The better man? There is no such thing [base class]

[Tesla]

[Prerequisites] 1. Umbravision replaced with Darkvision.

[Teratomorph] 2. Eye Teratomorphisms have been changed into individual class features.

[Teratomorph IV] 3. Superior Vision/Prescient Eye is meant to provide a bonus representative of insight of events yet to happen along with Greater Vision/Precognitive Eye.

[Teratomorph V] 4. That is accurate in a way, as Improved Uncanny Dodge is very similar. So that ability has been removed. Quick Reconnoiter allows you to make a Spot/Listen check as a free action, but I did not see anything about Spot being usable while asleep. Which is not that great of an ability to be honest, but befitting for someone who is supposed to be aware of everything. Still it has been upgraded to be more in line with a cap stone ability. Scrying changed to Greater Scrying, and usable up to five times a day.

[Death Glare] 5. I like the idea of Death Glare as adding some damage output, and providing more avenues to apply Glare effects. However it has been changed to be hopefully better worded, and a bit more viable.

[Elemental Glare] 6. If you just want to hurt things then Elemental Lance is better, but if you want to hurt with a chance for nifty status effects without teratomorphisms then Death Glare has an edge. Additionally since you have to have Elemental Lance already you get quite a few attack actions with this combination.

[Farsighted Eyes, Heightened Glare] 7. Considering what the Evolutionist is meant to embody, these have been removed as the aim is more for Awesome, but Practical.

[Lie Detecting Eyes] 8. This will most likely tie into the flavor that will be worked on, and is admittedly inspired by a particular eye from a series I read.

[Quickened Glare] 9. Wording adjusted.

[Mutations] 10. I admit that I may have run out of steam on the list. Since there should not be a huge problem with some overlap I added Umbravision/Arcane Sight/True Seeing as a mutation tree. Additionally I have added several other mutations that should fit with the class when I am done adding flavor.

[Flavor] 11. This is a fair point, and so I will work on adding flavor soon. Still the crunch is there in case someone wants to rate it, and the fluff is on the way. Thank you for the advice.

[Mithril Leaf]

I dropped the levels of the rift ability down 3 each. I feel a lot better about those points looking at it now.

[Omnicrat]

I wasn't saying it was too fast, just much faster than 5 min. If you go from never during combat to a few times in an encounter, that's a lot faster.

[Rizban]

So... It's like gaining a new ability from leveling up? From never to a few times?

But really, if you're spending full-rounds actions to repeatedly change some of your mutations in combat, you're wasting your actions. Once is all you should ever need in combat.

I do think, however, that I will add a caveat disallowing a "refresh" on times per day for limited use mutations.

[Zireael]

Is there a list of all associated PrCs somewhere?
I like the ideas!

[Mithril Leaf]

Is there a list of all associated PrCs somewhere?
I like the ideas!

Look child, gaze upon the class itself (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13115751&postcount=5).

[Durazno]

Selinia's Progenitor PrC probably makes this unnecessary, but I do occasionally find myself pondering what a PrC intended for evolutionists multiclassing into Lix Lorn's Swarmlord class would look like. (I was going to call it "dual progression," but that wouldn't quite be right...)

[Zireael]

I like the progenitor class.

How about making a PrC for a mutator's natural, literal offspring?

[Draken]

Selinia's Progenitor PrC probably makes this unnecessary, but I do occasionally find myself pondering what a PrC intended for evolutionists multiclassing into Lix Lorn's Swarmlord class would look like. (I was going to call it "dual progression," but that wouldn't quite be right...)

The progenitor does fill that niche, to an extent. But there is also the detail that the Swarmlord does a lot and has a lot of potential power. A dual progression class would be hard to balance.


I like the progenitor class.

How about making a PrC for a mutator's natural, literal offspring?

That would be better shaped by a feat or maybe a "build it yourself" race, than by a prestige class. Or maybe simply by taking levels of evolutionist on the offspring itself.

[Durazno]

A bloodline might work, too.

And yeah, dual-progression with the Swarmlord would probably be overkill. A short PrC with synergistic abilities might be doable, though. I'll be thinking about it (and other, equally absurd prospects), anyway.

[Gideon Falcon]

So, it occurred to me, can the Arms of the outer planes weapon be stored in an actual sheath, in order to benefit from Quick Draw?

[Draken]

Changelog:

Innate List:
Chameleonic - now grants the ability to hide even without cover or concealment once it has been purchased three times and hide in plain sight when it is taken four times.

Elemental List:
Elemental Breach - Now allows a fortitude save for half damage, but deals damage more consistently.

Plant List:
Grove - Elemental Dominion text expanded with examples of the potential of the ability. Special line added regarding evolutionists with Elemental Perfection and Grove.

Outsider List
Arms of the Outer Planes - wording change to allow the weapon to be kept on you without being held or poked once every ten rounds.

[AmberVael]

Evolve Racial Potential
Prerequisite: Appropriate race
Ability Score: None
Benefit: The evolutionist gains a racial feat as a bonus feat. A racial feat is a feat that has the evolutionist’s (original) race as a prerequisite. The evolutionist must also attend any other prerequisites the feat might have. This mutation cannot be used to take Mutator feats.
Further Mutations: This mutation can be taken once per three mutator levels.
How broad is this meant to be?
It's pretty clear that it should work for anything with the [Racial] tag, or for race specific feats (Warforged, Shifter, Changeling, etc), but I'm less certain on other cases. What about feats that have the requirement of a certain template, such as Half-Dragon, Half-Celestial, and others? What about some of the feats from Races of the Dragon, which require the Dragonblooded subtype rather than a specific race? Or something like Aberration Blood, which requires you to be humanoid and have some aberration heritage?

I feel like maybe this could be clarified a bit.

[strawberryman]

One inherent flaw of the system, of course, is that an evo shooting for a tier 4 build will... Well. He will do whatever it is he is focused on doing, really, really well. Excessively well, indeed. A friend running a campaign threw us at an evolutionist dungeon* a few weeks ago, and included such jewels as a sentry who could simply not be stealthed past (deranged spot modifiers, not that we had any notable stealth capabilities anyway) and a social encounter that snorted at our sense motive attempts. The fights were pretty great and varied, however.

*Monster girl dungeon, to be precise.

I didn't know I was a friend. Also I deny any accusations levied here. It was a science dungeon.

[Draken]

I didn't know I was a friend. Also I deny any accusations levied here. It was a science dungeon.

You are one of those friends about whom you don't speak to your family or the rest of your friends. :smalltongue:


How broad is this meant to be?
It's pretty clear that it should work for anything with the [Racial] tag, or for race specific feats (Warforged, Shifter, Changeling, etc), but I'm less certain on other cases. What about feats that have the requirement of a certain template, such as Half-Dragon, Half-Celestial, and others? What about some of the feats from Races of the Dragon, which require the Dragonblooded subtype rather than a specific race? Or something like Aberration Blood, which requires you to be humanoid and have some aberration heritage?

I feel like maybe this could be clarified a bit.

THIS.

Is an issue with WotC being stupid. Technically all the feats you described (other than Aberration Blood) should have the racial tag. ERP allows you to take any of those feats you mentioned (besides Aberration Blood, that is). The feats that require the Dragonblood subtype also don't apply, by default, because they require a broad group (a subtype), not a specific race.

[Omnicrat]

Is the mutation that gave any feat gone? Because it was a fine mutation. Especially now that Great Changer is gone. If you took it out because of its interaction with Great Changer, maybe you should put it back in.

[Ridai]

@Omnicrat: Look for Evolve Talent in the Basic Mutations section.

[Omnicrat]

Lol, dammit. I look through every mutation list several times before posting. Don't know how I missed it. :smallbiggrin:

[Necroticplague]

Just some small notes:
The Benefit and Further Mutations are redundant for Natural Armor except one scenario(if you take it at level 1). If you took it as often as you could, you would only end up with 2/3rds progression.

Frightful Prescence's Further mutation increases the duration of paralysis, but caused Frightening, not Paralysis.

Anything requiring "A natural weapon" isn't a real limit due to all evolutionists having an unarmed strike (similarly, "a bludgeoning natural attack" is also not an issue for the same reason).

Minor Mutilate typo: "and ever tear..." should be "and even tear..."

Spines Further Mutations is already stated in its Benefits, it doesn't need the first sentence(unless it's intended that each time you take it actually gives yo two more spines).

Change Shape states that True Seeing spells and similar see the form with mutations as the evolutionist's true form, but doesn't outright state the form with mutations is their true form (which can interact oddly with "reverts to true form on death").

Dimension Door doesn't give a minimum cooldown time. As a result, you can use it multiple times a round once one takes it five time (not sure if intentional or not).

Elemental Lance doesn't give a limit on uses per round other than action cost, but a limit seems to be implied by its Further Mutations. How many times can an Evolutionist with +6/+1 who only took elemental lance once fire it?

[Draken]

Just some small notes:
The Benefit and Further Mutations are redundant for Natural Armor except one scenario(if you take it at level 1). If you took it as often as you could, you would only end up with 2/3rds progression.[quote]

You know what, screw that line. One point of natural armor isn't going to break level 1. Line removed.

[quote]Frightful Prescence's Further mutation increases the duration of paralysis, but caused Frightening, not Paralysis.

Holdover from the fact that those things are usually refered to as "paralyzed in fright". Adressed.


Anything requiring "A natural weapon" isn't a real limit due to all evolutionists having an unarmed strike (similarly, "a bludgeoning natural attack" is also not an issue for the same reason).

I know. But changing that stuff would simply be too much effort. >_>

I am quite positive that there are no instances that call for a bludgeoning natural attack, however. All of those explicitly demand Slams.


Minor Mutilate typo: "and ever tear..." should be "and even tear..."

Adressed.


Spines Further Mutations is already stated in its Benefits, it doesn't need the first sentence(unless it's intended that each time you take it actually gives yo two more spines).

Redundancy adressed.


Change Shape states that True Seeing spells and similar see the form with mutations as the evolutionist's true form, but doesn't outright state the form with mutations is their true form (which can interact oddly with "reverts to true form on death").

Adressed.


Dimension Door doesn't give a minimum cooldown time. As a result, you can use it multiple times a round once one takes it five time (not sure if intentional or not).

Adressed.


Elemental Lance doesn't give a limit on uses per round other than action cost, but a limit seems to be implied by its Further Mutations. How many times can an Evolutionist with +6/+1 who only took elemental lance once fire it?

Adressed.

[Zireael]

How would this class work with the Biollurgist from the magitek thread?

[Draken]

There is pretty much no interaction between them whatsoever.

I mean, other than SilverOuts, Gramarie is extremely self-contained, it doesn't really 'play' with anything else in the system as far as combos go.

One option would be to grant mutations instead of xenoalchemical grafts to chassis, but that would require some work to make a good exchange rate between the two.

[Necroticplague]

There is pretty much no interaction between them whatsoever.

I mean, other than SilverOuts, Gramarie is extremely self-contained, it doesn't really 'play' with anything else in the system as far as combos go.

One option would be to grant mutations instead of xenoalchemical grafts to chassis, but that would require some work to make a good exchange rate between the two.

Well, one could simply define the "graft level" of a mutation based on minimum minimum mutator level, and comparing it to the minimum level needed to take a graft, keeping any prerequisites. For example, Mutilate could be a second level graft based that can only be applied to something with a bite attack. You'd have to jury rig the graft slot, but most would be easy, especially since it's a valid option to have one of several for most things. Mutilate would obviously be a Head graft, in this case. Bash would be whatever limb the slam attack is connected to.Things that effect your totality, like Fast healing or Natural Invisibility are probably Body grafts. If you want to avoid actual evolutionists and gramarists gaining access to evolutions at the same rate (however indirectly), you could do the above, but increase the level by one. So Natural Armor would be second level, and no mutations would be level one mutations.

[Gideon Falcon]

So, is Disciple of Thessala a type of things to come, then? Making prestige classes associated with iconic monsters? Because I very much like that idea.

[Draken]

So, is Disciple of Thessala a type of things to come, then? Making prestige classes associated with iconic monsters? Because I very much like that idea.

The Malshaper was the basis for that, actually. Being associated with the elder evil Ragnorra.

Other than that, Selinia is working on a Tarrasque PrC, I have one based on the Spell Weaver in its final stages and one based on Mak Thuum Ngatha in the absolutely earliest stages.

[Omnicrat]

Still working on those gramarie PrCs or have they fallen by the wayside?

[Draken]

Still working on those gramarie PrCs or have they fallen by the wayside?

Fallen by the wayside. Specially after I noticed that the gramaria PrCs are not actually dual-progression PrCs, they just give bonuses on the side, from a fully gramarist base.

Making a principle progression was just driving me nuts.

[Gideon Falcon]

Here's a few new mutations you could use:

Wing buffet
Prerequisites: Wings (As from the flight taratamorphism or the Vestigial wings mutation)
Benefit: You gain a pair of wing attacks as secondary natural weapons, dealing 1d4 damage plus half your strength modifier, which cannot be used while flying.
Further mutations: You may gain this mutation only once. You may, however, use the Natural weapons mutation to increase the damage.

Trip
Prerequisites: natural weapon, mutator level 3.
Benefit: when you successfully hit with the natural weapon you select when taking this mutation, you may immediately make a trip attempt without the need to make a touch attack, and you do not provoke attacks of opportunity or have a chance to be tripped back.

[Draken]

Here's a few new mutations you could use:

Wing buffet
Prerequisites: Wings (As from the flight taratamorphism or the Vestigial wings mutation)
Benefit: You gain a pair of wing attacks as secondary natural weapons, dealing 1d4 damage plus half your strength modifier, which cannot be used while flying.
Further mutations: You may gain this mutation only once. You may, however, use the Natural weapons mutation to increase the damage.

Trip
Prerequisites: natural weapon, mutator level 3.
Benefit: when you successfully hit with the natural weapon you select when taking this mutation, you may immediately make a trip attempt without the need to make a touch attack, and you do not provoke attacks of opportunity or have a chance to be tripped back.

I will add somehting to these effects on the next update.

[bobthe6th]

OK, this is going to be an attempt to make the "deathlessionist" real rather then a bit DM fiat.


Honored
The Honored is a new subtype of deathless, a being not wholly deathless but not exactly alive either. Honored combine aspects of both deathless and living creatures, as detailed below.
Features: A honored derives its Hit Dice, base attack bonus progression, saving throws, and skill points from the class it selects. Traits: A honored possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

Unlike other deathless, a honored has a Constitution score. A honored creature gains (or loses) bonus hit points through a Constitution bonus (or penalty) as with other living creatures.
Unlike other deathless, a honored does not have low-light vision or darkvision, by default.
Unlike other deathless, a honored is not immune to mind-influencing effects.
Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, disease, nausea, fatigue, exhaustion, and energy drain.
Unlike other deathless, honored are subject to critical hits, effects requiring a Fort save, death from massive damage, nonlethal damage, stunning, ability damage, ability drain, and death effects or necromancy effects.
Honored can be affected by spells that target living creatures as well as by those that target deathless. They are healed by positive energy and harmed by negative energy as undead are.
A honored responds slightly differently from other living creatures when reduced to 0 hit points. A honored with 0 hit points is disabled, just like a living creature. He can only take a single move action or standard action in each round, but strenuous activity does not risk further injury. When his hit points are less than 0 and greater than –10, a honored is inert. He is unconscious and helpless, and he cannot perform any actions. However, an inert honored does not lose additional hit points unless more damage is dealt to him, as with a living creature that is stable.
Can be raised or resurrected.
Does not need to eat, sleep, or breathe, but can still benefit from the effects of consumable spells and magic items such as heroes’ feast and potions.
Does not need to sleep, but must rest for 8 hours before preparing spells.


Deathless
This list of mutations is available to all evolutionists of the Deathless type and those who take the Deathless Mutator feat.

Teratomorphisms:
Teratomorph I

Holy Toughness: The evolutionist uses his charisma modifier to determine his hit points (instead of his constitution modifier if he has one).


Teratomorph II

Venerable [Reduced] I: The evolutionist takes only half damage from piercing attacks.
Venerable [Preserved Flesh] I: The evolutionist takes only half damage from bludgeoning attacks.
Venerable [Strong Skin] I: The evolutionist takes only half damage from slashing attacks.


Teratomorph III

Consume Life: Whenever the evolutionist inflicts ability penalties, damage, ability drain or negative levels with a supernatural, spell-like or psi-like ability, he heals 5 hit points for each point of penalty, damage, drain or negative level dealt. If he is at full health he gains the same amount of temporary hit points as he would have healed. These temporary hit points last for up to 1 hour.


Teratomorph IV

Venerable [Reduced] II (Requires Venerable [Reduced] I): The evolutionist is immune to piercing damage.
Venerable [Preserved Flesh] II (Requires Venerable [Preserved Flesh] I): The evolutionist is immune to bludgeoning damage.
Venerable [Strong Skin] II (Requires Venerable [Strong Skin] I): The evolutionist is immune to slashing damage.


Teratomorph V

Rejuvenation: The evolutionist knows he must preserver in the face of eternity. He may perform a ritual, taking eight hours, to bind his life force to a specific place or to an object, the evolutionist may only have one place or object affected by this ritual at any one time and is always aware of whether it is active or not. Whenever the evolutionist dies, he will reform after 1d6+4 days on the place or next to the object he has bound his life force to, suffering no penalties for this resurrection. This revival can be prevented, however. The ritual is broken if the place the evolutionist has bound his life force to is subjected to a Desecrate or Unhallow spell, or if the object he has bound his life force to is destroyed. Places and objects subject to this ritual exude an aura of necromancy with a caster level equal to the evolutionist’s mutator level.


Teratomorph VI

Incorporeality: The evolutionist can, as a standard action, become incorporeal indefinitely (along with all of his carried equipment), or return to a corporeal state with a similar action. While incorporeal the evolutionist is weightless and may fly at his base land speed with perfect maneuverability, he may add his dexterity modifier to attack melee rolls, but has no effective strength score for the duration.


Mutant Ascendancy: The evolutionist gains the option to ascend into an Deathless being, somewhat. This ascendancy has a few special interactions with other creature types.
Deathless ascendants gain Darkvision with a range of 60 feet (or increase existing Darkvision by 60 feet), additionally, if the ascendant’s previous type was not undead or construct she gains the Unghastly subtype, if she had the construct type she retains it and gains the Posogolem subtype instead of changing types. Lastly, the evolutionist gains the following ability:

Deathless: The evolutionist gains a +2 bonus to fortitude and will saves. And may attempt to turn and destroy undead once every five turns, with an effective cleric level equal to his mutator level.

