Servant made of ice would be befitting. Especially if I could talk my DM into that providing the Cold subtype which would make logical sense.]

3. Do you honestly think anyone would want to make a tree of hair?

Thank you.

[Draken]

I honestly think there are a lot of nifty abilities throughout the levels, but I have a strange thought process. My apologies if more questions is bothersome, but I thought of a few as I adjusted my mutation list to fit the new system.

1. Would you consider a Boost Construct like feat for Verdant Servant, or does Boost Construct apply to Verdant Servant?

2. What about having Expanded Creation apply to a Verdant Servant? [My build is a winter based character, and having a Verdant Servant made of ice would be befitting. Especially if I could talk my DM into that providing the Cold subtype which would make logical sense.]

3. Do you honestly think anyone would want to make a tree of hair?

Thank you.

1. Boost Construct applies to Verdant Servant by default. However, Verdant Servant does not provide you with any form of manifesting ability (it is not a psi-like mutation), so you need to take gain some form of manifesting ability before you can take boost construct (this can be achieved with any psi-like mutation or with any of the usual suspects).

2. You can make the Servant out of ice as a fluff matter (name aside, it doesn't have to be made of plant stuff). The subtype would not be present. Expanded Creation is a utility feat (and a strong utility feat at that), not a combat feat, so I am wary of having it directly buff a combat mutation.

3. Sure someone would. For more practical uses of the baseline effect of the feat, however, it allows you to make things out of Silk.

[DownwardSpiral]

Hey Draken, what tier were you shooting for this class? I really like it so far, the feel is really cool, and I like the customization. It seems though I can pick pretty much all the mutations I need with the buff to the mutations. Kinda worried about the strength of this class now is a tad too high.

[J-H]

I noticed that pretty much every evolutionist build I could think of (and most that I saw otherwise) piled up on Great Changer as many times as possible and felt starved for mutations otherwise.

In light of that I decided to just remove great changer and make the mutations it gave baseline (with a small bonus, granted).

That's because many individual mutations are equal to a feat (+2 save feats, Improved Toughness, Weapon Focus, etc.). Spend 1 Great Changer feat, get 2 feat-equivalent powers.

[Draken]

Hey Draken, what tier were you shooting for this class? I really like it so far, the feel is really cool, and I like the customization. It seems though I can pick pretty much all the mutations I need with the buff to the mutations. Kinda worried about the strength of this class now is a tad too high.

To borrow Morph Bark's terminology, the evolutionist is supposed to be a high tier 3 class. Namely, it has the overall power and versatility of a tier 3, with a few real powerhouses here and there (such as Fey, Elemental and Outsider Perfections).

Numerically speaking, the 86 mutations baseline will provide you something along these lines:

Most builds that I have seen rely on at least one mutation that requires an investment of 10 and several mutations with an average required investment of 6. There is also an assumption that at the very least 16~ mutations will go to the basic chassis, and more likely than not as many as 26, leaving 60-70 mutations for "the fun stuff", which puts most evolutionists at an average of 8-10 different abilities. Teratomorphs and Ascendancies then round up with various passive bonuses that more or less tie the builds together.

One inherent flaw of the system, of course, is that an evo shooting for a tier 4 build will... Well. He will do whatever it is he is focused on doing, really, really well. Excessively well, indeed. A friend running a campaign threw us at an evolutionist dungeon* a few weeks ago, and included such jewels as a sentry who could simply not be stealthed past (deranged spot modifiers, not that we had any notable stealth capabilities anyway) and a social encounter that snorted at our sense motive attempts. The fights were pretty great and varied, however.

*Monster girl dungeon, to be precise.


That's because many individual mutations are equal to a feat (+2 save feats, Improved Toughness, Weapon Focus, etc.). Spend 1 Great Changer feat, get 2 feat-equivalent powers.

Yeah, this was another issue with the feat.

[tonberrian]

Yeah, this was another issue with the feat.

Also that + Evolve Talent. Spend a feat, gain a feat and a mutation, once per 6 levels.

[Draken]

Also that + Evolve Talent. Spend a feat, gain a feat and a mutation, once per 6 levels.

Yes. Great Changer was, all in all, not that great an idea on my part.

[Mithril Leaf]

Is it possible to have some sort of evolution chain for the undead so that they can gain the ability to harm things normally immune to negative energy? Being a god of negative energy is only fun if you aren't totally shut down by a single 4th level spell. Perhaps something along the lines of you can deal 1/4 of normal damage with it per mutation, improving by that each time maybe?

EDIT: Maybe another option for Teratomorphism II and IV?

[Draken]

I'm... wary of adding such a teratomorphism, it would affect a lot of status effects, whereas the elemental ones only really affect damage (and add a few status effects, but whatever).

Anyway. PrC.


---------------------

Disciple of Thessala

"Vengeance for the great mother!"
- A common motto for the Disciples of Thessala.

In time immemorial, the elven heroine Leraje slaughtered the goddess Thessala, Mother of all Hydras, and condemned her children to eternity as simple-minded monsters. But her oldest children resisted this curse and never forgot, even when the gods cast Leraje down to the netherworld and struck her from history. The disciples carry on the legacy of these dreadful paragons of a bygone age. For good or ill.

Prerequisites:
Feats: Combat Reflexes.
Skills: Knowledge (Arcana) 11 ranks,
Special: Must have two or more heads.
Special: Must have Fast Healing.

HD: d8


Level
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Features


1
+0
+0
+0
+0
Hydra Lord, Mutations, Blessing of the Hydra Queen


2
+1
+0
+0
+0
Mutations, Blessing of the Hydra Queen, Extra Head


3
+1
+1
+1
+1
Mutations


4
+2
+1
+1
+1
Mutations, Blessing of the Hydra Queen, Extra Head


5
+2
+1
+1
+1
Mutations, Blessing of the Hydra Queen


Class Skills (2 + Int Modifier): The disciple of Thessala can chose the class skills of any one of his base classes to be his class skills for this class, this choice cannot be changed.

Proficiencies: Disciples of Thessala gain no additional proficiencies.

Mutations: A disciple of Thessala gains four mutations per class level.

Hydra Lord: The disciples are recognized by the mindless children of the deceased Hundred-Headed Queen as their kin and betters. Wild hydras will always be indifferent to the disciple and will not attack him or those with him unless provoked. Lastly the disciple may use the Handle Animal skill on hydras as if they were animals, and gains a +4 bonus on all such checks, as well as on survival checks to track hydras and hydra kin, knowledge checks to identify such creatures and bluff, diplomacy, intimidate and sense motive checks when dealing with them. Hydra kin are defined as other Disciples of Thessala and any creature associated with Hydras, such as Shrieking Terrors.

Blessing of the Hydra Queen: Disciples carry on the heritage of Thessala, Mother of All Hydras, an ancient goddess murdered by elves in older times. Some, those who blessed few who met her children who still cling to their ancient knowledge and wisdom keep alive the memory of the murderer, in spiteful defiance of the fickle elven deities who blessed her murderous act and then cast her down for being proud of her act. At each class level other than third, the Disciple of Thessala gains a special ability chosen from the list below, unless otherwise stated any given ability can be taken no more than once. Whenever one of those abilities allows a save, it uses the usual DC for mutations, based on Constitution.