As a final note, ascendancy cannot resurrect the Deathless. Should a Deathless creature elect to take an ascendancy for a creature type other than its own, it retains the Deathless type and gains the new type as an Augmented subtype, and does not gain the choice to lose that augmented subtype upon achieving mutant perfection, it still receives both the benefits of the chosen mutant ascendancy and mutant perfection.


Mutant Perfection: There is a tiny fountain of light within each Deathless being that is linked ever so slightly to the endless cornucopia of the Positive Energy Plane, the evolutionist has opened that floodgate within his life-touched soul and externalized it wholly. The evolutionist generates a field with a radius of 20 feet that mimics the effects of the Minor Positive Dominant planar trait, in addition, the area immediately adjacent to the evolutionist carries the Major Positive Dominant planar trait, with a save DC against negative levels of 10 + ½ mutator level + Cha mod.
The evolutionist can suppress this ability as a swift action.

Mutations:

Consecration [Supernatural]
Prerequisite: -
Ability Score: None
Benefit: The evolutionist produces an effect identical to the Consecrate spell, centered on him.
Further Mutations: If this mutation is taken a second time, the evolutionist is treated as an altar to an holy power for the purposes of the consecrate effect. This mutation can be taken up to two times.

Holy Grace [Supernatural]
Prerequisite: +2 base bonus on the appropriate save.
Ability Score: None
Benefit: The evolutionist chooses one of his saves (Fortitude, Reflex or Will). He may add his charisma modifier as a bonus on that save.
Further Mutations: Each time this mutation is taken, the evolutionist chooses a new save. This mutation can be taken up to three times.

Turn Resistance [Extraordinaire]
Prerequisite: -
Ability Score: None
Benefit: The evolutionist’s turn resistance increases by +2.
Further Mutations: -


So far, so good. Now the other mutations... and the main reason for a full conversion. All of these seem odd to do a flat flip on, so I am going to suggest changes, that will be listed after the original mutations.







Odd mutations:
Create Spawn [Supernatural]
Prerequisite: Mutator level 7, Desecration, Energy Drain or Debilitate
Ability Score: None
Benefit: Creatures the evolutionist kills that are afflicted by ability penalty or negative levels inflicted by him with supernatural abilities are raised as zombies or skeletons one minute later. The evolutionist can control up to his mutator level in undead HD.

Further Mutations: Each time this mutation is taken after the first, the limit of controlled undead HD increases by the evolutionist’s mutator level. This mutation can be taken once per four mutator levels.
Special: This mutation counts as a necromancy spell for the purposes of feats and abilities that alter such effects.

Energy Drain [Supernatural]
Prerequisite: Negaton Touch, Mutator level 6
Ability Score: Charisma
Benefit: As a standard action that requires a touch attack, or whenever he wins a grapple check, the evolutionist may inflict one negative level to a victim. When he deals a negative level, the evolutionist may opt to also inflict the damage of his Negaton Touch on the victim.
Negative levels inflicted with this mutation last for up to one hour per mutator level, so it only risks becoming permanent level loss at epic levels.
Further Mutations: This mutation can be taken once per ten mutator levels, each time it is taken, the number of negative levels inflicted increases by 1. Negaton touch damage can be inflicted separately with each negative level applied.

Debilitate [Supernatural]
Prerequisite: Negaton Touch, Mutator level 4.
Ability Score: None
Benefit: The evolutionist’s negaton touch attacks inflict a penalty to his target’s ability scores. He must chose which ability score this mutation affects upon selecting it, and inflicts 1d3 point of ability penalty for one minute on a successful attack. Ability penalties to the same score do not stack, only the highest one applies and the duration is set by the last appication. This ability is considered a negative energy effect.
Further Mutations: The evolutionist can chose to penalize additional ability scores when taking this mutation further or he can increase the penalty dealt by one (to 1d3+1, 1d3+2, etc). This mutation can be taken once per three mutator levels.

Negaton Shield [Extraordinaire]
Prerequisite: -
Ability Score: None.
Benefit: The evolutionist gains resistance 5 to positive energy and to negative energy. This resistance does not interfere with healing granted by either of those energies, only damage.
Further Mutations: -

Negaton Blast [Supernatural]
Prerequisite: Negaton Shield, Mutator level 2.
Ability Score: None
Benefit: The evolutionist can deliver a blast of negative energy as a ranged touch attack against an enemy within 60 feet. This blast deals 1d4 damage per two mutator levels. Firing a negaton blast is a standard action.
Further Mutations: Each instance of this mutation after the first can either increase the range of the negaton blast by 20 feet or increase the damage die by one step, to a maximum of 1d8 damage per two mutator levels. If this mutation is taken at least four times, the Negaton Blast can be used as an attack action instead of a standard action, and up to one blast can be fired for each time this mutation was taken. This mutation can be taken once per three mutator levels.

Negaton Infusion [Supernatural]
Prerequisite: Negaton Touch applied to claw or slam attack (or any other natural attack that can be used to wield a weapon).
Ability Score: None
Benefit: The evolutionist may choose one natural weapon he has applied negaton touch to. Any manufactured weapon he wields in place of that natural weapon receives the benefits of negaton touch.
Further Mutations: Each time this mutation is taken, the evolutionist must apply it to a different natural weapon.

Negaton Touch [Supernatural]
Prerequisite: Negaton Shield, any one natural weapon.
Ability Score: None
Benefit: The evolutionist chooses one natural weapon he has, that natural weapon deals additional negative energy damage equal to 1d6 + half his mutator level. In addition, the evolutionist can, instead of making a normal attack, make a touch attack with the any limb that received negaton touch, dealing only the damage from negaton touch if he does this. Touch attacks made with this mutation are considered attacks made with the natural weapon that received it.
This ability can be deactivated or activated as a free action at any time.
Further Mutations: Each time this mutation is taken the evolutionist can either increase the damage of his negaton touch by 1d6 or add the damage to another natural weapon. This mutation can be taken once per three mutator levels.

Gloom [Supernatural]
Prerequisite: -
Ability Score: None.
Benefit: The evolutionist projects a radius of shadowy illumination with a radius of 10 feet centered on him, similar to the Darkness spell. If the radius of this ability overlaps with that of a light spell or effect, the one with the lowest effective spell level is suppressed (but not dispelled), the effective spell level of this ability is equal to the number of times the mutation is taken.
This ability can be suppressed or activated as a swift action.
Further Mutations: Each time this mutation is taken after the first, the radius of the effect increases by 10 feet. If this mutation is taken at least four times, the evolutionist may chose to emit complete darkness instead of shadowy illumination. If this mutation is taken at least seven times, the evolutionist may chose to emit a thick, inky darkness that obscures all sight, including darkvision, beyond 5 feet. A creature within 5 feet has concealment (attacks have a 20% miss chance). Creatures farther away have total concealment (50% miss chance, and the attacker can’t use sight to locate the target), the evolutionist himself may still treat this as if it were complete darkness. This mutation can be taken once per two mutator levels.


Suggested replacements:
Glow [Supernatural]
Prerequisite: -
Ability Score: None.
Benefit: The evolutionist projects a radius of dim illumination with a radius of 10 feet centered on him, similar to the Light spell. If the radius of this ability overlaps with that of a darkness spell or effect, the one with the lowest effective spell level is suppressed (but not dispelled), the effective spell level of this ability is equal to the number of times the mutation is taken.
This ability can be suppressed or activated as a swift action.
Further Mutations: Each time this mutation is taken after the first, the radius of the effect increases by 10 feet. If this mutation is taken at least four times, the evolutionist may chose to emit Bright light instead of dim light. If this mutation is taken at least seven times, the evolutionist may chose to emit a impossibly bright light. All creatures are effectively blinded by it as long as they stay within 5ft of the light source. The bright light also makes it hard to see into, giving creatures total concealment(attacks have a 50% miss chance) if they are within 5ft of the light source, and concealment (attacks have a 20% miss chance) if they are within 20ft of the light source. the evolutionist himself may still treat this as if it were bright light. This mutation can be taken once per two mutator levels.

Positon Shield [Extraordinaire]
Prerequisite: -
Ability Score: None.
Benefit: The evolutionist gains resistance 5 to positive energy and to negative energy. This resistance does not interfere with healing granted by either of those energies, only damage.
Further Mutations: -

Positon Blast [Supernatural]
Prerequisite: Positon Shield, Mutator level 2.
Ability Score: None
Benefit: The evolutionist can deliver a blast of divine energy as a ranged touch attack against an enemy within 60 feet. This blast deals 1d4 damage per two mutator levels. Firing a positon blast is a standard action.
Further Mutations: Each instance of this mutation after the first can either increase the range of the positon blast by 20 feet or increase the damage die by one step, to a maximum of 1d8 damage per two mutator levels. If this mutation is taken at least four times, the Positon Blast can be used as an attack action instead of a standard action, and up to one blast can be fired for each time this mutation was taken. This mutation can be taken once per three mutator levels.

Positon Smite [Supernatural]
Prerequisite: Positon Shield, any one natural weapon.
Ability Score: None
Benefit:chooses one natural weapon he has, that natural weapon deals additional divine energy damage equal to 1d4 + half his mutator level. In addition, the evolutionist can, instead of making a normal attack, make a touch attack with the any limb that received positon smite, dealing only the damage from positon smite if he does this. Touch attacks made with this mutation are considered attacks made with the natural weapon that received it.
This ability can be deactivated or activated as a free action at any time.
Further Mutations: Each time this mutation is taken the evolutionist can either increase the damage of his positon smite by 1d4 or add the damage to another natural weapon. This mutation can be taken once per three mutator levels.

Positon Infusion [Supernatural]
Prerequisite: Positon smite applied to claw or slam attack (or any other natural attack that can be used to wield a weapon).
Ability Score: None
Benefit: The evolutionist may choose one natural weapon he has applied Positon smite to. Any manufactured weapon he wields in place of that natural weapon receives the benefits of positon smite.
Further Mutations: Each time this mutation is taken, the evolutionist must apply it to a different natural weapon.

Positon Touch [Supernatural]
Prerequisite: Negaton Shield.
Ability Score: None
Benefit: The evolutionist gains a pool of positive energy equal his 2 x mutator level x his charisma modifier. He can spend any amount of these points as part of a touch attack, unarmed strike, or natural weapon attack to "deal" that many points of positive energy damage. The points may also be spent to fuel other mutations. The pool refills every 24 hours, at a time specified when the mutation is first taken.
Further Mutations: Each additional time this mutation is taken, the multiplier 2x multiplier on the positive energy pool increase by 2. If you have taken this mutation at least twice, you can heal conditions in addition to damage by using additional positive energy. You can cure 1 point of ability damage, remove the dazed, fatigued, or sickened condition from one individual by spending 5 additional points of positive energy. You can cure the exhausted, nauseated, poisoned, or stunned condition from one individual by spending 10 additional points of positive energy. You can cure a negative level, the blinded, deafened, or diseased condition from one individual by spending 20 additional points of positive energy. This mutation can be taken once per four levels.

[/SPOILER]

All I really couldn't convert was the create spawn mutation... which feels wrong for a deathless. also, I made positon touch into a lay on hands like... but with greater staying power. The dedicated eventually get touch of vitality grade healing. I made the damage mutations into devine damage, and reduced damage to compensate.

[Zireael]

The Deathlessionist seems really cool!

[Mithril Leaf]

The Deathless mutations seems objectively better than the Undead ones from a purely optimizational standpoint due to both not using direct positive energy (instead using divine, that's just wording to fix) and also negative energy immunity being super common in comparison to damage immunity from positive energy (which usually heals).

[inuyasha]

The Deathless mutations seems objectively better than the Undead ones from a purely optimizational standpoint due to both not using direct positive energy (instead using divine, that's just wording to fix) and also negative energy immunity being super common in comparison to damage immunity from positive energy (which usually heals).

I agree with this statement, it does seem a bit more powerful

[Tesla]

All I really couldn't convert was the create spawn mutation... which feels wrong for a deathless.

Perhaps an ability that allows you to convert a creature away from evil instead of killing them? That would be a logical good version of create spawn, but could be considered strange.

I also have to agree with Mithril Leaf, and inuyasha, that the damage is harder to prevent than negative energy damage. Personally I do not think it is as big a problem as the element damage techniques have a way of bypassing resistance. However it does make the powers of justice a better choice than the powers of evil from an optimization standpoint.

Even so I think you did a great job, and I particularly like Positon Touch.

[bobthe6th]

I did drop the damage to 1d4... and it is only +1/2 ML. I could almost see droping it to +1/3 ML damage, but that seems low.

As far as straight power, it lacks the massive debuffs that undead has. Ability damage and energy drain are pretty nasty. It is good for touch of vitality... but that is just healing. I figured making them healing focused fit the flavor.

[Mithril Leaf]

I did drop the damage to 1d4... and it is only +1/2 ML. I could almost see droping it to +1/3 ML damage, but that seems low.

As far as straight power, it lacks the massive debuffs that undead has. Ability damage and energy drain are pretty nasty. It is good for touch of vitality... but that is just healing. I figured making them healing focused fit the flavor.

Only for Smite. Four levels of positron blast has you doing a full attack routine with each attack replaced by a 1/2 ML d8 of nearly irresistible damage.

[bobthe6th]

Only for Smite. Four levels of positron blast has you doing a full attack routine with each attack replaced by a 1/2 ML d8 of nearly irresistible damage.

I lowered it for both, I just left the higher cap. By level 12, after investing a feat and a mutation tax(shield), it can hit that sort of damage. I guess the cap could be dropped to d6, but that feels very low.

[inuyasha]

this may sound weird...but could someone do a slenderman build with this class?

[DiGiacomon]

Just read up on Living Creation. Love it for the build I am planning on. The small addition of it to living fortress does not specify how many may be in the grove. I believe it would be just up to your normal limit or that times two.

Curious to see if that was on purpose or not.

[Mithril Leaf]

I lowered it for both, I just left the higher cap. By level 12, after investing a feat and a mutation tax(shield), it can hit that sort of damage. I guess the cap could be dropped to d6, but that feels very low.

Oh, I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but rather that 3 or 4 attacks at 6d8 of irresistible damage is many times better than 3 or 4 attacks at 6d8 of easily resistible damage.

[Draken]

I must say I also question the wisdom of divine damage.


this may sound weird...but could someone do a slenderman build with this class?

Should be workable as early as an 8th level build, probably a rogue-alike including dimension door, ethereal step, natural invisibility and four tentacles. That is a grand total of five out of the 34 (minimum) mutations the character will have avaiable.

Other potential mutations could be Abduct (Outsider list), Frightful Presence, Damage Reduction (or greater damage reduction in elemental), Fast Healing and Fragrance (Plant, reworked as unsettling presence instead of narcotic scent).

Build rounder mutations would be ability score increases (Str, Dex), Natural Armor, basic benefits (BAB, skills, saves) and possibly some skill bonus mutations.

Teratomorphisms would be: I - open. II - Size Increase. III - Perhaps regeneration.

All in all a few proper feats would make it a great area control/debuffer/tank.


Just read up on Living Creation. Love it for the build I am planning on. The small addition of it to living fortress does not specify how many may be in the grove. I believe it would be just up to your normal limit or that times two.

Curious to see if that was on purpose or not.

As it stands, it is mostly limited to the area of the Grove. Also the fact that animated objects aren't that impressive and actually much easier to destroy than their inanimate counterparts.

[Mithril Leaf]

Speaking of minimum, are there any good ways left of gaining additional mutation? A consumable might be in order (my calculations places a single mutation at a cost of about 10 grand).

[Tesla]

Speaking of minimum, are there any good ways left of gaining additional mutation? A consumable might be in order (my calculations places a single mutation at a cost of about 10 grand).

I had the template in mind a while back, but the class came to mind relatively recently. Perhaps they can be of some use to you.

Also is the Epic Evolutionist supposed to get less mutations per level than the other Evolutionist classes?

Supreme Evolutionist
'If you are a king among men, then I am a god among kings.' A Supreme Evolutionist to an Evolutionist

The average Evolutionist is a person that seeks to become something better, but there is no such thing as an average Supreme Evolutionist. Supreme Evolutionists are the ones that stand out amongst the gifted, and display potential unmatched by their unwashed brethren.

Entry Requirements
Feats: Any mutator feat
Skills: 8 ranks in three of the following skills, Knowledge (Arcana, Dungeoneering, Local, Nature, Psionics, Religion, or The Planes)

HD: d8
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+0|Mutations, Superior Mutations (+1)

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+0|Mutations

3rd|
+1|
+1|
+1|
+1|Mutations, Superior Mutations (+2)

4th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+1|Mutations

5th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+1|Mutations, Superior Mutations (+3)

6th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+2|Mutations

7th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+2|Mutations, Superior Mutations (+4)

8th|
+4|
+2|
+2|
+2|Mutations

9th|
+4|
+3|
+3|
+3|Mutations, Superior Mutations (+5)

10th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+3|Mutations, Supreme Adaptability
[/table]
Class Skills (2 + Int Modifier): The Supreme Evolutionist can choose the class skills of any one of their base classes to be their class skills for this class, this choice cannot be changed.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Supreme Evolutionists gain no new proficiencies with weapons or armor.

Mutations: The Supreme Evolutionist gains five mutations every odd level, and six mutations every even level. Whenever the Supreme Evolutionist gains a level, they may choose to lose up to two mutations that they have to gain an equal number of different mutations, they cannot choose to lose a mutation that would cause them to no longer qualify for another mutation, feat or prestige class.

Superior Mutations: The Supreme Evolutionist may treat their mutator level as one higher for the purpose of mutation limits. This ability increases at third level, and every two levels thereafter.

Supreme Adaptability: Beginning at tenth level the Supreme Evolutionist counts as having Mutant Ascendancy and Mutant Perfection for the purposes of qualifying for prestige classes and other character options.

Mutagenic

"Mutagenic" is a template that can be added to any living, corporeal creature with an intelligence score greater than 3 (referred to hereafter as the base creature).

Special Qualities: Mutagenic creatures gain one mutation per level. A Mutagenic creature treats all hit dice as half a mutator level unless the hit dice would count as a full mutator level. They have a minimum mutator level of one.

Level Adjustment: Same as base creature +2.

[Draken]

I had the template in mind a while back, but the class came to mind relatively recently. Perhaps they can be of some use to you.

Also is the Epic Evolutionist supposed to get less mutations per level than the other Evolutionist classes?

Supreme Evolutionist
'If you are a king among men, then I am a god among kings.' A Supreme Evolutionist to an Evolutionist

The average Evolutionist is a person that seeks to become something better, but there is no such thing as an average Supreme Evolutionist. Supreme Evolutionists are the ones that stand out amongst the gifted, and display potential unmatched by their unwashed brethren.

Entry Requirements
Feats: Any mutator feat
Skills: 8 ranks in three of the following skills, Knowledge (Arcana, Dungeoneering, Local, Nature, Psionics, Religion, or The Planes)

HD: d8
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+0|Mutations, Superior Mutations (+1)

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+0|Mutations

3rd|
+1|
+1|
+1|
+1|Mutations, Superior Mutations (+2)

4th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+1|Mutations

5th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+1|Mutations, Superior Mutations (+3)

6th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+2|Mutations

7th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+2|Mutations, Superior Mutations (+4)

8th|
+4|
+2|
+2|
+2|Mutations

9th|
+4|
+3|
+3|
+3|Mutations, Superior Mutations (+5)

10th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+3|Mutations, Supreme Adaptability
[/table]
Class Skills (2 + Int Modifier): The Supreme Evolutionist can choose the class skills of any one of their base classes to be their class skills for this class, this choice cannot be changed.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Supreme Evolutionists gain no new proficiencies with weapons or armor.

Mutations: The Supreme Evolutionist gains five mutations every odd level, and six mutations every even level. Whenever the Supreme Evolutionist gains a level, they may choose to lose up to two mutations that they have to gain an equal number of different mutations, they cannot choose to lose a mutation that would cause them to no longer qualify for another mutation, feat or prestige class.

Superior Mutations: The Supreme Evolutionist may treat their mutator level as one higher for the purpose of mutation limits. This ability increases at third level, and every two levels thereafter.

Supreme Adaptability: Beginning at tenth level the Supreme Evolutionist counts as having Mutant Ascendancy and Mutant Perfection for the purposes of qualifying for prestige classes and other character options.

Mutagenic

"Mutagenic" is a template that can be added to any living, corporeal creature with an intelligence score greater than 3 (referred to hereafter as the base creature).

Special Qualities: Mutagenic creatures gain one mutation per level. A Mutagenic creature treats all hit dice as half a mutator level unless the hit dice would count as a full mutator level. They have a minimum mutator level of one.

Level Adjustment: Same as base creature +2.

Supreme Adaptability doesn't really do anything.

[EdroGrimshell]

I think I just got an idea for another mutator class, drawing inspiration from Lord Gareth's Harrowed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188148), Boomwolf's Netherhost (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205919), and Soulblazer87's Demonblooded Warrior (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169645).

The idea is actually quite similar to the harrowed, a character with a beast trapped within them that mutates them and grants them there power, however, to access said power, they need to forge "links" to their beast within. With no links, they're essentially commoners with a better hit die and proficiencies. Each Link gives them a boost in power, but also gives them a higher chance of falling under their beast's influence, with a certain number of "Safe" Links that they could access without falling under its influence.

I think it'd be an interesting option for a mutator that's not the standard. What do you think Draken?

[Tesla]

Supreme Adaptability doesn't really do anything.

I do not know where I got the idea that more classes had Ascendancy as a prerequisite. So that ability is less valuable than intended, but I admit that I am not sure how to shore it up without causing issues with the fact that each level of the class is rather valuable. Any thoughts on the class as a whole, or the following possible fix would be appreciated.

Supreme Adaptability: Beginning at tenth level the Supreme Evolutionist counts as having Mutant Ascendancy and Mutant Perfection for the purposes of qualifying for prestige classes and other character options. Additionally the Supreme Evolutionist's ability to alter their mutations increases even further. With one week of dedicated work the Supreme Evolutionist may lose any one mutation they have to gain a different one, they cannot choose to lose a mutation that would cause them to no longer qualify for another mutation, feat or prestige class.


I think I just got an idea for another mutator class

I think the idea is an interesting one, as a powerful evil side can be fun. And because I have a character concept using a particular adaptation of another class I feel the need to quote the following.


An alternate fluff could be that the character is actually merged with some aberrant entity for some reason. In this case the class would involve them merging further or gaining more control over the entity. If the entity is actually largely in another location (such as the Far Realms, with the part in the character just some of it leaking through), then it might represent the entity getting more of itself into the character.

I personally believe that there will never be enough homebrew in this particular area.

[Draken]

I think I just got an idea for another mutator class, drawing inspiration from Lord Gareth's Harrowed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188148), Boomwolf's Netherhost (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205919), and Soulblazer87's Demonblooded Warrior (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169645).

The idea is actually quite similar to the harrowed, a character with a beast trapped within them that mutates them and grants them there power, however, to access said power, they need to forge "links" to their beast within. With no links, they're essentially commoners with a better hit die and proficiencies. Each Link gives them a boost in power, but also gives them a higher chance of falling under their beast's influence, with a certain number of "Safe" Links that they could access without falling under its influence.

I think it'd be an interesting option for a mutator that's not the standard. What do you think Draken?

I am wondering how you could make this class not look too much like a harrowed or netherbeast who merely exchanged his class features (other than the blessed with suck/cursed with awesome aspect) for a mutation mechanism.

As an example of this issue. I spent a good deal of time trying to think of a way to make a dual progression class for Harrowed/Evolutionist, but gave up because every idea felt kinda like trying to make a dual progression for a Bard/Beguiler (aka: two classes that do essentially the same thing).

Edit: Tesla, when is that post by Owrtho from and why are you answering it here? :smalltongue:

[EdroGrimshell]

I am wondering how you could make this class not look too much like a harrowed or netherbeast who merely exchanged his class features (other than the blessed with suck/cursed with awesome aspect) for a mutation mechanism.

As an example of this issue. I spent a good deal of time trying to think of a way to make a dual progression class for Harrowed/Evolutionist, but gave up because every idea felt kinda like trying to make a dual progression for a Bard/Beguiler (aka: two classes that do essentially the same thing).

The idea I had is the beast is MUCH stronger than in the Harrowed, Demonblooded Warrior, or Netherhost and has "Sets" of abilities. These can be accessed with the Links I mentioned. The links/sets are what would make the class unique. They could exchange their links to fill different rolls, like the Evolutionist Anomaly only more variable and with a chance of losing control. It'd also have base features other than the Sets & Links based on the beast itself. It'd end up looking more like a Binder than a mutator by the end, but would have some very different options from a normal binder.

I'm probably going to take a stab at it in the next few weeks

[Avalon®]

Oh, I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but rather that 3 or 4 attacks at 6d8 of irresistible damage is many times better than 3 or 4 attacks at 6d8 of easily resistible damage.

@Mithril Leaf: I've got a question regarding the Weaponthane Ascendant. What size are the portals made by the Transdimensional Rift teratomorph? Are they the same size as the Ascendant?

[Mithril Leaf]

@Mithril Leaf: I've got a question regarding the Weaponthane Ascendant. What size are the portals made by the Transdimensional Rift teratomorph? Are they the same size as the Ascendant?

Oh yeah, I meant to address that. Give me a sec.

Edit: There we go.

[Mithril Leaf]

I gave the Weaponthane ascendant a new ability at third level. Another one where you trade attack for a bonus. It's mainly so that you can't be truly shut down in the more common circumstances. And also swapped saves to strength. Tell me if it's too good.

[Gideon Falcon]

I have a few ideas for Periodic Element options for the Elemental Taratamorphisms.
Sand: associated with fire damage and Earth.
Heart of the Elements (Sand):
Your melee and ranged attacks with natural weapons deal one point of dessiccation damage (Sandstorm) for every taratamorphism you have. In addition, you are considered to have the Earth subtype for all purposes except for other taratamorphisms.

Control Elements (Sand): Control Sand, Haboob, Transmute Sand to Stone (Sandstorm)

Archon: Whenever you deal fire damage, the opponent must make a fortitude save or be dehydrated (fatigued) for one round.

Cataclysm Heart: You may raise a sandstorm around you at up to Hurricane intensity out to 10 feet, with lesser increments in 30 foot bands until the wind equalizes with the current area. You continually replenish the sand in the wind, and in an area without sand, you only leave 1d4 inches of sand covering.

I'll post more later on, but I'm open to suggestions.

[Milo v3]

I have a few ideas for Periodic Element options for the Elemental Taratamorphisms.
Sand: associated with fire damage and Earth.
Heart of the Elements (Sand):
Your melee and ranged attacks with natural weapons deal one point of dessiccation damage (Sandstorm) for every taratamorphism you have. In addition, you are considered to have the Earth subtype for all purposes except for other taratamorphisms.

Control Elements (Sand): Control Sand, Haboob, Transmute Sand to Stone (Sandstorm)

Archon: Whenever you deal fire damage, the opponent must make a fortitude save or be dehydrated (fatigued) for one round.

Cataclysm Heart: You may raise a sandstorm around you at up to Hurricane intensity out to 10 feet, with lesser increments in 30 foot bands until the wind equalizes with the current area. You continually replenish the sand in the wind, and in an area without sand, you only leave 1d4 inches of sand covering.

I'll post more later on, but I'm open to suggestions.

Well we have the Paraelementals:
Ice
Magma
Ooze
Smoke

Then the quasielementals:
Ash
Dust
Lightning
Mineral
Radiance
Salt
Steam
Vacuum

Then there is also the other already existing full elementals:
Shadow
Storm
Taint
Ruin
Ectoplasm

Also, in Manual of the planes it mentions Wood as an element, so their's that too.

[inuyasha]

Well we have the Paraelementals:
Ice
Magma
Ooze
Smoke

Then the quasielementals:
Ash
Dust
Lightning
Mineral
Radiance
Salt
Steam
Vacuum

Then there is also the other already existing full elementals:
Shadow
Storm
Taint
Ruin
Ectoplasm

Also, in Manual of the planes it mentions Wood as an element, so their's that too.

and even though its technically third party ToH has time and psionic elementals, I like ToH (tome of horrors)

[Draken]

Well we have the Paraelementals:
Ice
Magma
Ooze
Smoke

Then the quasielementals:
Ash
Dust
Lightning
Mineral
Radiance
Salt
Steam
Vacuum

Then there is also the other already existing full elementals:
Shadow
Storm
Taint
Ruin
Ectoplasm

Also, in Manual of the planes it mentions Wood as an element, so their's that too.

Strictly speaking, only the third group in that list requires fully new teratomorph sequences. Paraelementals are by definition a combination of the four basic ones and the quasimentals would theoretically require teratomorph sequences keyed to Negative and Positive energy.

[Gideon Falcon]

Even so, the presented Taratamorphisms don't grant sufficiently thematic abilities for some of the Paraelements.

Ice:
Heart of Winter: Your melee and ranged attacks with natural weapons deal 1d4 points of cold damage for every taratamorphism you possess. In addition, you gain the Cold subtype, but do not gain immunity to cold or vulnerability to fire, and you gain Cold Endurance (Frostburn) as a bonus feat.

Control Elements (Ice): I don't currently have access to the Spell Compendium, which probably has more appropriate spells than I can conjure up at the moment.

Archon: As Water.

Cataclysm Heart: Ice Age: You may lower the temperature within 100 feet of you by up to 20 degrees per mutator level. This imposes the dangers of cold in the area, and coats all solid surfaces (including, of course, any liquids frozen by the drop in temerature) in a slick layer of ice, mimicking the effects of a Grease spell. The DC for the Grease effect is constitution based.

Slime:

Heart of Slime: Your melee and ranged attacks with natural weapons deal an additional 1d4 points of acid damage for every taratamorphism you possess. In addition, you are considered to have the Earth subtype for all purposes other than additional taratamorphisms, and you gain the Endurance feat as a bonus feat. Suggestions for alternate bonus feats are welcome.

Control Elements suggestions: Ooze puppet is a likely candidate.

Archon: as Earth.

Cataclysm Heart: Difficult. Possibly combine difficult terrain for a radius around the Evolutionist which deals acid damage, or perhaps some sort of acid rain.

Storm:
Heart of the Storm: Your melee and ranged attacks with natural weapons deal an additional 1d4 electricity damage for every taratamorphism you have. In addition, you are considered to have the Air subtype for all purposes except other taratamorphisms.


Control Elements suggestions: Control Air or Control Winds, Sleet Storm, Control Weather (Storms only)

Archon: Whenever you deal electricity damage, the victims are entangled for one round as the currents interfere with their muscular controls.

Cataclysm Heart: You are constantly under the benefits of a Call Lightning Storm spell, except you may call one bolt for every five Mutator levels, and doing so is a free action (but only once per round). In addition, Heavy rain surrounds you out to 50 feet.

Mist: (Cold associated)
Heart of Mist: You gain the Air subtype, save for the purposes of other taratamorphisms, but you do not gain a flight speed. You gain a +1 bonus per taratamorphism you have on attack and damage rolls against opponents who cannot clearly see you (suffer miss chances from concealment against you). In addition, you gain Blind-Fight as a bonus feat.

Archon: As Water.

Cataclysm Heart: You are surrounded by the effects of an Obscuring Mist spell out to 60 feet. Within 40 feet, this instead becomes a Fog Cloud effect. At 20 feet, it thickens further to a Solid Fog effect, and within 10 feet the fog deals 4d6 damage per round to all enemies within. You ignore all these effects, being able to see and move freely and are not subject to the cold damage.

Smoke: Not many changes, except you may replace the Fire Archon ability with the effect of nauseating creatures damaged by your fire effects.

[Milo v3]

I think that slime should be changed to ooze and you should remove the sections about the subtypes not applying to terotomorphisms.

[AmberVael]

I have a suggestion- or at least a thought.

I like Arcane Capacity and Psychic Capacity, but both of them seem like they'd be problematic on level up. They can become completely useless if you're using them to get at will abilities and then they gain an extra use- you'll essentially have wasted a mutation, in that case. I do know you can switch out a mutation when you level up, but it seems like a kind of mutation that you could well take numerous times, and so the normal one mutation swapped out per level might not be enough.

Suffice to say, I think as soon as one of these feats naturally becomes redundant through level up, you should be able to replace them automatically. Perhaps there could be a clause for that?

[Draken]

I have a suggestion- or at least a thought.

I like Arcane Capacity and Psychic Capacity, but both of them seem like they'd be problematic on level up. They can become completely useless if you're using them to get at will abilities and then they gain an extra use- you'll essentially have wasted a mutation, in that case. I do know you can switch out a mutation when you level up, but it seems like a kind of mutation that you could well take numerous times, and so the normal one mutation swapped out per level might not be enough.

Suffice to say, I think as soon as one of these feats naturally becomes redundant through level up, you should be able to replace them automatically. Perhaps there could be a clause for that?

Arcane Capacity and Psychic Capacity have always demanded more build considerations than most others. Nonetheless, I had some changes aimed at them to adress an issue that someone else informed me, namely the issue of at-will 6th level powers/spell.

I actually considered adding that with the latest rewrite, but it felt excessive to deal with a very extreme case (that might have been dealt with as of the last rewrite, since the issue most likely arises out of multiple spell-likes that had their daily uses increased).

Well. Changes made.

Changelog

Arcane Capacity - Redesigned. Now has a lot of charisma prerequisites, but it is also less of a mutation hog.
Spell-like Abilities - Now has a charisma prerequisite. Per spell level. Can't be uglier than a sorcerer but use the same level of powers.

Psi-like Abilities - Now has an intelligence prerequisite. Per power level. Can't be dumber than a psion and still do their tricks.
Psychic Capacity - Redesigned, same crap as Arcane Capacity, but int based.

These changes are mainly aimed at making at-will 5th and 6th spell-likes/psi-likes harder to get. Forcing the demand of some very high mental ability scores (36-38 to be precise).

I mean, it is not impossible, sure, but it is harder than it was before.

[Omnicrat]

Draken, I think there may have been ONE change log in which you did not break my things. Why, Draken? Why do you hate my builds? :smallfrown:

[Draken]

Draken, I think there may have been ONE change log in which you did not break my things. Why, Draken? Why do you hate my builds? :smallfrown:

Can't have a balanced breakfast without breaking some eggs man.

Strictly speaking I also made two mutations that one of my current characters has taken illegal.

[chaos_redefined]

Just to check, does this mean a character with 12 cha can apply it as many times as he likes to a first level spell, or does he need to get a 20 cha to apply it a second time, 28 for a third time, etc...

[Draken]

Just to check, does this mean a character with 12 cha can apply it as many times as he likes to a first level spell, or does he need to get a 20 cha to apply it a second time, 28 for a third time, etc...

The second way. Higher ability scores are needed to apply the mutation repeatedly to a specific level of spells/powers.

[Mithril Leaf]

Once per four levels seems a bit extreme. You've already got a massive stat requirement, and at best characters will only be able to get a single sixth level spell at will. It's now far more effective to simply diversify and take 20 of each type, so that there's an answer to every problem in a single day. Having abilities at will isn't so much a balance issue as a plot/campaign world issue which is a lot less work if you've already accounted for the nature and prevalence of such abilities, which you should have if you're running any game with spellcasters.

[Draken]

Once per four levels seems a bit extreme. You've already got a massive stat requirement, and at best characters will only be able to get a single sixth level spell at will. It's now far more effective to simply diversify and take 20 of each type, so that there's an answer to every problem in a single day. Having abilities at will isn't so much a balance issue as a plot/campaign world issue which is a lot less work if you've already accounted for the nature and prevalence of such abilities, which you should have if you're running any game with spellcasters.

:smallconfused:

I don't follow the initial argument. The old system made it easier to grab one or two at-will sixth levels, but the new way makes it harsher to get there, but you can get all the at-wills you want if you do (well, within the set limits anyway).

The 1/4 limit is in place because, strictly speaking, under the new system you only need to get the mutation nine times to have evertything be at-will. And 1/3 would give seven potential acquisitions already.

[Milo v3]

:smallconfused:

I don't follow the initial argument. The old system made it easier to grab one or two at-will sixth levels, but the new way makes it harsher to get there, but you can get all the at-wills you want if you do (well, within the set limits anyway).

The 1/4 limit is in place because, strictly speaking, under the new system you only need to get the mutation nine times to have evertything be at-will. And 1/3 would give seven potential acquisitions already.

I believe he thinks you need to get it for each spell, rather than spell level.

[AmberVael]

I understand why you would want to put on the 1/4 limit, but I think it makes things awkward. If I want six specific powers at will, but they're from different levels, then I can't do that until epic level. Kinda weird, don't you think?
Besides that, I think the potential stat requirements now are pretty crazily high. You are definitely not going to meet those most of the time. I would tone that down a little.