Accelerated Monstrous Metabolism (Ex) – requires Swallow Whole: Much was said of Leraje and of those who inherited her deeds after her downfall, but little is ever told of those who died keeping the attentions of the thousand heads of the Hydra Queen while the archer aimed her perfect shot, an attempt was once made to pass the glory of the murder on to those brave fools, but the remaining unblemished children of Thessala were quick to show the world that the armies achieved nothing and would achieve nothing but sate her appetite. Whenever the disciple has swallowed a creature, his fast healing increases by 2, this effect stacks, increasing his fast healing by 2 for each swallowed creature. When a swallowed creature dies, this additional fast healing is lost, but the disciple gains a number of temporary hit points equal to his victim’s hit dice, these temporary hit points stack and last for up to one hour. Taking this blessing improves the disciple's innards as well, the capacity of his gizzard increases by one creature of the largest size he can hold for every head he has, its natural armor increases by twice his class level and its hit points increase by 10 per class level, finally, any fast healing the disciple has also applies to the hit points of his gizzard.
Invincible Hydra Body (Ex): The disciple’s fast healing and natural armor increase by his class level plus the maximum number of heads he can have at any one time, and he gains (or increases) damage reduction equal to half of this value, beaten by magic. The protections afforded by this ability can be ignored by specifically targetting the disciple's heads, at a -4 penalty on attack rolls, attacks targeted at his heads disregard the natural armor granted by this ability, damage directed at the disciple's heads and necks do not trigger this fast healing and isn't reduced by this additional damage reduction.
Lerna’s Gift (Ex) – requires acid resistance and poison: The oldest of Thessala’s daughters vanished following her mother’s demise, some say she met her end at the hands of a demigod, but that her venom later avenged her. The evolutionist gains the earth subtype and Acid Resistance 10 (or increases any existing acid resistance by 10). Furthermore, his poison dissolves his victims from within, dealing 1d6 points of acid damage per class level when it is applied, as well as whenever the victim fails a save against the poison. As a final benefit, the disciple gains a number of additional daily uses of his poison equal to his class level.
Multiple Awareness Focus (Ex): Most creatures with multiple heads benefit from their added sensory organs in minor ways, compared to one-headed beings. There was a time when hydras surpassed all such creatures, their individual heads more than capable of interacting with their surroundings on an individual level. Whenever the disciple makes a wisdom check or wisdom based skill check he may roll a number of twenty-sided die equal to the number of heads he has and take the best result among the rolls.
Plural Thought Genius (Ex): Before their creator was murdered, the hydras were among the most ingenious of beings, their many minds working in tandem to overcome any problem through sheer cognizant power. Whenever the disciple makes an intelligence check or intelligence based skill check he may roll a number of twenty-sided die equal to the number of heads he has and take the best result among the rolls.
Ragnis’ Wrath (Ex) – requires fire resistance: To this day, the first pyrohydra seethes in fury against the murderers of her mother and those who would glorify them, her blood boils at the thought that they are allowed to go unpunished for what they did to her kin. The disciple gains the Fire subtype (but gains neither fire immunity nor cold vulnerability) and Fire Resistance 10 (or increases any existing fire resistance by 10), and his bite and gore attacks deal an additional 1d6 points of fire damage per class level. Lastly, whenever he is wounded, his burning blood spills from his wounds in a 10 feet cone, dealing 2d6 points of fire damage for each head the evolutionist has, a reflex save halves this damage. For each size category above medium, the size of the cone increases by 5 feet.
Sudden Regeneration (Ex): The disciple regenerates lost heads at the astonishing rate of the creations of the Mother of All Hydras. One round after he has lost a head, he grows two identical heads in its place. However, his necks are vulnerable to sunder attempts, much like a hydra’s own. To sever a head, an opponent must make a successful sunder attempt with a slashing weapon. (The opponent should declare where the attack is aimed before making the attack roll.) Making a sunder attempt provokes an attack of opportunity unless the foe has the Improved Sunder feat. An opponent can strike at a disciple’s heads from any position in which he could strike at the disciple himself. An opponent can ready an action to attempt to sunder the disciple’s head when he bites at him. Each of the disciple’s heads has hit points equal to his full normal hit point total, divided by his original number of heads. Losing a head deals damage to the disciple’s body equal to half the head’s full normal hit points. A natural reflex seals the neck shut to prevent further blood loss. The disciple can no longer attack with a severed head but takes no other penalties, unless he is out of heads, in which case he dies. A disciple can never have more than twice his original number of heads at any one time, and any extra heads he gains beyond his original number wither and die within five minutes. To prevent a severed head from growing back into two heads, at least 5 points of acid, cold, electricity or fire damage must be dealt to the stump (a touch attack to hit) before the new heads appear. A flaming weapon (or similar effect) deals its energy damage to the stump in the same blow in which a head is severed. Acid, cold, electricity or fire damage from an area effect may burn multiple stumps in addition to dealing damage to the disciple’s body. A disciple does not die from losing its heads until all its heads have been cut off and the stumps seared by acid, cold, electricity or fire.
Thessian’s Spite (Su) – requires cold resistance and glare: Quite unlike his fiery twin sister, Thessian did not trash and froth at his mother’s murder, his wrath was silent and cold as his freezing blood. The disciple gains the Cold subtype (but gains neither cold immunity nor fire vulnerability) and Cold Resistance 10 (or increases any existing cold resistance by 10), in addition, his Glare chills those who meet it to their very cores, inflicting 1d6 cold damage per class level for each glare. If the disciple has the Gaze mutation or any other gaze attack, this chill pervades his gaze, dealing 2d6 points of cold damage for each head the disciple has to any creature in range, averting one’s eyes does not affect this damage. Any creature that takes cold damage from this glare or gaze is slowed for one round unless it succeeds on a fortitude save, which also halves the damage dealt, targets in potential can only be forced to make this save, by the disciple’s glare, once per round.


Extra Head: The power of Thessala brings the disciple closer to the ideal of her children. At second and fourth level, the disciple grows an additional head. This ability works exactly like the Extra Head I teratomorphism and stacks with it. Should the disciple have Extra Head II, and two additional heads from this ability, he receives an additional move action and an additional standard action (or one extra full round action) on his turn as opposed to only a single additional move or standard action.

[Mithril Leaf]

I'm... wary of adding such a teratomorphism, it would affect a lot of status effects, whereas the elemental ones only really affect damage (and add a few status effects, but whatever).

I definitely feel you there. Perhaps just have it convert negative energy damage to vile damage or something?

EDIT: Meant hellfire, like the demons get.

[Draken]

I definitely feel you there. Perhaps just have it convert negative energy damage to vile damage or something?

EDIT: Meant hellfire, like the demons get.

Devils. And they don't really have a whole lot to do with undead.

Either way, evos have plenty of great ways to grab dispel magic, so I don't think that is much of an issue.

[Mithril Leaf]

Devils. And they don't really have a whole lot to do with undead.

Either way, evos have plenty of great ways to grab dispel magic, so I don't think that is much of an issue.

It doesn't seem like much of an issue, but if people avoid a really cool archtype that you make a bunch of support for because it's shut down incredibly easily, it's hardly worth making the support in the first place. It's like playing an enchanter in a high level game. Negative energy is just one of those blanket immunities that everyone has at high levels. As a player, I love the idea of a channel of the force of death, but as an optimizer I have a lot of difficulty playing something so easily shut down like that.

I mean, it's your homebrew of course, these are just my concerns. I love what you've done with the class.

[Quester]

I'm a long time fan of the evolutionist and this is my first comment.

I love the Disciple of Thessala, I defiantly want to try my hand at making a multi-headed horror now.

It's like you read my mind, I just began to stat up a sound elemental character for a potential game and then you made Force and Verve.

The first thing I thought of when I saw Expanded Creation was that you could make an edible sword, that you cooked with another sword, made of fire.

I'll miss the Great Changer feat, it was just the right combination of annoying and exploitable.

@Mithril Leaf- Unless I'm mistaken the Archon Teratomorph applies to all energy types, not just the one related to your subtype. Doesn't help with negative levels and ability effects, but you get to deal half damage to people with negative energy immunity, it does however cost a feat and a 2 teratomorphs to get. Although that's the problem with any form of optimization, with great power comes exploitable weaknesses.

[Draken]

I'm a long time fan of the evolutionist and this is my first comment.

I love the Disciple of Thessala, I defiantly want to try my hand at making a multi-headed horror now.

It's like you read my mind, I just began to stat up a sound elemental character for a potential game and then you made Force and Verve.

The first thing I thought of when I saw Expanded Creation was that you could make an edible sword, that you cooked with another sword, made of fire.