An rough suggestion from me (haven't thought about this thoroughly) might be to keep the Capacity mutation based on a single power, but perhaps give it a scaling number of extra uses, whether on level or on the appropriate ability score.

I also want to voice an objection to make psi-likes based on Intelligence. A few observations on that point:
1) Psi-like abilities, like spell-like abilities, are based on Charisma by default.
2) Evolutionist has basically no other decent use for Intelligence. Charisma, on the other hand, sees use in numerous places- this makes psi-likes much less appealing than spell-likes, and more inclined towards MAD.
3) If you're looking to dissuade people from taking spell-likes and psi-likes, the need to spend mutations on both caster and manifester level is probably discouragement enough.

Also, on a random note, Disrupt Psionics is strictly inferior to Disrupt Magic. It's a small thing, but the Dispel Psionics power can't be used as a counterspell. Normally Dispel Psionics has the advantage of scaling beyond Dispel Magic, but you've removed that in your system. Perhaps you could add back in some minor advantage for the psionic version somehow?

[Mithril Leaf]

I believe he thinks you need to get it for each spell, rather than spell level.

This was indeed my mistake.

[AmberVael]

Something odd I've noticed- under the Divine Blessing mutation, from the Outsider mutations, you list status (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/status.htm) as a possible spell. Divine Blessing lets you have a constant, personal spell effect from the list.

While I can theoretically think of some benefit from having Status as a personal spell, generally it's going to be exceptionally redundant, and the spell is definitely designed to be used on others. Was the intention to allow you to touch anyone and keep track of them via Status? Because as is, all it allows you to do is keep track of yourself.

[Arkhaic]

Hey, shouldn't Vestigial Wings eventually grant something like Glide? It seems like it would be the natural transition between Vestigial Wings and a Fly speed.

[Draken]

Something odd I've noticed- under the Divine Blessing mutation, from the Outsider mutations, you list status (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/status.htm) as a possible spell. Divine Blessing lets you have a constant, personal spell effect from the list.

While I can theoretically think of some benefit from having Status as a personal spell, generally it's going to be exceptionally redundant, and the spell is definitely designed to be used on others. Was the intention to allow you to touch anyone and keep track of them via Status? Because as is, all it allows you to do is keep track of yourself.

Changed to Deathwatch. I honestly misread what Status does when I wrote that. Blah.


I understand why you would want to put on the 1/4 limit, but I think it makes things awkward. If I want six specific powers at will, but they're from different levels, then I can't do that until epic level. Kinda weird, don't you think?
Besides that, I think the potential stat requirements now are pretty crazily high. You are definitely not going to meet those most of the time. I would tone that down a little.

An rough suggestion from me (haven't thought about this thoroughly) might be to keep the Capacity mutation based on a single power, but perhaps give it a scaling number of extra uses, whether on level or on the appropriate ability score.

I also want to voice an objection to make psi-likes based on Intelligence. A few observations on that point:
1) Psi-like abilities, like spell-like abilities, are based on Charisma by default.
2) Evolutionist has basically no other decent use for Intelligence. Charisma, on the other hand, sees use in numerous places- this makes psi-likes much less appealing than spell-likes, and more inclined towards MAD.
3) If you're looking to dissuade people from taking spell-likes and psi-likes, the need to spend mutations on both caster and manifester level is probably discouragement enough.

Also, on a random note, Disrupt Psionics is strictly inferior to Disrupt Magic. It's a small thing, but the Dispel Psionics power can't be used as a counterspell. Normally Dispel Psionics has the advantage of scaling beyond Dispel Magic, but you've removed that in your system. Perhaps you could add back in some minor advantage for the psionic version somehow?

I am giving some thought to your idea, and I am inclined to take it up, truth be told.

Psi-likes were made to be int-based to create a viable intelligence based path for evolutionists (only wisdom was left empty, mostly). I also plan to add some more intelligence-based mutations, with a certain focus on party utility, but that will take awhile.

I have some expansions for the two Dispells being readied.


Hey, shouldn't Vestigial Wings eventually grant something like Glide? It seems like it would be the natural transition between Vestigial Wings and a Fly speed.

Vestigial Wings is a straggler that I didn't know how to rewrite when I changed Aquatic Adaptation and Adherent Hands around. It will receive a pass on the next big patch, hopefully.

[AmberVael]

Psi-likes were made to be int-based to create a viable intelligence based path for evolutionists (only wisdom was left empty, mostly). I also plan to add some more intelligence-based mutations, with a certain focus on party utility, but that will take awhile.
Perhaps in the interest of adding variability, you could allow people to choose whether to use Charisma or Intelligence (choosing it once when they first select a spell-like)? You might even do something like add in the ability to switch over to Wisdom if they gain the Outsider spell-likes.


On the subject of the Outsider spell-likes, the mutation name and the wording leaves it a little muddled on whether the mutation there is one you must take to upgrade spell-likes (in that, you take this one mutation and then you can get spell-likes using the normal mutation), or just the spell-like ability mutation that is broadened (in that, you don't have to take any new mutations, so long as you have access to the Outsider list you can take divine spell-likes). I think you're aiming for the latter of those two, but I'm not entirely sure.

I think for clarity you might simply call it a different mutation that works like the normal spell-like ability, shares caster level and such, but accesses the cleric list. Alternately, perhaps don't even list it as a separate mutation, but clearly call it out as a free addition to the spell-like list for outsiders.

[Draken]

Changelog
Just for the record, I decided against the int-or-cha thing.

Extraordinaire
New mutation - Trip: As the wolf ability.

Spell-like List
Arcane Capacity - modified to Vael's suggestion. Probably the final version now.
New mutation - Detonate Magic: Dispelled spells explode.

Psi-like List
New mutation - Combat Reading: Gain insight bonuses against enemies whose minds you can read.
New mutation - Disrupt Minds: Dispelled powers drive enemies crazy.
Psychic Capacity - modified to Vael's suggestion. Probably the final version now.
New mutation - Telepathic Guidance: Grant bonuses to your allies against enemies whose minds you can read.

Construct List
Spell-like abilities - simplified and clarified.

Outsider List
Spell-like abilities - simplified and clarified.

[Selinia]

Compared to many of the later Evolutionist PrCs, the Progenitor seems somewhat lackluster in retrospect. While definitely functional, it offers comparatively little to actually capture the feeling of mastering a horde of minions. While I don't feel the original need be stricken from the the records just yet (at least, not until Draken completes his own PrC hinging on leading a small pack of similar entities), I think it can be done significantly better. Hence the following - my attempt at making a balanced 'swarm' class that doesn't bog down play with enormous amounts of status-tracking and rolls. Criticism is, as always, welcome - the class employs some extreme abstractions in the name of ease of play, and I'd like to hear what anyone might think with regards to its execution.

The Progenitor v2
"They are my children. My legs and claws and ravenous maw. They are my swarm, and I am their god. So tremble, mortal, for I am not alone."
-Sarah, a Progenitor

Nearly all evolutionists seek perfection in some form. The regal fury of a dragon, the boundless might of a giant, or even the vast reserves of untapped power that lie in the humanoid form: the specifics of their quest vary, but not their goal. Some, though, go further.

Progenitors slow their climb towards personal perfection, turning their attention to the creation of a legacy of beings to carry their quest through the generations... or perhaps simply to gain an army of loyal servants. With a swarm of fanatical minions at her beck and call, a progenitor slowly draws closer to unlocking the secrets of forging life in her own image.

Prerequisites:
Skills: 13 ranks in the Knowledge skill relevant to your creature type (Religion for Undead, Local for Humanoids, etc)
Special: Must possess the Mutant Ascendancy class feature

HD: d8
{table=head]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Special
1 | +0 | +0 | +0 | +0 | Mutations, Beget Minions, Tyrant's Instinct
2 | +1 | +0 | +0 | +0 | Mutations, Evolved Progeny
3 | +1 | +1 | +1 | +1 | Mutations
4 | +2 | +1 | +1 | +1 | Mutations, Evolved Progeny
5 | +2 | +1 | +1 | +1 | Mutations, Rapid Spawning (30 minutes)
6 | +3 | +2 | +2 | +2 | Mutations, Evolved Progeny
7 | +3 | +2 | +2 | +2 | Mutations
8 | +4 | +2 | +2 | +2 | Mutations, Evolved Progeny
9 | +4 | +3 | +3 | +3 | Mutations
10 | +5 | +3 | +3 | +3 | Mutations, Evolved Progeny, Rapid Spawning (10 minutes), Promethean Perfection[/table]

Class Skills (2 + Int Modifier): The progenitor can chose the class skills of any one of her base classes to be her class skills for this class, this choice cannot be changed.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A progenitor gains no proficiency with any weapon or armor.

Mutations: The progenitor gains four mutations per level.

Beget Minons (Su): A progenitor toys in the realm of the gods, harnessing the terrible and awesome power to create life in their own image. Their creations are vastly inferior, true, but the same could be said of divinity. Depending on their creature type and chosen aesthetic, the progenitor may go about this in any number of ways – she may build an army of sentient machines from cast-off scraps, stitch together a living corpse, or lay a clutch of eggs that give rise to a ravenous swarm of young. At 1st level, the progenitor selects Constitution or Intelligence as the ability most closely keyed to her chosen method of propagation. This determines the key ability score for many of her minions’ abilities, and once made, this decision can never be reversed.

Whatever method she chooses, the process of spawning minions requires an hour of uninterrupted work, regardless of how many minions the progenitor wishes to spawn. The progenitor may have a number of minions at any given time equal to [4 + class level + Cha modifier]. If the progenitor creates minions over this limit, she must terminate existing minions (which need not be present) to make room for their fresher siblings. Some Evolved Progeny abilities allow the progenitor to spawn elite minions, which are often possess significantly more power or utility than their generic counterparts. A progenitor may have a number of elite minions under her command no greater than half her class level (to a minimum limit of one elite minion). Elite minions still count against the minion limit normally.

Minions are effectively mindless, incapable of following even rudimentary orders without direction from the progenitor. They possess no actions of their own, acting only in response to the progenitor’s own commands. Should a minion ever stray further than [100 * class level] feet from the progenitor, it immediately falls completely inert, and will decay into useless goop if it is not brought back within the progenitor’s zone of control within 24 hours. This radius is referred to as the progenitor’s zone of control. The progenitor cannot issue commands, use special abilities, or otherwise interact with minions outside her zone of control, but she possesses instinctive knowledge of the hit point totals and location (relative to her) of any minions within it. Minions never benefit from flanking, but they can flank with those the progenitor considers allies. If the progenitor dies or is destroyed, her minions collapse after one minute unless she is revived.

Basic Minions have the following statistics:
Hit Points: (3 + Con/Int modifier) * Class Level
Damage: 1 + Con/Int modifier
Saves: A minion’s Fortitude and Reflex saves equal those of the progenitor. It is immune to any effect requiring a Will save. Whenever multiple minions are exposed to the same effect, the group makes a single attempt at a saving throw, with the result dictating the outcome for all affected minions.
Armor Class: 13 + Con/Int modifier + Class Level
Speed: 30’ base land speed. If the progenitor possesses a fly, climb, or swim speed, her minions also possess a fly, climb, or swim speed equal to their base land speed.
Size: Small. Minions weigh anywhere from 25 to 50 lbs., at the progenitor’s discretion. Minions do not gain any bonuses or penalties based on their size category other than increased carrying capacity unless specifically noted.
Ability Scores: Minions do not have ability scores. For the purpose of carrying capacity, and other measurements of force, minions possess an effective Strength score of 13.

Simple Construct: A minion is immune to any effects other than hit point damage, and is immediately destroyed if it is reduced to 0 or negative HP.
Evasion: If a minion makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, it instead takes no damage.
Senses: Though normally unable to react independently to external stimuli, all minions possess mundane and extraordinary senses identical to those of the progenitor herself. Minions never possess supernatural senses.

Tyrant’s Instinct (Su): Even at 1st level, a progenitor possesses an instinctual knowledge of how to command her minions in a rudimentary fashion. Whenever the progenitor uses an action to move, (including special movement such as charging or running, but not action-free movement such as a five-foot-step) or uses a move action explicitly to trigger this ability, she may move each of her minions up to their speed. Movement by minions provokes attacks of opportunity as normal. Minions cannot take five-foot-steps.

With a standard action, the progenitor can command her minions to attack her foes. Each of her minions makes a single attack against a viable target within its reach. Rather than rolling for each individually, the progenitor makes a single attack roll, replacing any usual bonuses to attack with , comparing the result to the AC of each of her minions’ targets. A creature targeted by at least one minion suffers a penalty to its AC against this assault equal to the number of minions targeting it. If the attack roll is successful in overcoming this reduced AC, the targeted creature takes damage from each minion targeting it.
A progenitor does not need to possess line of sight, or even line of effect, to her minions in order to command them. However, as she does not ordinarily possess any sort of sensory feedback from them, blindly commanding minions is a prospect likely to result in embarrassment if not carefully orchestrated.

Evolved Progeny: As the progenitor grows in power, she continues to refine and evolve the teeming hordes of her minions. While the petty creatures she creates are a far cry from the elegance and power of a true evolutionist, they make fitting servants to their master nonetheless. All such abilities are supernatural in nature. At each even-numbered level, the progenitor gains one of the following abilities:

Burly Spawn: A progenitor’s minions serve the invaluable function of acting as a buffer between their master and the various flavors of unpleasantness the world may throw at her. Minions are, however, extremely flimsy creatures, and a progenitor may understandably want for a more suitably resilient protector. Whenever the progenitor spawns minions, she may choose to spawn some or all of them as burly minions. Burly minions possess a hit point total of ([8 + Con/Int] * Class Level), are Medium rather than Small, possess an effective strength score of 15, and benefit from Fast Healing 10. This fast healing is suppressed for one minute upon taking damage from any source. Additionally, whenever a creature or minion (other than another burly minion) adjacent to a burly minion is struck by an attack, the progenitor can command the burly minion to redirect that attack onto itself as a free action. A redirected attack automatically hits the burly minion, otherwise it continues to resolve normally. Otherwise, a burly minion possesses identical statistics and functionality to a basic minion. A burly minion is an elite minion.

Devious Spawn: Though sheer numbers have their merits, a clever progenitor knows that sometimes a well-placed dagger can do more damage than the avalanche surrounding it. Whenever the progenitor spawns minions, she may choose to spawn some or all of them as sneaky minions. Sneaky minions possess a damage of (1 + Con/Int modifier + number of minions adjacent to target). Additionally, sneaky minions are invisible whenever they are not moving - this may be pierced with See Invisibility and similar effects as usual. If a sneaky minion's invisibility is in some way negated, it restores itself at the beginning of the progenitor's next turn. Otherwise, a sneaky minion possesses identical statistics and functionality to a basic minion. A sneaky minion is an elite minion.

Drudge Spawn: Menial labor is beneath the progenitor, and regardless, many sets of hands (or claws, or pincers, or tentacles, or hooves…) can accomplish tasks with far greater efficiency than one alone could hope to match. Whenever the progenitor spawns minions, she may choose to spawn some or all of them as laborer minions. Laborer minions cannot attack, and possess a hit point total of (3 * Class Level). Each laborer minion counts as only one-fourth of a minion for the purposes of determining a progenitor’s minion limit. Laborer minions can be instructed to perform simple repetitive tasks (such as hacking stone from a quarry, hauling garbage from a heap into a pit of acid, or assembling clocks from piles of ready-made components) on a loop, which they will continue to carry out until they are destroyed, given new orders, or the progenitor that created them is killed. Unlike most minions, laborer minions operating on standing orders possess a full compliment of actions each round with which to carry out their tasks. Additionally, so long as the progenitor is alive (or animate, in the case of construct or undead progenitors) laborer minions are not dependent upon a progenitor’s zone of control to remain active if they are operating on standing orders, and are in no danger of collapsing if they are brought outside it for extended periods of time. Issuing basic programming to laborer minions is a move action. Laborer minions perform their assigned tasks as if they possessed a bonus in the relevant Craft or Profession skill equal to twice the progenitor’s class level. Otherwise, a laborer minion possesses identical statistics and functionality to a basic minion.

Internal Crucible: The progenitor must possess the swallow whole extraordinary ability to select this ability. Whenever a nonminion creature dies within the progenitor’s gizzard, she may dissolve its body as a free action, using the raw materials to instantly form a minion in its place. Additionally, the progenitor’s minions become immune to the damage dealt by her swallow whole ability, and the progenitor gains the ability expel an individual creature (minion or not) from her gizzard as a swift action. For one minute after their creation, minions spawned through this ability do not count against the minion limit.

Masterful Spawn: As useful as minions can be, managing their brainless bodies is a near-constant chore without some form of assistance. Whenever the progenitor spawns minions, she may choose to spawn some or all of them as master minions. Master minions can be given simple, programmed instructions, much like a golem or mindless undead, and do not fall inactive or risk degeneration if positioned outside the progenitor’s zone of influence. Additionally, any number of minions can be assigned to a master minion’s ‘control group’, allowing the group to receive instructions as a whole. U A master minion possesses its own zone of control with a radius of 100’, within which minions assigned to it do not fall inert even if they are outside of the progenitor’s own zone of control, and may carry out programmed orders regardless of the progenitor’s presence or absence. Issuing commands to a master minion, which may include the addition or removal of other minions to its control group, is a move action. Unlike most minions, master minions operating on standing orders possess a full compliment of actions each round with which to carry out their tasks. Master Minions are capable of using these actions to make use of the abilities granted by Tyrant's Instinct to command in their control group exactly as the progenitor can (including use of the progenitor's BAB and Charisma modifier to determine the attack bonus of a swarm attack). Otherwise, a master minion possesses identical statistics and functionality to a basic minion. A master minion is an elite minion.

[B]Sidebar: Master Minions and Command
Master minions are arguably the most complicated entities a progenitor is capable of producing, but they are still fairly simple creatures. The primary difference lies in the fact that a master minion can actually take actions of their own (in contrast to other minions, which much receive direct commands to take any sort of action), so long as they are ordered to do so by the progenitor - in all respects, treat them just like any other mindless creature, such as a golem or a skeleton. Given a set of instructions, they can act independent of the Progenitor's actions, and even channel her Tyrant's Instinct abilities to command her minions as an automated proxy. While a programmed drone will never match a progenitor in tactical prowess, turning command of her forces over to a master minion allows the progenitor herself to participate more actively in battle, or even deploy her minions in battles where she herself is completely absent.

Overlord’s Vigil: A progenitor’s minions are content to shamble along in their pathetic existences with no more than the smallest of mental shoves from their creator, but some masters wish to take a firmer hold on the strings of their puppets. As a full-round action, the progenitor may enter a meditative trance in which she establishes a powerful psychic link to her minions. While in such a trance, her personal zone of control’s radius triples and the progenitor may freely access the sensory input of any number of her minions. However, while in this trance, the progenitor’s physical body is helpless and inert, in a state mechanically equivalent to sleep. She may still take actions to command her minions, but must take another full-round action to rouse herself to consciousness. If the progenitor’s physical body takes damage while she occupies this trance, she immediately snaps back to consciousness and is dazed for 1d3 rounds.

Precise Spawn: Generally, minions are little more than disposable trash to be thrown into the meat grinder that is the front line of combat. At times, however, a prudent progenitor may deem the tactical advantage of a ranged attacker sufficient to merit a slightly thinner meatshield. Whenever the progenitor spawns minions, she may choose to spawn some or all of them as ranged minions. Ranged minions are incapable of attacking until they root themselves into a firing position. A progenitor may order ranged minions under her command to take up or abandon a firing position whenever she commands her minions to move – doing so prevents a ranged minion from taking any other movement from that action. Ranged minions may attack targets within a range of 100’, and their attacks provoke attacks of opportunity. Otherwise, a ranged minion possesses identical statistics and functionality to a basic minion.

Recycle Remains: A dead minion is little cause for concern in and of itself, but it would be unseemly for a superior being such as the progenitor to be left unattended simply because all her servants have been reduced to worm fodder. By minion corpses, the progenitor can spawn a number of minions up to half the number of consumed corpses in a process requiring only a standard action, rather than one hour process. Newly spawned minions may be placed in any empty square the progenitor can reach. A single move action allows the progenitor to consume any minion corpses within her reach, and the progenitor may internally store a number of minion corpses up to twice her class level at any given time. Minion corpses consumed by this ability are ruined beyond all hope of further salvage, and are useless for further applications of this ability - though the newly spawned minions may be harvested normally upon their own deaths.

Sovereign’s Vengeance: Rulers do not die easily, for when they fall, those they once ruled will rise to avenge them. If the progenitor would at any time be unable to take actions, due to being dazed, unconscious, or otherwise indisposed, she may still take a single move or standard action each round on her turn. This action may only be used to command minions, or trigger their special abilities. This ability does not function if the progenitor is dead or destroyed, but it functions with any other form of incapacitation, regardless of origin or duration.

Spawning Pits: The progenitor must possess the grove mutation to select this ability. The progenitor may enhance her grove with a bountiful supply of biomass (or other appropriate raw materials) capable of supporting additional minions. The progenitor’s grove gains a minion limit, independent from the progenitor’s own – it is capable of supporting a group of up to [Class level * 3] minions, which rely on the power of the grove to maintain their cohesion and will instantly collapse if forced to leave it. The progenitor may shift any number of minions from her own limit into the group sustained by the spawning pool as a free action, or vice versa, so long as she does not at any point exceed the limit of either. Minions supported by the grove still fall inert if they are not within the progenitor’s zone of control, but they will not decay with her absence. Additionally, so long as the progenitor is within the boundaries of her grove, the entirety of the grove is considered to be within her zone of control. Lastly, if the progenitor somehow possesses the Elemental Perfection class feature, the entirety of the demiplane created through that ability is considered to be within her zone of control, even when she is not present. It also provides the effects of a second spawning pool, identical in functionality to that of the progenitor’s worldly grove in all respects, save that minions bound to it are restricted to the progenitor’s demiplane, rather than her grove as a whole.

Supportive Spawn: Minions are fragile, clumsy creatures, and many progenitors would rather not be forced to deal with every scrape and bruise that may need patching up to keep the petty entities in fighting shape. Imbuing a minion with a small portion of her creative energy, however, provides a servant all too willing to take that particular burden off its master's hands. Whenever the progenitor spawns minions, she may choose to spawn some or all of them as support minions. Support minions cannot attack. Instead, whenever the progenitor orders her minions to attack, a support minion restores a number of hit points to each adjacent minion (including itself) equal to [Charisma modifier * 3]. Additionally, for every support minion in her zone of control, the progenitor gains a +1 bonus to her attack roll when making a swarm attack with Tyrant's Instinct. So long as there is at least one support minion in her zone of control, a progenitor's minions may attack incorporeal enemies without penalty. Otherwise, a support minion possesses identical statistics and functionality to a basic minion. A support minion is an elite minion.

Swift Spawn: Though raw power is well and good, the faster a progenitor’s minions, the sooner her foes will be overwhelmed by the sharp-toothed tide of her unquestionable superiority. Whenever the progenitor spawns minions, she may choose to spawn some or all of them as swift minions. Swift minions possess a hit point value of ([1 + Con/Int] * Class Level), an AC of (10 + Con/Int modififer + Class Level), and a base land speed of 40’. Additionally, swift minions do not provoke attacks of opportunity for any reason. Otherwise, a swift minion possesses identical statistics and functionality to a basic minion.

Transfuse Essence: Though individual minions are nothing more than meaningless husks before the majesty of the progenitor, there at times arise situations wherein she must intervene so that they might perish at a more appropriate time. As a move action, the progenitor may restore a single minion within her zone of control to its maximum hit point value. Once the progenitor has used this ability, she must wait three rounds to use it again.

Tyrant’s Feast: Whoever argues that deliciousness is not an evolutionary advantage is obviously not in a position to dictate the genetic makeup of their meals. As a move action, the progenitor may consume a minion within reach (whether literally, by sapping their life-force, or through some other means). This instantly destroys the minion. The progenitor then gains fast healing equal to one fifth of the devoured minion’s hit points at the time of its consumption, rounded up, or increases existing fast healing by this same amount. This fast healing lasts for one minute. The progenitor cannot use this ability again until the fast healing from the first application has worn off.

Unbreakable Hordes: A progenitor’s foes can be a wily lot at times, and it is inevitable that she will eventually face enemies clever enough to attempt and blast away entire swathes of minions at once – but when they try, it is likely they will find that exterminating the children of a progenitor is not so simple a thing. Whenever the progenitor's minions are exposed to an effect requiring a saving throw, they gain a bonus to their save attempt equal to the number of minions being targeted by the effect. Additionally, they never take damage from an effect against which they successfully save.

Volatile Spawn: The progenitor must possess energy resistance to select this ability. Whenever the progenitor spawns minions, she may choose to spawn some or all of them as volatile minions. Volatile minions take 10 additional damage whenever they take damage from any source. Additionally, they explode violently upon reduction to 0 or fewer hit points, dealing 1d6 damage per two mutator levels (to a minimum of 1d6 damage) to all non-minion creatures within a 10’ radius. This damage is of an energy type selected from among those to which a progenitor has resistance, and is chosen when a volatile minion is spawned. As a standard action, the progenitor may manually detonate a number of volatile minions up to their Charisma modifier (to a minimum of one minion) – minions detonated in this fashion are instantly destroyed. Otherwise, a volatile minion possesses identical statistics and functionality to a basic minion.

Wandering Spawn: The progenitor must possess the dimension door mutation to select this ability. When a true sovereign sets her eyes upon a goal, the road to its acquisition must surely be softened by the bowed backs of servants beneath her tread. As the purest and more glorious form of leader, it is only fitting that the progenitor takes this a step further. Whenever the progenitor spawns minions, she may choose to spawn some or all of them as traveler minions. Traveler minions are Large, rather than Small, and possess an effective strength score of 24 for the purpose of determining carrying capacity. Additionally, all of a progenitor’s traveler minions possess a powerful supernatural link – so long as at least one traveler minion is within the progenitor’s zone of control, all of them (even those who would otherwise be outside her zone of control) broadcast an extension of her zone of control with a 100’ radius. Further, as a move action, the progenitor can command a traveler minion to devour a willing creature adjacent to it (size is irrelevant with regards to this action), which is then instantly deposited adjacent to any traveler minion within the progenitor’s zone of control. If there are no spaces adjacent to a traveler minion with room for a creature to be deposited, that minion cannot be used as an exit point for this ability. Lastly, if the progenitor possesses a burrow speed, a traveler minion possesses a burrow speed equal to its base land speed. Otherwise, a traveler minion possesses identical statistics and functionality to a basic minion. A traveler minion is an elite minion.

Rapid Spawning (Su): As a progenitor grows in power, the creation of her minions slowly eases from a laborious task to a routine affair. Beginning at 5th level, the progenitor requires only 30 minutes to spawn a new batch of minions, rather than one hour. At 10th level, she requires only 10 minutes to spawn her minions.

Promethean Perfection (Su): At 10th level, the progenitor gains true mastery over creation. No longer are her progeny bound solely to her own essence – she is capable of creating truly independent life. When the progenitor spawns a new minion, she may choose to bring it to life as a fully self-sufficient entity. The resulting entity is not a minion, but rather a true creature, possessing sapience, independence, and a measure of power in reflection of the progenitor’s own.

When the progenitor creates a creature in this manner, she first assigns their ability score as she pleases, using the nonelite array. After this, she may grant the creature evolutionist levels, up to a maximum granted evolutionist level of the progenitor’s mutator level -10. The created creature gains the full benefit of these granted evolutionist levels, including mutations, teratomorphisms, and all other benefits of increasing HD. However, the created creature may only be assigned mutations and teratomorphisms already possessed by the progenitor (or the Extra Mutations teratomorphism), and may not surpass the progenitor in number of iterations possessed of any given mutation. The created creature’s type is identical to the progenitor’s type, but it does not possess the augmented subtype.

Creatures created by this ability do not count against the progenitor’s minion limit, and are not bound or compelled to serve her in any fashion. They are, however, generally reverent and grateful to their creator, and may almost always be considered Helpful to the progenitor unless she does something to dramatically alter their perceptions of her. After their creation, these progeny will carry on with their own lives, and individuals may even continue to gain class levels beyond those they were created with – they progress no differently from a creature that had gained a number of evolutionist levels ‘naturally’. Creatures created by this ability are viable, and may live, die, and reproduce as appropriate to their nature. The specifics of their life cycle are up to the progenitor – it is entirely possible to seed the beginnings of an entirely new species with this ability.

[Gideon Falcon]

I have an idea for a mutation, where you can apply the effects of Spell Absorption, Spell Reflection, and the like, to effects dispelled or counterspelled with Disrupt Magic. For example, you counterspell a fireball and reflect it back at the caster, or absorb the spell for hit points, or a Construct mutator could save the fireball for later use.

[ArkenBrony]

the new progenitors minions seem a bit weak, could you explain to me how this is a better choice then just 20 levels in evolutionist? im sure that you can, so please help me understand, i love the idea in this better than the other one.

[Raiki]

I go away from the 'brewing forums for awhile and this pops up! I honestly never thought I would see a more complex and option-intense homebrew than my Eidolon Binder, but in one fell swoop you've proven me horrifically wrong! I love it! I can't wait to get back to my real computer and start chewing it up and building horrible monstrosities. A damn fine brew, sir, and one that garners the Raiki seal of approval.

~R~

[Selinia]

A note - a few minor changes have been made to to Progenitor v2.


Programmable minons (master minions and laborer minions) are now explicitly called out as gaining action sets so they can actually do whatever it is you've programmed them to do.
Supportive Spawn added, giving progenitors the opportunity to create the potent minion support units that are Medic Minions.
Devious Spawn added, giving progenitors the opportunity to create elusive, dealy, but ultimately frail Sneaky Minions.
Rapid Spawning added at 5th and 10th levels, allowing high-level progenitors to replenish their swarms more regularly and easily.
Internal Crucible and Recycle Remains have both been buffed significantly, making in-combat minion spawning a much more viable tactic with the right build.



the new progenitors minions seem a bit weak, could you explain to me how this is a better choice then just 20 levels in evolutionist? im sure that you can, so please help me understand, i love the idea in this better than the other one.

The new progenitor's minions are weak - you're right about that. However, bear in mind, you have a lot of them. A positively tremendous number, in fact: an Evolutionist 10/Progenitor 1 who has just entered the class likely has 10 minions at least. Individually, almost worthless, but a progenitor is all about the collective.

A progenitor isn't a big meatstick powerhouse like you'd get just piling into natural weapons and the like, but it has a pretty potent function nonetheless. A progenitor's minions can swarm the battlefield, gum up enemy mobility, and attract attention and enemy firepower that might otherwise be directed at the actual party members. Minions are infinitely expendable (with certain evolved progeny abilities, you can even replace them mid-battle), and the more you can get enemies to waste time and resources on them, the more successful you are. Depending on what abilities you select, you can do this in a lot of different ways, from having minions outright tank hits for your party to making them dangerous enough that enemies will be harshly punished for ignoring them. You've even got strong utility options in Labor or Traveler minions, if you feel like taking those, or personal boosts like Tyrant's Feast if you prefer to lead from the front.

Progenitor probably isn't a good class to dip into, but I like to think there are quite a few potentially powerful options there, particularly if you go all the way with it.

[Zireael]

Good job with improving the progenitor!

[ArkenBrony]

how exactly would you make john carpenters "the thing" with this class, Digiacomon and I just watched the movie again and have been thinking a lot about it, what do you think about it?

[Draken]

how exactly would you make john carpenters "the thing" with this class, Digiacomon and I just watched the movie again and have been thinking a lot about it, what do you think about it?

With the tools currently in the thread you would have to be content with a natural weapons build of some kind, plus two instances of Change Shape and some more infiltration-oriented mutations.

I have an upcoming mutation list that will include a body-snatching mutation that would round the build out a bit better. Among other goodies.

Edit: But truth be said, that is an Ozodrin if I ever saw one in mainstream media.

[Mithril Leaf]

Man, if you've got a buddy who's a high evolutionist that grabbed some elemental lance type abilities, Progenitor minions can do some hefty damage. Power in teamwork and all that.

[Draken]

Man, if you've got a buddy who's a high evolutionist that grabbed some elemental lance type abilities, Progenitor minions can do some hefty damage. Power in teamwork and all that.

Simple Construct actually means that you can't buff the progenitor's minions in any fashion. Including the High Evolutionary's Touch.

[Mithril Leaf]

Simple Construct actually means that you can't buff the progenitor's minions in any fashion. Including the High Evolutionary's Touch.

Curses. You always have to ruin my brokenness Draken. Ever since I tried stacking Construct and Outsider armors.

[Draken]

Curses. You always have to ruin my brokenness Draken. Ever since I tried stacking Construct and Outsider armors.

There is always Swarmlord gestalt.

[Raiki]

There is always Swarmlord gestalt.

Or, if you're avoiding gestalt cheese, there's the simplicity of the Leadership feat. It doesn't help Progenitors much, but does does wonders for the High Evolutionary.

-R-

[Mithril Leaf]

No no, the High Evolutionist simply snags a massive pet from the undead raising ability that he took off the list he bought to get in.

[Rizban]

No no, the High Evolutionary simply snags a massive pet from the undead raising ability that he took off the list he bought to get in.

Fixed that for you. :smallwink:

[AmberVael]

Few things.


1) I can't for the life of me figure out what happens if you have a character that starts off with one of the unusual creature types with locked mutation lists, and then decides to go with one of the basic Ascendancy types. For example, if I start off with say, a Tiefling, but decide to give them the Aberration Ascendancy at level 10... do they lose access to the Outsider list? They don't have the Outsider type now, after all. But they had access to it before. What happens to Outsider mutations they had already taken? Do they lose them? Keep them, but just can't add to them?
By the rules as they are, you just lose access to the list. But that seems weird to me.

2) Why is Arcane Capacity limited in how many times you can take it? With your previous version, I understood well. But the limitation on this version seems pretty pointless. I mean, I can maybe see an argument for it (maybe), but at the very least I'd say the limit should be one per two levels, not one per three. 7 iterations is insulting.

3) Again, I'm going to argue to change the ability score for psi-likes, or at least to give some option for it. In addition to the arguments I had before, I would also like to point out that having psi-likes based on Int is a bit of a hit to the Aberration Ascendancy, forcing them to divide between Cha and Int to really get the full benefit of their power.

4) If anything, your explanation for the expanded spell-like list of Outsider and Construct is more confusing than before. Look, you really need to say something very clear, that leaves no doubt as to the intent. For example:
A) By taking this mutation, you can now select spell-likes from the X list when you take the Spell-Like Ability mutation.
B) This is not a new mutation, only an addendum to the mutation by this name, which can be found above. Evolutionists with access to the TYPE list who take that mutation can also select from the X list.

[Draken]

Few things.


1) I can't for the life of me figure out what happens if you have a character that starts off with one of the unusual creature types with locked mutation lists, and then decides to go with one of the basic Ascendancy types. For example, if I start off with say, a Tiefling, but decide to give them the Aberration Ascendancy at level 10... do they lose access to the Outsider list? They don't have the Outsider type now, after all. But they had access to it before. What happens to Outsider mutations they had already taken? Do they lose them? Keep them, but just can't add to them?
By the rules as they are, you just lose access to the list. But that seems weird to me.

Mutant Ascendancy (Ex): At 10th level, the evolutionist becomes something… Different from whatever he used to be. The evolutionist may choose to change his creature type to Aberration, Dragon, Fey, Giant, Magical Beast or Monstrous Humanoid. He may chose to remain a humanoid if he is one, but most other creatures agree that humanoids are a step down in the evolutionary ladder. The evolutionist gains the augmented subtype pertaining to his old type.


Augmented Subtype

A creature receives this subtype whenever something happens to change its original type. Some creatures (those with an inherited template) are born with this subtype; others acquire it when they take on an acquired template. The augmented subtype is always paired with the creature’s original type. A creature with the augmented subtype usually has the traits of its current type, but the features of its original type.

The augmented subtype allows you to retain access to your special mutation lists.


2) Why is Arcane Capacity limited in how many times you can take it? With your previous version, I understood well. But the limitation on this version seems pretty pointless. I mean, I can maybe see an argument for it (maybe), but at the very least I'd say the limit should be one per two levels, not one per three. 7 iterations is insulting.

I am not intirelly sure why it would be insulting, of all possible words to use. Anyway, as it stands, with the new mechanic, the limit should allow for about the same number of higher level at-wills that the first system allowed.

The main thing with the whole changing thing with the capacity mutations were some concerns that some people I discuss matters most with raised about the at-will thing.


3) Again, I'm going to argue to change the ability score for psi-likes, or at least to give some option for it. In addition to the arguments I had before, I would also like to point out that having psi-likes based on Int is a bit of a hit to the Aberration Ascendancy, forcing them to divide between Cha and Int to really get the full benefit of their power.