I'll miss the Great Changer feat, it was just the right combination of annoying and exploitable.

@Mithril Leaf- Unless I'm mistaken the Archon Teratomorph applies to all energy types, not just the one related to your subtype. Doesn't help with negative levels and ability effects, but you get to deal half damage to people with negative energy immunity, it does however cost a feat and a 2 teratomorphs to get. Although that's the problem with any form of optimization, with great power comes exploitable weaknesses.

Disciple was in the works for awhile (truth be said, only Thessian's Spite and Lerna's Gift were left to write since january).

Don't forget it next time you make a bard as well! Force and Verve is not a mutator feat, after all.

Speaking of Budding Creation, there is a new upgrade for it! Living Creation now allows you to order the meat sword to cook itself with the fire sword's help.

Great Changer wasn't so much exploitable as it was mandatory, like Font of Inspiration, but worse.

And yeah, in thesis you can use the Periodic Table of Elementals sidebar to make a whole chain springing from Heart of Negative Energy.

[EdroGrimshell]

Do you think you could add some Incarnum themed mutations? Possibly an Incarnum Mutator List or the like?

[Draken]

Incarnum already has an off-class mechanic in the shape soulmeld feat, and making incarnum internal to the class could cause issues with, for instance, the Soul Evolutionist PrC.

[EdroGrimshell]

Soul Evolutionist PrC.

The reason I ask is because of that class. I don't like it. It's based on a class that was made for a Magic System and honestly doesn't really work for the more physical nature of this class.

[Rizban]

Incarnum already has an off-class mechanic in the shape soulmeld feat, and making incarnum internal to the class could cause issues with, for instance, the Soul Evolutionist PrC.
The reason I ask is because of that class. I don't like it. It's based on a class that was made for a Magic System and honestly doesn't really work for the more physical nature of this class.
I'm in the process of reworking that class a little bit and am working on another mutation/incarnum class, though you probably won't like that one either as it isn't exactly a dual progression class.

[Draken]

The reason I ask is because of that class. I don't like it. It's based on a class that was made for a Magic System and honestly doesn't really work for the more physical nature of this class.

The structure is far from troublesome, I would say (but Incarnum Ascendancy is awful and I would never use it ever).

But the point stands. Best I could do is maybe give something akin to Soulborn progression, and I would put it behind Outsider mutations for thematic purposes (as Spell-like mutations, for that matter). It would be quite the mutation hog in the interest of keeping it from being too good at meldshaping, however.


I'm in the process of reworking that class a little bit and am working on another mutation/incarnum class, though you probably won't like that one either as it isn't exactly a dual progression class.

Speaking of that, it needs to have the mutation gain upped.

[Mithril Leaf]

Thanks for the advice on the negative energy archon, that's probably not a bad idea. I might toss that together sometime soonish, would it apropos to post it here?

Additionally, I have a question about some interactions, do you think that as the originator of the class, it would be reasonable under rule of cool to allow an Arm of the Outer Plane to be used as the base of an Integrated Arsenal mutation? You can sort of already lawyer it on because it requires proficiency with the weapon, and you pick a type which you are only proficient with the one from arms, it kinda has to glitch it's way in.

[Draken]

Thanks for the advice on the negative energy archon, that's probably not a bad idea. I might toss that together sometime soonish, would it apropos to post it here?

Additionally, I have a question about some interactions, do you think that as the originator of the class, it would be reasonable under rule of cool to allow an Arm of the Outer Plane to be used as the base of an Integrated Arsenal mutation? You can sort of already lawyer it on because it requires proficiency with the weapon, and you pick a type which you are only proficient with the one from arms, it kinda has to glitch it's way in.

Certainly, post away.

Hmm... You mean to add the benefits of Integrated Arsenal to the weapon from AotOP? You could probably just use a locked gauntlet for that, but sure, it is a fair houserule to make.

In fact, you could easily houserule Integrated Arsenal to affect any extant weapon gained through class features you might have.

[Mithril Leaf]

Certainly, post away.

Hmm... You mean to add the benefits of Integrated Arsenal to the weapon from AotOP? You could probably just use a locked gauntlet for that, but sure, it is a fair houserule to make.

In fact, you could easily houserule Integrated Arsenal to affect any extant weapon gained through class features you might have.

I'll probably end up doing it next weekend after I finish marathoning Danny Phantom.

Yeah, that was the idea behind it. I was planning on taking both for a ghost who ends up with a crazy scythe of death (necrotic focus and planeshift means you can arguably channel 1d4+str ability drain to every hit). It helps add some of those handy natural weapon mutations to it.

[Rizban]

Posted the update to the Soul Evolutionist.

[inuyasha]

hmm would it be weird for an evolutionist to use budding creation to create weapons attached to his hands through the integrated weapons mutation? Because I have this awesome image of a plant evolutionist with big green pods on his hands that erupt into swords :D

[Volthawk]

hmm would it be weird for an evolutionist to use budding creation to create weapons attached to his hands through the integrated weapons mutation? Because I have this awesome image of a plant evolutionist with big green pods on his hands that erupt into swords :D

Isn't that just plain old Integrated Weapon with plant-style fluff behind it, no Budding Creation needed?

[inuyasha]

well with integrated weapon cant you just have one type of weapon per time you take the mutation? with the budding creation you could customize what you need for your current situation, crossbow for ranged, whip for slavery, longsword for melee, kukri for tripping, sling for hurling stuff etc etc

[Draken]

You could theme the budding creation as if it were bound like Integrated Arsenal, but it wouldn't get the bonuses (the weapon created would be perfectly disarmable, which would look like an amputation I suppose).

You should also note that items created with BC need a minute to take form.

[Quester]

Copy pasta error in the Evolutionist Anomaly's class skills.

Also speaking of the Evolutionist Anomaly, any chance Great Chimera or Extra Chimerism is going the way of Great Changer.

[Draken]

Copy pasta error in the Evolutionist Anomaly's class skills.

Also speaking of the Evolutionist Anomaly, any chance Great Chimera or Extra Chimerism is going the way of Great Changer.

I suck at creepy pasta.

Extra Chimerism and Great Chimera are staying, but Great Chimera can no longer be taken more than once.

[bobthe6th]

So... I have been meaning to do a Elan rewrite, and I figure giving a small set of mutations might be better then the current set of personal powers.

So how many mutations would make up a LA +0 race? I hear people say a race should equal two feats... but their are no feats for getting more mutations. one mutation does give you a feat, but it is limited to 4th level and only rarely even then.

[Necroticplague]

So... I have been meaning to do a Elan rewrite, and I figure giving a small set of mutations might be better then the current set of personal powers.

So how many mutations would make up a LA +0 race? I hear people say a race should equal two feats... but their are no feats for getting more mutations. one mutation does give you a feat, but it is limited to 4th level and only rarely even then.

A lot of mutations are feat equivalent, though if you have a race gain mutations you might want to restrict them, especially if they pick up a non-evolutionist class,like the ones that are mostly chassis modifiers.

[Draken]

When making a base race with mutations as its preeminent feature, I would give it 3-4 mutations without giving access to Basic mutations.

The matter of mutator level... I would make these mutations keep a personal mutator level equal to character level and make it so that they cannot be exchanged.

And I doubt that most races can be considered equivalent to two feats. A few are equivalent to quite a bit more.

[bobthe6th]

That was just a balance point I have heard of...

so, how about this as a replacement for the Elan abilities that cost PP.
Naturally morphic(Ex or Ps or Su): Elans gain 2+1/4HD unstable mutations(as the Anomalous Mutation tetra-morph), that can be chosen from the innate, extraordinary, supernatural, or psi-like lists. They have an effective mutator equal to their HD for these mutations only.

So a level 20 elan has 7 to play with... but at first level is only using 2.

[Mithril Leaf]

So, it'd be alright if I made a prestige class for this right?