Strictly speaking, no. Only some supernatural abilities are based on charisma. A great many have no save or are based on constitution.


4) If anything, your explanation for the expanded spell-like list of Outsider and Construct is more confusing than before. Look, you really need to say something very clear, that leaves no doubt as to the intent. For example:
A) By taking this mutation, you can now select spell-likes from the X list when you take the Spell-Like Ability mutation.
B) This is not a new mutation, only an addendum to the mutation by this name, which can be found above. Evolutionists with access to the TYPE list who take that mutation can also select from the X list.

I will try to be clearer.

[AmberVael]

The augmented subtype allows you to retain access to your special mutation lists.
Nowhere in the quote on the augmented subtype does it say you get to count as that creature type when it would be beneficial, detrimental, or at any other time. All it does is mean that an Outsider who becomes a Dragon retains d8 HD, full BAB, full saves and 8+int skill points per HD. And that anyone else who becomes an Outsider doesn't get all their shiny HD instead of their lame ones.

As such, when you restrict the lists like so: "This list of mutations is available to all evolutionists of the construct type and to all those who take the Construct Mutator feat" anyone with the Augmented subtype doesn't get access. Also, even if you say it is open to people with the Augmented subtype, it only moves the question down along the line to Perfection, where you can choose to shed your augmented type.


The main thing with the whole changing thing with the capacity mutations were some concerns that some people I discuss matters most with raised about the at-will thing.
Look at it this way: Limiting the number of spell-likes you get doesn't remove the most powerful options, which largely stem from getting certain spells at will, not getting a massive number of spell-likes at will. All the other benefits of having many, many spells and abilities can already be done just with the basic Spell-Like/Psi-Like mutation (I'm pretty sure you can beat out the sorcerer on per day uses AND spells known that way without too much difficulty).

What this limit does is make it so that anyone who wants to make a slightly more unusual warlock finds themselves with even worse versatility. Which is saying something.

If you want to make at will spells/powers less ridiculous, you're better off restricting the list that they can be taken from, not limiting how many you can get. That's more work, obviously... but it also has the result you want. You might also consider cutting back on how many spell-likes you can get, and less how many at will spell-likes you can get.


Strictly speaking, no. Only some supernatural abilities are based on charisma. A great many have no save or are based on constitution.
Ah, so they get a bonus to abilities spread across three ability scores. That makes it better. :smalltongue:

Seriously though, these are things in which having a decent DC really makes a difference in effectiveness, and keeping in such a thing just hurts anyone trying to go that route, especially those people who have incentives to invest in it.

[Draken]

Nowhere in the quote on the augmented subtype does it say you get to count as that creature type when it would be beneficial, detrimental, or at any other time. All it does is mean that an Outsider who becomes a Dragon retains d8 HD, full BAB, full saves and 8+int skill points per HD. And that anyone else who becomes an Outsider doesn't get all their shiny HD instead of their lame ones.

As such, when you restrict the lists like so: "This list of mutations is available to all evolutionists of the construct type and to all those who take the Construct Mutator feat" anyone with the Augmented subtype doesn't get access. Also, even if you say it is open to people with the Augmented subtype, it only moves the question down along the line to Perfection, where you can choose to shed your augmented type.

Lists now include augmented subtype as providing the benefit. Perfection no longer allows you to lose the subtype since doing that doesn't really give ny benefit and would cause headaches.


Look at it this way: Limiting the number of spell-likes you get doesn't remove the most powerful options, which largely stem from getting certain spells at will, not getting a massive number of spell-likes at will. All the other benefits of having many, many spells and abilities can already be done just with the basic Spell-Like/Psi-Like mutation (I'm pretty sure you can beat out the sorcerer on per day uses AND spells known that way without too much difficulty).

What this limit does is make it so that anyone who wants to make a slightly more unusual warlock finds themselves with even worse versatility. Which is saying something.

If you want to make at will spells/powers less ridiculous, you're better off restricting the list that they can be taken from, not limiting how many you can get. That's more work, obviously... but it also has the result you want. You might also consider cutting back on how many spell-likes you can get, and less how many at will spell-likes you can get.

Argument is sound. Limitation changed to 1/2.


Ah, so they get a bonus to abilities spread across three ability scores. That makes it better. :smalltongue:

Seriously though, these are things in which having a decent DC really makes a difference in effectiveness, and keeping in such a thing just hurts anyone trying to go that route, especially those people who have incentives to invest in it.

The aberration ascendancy has been buffed to +3 on grounds that any give individual is unlikely to ever fully benefit from it anyway due to madness. MADNESS.

[Arkhaic]

Just a nitpick here, but the prerequiste "Any psi-like ability or the ability to manifest psionic powers." is redundant, as the ability to manifest psionic powers is a psi-like ability. That said, I doubt people will remember that if the listed prerequisite only says any psi-like ability.


Psi-Like Abilities (Ps)

The manifestation of powers by a psionic character is considered a psi-like ability, as is the manifestation of powers by creatures without a psionic class (creatures with the psionic subtype, also simply called psionic creatures).

[Draken]

Just a nitpick here, but the prerequiste "Any psi-like ability or the ability to manifest psionic powers." is redundant, as the ability to manifest psionic powers is a psi-like ability. That said, I doubt people will remember that if the listed prerequisite only says any psi-like ability.

I am aware of the redundancy.

[AmberVael]

So, I've been working more in depth with the class, and several things have arisen- I feel kinda bad about leveling so much criticism and uncertainty about the class, but I my intention is to be helpful rather than negative. It is my hope that my observations can help the class get refined, more than anything else.

Anyway, here are the things I've noticed:


Ethereal Step leaves it a little unclear as to whether the cooldown begins after you return to the material plane, or once the ability has been activated. Or, to look at it another way- I'm not sure whether enough applications of the mutation could allow indefinite periods on the Ethereal Plane or not (so long as a swift action is used every so often). Some clarification in wording might be useful.

Evolve Speed and Vestigial Wings are really just outdone by other mutations. I like having characters with notable speeds, but neither of these seem worth it to me, even though I'd like really like to take them. You're actually better off taking the Dimension Door power, because with a few iterations it can be used as a move or swift action, and its speed automatically scales at the same rate but without requiring a constant input of mutations. Plus, its teleportation. Teleportation is good. At a thought, I might advise that Evolve Speed and Vestigial Wings scale to an extent, in a manner similar to Adherent Hands and Chameleonic and so forth.

Evolve Resilience is quite potent. A single application effectively raises one's HD from d8 to d12, and it only grows from there. It is comparable in effect to the quite potent Vitality Belt soulmeld, except it is permanent and requires less investment for greater effect. I think this mutation may need to be decreased in power.

Spell Resistance. It comes to mind that, in conjunction with previous forms of Spell Resistance or other methods of raising SR, this mutation can be easily used to give a fairly impossibly high SR. Perhaps total SR could be limited in some way?

Gaze. As written, it would appear that this mutation, in combination with a single iteration of Glare, can give you a constant glare effect. More alarming is that you can take it more than once and there is no language to prevent multiple effects from being active at the same time. Having two constantly active actionless effects that can completely disable any opponent within 60ft for the cost of four mutations seems a little more powerful than one might want.

Warped Visage. This scales only slightly faster than Natural Invisibility (which can also grant miss chance), but doesn't stack with other miss chances, is bypassed by the same methods, and grants no other effects. It's a pretty strictly inferior mutation- this overlap probably needs to be resolved in some manner.

Disrupt Magic (and others). While building a gestalt Evolutionist//Warlock, it occurred to me that certain prerequisites in the spell-like and psi-like trees may prove pretty redundant, both from sources without and within. For example, if someone were to pick and choose between the two trees and decided to shoot for both Detect Thoughts and Detonate Magic, they'd end up needing detect psionics and detect magic. Someone who has multiclassed with warlock may be annoyed to have to take such mutations- and someone with access to the Outsider mutations who has gained Arcane Sight will find detect magic to be redundant. I feel like some other prerequisite may serve better.

Anomalous Mutation tetramorph. I got down to business really thinking about this, and have concluded it is pretty much one of the most powerful tetramorphs- and it is one of the first available and can be stacked. Appropriate builds can use it to gain entire feat trees, max out any skill, gain basically any spell under 6th level, as well as other things that mutations make available. It takes a little time to do, but such breadth and potency is something that could make a wizard envious. While I dearly love the idea, I think it could prove exceptionally problematic in play.
The Azure Form feat is similarly difficult, though with its own limitations and strengths. It may work less frequently, but it also works far more quickly.

Damage Reduction. In general, I like the way you've handled damage reduction. However, while building an evolutionist, a little thought came to me. As an example, make something like, say a Mineral Warrior Evolutionist. Use a feat or other method to gain access to the Construct mutation list. You can now use Material Damage Reduction to make, say, DR 8/Adamantine and Silver.
While there are still some ways to overcome it, it feels like it is a bit of a flaw in the system.

Spell-likes. There's always been a little question in the back of my mind as to how the Outsider Ascendancy interacts with spell-likes. For the most part, it seems clear. However, in every other situation, when a spell-like is increased to 7 uses per day or more, it becomes At Will. The Outsider Ascendancy has no such language. Is this purposeful?

[Draken]

So, I've been working more in depth with the class, and several things have arisen- I feel kinda bad about leveling so much criticism and uncertainty about the class, but I my intention is to be helpful rather than negative. It is my hope that my observations can help the class get refined, more than anything else.

Anyway, here are the things I've noticed:

Good criticism is always welcome.


Ethereal Step leaves it a little unclear as to whether the cooldown begins after you return to the material plane, or once the ability has been activated. Or, to look at it another way- I'm not sure whether enough applications of the mutation could allow indefinite periods on the Ethereal Plane or not (so long as a swift action is used every so often). Some clarification in wording might be useful.

Addressed.


Evolve Speed and Vestigial Wings are really just outdone by other mutations. I like having characters with notable speeds, but neither of these seem worth it to me, even though I'd like really like to take them. You're actually better off taking the Dimension Door power, because with a few iterations it can be used as a move or swift action, and its speed automatically scales at the same rate but without requiring a constant input of mutations. Plus, its teleportation. Teleportation is good. At a thought, I might advise that Evolve Speed and Vestigial Wings scale to an extent, in a manner similar to Adherent Hands and Chameleonic and so forth.

Addressed.


Evolve Resilience is quite potent. A single application effectively raises one's HD from d8 to d12, and it only grows from there. It is comparable in effect to the quite potent Vitality Belt soulmeld, except it is permanent and requires less investment for greater effect. I think this mutation may need to be decreased in power.

Evolve Resilience was buffed to that state some time ago, when I decided to get rid of its pointless twin in the Construct List. Guess it is, in fact, way too good.

It has been addressed, and I also gave the save boosters a pass.


Spell Resistance. It comes to mind that, in conjunction with previous forms of Spell Resistance or other methods of raising SR, this mutation can be easily used to give a fairly impossibly high SR. Perhaps total SR could be limited in some way?

Spell resistance will never stop being a thorn in my side. I will think of something.


Gaze. As written, it would appear that this mutation, in combination with a single iteration of Glare, can give you a constant glare effect. More alarming is that you can take it more than once and there is no language to prevent multiple effects from being active at the same time. Having two constantly active actionless effects that can completely disable any opponent within 60ft for the cost of four mutations seems a little more powerful than one might want.

Addressed.


Warped Visage. This scales only slightly faster than Natural Invisibility (which can also grant miss chance), but doesn't stack with other miss chances, is bypassed by the same methods, and grants no other effects. It's a pretty strictly inferior mutation- this overlap probably needs to be resolved in some manner.

Addressed.


Disrupt Magic (and others). While building a gestalt Evolutionist//Warlock, it occurred to me that certain prerequisites in the spell-like and psi-like trees may prove pretty redundant, both from sources without and within. For example, if someone were to pick and choose between the two trees and decided to shoot for both Detect Thoughts and Detonate Magic, they'd end up needing detect psionics and detect magic. Someone who has multiclassed with warlock may be annoyed to have to take such mutations- and someone with access to the Outsider mutations who has gained Arcane Sight will find detect magic to be redundant. I feel like some other prerequisite may serve better.

Addressed.


Anomalous Mutation tetramorph. I got down to business really thinking about this, and have concluded it is pretty much one of the most powerful tetramorphs- and it is one of the first available and can be stacked. Appropriate builds can use it to gain entire feat trees, max out any skill, gain basically any spell under 6th level, as well as other things that mutations make available. It takes a little time to do, but such breadth and potency is something that could make a wizard envious. While I dearly love the idea, I think it could prove exceptionally problematic in play.
The Azure Form feat is similarly difficult, though with its own limitations and strengths. It may work less frequently, but it also works far more quickly.

Yes. I know that Anomalous Mutation is likely the strongest teratomorph available. I am going to think about that one for a bit but perhaps a limit on how many times it can be taken is in order.


Damage Reduction. In general, I like the way you've handled damage reduction. However, while building an evolutionist, a little thought came to me. As an example, make something like, say a Mineral Warrior Evolutionist. Use a feat or other method to gain access to the Construct mutation list. You can now use Material Damage Reduction to make, say, DR 8/Adamantine and Silver.
While there are still some ways to overcome it, it feels like it is a bit of a flaw in the system.

Addressed.


Spell-likes. There's always been a little question in the back of my mind as to how the Outsider Ascendancy interacts with spell-likes. For the most part, it seems clear. However, in every other situation, when a spell-like is increased to 7 uses per day or more, it becomes At Will. The Outsider Ascendancy has no such language. Is this purposeful?

Addressed.

----------

CHANGELOG

Basic
Evolve Resilience - Now provides 1hp/mutator level and can be taken once per two mutator levels.
Evolve Fortitude - Can now be taken once per six mutator levels instead of once per seven mutator level.
Evolve Reflexes - Can now be taken once per six mutator levels instead of once per seven mutator level.
Evolve Will - Can now be taken once per six mutator levels instead of once per seven mutator level.

Innate
Aquatic Adaptation - Can only be taken once per four mutator levels.
Evolve Speed - Now increases base land speed by 10 feet, can only be taken once per six mutator levels.
Nimble Form - Can now be taken once per six mutator levels, but gives +2 Dex.
Powerful Form - Can now be taken once per six mutator levels, but gives +2 Str.
Resilient Form - Can now be taken once per six mutator levels, but gives +2 Con.
Superior Cognizance - Can now be taken once per six mutator levels, but gives +2 Int.
Superior Grace - Can now be taken once per six mutator levels, but gives +2 Cha.
Superior Instinct - Can now be taken once per six mutator levels, but gives +2 Wis.
Vestigial Wings - Now increases fly speed by 10 feet. Can only be taken once per four mutator levels.

Supernatural
Charm - Duration changed to 24 hours/mutator level. Additional purchases increase number of targets.
Ethereal Step - Cooldown clarified.
Gaze - A successful save now grant temporary immunity to that gaze. Only one gaze can be active at a time.
Warped Visage - Sixth purchase now allows some protection to remain even in the face of True Seeing.

Psi-like & Spell-like
Several mutations have been clarified as having slightly broader prerequisites than they appeared to have before.

Construct
Material Damage Reduction - can no longer be used for shenanigans.

Outsider
Ascendancy - Clarified.

[Gideon Falcon]

You know, the Monstrous Humanoid Perfection is nice, but a bit lackluster in comparison to the others. For example, the Humanoid perfection grants pretty much everything, plus your friends get it, plus a universal ability increase.

[Draken]

You know, the Monstrous Humanoid Perfection is nice, but a bit lackluster in comparison to the others. For example, the Humanoid perfection grants pretty much everything, plus your friends get it, plus a universal ability increase.

I know it is lackluster. I ran out of ideas for it.

It does have an advantage over the Humanoid perfection. Since the aura of the humanoid perfection gives a morale bonus, it overlaps with the vastly more optimizeable Inspire Courage.

[Gideon Falcon]

So, maybe just give Monstrous humanoids the blanket +2, and call it good?

[Draken]

Meh. Makes it even, I suppose.

CHANGELOG

Teratomorphisms
Flight - Now gives poor maneuverability.

Mutant Perfection
Fey Perfection - The two spell-like abilities it gains can now be subject to Arcane Capacity again.
Magical beast Perfection - Get your best turning optimization. The Magical Beast perfection now grants Rebuke and Control Magical Beasts.
Monstrous Humanoid Perfection - Now also gives a +2 to all ability scores. Whoop.

Innate Mutations
Vestigial Wings - Jump bonus increased to +5, now increases maneuverability by one step for each time it is taken. Can now be taken once per 5 mutator levels.

Construct Mutations
New Mutation
- Force Barrage: Magic Missiles as a swift action!

[ArkenBrony]

the construct teratomorphism "spellward" is worded oddly, could you explain what it means?

[Draken]

the construct teratomorphism "spellward" is worded oddly, could you explain what it means?

Spellward makes you immune to spells that allow spell resistance, as long as said spells have a maximum spell level equal to, or less, than your highest available rank of teratomorphisms. Said rank is 3° at level 8 and 6° at level 17.

[DiGiacomon]

Making a spell casting shapeShifter, could the elemntal attack mutation be applied to the Arms of the outer planes teratamorphism.

I know as worded it wouldn't but I can see it going either way from a conceptual percpective.

Help? Thanks

[Draken]

Making a spell casting shapeShifter, could the elemntal attack mutation be applied to the Arms of the outer planes teratamorphism.

I know as worded it wouldn't but I can see it going either way from a conceptual percpective.

Help? Thanks

The elemental infusion mutation in the Elemental list does what you want.

[tonberrian]

So what counts for changing your form for access to mutations? Size-change spells? Polymorph effects? Any transmutation effect?

[Hanuman]

I'm wanting to bring evolutionist mechanics into the class I'm currently writing:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15228375

This would be done as a PrC, an ACF and by including it's effects into the BIO type sprayer (BIOs), utilizing temporary mutations (very temporary).

If any ideas scream out to you let me know, otherwise I'll be slowly working this in as I have time to.

[Draken]

So what counts for changing your form for access to mutations? Size-change spells? Polymorph effects? Any transmutation effect?

That is supposed to apply to Polymorph effects.


I'm wanting to bring evolutionist mechanics into the class I'm currently writing:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15228375

This would be done as a PrC, an ACF and by including it's effects into the BIO type sprayer (BIOs), utilizing temporary mutations (very temporary).

If any ideas scream out to you let me know, otherwise I'll be slowly working this in as I have time to.

Sure, go for it.

[Omnicrat]

That is supposed to apply to Polymorph effects.