[Draken]

That was just a balance point I have heard of...

so, how about this as a replacement for the Elan abilities that cost PP.
Naturally morphic(Ex or Ps or Su): Elans gain 2+1/4HD unstable mutations(as the Anomalous Mutation tetra-morph), that can be chosen from the innate, extraordinary, supernatural, or psi-like lists. They have an effective mutator equal to their HD for these mutations only.

So a level 20 elan has 7 to play with... but at first level is only using 2.

Twelve words.

Up to seven powers of 1st-6th level of your choice, changeable daily.

There is a reason Anomalous Mutation is a teratomorphism that gives one mutation every time you get it.

[bobthe6th]

Fair point, hows about this.
Naturally morphic(Ex or Ps or Su): Elans gain 2+1/4HD unstable mutations(as the Anomalous Mutation tetra-morph), that can be chosen from the innate or extraordinary lists. They have an effective mutator equal to their HD for these mutations only.

They get swappable natural attacks, or some resistances. As they level they get a few more, but never more then a first level Evolutionist until 20.

[Draken]

I honestly think that swappable mutations are too strong and simply set mutations (with the ability to exchange one whenever a new level is gained).


Also, because I have been getting a couple of these questions in PMs, anyone can feel free to try their hand at evolutionist PrCs.

[Mithril Leaf]

Well here's my go at a PrC expanding on the Arms of the Outer Planes teratomorphism and the Extra Arms normal mutation.

Weaponthane Ascendant
"My soul cuts deeper than any blade!"
- A literal war cry common to Weaponthane Ascendants.

There is a school of swordsman that teach the blade should not be a tool used to fight, but an extension of the self, manifesting in a razor point. If the blade is no more than an extension of the arm that wields it, then surely it should be able to hold the prowess gifted to the self by evolution. At least, this is what the Weaponthane Ascendants believe. As the group that pioneered this style were devote disciples of the Hecatoncheires of legend, Weaponthane Ascendants gain a small number of additional inherent bonuses from possession of additional arms.

Prerequisites:
Feats: Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Weapon created by Arms of the Outer Planes).
Skills: Craft (Weaponsmithing) 8 ranks, Knowledge (History) 8 ranks.
Special: BAB +5.
Special: Must possess the Arms of the Outer Planes teratomorphism.
Special: Must have more than one set of arms.

HD: d8
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Features
1|+0|+0|+0|+0|Blade Body, Mutations, Strength of Arms
2|+1|+0|+0|+0|Mutations, Blade Teratomorphism I
3|+1|+1|+1|+1|Mutations, Cut Deeper
4|+2|+1|+1|+1|Mutations, Blade Teratomorphism II
5|+2|+1|+1|+1|Mutations, Momentum Manipulation[/table]
Class Skills (2 + Int Modifier): The Weaponthane Ascendant can chose the class skills of any one of his base classes to be his class skills for this class, this choice cannot be changed.

Proficiencies: Weaponthane Ascendants gain no additional proficiencies.

Mutations: A Weaponthane Ascendant gains four mutations per class level.

Blade Body: A Weaponthane Ascendant treats his soul weapon gained from the Arms of the Outer Planes teratomorphism as both a natural attack and a manufactured weapon. Additionally, if any of his racial abilities or class features trigger from some form of natural attack (such as the ghost's corrupting touch), they may instead be triggered by an attack with his soul weapon.

Strength of Arms (Ex): A Weaponthane Ascendant of at least first level knows that having more arms and knowing what to do with them makes for an exceptional combatant. For every two set of arms he possesses beyond the first grants a stacking +1 inherent bonus to his strength score.

Blade Teratomorphisms: Weaponthane Ascendants both grow in skill and in raw power, especially when concerning their soul weapon. At levels two and four, they may select a level I and a level II Blade Teratomorphism respectively. These follow normal rules for teratomorphisms, and do not affect what level of teratomorphism he may select should he return to the Evolutionist class. They follow standard rules for determining mutation saves when applicable, using strength as the relevant ability modifier.

Teratomorph I:
Anchoring Blade: Soul weapons sometimes have an interesting effect on spells that provide supernatural travel, perhaps because they are typically made of the souls of extraplanar creatures themselves. A Weaponthane Ascendant with an anchoring blade creates a dimensional anchor effect when he successfully hit an enemy. The enemy is allowed a save, but there is no spell resistance allowed.
Bloodied Blade - requires Fast Healing: There is much power in blood, especially when it is drawn by an enemy with a weapon made of soulstuff. When the Weaponthane Ascendant deals damage with his soul weapon, he absorbs the blood drawn and is healed for 1/4 of the damage dealt.
Frenzy: Sometimes a Weaponthane Ascendant gets far more angry than is humanly possible, which makes sense for an evolutionist. He gains rage as a Barbarian of 2/3 (rounded up) his mutator level, gaining all augmentations of it as appropriate. He may instead select any rage variant available to an equal level barbarian.
Prowess: Many Weaponthane Ascendants prefer simply being better than the enemy at swordplay to any sort of special ability. A Weaponthane Ascendant who has selected Prowess gains a bonus to attack and damage rolls with his soul weapon equal to 1/4 of his mutator level.
Split Soul: Sometimes a Weaponthane Ascendant chooses to fight with a blade in every hand rather than every hand on one blade. He gains Arms of the Outer Planes a second time, ignoring the normal restriction on taking a teratomorphism twice. All of his Weaponthane Ascendant class features function equally well with both blades.


Teratomorph II:
Antimagic Exertion: The bond between a Weaponthane Ascendant and his weapon goes beyond even powerful magic. When a Weaponthane Ascendant enters an anti-magic field, he may make a will save (DC 25). This save does not automatically fail on a natural one. If he succeeds on his save, his soul weapon does not lose any of it's enhancements in the anti-magic field. Additionally, any supernatural abilities that are triggered by it's use (such as the Spiritual Wound mutation) still function.
Multifaceted Soul - Requires Split Soul: When a Weaponthane Ascendant decides to fight with more than one blade, he doesn't half ass it. His previously split two blades space out, filling each arm with which he can wield a weapon. His first blade fills all his right hands, while his blade from Split Soul fills all his left hands. They have all of the same statistics of the primary blades, and for all intents and purposes count as the same weapon. He may only trigger abilities with his primary two blades however.
Transdimensional Rift: The blade of a Weaponthane Ascendant can be so sharp that it slices the very fabric keeping the planes seperated. A Weaponthane Ascendant who chooses this ability may slice a rift from his current location to somewhere else entirely. As a full round action he may open a portal that connects two points in the cosmos. This portal lasts a number of rounds equal to half his mutator level. By default these portals are the size of the Weaponthane Ascendant, but he may spend another full round to increase or decrease the portal by up to two size categories. From the beginning this only fuctions as a basic teleport. When his mutator level is 12, it functions as either a greater teleport or planeshift. When his mutator level is 17, it may function as both simultaneously and without error.
Exceptionally Crafted Weapon: Sometimes it just feels great to have your weapon be better than anyone else's. A Weaponthane Ascendant with this ability gains special abilities on his soul weapon equal to 1/4 of his mutator level. These do not count against costs and are above and beyond the native enhancement bonus from being gifted by Arms of the Outer Planes. By spending one hour attuning his soul, he may adjust the abilities his weapon has, even those which are not given by this ability. He may choose any abilities, as long as they do not exceed the sum of his weapon enhancement equivalent.



Cut Deeper (Ex): A Weaponthane Ascendant of third level can make wounds that overcome even regeneration and damage reduction, to a degree. By taking a -10 attack penalty until the beginning of his next turn, his attacks with his soul weapon bypass all damage reduction possessed by the target and do lethal damage even when normal regeneration would normally convert it to non-lethal. He may bypass even true immunity to such attacks (such as the tarrasque's regeneration and the immunity to bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing of an adequately leveled undead evolutionist) by taking a -20 penalty to attacks rolls instead of a -10 penalty.

Momentum Manipulation (Ex): A Weaponthane Ascendant of fifth level knows how to use his excess arms to swing faster than any mere warrior. By taking a -10 penalty to his attack roll until the beginning of his next turn, he may make a full attack action as a standard action.

[Draken]

Well here's my go at a PrC expanding on the Arms of the Outer Planes teratomorphism and the Extra Arms normal mutation.

Weaponthane Ascendant
"My soul cuts deeper than any blade!"
- A literal war cry common to Weaponthane Ascendants.

There is a school of swordsman that teach the blade should not be a tool used to fight, but an extension of the self, manifesting in a razor point. If the blade is no more than an extension of the arm that wields it, then surely it should be able to hold the prowess gifted to the self by evolution. At least, this is what the Weaponthane Ascendants believe.

Prerequisites:
Feats: Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Weapon created by Arms of the Outer Planes).
Skills: Craft (Weaponsmithing) 8 ranks, Knowledge (History) 8 ranks.
Special: BAB +5.
Special: Must possess the Arms of the Outer Planes teratomorphism.
Special: Must have more than one set of arms.

HD: d8
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Features
1|+1|+0|+0|+0|Blade Body, Mutations, Strength of Arms
2|+2|+0|+0|+0|Mutations, Blade Teratomorphism I
3|+3|+1|+1|+1|Mutations, Momentum Manipulation
4|+4|+1|+1|+1|Mutations, Blade Teratomorphism II
5|+5|+1|+1|+1|Mutations, Accelerated Attacking[/table]
Class Skills (2 + Int Modifier): The Weaponthane Ascendant can chose the class skills of any one of his base classes to be his class skills for this class, this choice cannot be changed.

Proficiencies: Weaponthane Ascendants gain no additional proficiencies.

Mutations: A Weaponthane Ascendant gains four mutations per class level.

Blade Body: A Weaponthane Ascendant treats his soul weapon gained from the Arms of the Outer Planes teratomorphism as both a natural attack and a manufactured weapon. Additionally, if any of his racial abilities or class features trigger from some form of natural attack (such as the ghost's corrupting touch), they may instead be triggered by an attack with his soul weapon.

Strength of Arms (Ex): A Weaponthane Ascendant of at least first level knows that having more arms and knowing what to do with them makes for an exceptional combatant. Each set of arms he possesses beyond the first grants a stacking +1 inherent bonus to his strength score.

Blade Teratomorphisms: Weaponthane Ascendants both grow in skill and in raw power, especially when concerning their soul weapon. At levels two and four, they may select a level I and a level II Blade Teratomorphism respectively. These follow normal rules for teratomorphisms, and do not affect what level of teratomorphism he may select should he return to the Evolutionist class.

Teratomorph I:
Anchoring Blade: Soul weapons sometimes have an interesting effect on spells that provide supernatural travel, perhaps because they are typically made of the souls of extraplanar creatures themselves. A Weaponthane Ascendant with an anchoring blade creates a dimensional anchor effect when he successfully hit an enemy. The enemy is allowed a save following normal mutation DCs, but there is no spell resistance allowed.
Bloodied Blade - requires Fast Healing: There is much power in blood, especially when it is drawn by an enemy with a weapon made of soulstuff. When the Weaponthane Ascendant deals damage with his soul weapon, he absorbs the blood drawn and is healed for 1/4 of the damage dealt.
Frenzy: Sometimes a Weaponthane Ascendant gets far more angry than is humanly possible, which makes sense for an evolutionist. He gains rage as a Barbarian of his mutator level, gaining all augmentations of it as appropriate. He may instead select any rage variant available to an equal level barbarian.
Prowess: Many Weaponthane Ascendants prefer simply being better than the enemy at swordplay to any sort of special ability. A Weaponthane Ascendant who has selected Prowess gains a bonus to attack and damage rolls with his soul weapon equal to 1/2 of his mutator level.
Split Soul: Sometimes a Weaponthane Ascendant chooses to fight with a blade in every hand rather than every hand on one blade. He gains Arms of the Outer Planes a second time, ignoring the normal restriction on taking a teratomorphism twice. All of his Weaponthane Ascendant class features function equally well with both blades.


Teratomorph II:
Antimagic Exertion: The bond between a Weaponthane Ascendant and his weapon goes beyond even powerful magic. When a Weaponthane Ascendant enters an anti-magic field, he may make a will save (DC 25). This save does not automatically fail on a natural one. If he succeeds on his save, his soul weapon does not lose any of it's enhancements in the anti-magic field. Additionally, any supernatural abilities that are triggered by it's use (such as the Spiritual Wound mutation) still function.
Soul Slicer: The wounds dealt by a soul weapon frequently go beyond mere cuts. A Weaponthane Ascendant with this ability harms the very soul of his enemies when he attacks them. Anyone killed by his soul weapon cannot be raised by a simple raise dead spell. At mutator level 10, not even a resurrection can raise them. Once he hits mutator level 15, true resurrection fails as well. At mutator level 20, only direct diefic intervention is required to heal a soul killed by this soul weapon. Additionally, he gains two free levels of the Soul Wound teratomorphism, even if they push him above his normal limit.
Transdimensional Rift: The blade of a Weaponthane Ascendant can be so sharp that it slices the very fabric keeping the planes seperated. A Weaponthane Ascendant who chooses this ability may slice a rift from his current location to somewhere else entirely. As a full round action he may open a portal that connects two points in the cosmos. This portal lasts a number of rounds equal to half his mutator level. From the beginning this only fuctions as a basic teleport. When his mutator level is 15, it functions as either a greater teleport or planeshift. When his mutator level is 20, it may function as both simultaneously and without error.
Exceptionally Crafted Weapon: Sometimes it just feels great to have your weapon be better than anyone else's. A Weaponthane Ascendant with this ability gains special abilities on his soul weapon equal to 1/4 of his mutator level. These do not count against costs and are above and beyond the native enhancement bonus from being gifted by Arms of the Outer Planes. By spending one hour attuning his soul, he may adjust the abilities his weapon has, even those which are not given by this ability. He may choose any abilities, as long as they do not exceed the sum of his weapon enhancement equivalent.



Momentum Manipulation (Ex): A Weaponthane Ascendant who has reached third level knows how to swing his soul weapon so that it is always passing smoothly into a waiting hand. For every two sets of arms he possesses above the first, he may make an additional attack with his soul weapon when making a full round attack. This stacks with all other extra attacks such as from spells such as haste.

Accelerated Attacking (Ex): A Weaponthane Ascendant of fifth level has arms which allow him to swing faster than any mere warrior. By taking a penalty to his attack role (equal to 30 minus the number of sets of arms he has above the first), he may make a full attack action as a standard action.

Few things.

1. All mutator classes have bad BAB and all bad saves, not negotiable!

2. Ok, this one is relevant. Fighting with multiple hands on one weapon is really strong, I can't really put enough emphasis into this, it is really, really good. Anyway, as it stands, the multiple arms feels... Tacked on? If I see multiple arms, I would expect some form of multiplication, in this case, a multiplication of Arms (as in, weapons, that was a bad joke), but the only such means it gives is one of the exclusive teratomorphisms, which can be taken once, for a grand total of two weapons.

3. Prowess provides too much of a bonus.

4. T-morphs that mention saves don't mention what ability score the save is based on, presumably strength or charisma.

5. Frenzy steps too hard on the barbarian's toes, I think.

6. Soul Slicer. Eeeh. Dunno about it, doesn't really look all that attractive. There are a lot of things that could be done with souls, most of them in the Book of Vile Darkness, and this feels like a wasted of opportunity. Also, there is no Soul Wound teratomorphism, I presume that refers to the Spiritual Wound mutation. The effect looks added on to make the whole package more attractive overall (preventing ressurrection is terribly specific, after all).

7. Transdimentional Rift looks a bit like Planewalker, but suffers of some level of 'doesn't quite compare', when first gained. Granted, it is gained much earlier.

8. Momentum Manipulation - exceeding the preset limits on extra attacks is unwise. This could work better as a flurry of blows lookalike.