What about a ritual that permanently changes you from one type of creature to another? For example, Dwarf to Ogre.

[Necroticplague]

What about a ritual that permanently changes you from one type of creature to another? For example, Dwarf to Ogre.

Such a ritual would be based upon a polymorph effect (probably POA, since it's permanent), so you would lose such.

[Draken]

What about a ritual that permanently changes you from one type of creature to another? For example, Dwarf to Ogre.


Such a ritual would be based upon a polymorph effect (probably POA, since it's permanent), so you would lose such.

The purpose of that rule is to prevent polymorph abuse with the various powers of the class.

And as far as rituals go, I honestly have not heard of them being used in anything but TO, which is pretty much aimed at locating abuses. So there is that.

If a legitimate use of the rituals is in place, the rule can be waived as long as by the end of it the character is not considered "polymorphed".

[tonberrian]

So if I take the Detect Thoughts mutation and get the ability to not have to concentrate on it, I can apply the mind-reading bonuses from the new mutation to everybody that fails the save, right?

[Draken]

So if I take the Detect Thoughts mutation and get the ability to not have to concentrate on it, I can apply the mind-reading bonuses from the new mutation to everybody that fails the save, right?

Yes. All hail the filler gods.

[Lateral]

So, I don't quite understand Gloom. The rules for 'inky darkness' seem kind of pointless- I mean, once you radiate complete darkness, everything in it is effectively blind, rather than just beyond five feet, and since it's magical creatures with darkvision can't see through it anyway. What's the purpose of the upgrade at seven mutations if it's not as powerful as the effect of complete darkness?

[Draken]

So, I don't quite understand Gloom. The rules for 'inky darkness' seem kind of pointless- I mean, once you radiate complete darkness, everything in it is effectively blind, rather than just beyond five feet, and since it's magical creatures with darkvision can't see through it anyway. What's the purpose of the upgrade at seven mutations if it's not as powerful as the effect of complete darkness?

Complete darkness does not mean magical darkness. It means complete darkness.

For the record:

Shadowy illumination - provides concealment against creatures without Darkvision or low-light vision.

Complete Darkness - creatures without Darkvision are effectively blind.

"Inky Darkness" as per the rank 7 of the mutation, is effectively a Fog effect.

[Lateral]

Well, okay, but on creatures without Darkvision, it's actually worse.

[Draken]

Well, okay, but on creatures without Darkvision, it's actually worse.

Addressed.

[Lateral]

Oh, and I realized where I got confused: It says 'similar to a Darkness spell', which does negate darkvision. I think that might need to be specified in the text.

[tonberrian]

What about another purchase of the Alternate Form ability that allows you to appear as if you don't have any mutations, but whenever you use one that would be nonfunctional if you were in a different form it automatically becomes apparent? So like you punch a seemingly normal old man and suddenly his flesh around the impact is made of rock, and then he grows two more heads and nasty venomous jaws and gobbles you up.

[Hanuman]

What about another purchase of the Alternate Form ability that allows you to appear as if you don't have any mutations, but whenever you use one that would be nonfunctional if you were in a different form it automatically becomes apparent? So like you punch a seemingly normal old man and suddenly his flesh around the impact is made of rock, and then he grows two more heads and nasty venomous jaws and gobbles you up.
That'd be called a Worldly Guise.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153536

[inuyasha]

hey...what if we all tried to create the most über awesome build we could make with this class? just straight evolutionist, creating NPCs of 10th level, and having them battle to da death!

[Gwazi Magnum]

This is an awesome class I've wanted to try in a campaign for a long time now. I also really wish there was a handbook for this class to help show some of the more powerful options you could have with this class.

Edit: I remember there being a feat that gave extra mutations but can't find it now. Was it taken away? If so are there any ways I can covert feats into extra mutations?

Also, the Chimerism's, I can find the feats for them but not the section that describes them themselves or how many mutations they hold. Is this described more on a separate page?

Ignore the last bit, I found it further down hidden by others posts :P

[Draken]

hey...what if we all tried to create the most über awesome build we could make with this class? just straight evolutionist, creating NPCs of 10th level, and having them battle to da death!

That is more of an idea for the game recruitment area.


This is an awesome class I've wanted to try in a campaign for a long time now. I also really wish there was a handbook for this class to help show some of the more powerful options you could have with this class.

Edit: I remember there being a feat that gave extra mutations but can't find it now. Was it taken away? If so are there any ways I can covert feats into extra mutations?

Also, the Chimerism's, I can find the feats for them but not the section that describes them themselves or how many mutations they hold. Is this described more on a separate page?

Ignore the last bit, I found it further down hidden by others posts :P

There was a feat, "Great Changer" but it was removed some time ago, when I increased the number of mutations the character gets as a baseline. It was removed because the feat was pretty much always the best option for your feats and the class still kind of felt starved for mutations at times.

[Gwazi Magnum]

There was a feat, "Great Changer" but it was removed some time ago, when I increased the number of mutations the character gets as a baseline. It was removed because the feat was pretty much always the best option for your feats and the class still kind of felt starved for mutations at times.

Ah, ok then.

Does that mean the only mutations we can get now are through class levels? Or are there ways to gain more than the +4 per level? Other than the Chimerisms that is.

[Draken]

Ah, ok then.

Does that mean the only mutations we can get now are through class levels? Or are there ways to gain more than the +4 per level? Other than the Chimerisms that is.

The only way to get more mutations is through the feats that enable the secial lists (one extra each) or some prestige classes (Malshaper and Anomaly, chiefly)

[Gwazi Magnum]

The only way to get more mutations is through the feats that enable the secial lists (one extra each) or some prestige classes (Malshaper and Anomaly, chiefly)

Ok, looks like mutations will need to be a bit more specialized then.
Thanks. :)

[Sherishade]

OK about to use your class in a campaign and was going to make a Aasimer thats trying to be like his ancestor a solar. Now as an Aasimer I'm an outsider (native), this I understand allows me to use the outsider mutations.
My question is when I hit level 10 and choose outsider ascendancy, I assume I stay outsider (native), unless I choose another plane like the 7 mounting heavens of Celestia. Now should I choose another plane as my home I'm assuming I'd lose my native subtype making me a true outsider; in this example what happens when I die?
Once I'm capable of taking the Teratomorphism planar renewal then I can revive on my new home plane, but that is a full level away. Also for example once I am level 11 and have planar renewal but not planes walker at 14 how would I get back to my group. Its almost like my home plane of Celestia is now my prison, a nice and enjoyable prison but still a prison.

[Draken]

OK about to use your class in a campaign and was going to make a Aasimer thats trying to be like his ancestor a solar. Now as an Aasimer I'm an outsider (native), this I understand allows me to use the outsider mutations.
My question is when I hit level 10 and choose outsider ascendancy, I assume I stay outsider (native), unless I choose another plane like the 7 mounting heavens of Celestia. Now should I choose another plane as my home I'm assuming I'd lose my native subtype making me a true outsider; in this example what happens when I die?
Once I'm capable of taking the Teratomorphism planar renewal then I can revive on my new home plane, but that is a full level away. Also for example once I am level 11 and have planar renewal but not planes walker at 14 how would I get back to my group. Its almost like my home plane of Celestia is now my prison, a nice and enjoyable prison but still a prison.

By the rules, you keep the native subtype, even if you are no longer a native of the material (which means you can be resurrected, etc), and if you die without planar renewal, well, you die, simple as that.

As for returning to the material after Planar Renewal revives you in Celestia, even if you can't return on your own power:

1. You can always request of a local outsider to planeshift you back and pay their fee.

2. You can look for a way to Sigil and from there to the material.

3. Your allies can cast Planar Binding/Planar Ally, you are a viable target. They can also cast Planeshift to get you. At 11th level, a cleric or wizard could do it.

[Sherishade]

Thanks for the quick response and ouuuu Sigil now theres a interesting detour forgot all about the City of Doors.

[Kerim]

I haven't looked the entire class over me, but one thing is really buggering me: The Regeneration I tetramorph. It is severely overpowered in my own opinion. The time required to regenerate body parts is much too fast: Trolls, who are basically 'the' regenerating monsters, need 3d6 minutes to recover their lost limbs, which, on average, makes about 10 or 11 minutes, which is much more than what the Evolutionist would get.

Also, the amount: You get fast healing 4, stacking with every other type (which most of this type do not), which turns into a whopping 14 if it's about non-lethal damage, which, after you take the second tetramorphism basically makes you capable of standing in the middle of a crowd who are trying to cut you up, and healing every single point of damage they do. And even at level 8, when they get the first, especially if they manage to find some other way to convert damage to nonlethal, it already makes them very hard to kill.

Also, you almost completely stopped the weakness that regeneration has: They can heal nonlethal damage, but not if it's turned into lethal damage because they were hit by something that bypasses it. Now something bypassing it is just a minor nuisance, since they can heal it slightly less fast.

I am not a class-maker, of course, but this seems very, very powerful, especially in the hands of a PC.

If I might make a suggestion: Make it a bit more segmented. Have it, for instance, be at II, IV, and VI: Regeneration 1, at II, gives fast healing 2, which doesn't stack unless the other ability says it does (Like the mutation), 2, at IV, you can improve it to fast healing 4, or only take it then, and get fast healing 2, combined with the ability to reattach lost limbs at most (con modifier) rounds after you lost them. 3, at VI, gives you regeneration 1, or increases your fast healing by 1, and turns it into regeneration.

[Necroticplague]

Um, just to point out, to both the the dude above me and the original post containing the regeneration mutation: Fast healing doesn't "stack", because it's an ability, not a boost. It's like having DR of two different types. If you have dr5/silver and dr3/silver or good, they don't combine to make dr8/silver or good. Similarly, if you have fast healing 1 and fast healing 2, they don't cmmbine to make fast healing 3, you just have two different instances of fast healing. They both do activate at the same time, so the effect is similar, but fast healing is not stacking with anything, so stating whether is does or doesn't stack is pointless.

[Draken]

Um, just to point out, to both the the dude above me and the original post containing the regeneration mutation: Fast healing doesn't "stack", because it's an ability, not a boost. It's like having DR of two different types. If you have dr5/silver and dr3/silver or good, they don't combine to make dr8/silver or good. Similarly, if you have fast healing 1 and fast healing 2, they don't cmmbine to make fast healing 3, you just have two different instances of fast healing. They both do activate at the same time, so the effect is similar, but fast healing is not stacking with anything, so stating whether is does or doesn't stack is pointless.

Just to make sure this is clear, the various forms of fast healing granted by the evolutionist are all called out as stacking.

Now, by parts.


I haven't looked the entire class over me, but one thing is really buggering me: The Regeneration I tetramorph. It is severely overpowered in my own opinion. The time required to regenerate body parts is much too fast: Trolls, who are basically 'the' regenerating monsters, need 3d6 minutes to recover their lost limbs, which, on average, makes about 10 or 11 minutes, which is much more than what the Evolutionist would get.

The time it takes isn't much of a balance issue, really. One, five or ten minutes invariably means that the regeneration will happen out of combat time.


Also, the amount: You get fast healing 4, stacking with every other type (which most of this type do not), which turns into a whopping 14 if it's about non-lethal damage, which, after you take the second tetramorphism basically makes you capable of standing in the middle of a crowd who are trying to cut you up, and healing every single point of damage they do. And even at level 8, when they get the first, especially if they manage to find some other way to convert damage to nonlethal, it already makes them very hard to kill.

This is a detail that begs consideration. The evolutionist has a somewhat high optimization floor. Most of his defensive abilities were made with the intent of being viable choices in an environment where damage is being dished out in relatively high amounts, such as two-handed power attacking (but not necessarily ubercharging, mind you). Fast Healing and damage reduction in 3.5 are almost never relevant to challenging combat due to low values.

This is honestly one thing that doesn't happen anywhere else in D&D 3.5. You can pick any class and build it for massive damage, but respectable defensive options for soaking damage don't exist. You are either invulnerable or able to take 1-4 attacks before going down.

Also a crowd (either a mob as per cityscape or eight or more npcs surrounding you and attacking) that is dealing 14 damage per round to a 14th level character isn't a threat to begin with and should never be regarded as such.


Also, you almost completely stopped the weakness that regeneration has: They can heal nonlethal damage, but not if it's turned into lethal damage because they were hit by something that bypasses it. Now something bypassing it is just a minor nuisance, since they can heal it slightly less fast.

The fast healing 2/regeneration 5 of the first teratomorphism is pretty much the only worthwhile part of it because limbs loss isn't actually a thing that happens with any sort of frequency (the only non-homebrew mechanic for limb loss in 3.5 D&D is vorpal and it only applies to heads).


I am not a class-maker, of course, but this seems very, very powerful, especially in the hands of a PC.

Less than it might seen! It is no more powerful than any form of reliable healing really. Just less expensive than, say, packing up the wands of lesser vigor.

If you are referring to the ability to not die due to physical damage, it is useful, but not specially powerful. A TPK where everyone gets knocked out cold and then coup de graced is still a TPK.


If I might make a suggestion: Make it a bit more segmented. Have it, for instance, be at II, IV, and VI: Regeneration 1, at II, gives fast healing 2, which doesn't stack unless the other ability says it does (Like the mutation), 2, at IV, you can improve it to fast healing 4, or only take it then, and get fast healing 2, combined with the ability to reattach lost limbs at most (con modifier) rounds after you lost them. 3, at VI, gives you regeneration 1, or increases your fast healing by 1, and turns it into regeneration.

... Serious question.

Would you consider taking any of these suggested teratomorphisms in a build? Because I wouldn't (also worth noting that other than the "you won't die except this way" aspect, regeneration is inferior to fast healing).

And another relevant question. Would you always consider Regeneration I and II as your first choices of teratomorphisms on any given build, to the exclusion of the options available?

[Mithril Leaf]

I've made probably 5 or 6 theoretical evolutionist builds and have yet to find regeneration worth taking. It's an ability totally replicated by a weak 7th level spell. Buy a scroll and the one time it comes up, you're set.

[inuyasha]

Hey Draken, whats the starting age for the evolutionist? Im building a party of evolutionists right now and I want to know :)

[Draken]

Hey Draken, whats the starting age for the evolutionist? Im building a party of evolutionists right now and I want to know :)

Use the table for complex classes, cleric/druid/monk/wizard.

[Omnicrat]

Use the table for complex classes, cleric/druid/monk/wizard.

Complex? Really? I always assumed simple. I mean, it can just be mutation, not necessarily studied and controlled evolution, can it not?

[Draken]

Complex? Really? I always assumed simple. I mean, it can just be mutation, not necessarily studied and controlled evolution, can it not?

I tend to make a comparison between the Evolutionist, Ozodrin and Harrowed when explaining my decision in this regard.

The Harrowed doesn't need to learn its powers, he is stuck with them from birth and there is a thing inside his soul that gives him instinctive control of his powers, strictly speaking, the class' chief features, the harrowings, aren't under the character's control*, they are done by the Beast. He is the Sorcerer, the power is in his blood, he didn't grasp his power from nothingness, he did not earn it, he was given it.

It is a simple class for a character to take.

* character =/= player.

The Ozodrin is either born into what he is or changed into what he is by a force outside of his control, and then he must grow into his power. He is the Bard, the Fighter, the power was there for the taking, it was not vast, but it seemed worth sinking the effort into claiming it.

The Ozodrin is a an average complexity class for a character to take**.

** harsh on a player, however.

The evolutionist starts out a muggle. He does not necessarily have any particular talent or knack for what he is getting into. Nothing external grants him power. He studies the creatures of the world in all of their insanely, variedly, divinely (or otherwise) designed shapes and finds a way to induce the changes on himself. He is the Wizard, nothing was given to him, he earned it through pain and sweat, he learned his craft from a starting point of zero, whereas others had born talent, gifts or crutches.

It is a complex class.

----

I wanted to use Warlock/Sorcerer/Wizard for this little blurb but the sorcerer is a simple class, not an average one, so that kind of breaks down. The difference would still be kind of: "Granted power vs Born power vs Learned power".

----

But all that refers to the default assumption for the class. Starting age is more important for an individual character than for a class as a whole, so I see no point to it beyond giving an age at which members of a given race tend to start adventuring.

[Sherishade]

Hello I've got another question as I'm building one of many mock builds. Do I have to use all mutation points at any given level, can I save any number for later levels? Also on that same line of reasoning do I have to take a low level tertomorphism; excluding prereqs which you obviously need to take.

Also this is probably a "any given moment DM" question, but would you allow a temporary stat boost from eagles splendor to raise the bonus spell amount to at-will.
Example I'm at 35 charisma and don't have the required 7 uses for a 6th level spell like ability to be at-will; I use my wand/scroll/spell-like to give my self eagles splendor giving me 39 charisma. I'm now technically getting 7 uses for 6th level spell-likes, so does it become at-will until the spell wears off?

[Necroticplague]

Just to make sure this is clear, the various forms of fast healing granted by the evolutionist are all called out as stacking.

I'm aware of that. My main point of that whole paragraph is that it doesn't matter either way whether you say it stacks or not, because it will effectively act like it does.

[Moonwolf727]

I'm aware of that. My main point of that whole paragraph is that it doesn't matter either way whether you say it stacks or not, because it will effectively act like it does.

If in either case it would work then there is no point complaining, now is there? We can all be content that it runs smoothly enough and exactly as intended rather than raising hell over one little repitition of the same detail. Let's all be nice about this now. :smallsmile:

[Draken]

Hello I've got another question as I'm building one of many mock builds. Do I have to use all mutation points at any given level, can I save any number for later levels? Also on that same line of reasoning do I have to take a low level tertomorphism; excluding prereqs which you obviously need to take.

Strictly speaking, you have to use them all at the level gained. However, when building a high level character, you can just cherry pick through the mass of mutations because I doubt it is possible to end up with an illegal build due to lack of level appropriate qualifications.

As for teratomorphisms, you have to take ones appropriate to the levels earned. So by default you will have:

One rank I teratomorphism.
One rank II teratomorphism.
One rank III teratomorphism.
One rank IV teratomorphism.
One rank V teratomorphism.
And one rank VI teratomorphism.

With the possibility to exchange one of the higher ranked teratomorphisms for one of any rank lower than that specific teratomorphism.


Also this is probably a "any given moment DM" question, but would you allow a temporary stat boost from eagles splendor to raise the bonus spell amount to at-will.
Example I'm at 35 charisma and don't have the required 7 uses for a 6th level spell like ability to be at-will; I use my wand/scroll/spell-like to give my self eagles splendor giving me 39 charisma. I'm now technically getting 7 uses for 6th level spell-likes, so does it become at-will until the spell wears off?