9. Accelerated Attacking - Eeeh. The mechanics of it are weird and kind of feels like a repeat of Momentum Manipulation.

10. This is a pet thing, but I think that any PrC that you can qualify at 5 should be 10 levels long, whereas 5 level PrCs should only be avaiable at level 9 at minimum.

[Mithril Leaf]

The majority of those have been addressed.
1. Now back down to bad BAB.
2. Proper multiplication. Also, it gives an additional +.5 str to damage per arm and was totally doable by a basic mutator. If your strength is 40, you gain your strength again from another set of arms.
3. Prowess was dropped down to 1/4 level.
4. They follow standard mutation saves as you defined in the mutations section of the main class.
5. Frenzy was dropped down to barbarian of half level.
6. Dropped and swapped for multiplication.
7. It starts worse, becomes about on par at 15, and distinctly better at 20. It scales.
8. Dropped entirely, reused name.
9. Mechanics are simpler, swapped name.
10. I'll have to agree to disagree with you on this, I love 5 level long 5th level PrCs. Lets you have something to fill in the gaps as you wait for a level 10 PrC to come online.

[Draken]

The majority of those have been addressed.
1. Now back down to bad BAB.
2. Proper multiplication. Also, it gives an additional +.5 str to damage per arm and was totally doable by a basic mutator. If your strength is 40, you gain your strength again from another set of arms.
3. Prowess was dropped down to 1/4 level.
4. They follow standard mutation saves as you defined in the mutations section of the main class.
5. Frenzy was dropped down to barbarian of half level.
6. Dropped and swapped for multiplication.
7. It starts worse, becomes about on par at 15, and distinctly better at 20. It scales.
8. Dropped entirely, reused name.
9. Mechanics are simpler, swapped name.
10. I'll have to agree to disagree with you on this, I love 5 level long 5th level PrCs. Lets you have something to fill in the gaps as you wait for a level 10 PrC to come online.

1. Excellent.

2. I know that. That is not what I mean.

What I mean is... Theme-wise you don't really use those extra arms for anything other than an inherent bonus and wielding your weapon(s) with more hands. There is no thematic tie to it. As it stands I would describe the class as "A master of the Soul-forged Weapon. Who also happens to derive minor additional benefits* from extra arms."

*Minor additional benefits because the inherent bonus is all you get that someone else with extra arms wouldn't get.

3. Ok.

4. I wasn't clear there. Mutations and Teratomorphisms that allow a save have a save of (10 + Half Mutator level + Ability Score Modifier). Your teratomorphisms are not listing what the ability score modifier in question is. I suggested that it is probably either Str or Cha.

5. Reasonable.

6. Great and somewhat adresses the matter of the disconnect with multiple arms.

Speaking of that disconnect, maybe tying the innate lore of the class to the Hecatoncheires would work on that front.

7. Yes. I noticed. The level 20 scaling effect is of arguable advantage, however.

8/9. Needs the wording improved. It should probably be written as:


Momentum Manipulation (Ex): A Weaponthane Ascendant of fifth level knows how to use his excess arms to swing faster than any mere warrior. By taking a -10 penalty to all attack rolls until the beggining of his next turn, he may make a full attack action as a standard action.

10. It is mostly a preference of mine. Nothing big.

[Rizban]

Speaking of PrC critiques, did you ever look over the revised Soul Evolutionist?

[Mithril Leaf]

1. Excellent.

2. I know that. That is not what I mean.

What I mean is... Theme-wise you don't really use those extra arms for anything other than an inherent bonus and wielding your weapon(s) with more hands. There is no thematic tie to it. As it stands I would describe the class as "A master of the Soul-forged Weapon. Who also happens to derive minor additional benefits* from extra arms."

*Minor additional benefits because the inherent bonus is all you get that someone else with extra arms wouldn't get.

3. Ok.

4. I wasn't clear there. Mutations and Teratomorphisms that allow a save have a save of (10 + Half Mutator level + Ability Score Modifier). Your teratomorphisms are not listing what the ability score modifier in question is. I suggested that it is probably either Str or Cha.

5. Reasonable.

6. Great and somewhat adresses the matter of the disconnect with multiple arms.

Speaking of that disconnect, maybe tying the innate lore of the class to the Hecatoncheires would work on that front.

7. Yes. I noticed. The level 20 scaling effect is of arguable advantage, however.

8/9. Needs the wording improved. It should probably be written as:



10. It is mostly a preference of mine. Nothing big.

2/6.5. Rewrote a bit of the fluff, but I've always been more of a mechanics man that a fluff master. I'll think some more on integrating it.

4. Could have sworn it defaulted to charisma unless stated otherwise. Must have been something else I was thinking of. Sorry about that confusion.

7. I might shift it down some levels, with the 20th level ability basically giving full wish teleport. Thoughts on 15 becoming 10, 20 becoming 15, and 20 getting an upgrade?

[Draken]

Speaking of PrC critiques, did you ever look over the revised Soul Evolutionist?

Just checked, much more streamlined and easy to use. I approve! I would just set Mutable Soul to 5 minutes so that it matches Anomalous.


2/6.5. Rewrote a bit of the fluff, but I've always been more of a mechanics man that a fluff master. I'll think some more on integrating it.

4. Could have sworn it defaulted to charisma unless stated otherwise. Must have been something else I was thinking of. Sorry about that confusion.

7. I might shift it down some levels, with the 20th level ability basically giving full wish teleport. Thoughts on 15 becoming 10, 20 becoming 15, and 20 getting an upgrade?

4. Not sure if I wrote that but ok.

7. Eh. It looks fine, for the most part.

Weaponthane Ascendant has been linked along with the other PrCs.

[Tesla]

Another Prestige Class for the wonderful Evolutionist. Inspired by the Glare mutation.

Evolved Seer
'I see everything.' An Evolved Seer

Some people seek the power to enhance their sensory abilities to prevent others from catching them unaware. Others seek to control the sensory information that others receive to help catch them unaware. Then there are Evolved Seers, who seek to increase their sight to levels beyond any other, and to control the senses of others.

Their forms vary dramatically, but the one thing all Evolved Seers share is eyes. Some say that eyes are the windows to the soul, but for Evolved Seers eyes are a powerful weapon.

Entry Requirements
Feats: Ability Focus (Glare)
Skills: Search 8 ranks, and Spot 8 ranks.
Special: Darkvision mutation, Extra Senses mutation, and Glare mutation

HD: d8
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+0|Mutations, Eye Mutation, Dangerous Eye

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+0|Mutations, Eye Mutation

3rd|
+1|
+1|
+1|
+1|Mutations, Eye Mutation

4th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+1|Mutations, Eye Mutation, Precognitive Eye

5th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+1|Mutations, Eye Mutation

6th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+2|Mutations, Eye Mutation

7th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+2|Mutations, Eye Mutation, Prescient Eye

8th|
+4|
+2|
+2|
+2|Mutations, Eye Mutation

9th|
+4|
+3|
+3|
+3|Mutations, Eye Mutation

10th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+3|Mutations, Eye Mutation, Omnisight
[/table]
Class Skills (2 + Int Modifier): The Evolved Seer can choose the class skills of any one of their base classes to be their class skills for this class, this choice cannot be changed.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Evolved Seers gain no new proficiencies with weapons or armor.

Mutations: The Evolved Seer gains three mutations per level.

Eye Mutation: The Evolved Seer gains access to a special mutation list. Additionally they get one additional mutation per level that must be selected from this list.

Dangerous Eye: The Evolved Seer may take the Glare mutation once every two mutator levels instead of the normal once per three mutator levels. Additionally the Evolved Seer gains a bonus to Spot and Search checks equal to their Evolved Seer level.

Precognitive Eye: The Evolved Seer gains an insight bonus to armor class, attack rolls, damage rolls, and saving throws equal to one third their mutator level plus one. The bonus to saving throws is doubled against illusion based spells and abilities. They lose this bonus anytime they would lose their Dexterity bonus to armor class, and anytime that they are blinded.

Prescient Eye: The Evolved Seer can no longer be surprised. They can always take a standard action during a surprise round, unless they are physically restrained from doing so. If there is no surprise round then this ability doesn’t help. Additionally they gain an insight bonus to initiative rolls equal to one third their mutator level.

Omnisight: The Evolved Seer no longer takes a penalty to Spot when distracted, and their Spot skill is in effect even while they are asleep. They gain the ability to use Greater Scrying as a Supernatural ability a number of times per day equal to half their Evolved Seer level. (Save DC: 10 + half the Evolved Seer's mutator level + the Evolved Seer's Charisma modifier)

Eye Mutations: Unless otherwise noted the Glare mutations do not alter Gaze, and the Gaze mutations do not alter Glare.
Deadly Illusion [Supernatural]
Prerequisite: Glare, Hypnotic Eyes, Mutator level 12
Ability Score: Charisma
Benefit: The Evolved Seer can manipulate the senses of others to inflict tremendous fear. This effect works exactly like the Phantasmal Killer spell, except for its save DC, and partial effect. The target takes 1d6 damage per four mutator levels on a successful Fortitude save.
Further Mutations: This mutation can be taken once.

Death Glare [Supernatural]
Prerequisite: Glare
Ability Score: Charisma
Benefit: The Evolved Seer can fire a bolt of destructive energy against a target within 60 feet as a ranged touch attack, dealing 1d6 damage for every four mutator levels plus their Evolved Seer level. Any opponent hit by an Evolved Seer's Death Glare must make a save as though they were targeted with one of the Evolved Seer's Glare abilities with the following differences: the save DC is decreased by -2, and the duration is only one round.
Using Death Glare is a ranged attack action which provokes attacks of opportunity.
Further Mutations: Each time this mutation is taken, the Evolved Seer can fire an extra bolt of destructive energy as part of a full attack, and the range of the Death Glare increases by 20 feet. All iterative attacks with Death Glares use the Evolved Seer's highest attack bonus. This mutation can be taken once per five mutator levels.

Elemental Glare [Supernatural]
Prerequisite: Death Glare, Elemental Lance, Glare, Mutator level 11
Ability Score: None
Benefit: The Evolved Seer may empower their Death Glare with elemental power. Their Death Glares do an additional 1d6 damage for each iteration of Elemental Lance they have taken, this damage is of the same type as their strongest Elemental Lance.
Further Mutations: There is no point in taking this mutation more than once.

Empowered Glare [Supernatural]
Prerequisite: Glare
Ability Score: None
Benefit: The duration of the Evolved Seer's Glare effects are increased by 1d4 rounds.
Further Mutations: This mutation can be taken once per ten mutator levels.

Enlarged Glare [Supernatural]
Prerequisite: Glare
Ability Score: None
Benefit: The range of the Evolved Seer's Glare abilities is increased by 30 feet.
Further Mutations: This mutation can be taken once per five mutator levels.

Glare [Supernatural]
Prerequisite: None
Ability Score: None
Benefit: The Evolved Seer may use their required Eye Mutations on Glare.
Further mutations: This is an upgrade to the default Glare mutation, it is not a separate mutation from that one and shares the same limits.

Hypnotic Eyes [Supernatural]
Prerequisite: Glare
Ability Score: Charisma
Benefit: The Evolved Seer can manipulate the senses of others. This effect works exactly like the Major Image spell, except for its save DC, and duration. These illusions last for as long as the Evolved Seer concentrates.
Further Mutations: If this mutation is taken a second time the duration increases to one minuter per level as Persistent Image. This mutation can be taken once per ten levels up to two times.

Lie Detecting Eyes [Extraordinary]
Prerequisite: Extra Senses
Ability Score: None
Benefit: The Evolved Seer can see subtle changes as people lie. They may use their Spot skill instead of their Sense Motive skill to oppose Bluff checks.
Further Mutations: If this mutation is taken a second time the Evolved Seer may use their Search skill instead of their Forgery skill to detect forgeries. This mutation can be taken up two times.

Quickened Glare [Supernatural]
Prerequisite: Glare with a one round cooldown
Ability Score: None
Benefit: The Evolved Seer has no minimum cooldown on their Glare abilities, and all of their Glare abilities have their cooldown reduced by one round.
Further Mutations: If this mutation is taken a second time the Evolved Seer may use one of their Glare abilities as an attack action once per turn. This mutation can be taken once per ten mutator levels, up to two times.

Supernatural Eyes [Supernatural]
Prerequisite: Extra Senses, Mutator level 11
Ability Score: None
Benefit: The Evolved Seer's Darkvision pierces magical darkness as if it were normal darkness.
Further Mutations: If this mutation is taken a second time the Evolved Seer gains Arcane Sight as a permanent effect active on themself with a caster level equal to their mutator level. If this mutation is taken a third time the Evolved Seer gains True Seeing as a permanent effect active on themself with a caster level equal to their mutator level. This mutation can be taken once per seven levels, up to three times.

Versatile Glare [Supernatural]
Prerequisite: Two separate Glare abilities
Ability Score: None
Benefit: The Evolved Seer may use their best Glare cooldown on all of their Glare abilities.
Further Mutations: There is no point in taking this mutation more than once.

Widened Gaze [Supernatural]
Prerequisite: Gaze
Ability Score: None
Benefit: The range of the Evolved Seer's Gaze abilities is increased by 30 feet.
Further Mutations: This mutation can be taken once per ten mutator levels, up to two times.

[Draken]

This one will be a dozy.


Another Prestige Class for the wonderful Evolutionist. Inspired by the Glare mutation, and no real fluff for ease of use.

Evolved Seer
'I see everything.' An Evolved Seer

Entry Requirements
Feats: Ability Focus (Glare)
Skills: Search 8 ranks, and Spot 8 ranks.
Special: Extra Senses mutation, Glare mutation, and Umbravision mutation.

Umbravision in this case becomes a mandatory feat into Outsider, no real point to it.


HD: d8
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+0|Mutations, Eye Mutation, Eye Teratomorph II

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+0|Mutations, Eye Mutation

3rd|
+1|
+1|
+1|
+1|Mutations, Eye Mutation

4th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+1|Mutations, Eye Mutation, Eye Teratomorph III

5th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+1|Mutations, Eye Mutation

6th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+2|Mutations, Eye Mutation

7th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+2|Mutations, Eye Mutation, Eye Teratomorph IV

8th|
+4|
+2|
+2|
+2|Mutations, Eye Mutation

9th|
+4|
+3|
+3|
+3|Mutations, Eye Mutation

10th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+3|Mutations, Eye Mutation, Eye Teratomorph V
[/table]
Class Skills (2 + Int Modifier): The Evolved Seer can choose the class skills of any one of their base classes to be their class skills for this class, this choice cannot be changed.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Evolved Seers gain no new proficiencies with weapons or armor.

Carry on.


Mutations: The Evolved Seer gains three mutations per level.

Eye Mutation: The Evolved Seer gains access to a special mutation list. Additionally they get one additional mutation per level that must be selected from this list.

Reasonable. But there is a problem that will be adressed later.


Eye Teratomorph: The Evolved Seer gains a teratomorphism at their first, fourth, seventh, and tenth levels. These teratomorphisms must be drawn from the following list. This ability also counts as having unlocked the appropriately ranked teratomorphisms when gaining a teratomorphism from any other class.

Teratomorph II:
Improved Vision: The Evolved Seer may take the Glare mutation once every two mutator levels instead of the normal once per three mutator levels. Additionally the Evolved Seer gains a bonus to Spot and Search checks equal to the number of teratomorphisms they have.

Teratomorph III:
Greater Vision (Requires Improved Vision): The Evolved Seer gains an insight bonus to armor class, attack rolls, damage rolls, and saving throws equal to the number of teratomorphisms they have. They lose this bonus anytime they would lose their Dexterity bonus to armor class, and anytime that they are blinded.

Teratomorph IV:
Superior Vision (Requires Greater Vision): The Evolved Seer can no longer be surprised. They can always take a standard action during a surprise round, unless they are physically restrained from doing so. If there is no surprise round then this ability doesn’t help. Additionally they gain an insight bonus to initiative rolls equal to the number of teratomorphisms they have.

Teratomorph V:
Omniscient Vision (Requires Superior Vision): The Evolved Seer gains All-Around Vision (+4 to Spot and Search. Can no longer be flanked.) They no longer take a penalty to Spot when distracted, and their Spot skill is in effect even while they are asleep, albeit at a -10 penalty. Additionally they may use Scrying as a Supernatural ability once per day. (Save DC: 10 + half the Evolved Seer's mutator level + the Evolved Seer's Charisma modifier)


Here we have a minor issue. Namely, teratomorphs are choices. There is no choice here whatsoever. These should lose the "Teratomorph" appelation and merely become their own individual class features.

Also the names are kind of bland. last one should probably be renamed as Omnisight. Anyway, onto their individual issues:

Improved Vision: Like I said, change these to not be teratomorphisms and change the bonus to be outright class level based.

Greater Vision: Same as before.

Superior Vision: This one is weird. it is not so much about vision as it is about reaction time. Needs to be reconsidered.

Omniscient Vision: By parts:

The Evolved Seer gains All-Around Vision (+4 to Spot and Search. Can no longer be flanked.)

Extra Senses does this with the second or third acquisition. I would have to check.

They no longer take a penalty to Spot when distracted, and their Spot skill is in effect even while they are asleep, albeit at a -10 penalty.

Interesting but far from great. In fact, Quick Reconnoiter (feat in Dungeonscape) is arguably equivalent while avaiable much earlier.

Additionally they may use Scrying as a Supernatural ability once per day. (Save DC: 10 + half the Evolved Seer's mutator level + the Evolved Seer's Charisma modifier)

4th ish level spell. Once per day. At level 15. Gotta be honest here. Pass.


Eye Mutations: Unless otherwise noted the Glare mutations do not alter Gaze, and the Gaze mutations do not alter Glare.
Death Glare [Supernatural]
Prerequisite: Glare
Ability Score: Charisma
Benefit: The Evolved Seer can fire a bolt of destructive energy against a target within 60 feet as a ranged touch attack, dealing 1d6 damage for every four mutator levels. Any opponent hit by an Evolved Seer's Death Glare must then save against one of their Glare abilities. The Glare effect caused by this ability is weakened. The save DC is decreased by -2, and the duration of the effect is only one round.
Using Death Glare is a ranged attack action which provokes attacks of opportunity.
Further Mutations: Each time this mutation is taken, the Evolved Seer can fire an extra bolt of destructive energy as part of a full attack, and the range of the Death Glare increases by 20 feet. All iterative attacks with Death Glares use the Evolved Seer's highest attack bonus. This mutation can be taken once per five mutator levels.

Weirdly worded. Questionable utility.

Elemental Glare [Supernatural]
Prerequisite: Death Glare, Elemental Lance, Glare, Mutator level 11
Ability Score: None
Benefit: The Evolved Seer may empower their Death Glare with elemental power. Their Death Glares do an additional 1d6 damage for each iteration of Elemental Lance they have taken, this damage is of the same type as their strongest Elemental Lance.
Further Mutations: There is no point in taking this mutation more than once.

Elemental lance remains bjectively better if you just want to hurt things.

Empowered Glare [Supernatural]
Prerequisite: Glare
Ability Score: None
Benefit: The duration of the Evolved Seer's Glare effects is increased by 1d4 rounds.
Further Mutations: This mutation can be taken once per ten mutator levels.

This is good.

Enlarged Glare [Supernatural]
Prerequisite: Glare
Ability Score: None
Benefit: The range of the Evolved Seer's Glare abilities is increased by 30 feet.
Further Mutations: This mutation can be taken once per five mutator levels.

Reasonable.

Farsighted Eyes [Extraordinary]
Prerequisite: Extra Senses
Ability Score: None
Benefit: The Evolved Seer is better at seeing things at a distance. They take a distance penalty on Spot every 20 feet instead of the normal 10 feet.
Further Mutations: This mutation can be taken once.

Questionable worth.

Heightened Glare [Supernatural]
Prerequisite: Glare, Mutator level 11
Ability Score: None
Benefit: The save DC of the Evolved Seer's Glare abilities is increased by +1
Further Mutations: This mutation can be taken once.

Boring.

Lie Detecting Eyes [Extraordinary]
Prerequisite: Extra Senses
Ability Score: None
Benefit: The Evolved Seer can see subtle changes as people lie. They may use their Spot skill instead of their Sense Motive skill to oppose Bluff checks.
Further Mutations: If this mutation is taken a second time the Evolved Seer may use their Search skill instead of their Forgery skill to detect forgeries. This mutation can be taken up two times.

Looks more like a single feat than a mutation.

Quickened Glare [Supernatural]
Prerequisite: Glare with a one round cooldown
Ability Score: None
Benefit: The Evolved Seer may use any Glare ability that has a one round cooldown as an at will ability.
Further Mutations: If this mutation is taken a second time the Evolved Seer may use one of their at will Glare abilities as an attack action once per turn. This mutation can be taken once per ten mutator levels, up to two times.

Weird wording.

Versatile Glare [Supernatural]
Prerequisite: Two separate Glare abilities
Ability Score: None
Benefit: The Evolved Seer may use their best Glare cooldown on all of their Glare abilities.
Further Mutations: There is no point in taking this mutation more than once.

Decent.

Widened Gaze [Supernatural]
Prerequisite: Gaze
Ability Score: None
Benefit: The range of the Evolved Seer's Gaze abilities is increased by 30 feet.
Further Mutations: This mutation can be taken once.

Decent. I would have made it go up to double size, however.


One hidden issue, however, is this.

This is a total of 18 mutations to be chosen, at least two of which only come online after after you are done with the class. So 16. A tiny pool from which to draw your 10 mutations. A few of these are... Not all that great either.

Overall, I see a lot of issues.

It also paints a good image of why I put odd themes in the evolutionist PrCs. The Evolutionist base class is really great at generic fluff. And while the themes are not mandatory (Diciples of Thessala and Malshaper's don't have to worship their respective undivine patrons, for instance), they serve to tie together what could otherwise be nothing more than disconnected abilities and give it some personality. That is the point of PrCs, I think, they need to have a personality of their own moreso than base classes.

[Rizban]

Just checked, much more streamlined and easy to use. I approve! I would just set Mutable Soul to 5 minutes so that it matches Anomalous.I had considered that. Reinvesting essentia is normally a swift action, though you normally can only invest in feats once per day. I decided in the end that a full-round action would make it slightly more attractive than Anomalous but slightly most costly than normal essentia investment. Also remember that being an [incarnum] feat, its effects are suppressed in an antimagic field, causing you to lose any mutation you have gained from it. With that in mind, I did not see a problem with making it a bit faster than Anomalous.

[Omnicrat]

I would call a bit faster than anomalous 1 minute, not a full-round action. That is a lot faster.

[Rizban]

5 mins > 1 min > 1 round > full-round action > standard action > move action > swift action

Anomalous = 5 mins.
Invest Essentia = Swift
Three steps to the right from Anomalous = Full-Round Action
Three steps to the left from Invest Essentia = Full-Round Action

Seemed like the most reasonable to me... :smallconfused:

[Draken]

I would call a bit faster than anomalous 1 minute, not a full-round action. That is a lot faster.

Not really, actually.By the end of edition 3.5, D&D designers pretty much used "5 minutes" to mean "encounter". It is an arbitrary value to make the baility unfeasible to use in combat.

As a full-round action, it is an ability that can be used midfight, specially if the mutations you want to pick up are defensive, swift actions, free actions or otherwise passive. Quite useful, I would say.

Anyway, no issues with it then.