Temporary boosts like that are called out as not giving bonus spells, if I recall correctly. An item giving the enhancement bonus would do it, however.

[Sherishade]

Thanks, ya there are so many rules I keep over looking or forgetting them lol.

[inuyasha]

Btw, draken, Im going to playtest this this weekend with some family, i am making 4 level 1 evolutionists, one is a plant oriented elf, one is an orc blessed by gruumsh, another is a gnome tinkering with himself and adding mechanical parts, and the last one is a shadowy outsider halfling

[Moonwolf727]

I have a question actually. Does the Heart of the Elements [Earth] tetramorph grant you a burrowing speed at all? I don't see any other way to obtain one and one of the elemental mutations makes mention of it as a prerequisite.

Sorry if this has been asked before :smallredface:

[Draken]

I have a question actually. Does the Heart of the Elements [Earth] tetramorph grant you a burrowing speed at all? I don't see any other way to obtain one and one of the elemental mutations makes mention of it as a prerequisite.

Sorry if this has been asked before :smallredface:

Core Teratomorphs, rank III.

[Moonwolf727]

Core Teratomorphs, rank III.

Oh. I was expecting it to just be a mutation :smallconfused:
Fair enough, weird that it'd require me to miss out on one of the elemental tetramorphs considering they chain together so well but there's no use complaining, thanks for the info.

[Draken]

Oh. I was expecting it to just be a mutation :smallconfused:
Fair enough, weird that it'd require me to miss out on one of the elemental tetramorphs considering they chain together so well but there's no use complaining, thanks for the info.

Burrow is a teratomorph for the same reason that Flight is a teratomorph, it is a very powerful method of locomotion. Arguably, burrow is the most powerful method of locomotion since while burrowing you are effectively invulnerable due to lack of Line of Effect (unless your opponent crawls into any tunnels you happen to leave).

Climb and Swim are less powerful due to actually being doable without special abilities (even if not in a very combat-worthy manner) and being situationally useful, thus they get to be available through mutations.

[Omnicrat]

Burrow is a teratomorph for the same reason that Flight is a teratomorph, it is a very powerful method of locomotion. Arguably, burrow is the most powerful method of locomotion since while burrowing you are effectively invulnerable due to lack of Line of Effect (unless your opponent crawls into any tunnels you happen to leave).

Climb and Swim are less powerful due to actually being doable without special abilities (even if not in a very combat-worthy manner) and being situationally useful, thus they get to be available through mutations.

He does have a point about needing to skip an earth teratormorph to get it, though. Maybe include a small burrow speed in the earth teratomorph?

[Draken]

He does have a point about needing to skip an earth teratormorph to get it, though. Maybe include a small burrow speed in the earth teratomorph?

Hmm... Any reason for the fixation on the 'earth' teratomorph? I am getting the impression that this is based on a mistake of understanding regarding the scaling Heart of [Element] teratomorphisms. They scale with any teratomorphism, not only the ones in the elemental list.

[Milo v3]

Hmm... Any reason for the fixation on the 'earth' teratomorph? I am getting the impression that this is based on a mistake of understanding regarding the scaling Heart of [Element] teratomorphisms. They scale with any teratomorphism, not only the ones in the elemental list.

I think the issue is more, he can't get all the Earth Elemental Teratomorphisms if he spends one on burrowing.

[Draken]

I think the issue is more, he can't get all the Earth Elemental Teratomorphisms if he spends one on burrowing.

Control Elements can be imitated with mere mutations, or he could take the aberration perfection.

Alternatively, there is probably a spell in the druid and wizard lists that is under level 6 and grants a burrow speed.

[Mithril Leaf]

Control Elements can be imitated with mere mutations, or he could take the aberration perfection.

Alternatively, there is probably a spell in the druid and wizard lists that is under level 6 and grants a burrow speed.

Xorn movement lasts Rounds/level and gives you the ability to move through earth as it's namesake. It's a 5th level wizard spell.

[Hanuman]

I tend to make a comparison between the Evolutionist, Ozodrin and Harrowed when explaining my decision in this regard.

The Harrowed doesn't need to learn its powers, he is stuck with them from birth and there is a thing inside his soul that gives him instinctive control of his powers, strictly speaking, the class' chief features, the harrowings, aren't under the character's control*, they are done by the Beast. He is the Sorcerer, the power is in his blood, he didn't grasp his power from nothingness, he did not earn it, he was given it.

It is a simple class for a character to take.

I hadn't seen Harrowed, thanks a bunch.

Really good flavor in there!

[DiGiacomon]

Been playing a Mage type evolutionist, something came up in our latest game that I'm not sure about.

The Disrupt Magic mutation I am curious about the original intent on it b/c we discovered spell like abilities could not be used in counter spelling which was my intent on this mutation.

Curious and wanted to make sure it works how you want it to.

[Draken]

Been playing a Mage type evolutionist, something came up in our latest game that I'm not sure about.

The Disrupt Magic mutation I am curious about the original intent on it b/c we discovered spell like abilities could not be used in counter spelling which was my intent on this mutation.

Curious and wanted to make sure it works how you want it to.

Disrupt Magic was meant to work simply as an at-will dispel magic, I am afraid. The fact that spell-like abilities can't be used to counterspell is an unfortunate limitation of the baseline rules for spell-like abilities that reduces somewhat the utility of the mutation*.

*Then again, at-will "neerneer, no magic for you" is stupid.

[Necroticplague]

Disrupt Magic was meant to work simply as an at-will dispel magic, I am afraid. The fact that spell-like abilities can't be used to counterspell is an unfortunate limitation of the baseline rules for spell-like abilities that reduces somewhat the utility of the mutation*.

*Then again, at-will "neerneer, no magic for you" is stupid.

Actually, since the part about not countering with SLAs is a general rule, it's arguably overridden by the fact dispel magic is specifically called out as being able to be used to counter any spell, since specific beats general.Plus, considering it's usually a better use of actions grappling or killing the caster in question, and it does diddly against non-casters, it's not really that strong.

[Draken]

Hahaha... Oh lord. I just might need to make a new thread. I keep hitting GitP's character cap.

New mutation list is up. Unfortunately, to get it in, I had to get rid of a few funny sidebars, including one about sign and the Positive Side of the Force one.

Oh well, here are they both, for reference.

Sidebar: The Positive Side of the Force
Deathless. They are identical to undead in every way except for being positive energy based instead of negative energy based.

This means that the undead mutations can pretty easily be adapted into Deathless mutations!

First of all, the Deathless list must be unlocked with its own feat Deathless Mutator, which is identical to Undead Mutator in all other ways because the unlocking feats are all copies of one another anyway.

Other than that, just flip the switch on the mutations, teratomorphisms and ascendancy/perfection where needed. Ability Damage/Drain stay as they are. Spawn created Deathless zombies instead of undead zombies. Desecrate becomes Consecrate. Gloom becomes Light. Energy Drain becomes...

Uh...

Well. It either stays as negative levels or you do something about Positive levels not being stupid.

The Negaton Touch line, with all its negative energy damage goodies turns into positive energy. At first glance, this could very well look like infinite healing ad it may very well be if you are willing to run with it. But as the ravid and Xag-Ya kindly show us, positive energy does not necessarily heal. It would invariably heal the deathless, however.

As a final note, Deathless Perfection gives Major/Minor positive dominance, of course.

Sidebar: Signs of the Apocalypse
Heroes don’t take Sign.
There are scant few arguments to make against this assertive. A lot of stuff in the Ancient Mutator list is highly questionable as a choice that good or neutral characters would make. Even the most pragmatic protagonists should wonder if Defile is worth it, and if the Ancient Ascendancy below isn’t going too far. Both of these pale before Sign. Nothing good ever comes out of Sign. Sign is Pestilence. Sign is Infestation. Sign is war, woe, hatred, destruction. The bearer of a sign announces his arrival miles in advance through discord, disease and twisted miracles, his wake can be nothing but misery.
The world is a worse place because someone carrying a Sign is on it. Heroes don’t take Sign.

As an optional rule for sandbox campaigns, a character bearing a sign risks attracting the attention of the being that is normally associated with it. At the end of every year in which at least one being in the world is bearing a Sign there is a stacking 1% chance that the Elder Evil associated with the sign will become active, initiating that creature’s plotline.

Changelog:

Mutant Ascendancy:
Dragon: Bonus to breath weapon DC increased to +3.
Fey: Bonuses to DCs increased to +3.
Monstrous Humanoid: Now grants two bonus mutations and one bonus mutator feat.

Extraordinaire List:
- Trample: Now uses your unarmed strike damage if you lack a slam attack.

Feats:
New Feat: Ancient Mutator - Allows access to the Ancient Mutations list.
New Feat: Empowered Sign - Epic feat, increases the power of the Sign teratomorphism.
New Feat: Resin Artisan - Improves ability to craft using resin.

New mutation list added: Ancient Mutations

[AmberVael]

Hm. I feel like the mutation ascendency and perfection of the Ancient Mutator really outclasses a lot of the others, but even if I give it benefit of the doubt, I see this one other issue.

The Ascendancy gives you Vile Feats. This is cool.
Perfection gives you immunity to a lot of things, including ability damage. This is also cool.

What isn't cool is the interaction between these two things, because at least four of the Vile feats in the Elder Evils book say you can't have them from them if you're immune to ability damage. It's a bit awkward to determine what happens if you have one of those feats and then get your perfection.

[Omnicrat]

So what was changed? You normally have a change log post with new stuff.

[Draken]

Hm. I feel like the mutation ascendency and perfection of the Ancient Mutator really outclasses a lot of the others, but even if I give it benefit of the doubt, I see this one other issue.

The Ascendancy gives you Vile Feats. This is cool.
Perfection gives you immunity to a lot of things, including ability damage. This is also cool.

What isn't cool is the interaction between these two things, because at least four of the Vile feats in the Elder Evils book say you can't have them from them if you're immune to ability damage. It's a bit awkward to determine what happens if you have one of those feats and then get your perfection.

I overlooked that. I have included a point that you can ignore your immunity (granted by the perfection) in order to use your vile feats.

As for the perfection, I lowered the energy resistances granted to 5 each instead of 10. The overall bonuses of the perfection are on par with the list of immunities granted by a few of the other type changes, making the Malefic property (which can be a big shot in the foot, no matter what you pick) the real selling point.


So what was changed? You normally have a change log post with new stuff.

I added the changelog. It is just kind of small.

[Milo v3]

I am very interested in creating a Dvati evolutionist with the addition of Symbiosis :smallbiggrin:

Wonder if they have to take the same mutations....

[Draken]

I am very interested in creating a Dvati evolutionist with the addition of Symbiosis :smallbiggrin:

Wonder if they have to take the same mutations....

Two Dvati have the same sheet. So yes, they have to take the same mutations. They also share a pool of uses for abilities with daily uses or cooldowns, if I recall their mechanics correctly.

[Milo v3]

Two Dvati have the same sheet. So yes, they have to take the same mutations. They also share a pool of uses for abilities with daily uses or cooldowns, if I recall their mechanics correctly.

Probably be best to take a large amount of mutations that stack a small amount of times each, cause that way when they fuse they gain all the mutations rather than them losing a few because of they reached the limit on how many times their HD allows them to take the mutation.

[Hanuman]

I really like the crown of vermin, it has a lot of interesting potential.

Swarm Form is nice and really helps to add the Vermin flavor requested so long ago.

Sign is delicious, I love macro effect on characters.

There are so many good mutations, I'll have to read it all when I have a bit more time.

[silver spectre]

A question on the Resin mutation: is there something I missed that says how much (weight or volume) 5gp worth is?

[Hanuman]

For parasitism what about having damage taken erode your +20 disguise bonus?

Like, lose a +1 from disguise bonus for every 1 damage you take. Warforged Ancient:
http://theiphonewalls.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Terminator-Face.jpg

Decent optional rule anyway.

[Draken]

A question on the Resin mutation: is there something I missed that says how much (weight or volume) 5gp worth is?

It's an abstraction. D&D uses those a lot, sometimes to silly results. For instance, take crafting a longsword and the cost of iron.

A longsword weights four pounds and costs five gold in raw materials to craft.

Now, four pounds of iron cost four silver. Less than half a gold piece.

So where do the other four gold and six silver go? The leather for the hilt and scabbard?


For parasitism what about having damage taken erode your +20 disguise bonus?

Like, lose a +1 from disguise bonus for every 1 damage you take. Warforged Ancient:
http://theiphonewalls.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Terminator-Face.jpg

Decent optional rule anyway.

It's a decent optional rule, but it would cause problems for the parasite if he needed to extrude his limbs to fight but wanted to keep the disguise.

[Necroticplague]

For the Ancient Ascendency/Perfection, how do you determine whether you gain it or the ascendancy determined by your type? Looking at it as it is, there doesn't seem to be anything stopping your from taking a mismatching Ascendency and Perfection using Ancient. Maybe have it change your type to either:Some new custom type made up for this purpose, or Abomination (since abominations can access the list).

[Draken]

For the Ancient Ascendency/Perfection, how do you determine whether you gain it or the ascendancy determined by your type? Looking at it as it is, there doesn't seem to be anything stopping your from taking a mismatching Ascendency and Perfection using Ancient. Maybe have it change your type to either:Some new custom type made up for this purpose, or Abomination (since abominations can access the list).

?

You don't gain the ascendancy fit for your type. You can pick any ascendancy you want and it changes your type to the ascendancy's.

Your perfection is keyed to the ascendancy you picked.

Aaand I just noticed that there is nothing saying that in perfection, so the Ancient Perfection screws things up a bit. It has been edited to match your ascendancy, not your type.

[Necroticplague]

?

You don't gain the ascendancy fit for your type. You can pick any ascendancy you want and it changes your type to the ascendancy's.

Your perfection is keyed to the ascendancy you picked.

Aaand I just noticed that there is nothing saying that in perfection, so the Ancient Perfection screws things up a bit. It has been edited to match your ascendancy, not your type.

Looking at the text, the Ascendency seems to work the other way by the wording: you get to change your type, then get the appropriate ascendency.I'll quote and highlight the bold phrases.


At 10th level, the evolutionist becomes something… Different from whatever he used to be. The evolutionist may choose to change his creature type to Aberration, Dragon, Fey, Giant, Magical Beast or Monstrous Humanoid. He may chose to remain a humanoid if he is one, but most other creatures agree that humanoids are a step down in the evolutionary ladder. The evolutionist gains the augmented subtype pertaining to his old type.
If they don’t already have it, aberrations, dragons, magical beasts and monstrous humanoids gain Darkvision out to a range of 60 feet (stacking with any other Darkvision not granted by creature types) while giants and fey gain low-light vision. In addition, the evolutionist gains two extra mutations and one benefit from the following list, depending on his creature type:
Note the lack of anything about picking your ascendency, only picking your creature type and (in the next paragraph, cut because not relevant), your age categories.

[Draken]

Looking at the text, the Ascendency seems to work the other way by the wording: you get to change your type, then get the appropriate ascendency.I'll quote and highlight the bold phrases.


Note the lack of anything about picking your ascendency, only picking your creature type and (in the next paragraph, cut because not relevant), your age categories.

Vast Glub.

Mutant Ascendancy Rewritten.

[Shazek]

Symbiosis is really, really strong. Might I suggest removing the line about rolling for initiative for each participant? It makes the power increase quadratic with each character added.

[Draken]

Symbiosis is really, really strong. Might I suggest removing the line about rolling for initiative for each participant? It makes the power increase quadratic with each character added.

Without that the fused entity is pretty much objectively inferior to the separate participants.

It is very potent, I will admit, but requires quite a bit of setup.

[Shazek]

Without that the fused entity is pretty much objectively inferior to the separate participants.

It is very potent, I will admit, but requires quite a bit of setup.

I honestly hadn't noticed that part of the entry when making my character for that cult game until I was mostly done planning. Suddenly realizing I had quadruple normal action economy was a bit of a shock. I guess utilizing Leadership-type effects in character building generally leads to a strong character, but I'm going to be able to perform 84 attacks in a round, at level 9. These are almost all natural weapons, on a character who'll be Huge and have Dire Body. The setup has been a chore, seeing as I've worked for days on the character, but I think you may underestimate the synergy that gets going when you can stack so many mutations and class features onto one character. Perhaps half the number of participants in actions, rounding up? Would still be a very strong ability, but not nearly so ridiculous.

[Draken]

I honestly hadn't noticed that part of the entry when making my character for that cult game until I was mostly done planning. Suddenly realizing I had quadruple normal action economy was a bit of a shock. I guess utilizing Leadership-type effects in character building generally leads to a strong character, but I'm going to be able to perform 84 attacks in a round, at level 9. These are almost all natural weapons, on a character who'll be Huge and have Dire Body. The setup has been a chore, seeing as I've worked for days on the character, but I think you may underestimate the synergy that gets going when you can stack so many mutations and class features onto one character. Perhaps half the number of participants in actions, rounding up? Would still be a very strong ability, but not nearly so ridiculous.

I'm going to have to review that sheet, because I am quite certain that there is something wrong with those numbers.

Still, that is more of a leadership issue than anything. You are cramming the power of more than two characters into one body after all, it is supposed to look crazy.

[Necroticplague]

Without that the fused entity is pretty much objectively inferior to the separate participants.

It is very potent, I will admit, but requires quite a bit of setup.

The entire concept in general sounds like a pain. Either you're limited to one set of action, and it's inferior to both separate, or it gets multiple actions, and it's almost flat-out superior (except maybe for increasing size, and increased need to eat/sleep, and longer time preparing stuff because you can't do it all at once, all of which can be avoided by un-fusing during the downtime).

Ironic note though:it synergizes very well with Symbiotic creatures and Symbionts, who typically have a more limited range of actions that they can take (like throwing scarabs can't do jack when they fuse except provide shards).Symbiosis mutation allows you to turn these limited-use actions into unlimited-use action (you can now use the scarab's action to fight twice as fast).

[RoyVG]

This is the first time I have taken a good look at this class, and all I can say is, great job. I'm currently building one, and looking throught ther Teratomorphs, I noticed something with Size Increase I.

Size Increase I says that you gain a +2 bonus to Strength and the benefits and penalties as indicated in the table. When changing from Medium to Large, does that mean you gain a +4 bonus to Strength in total? And changing from Huge to Gargantuan would give a +6?

Also a few small questions about the Quills mutation. It counts as a natural weapon, so if you increase your size, the damage should increase as well, right? So 1 becomes 1d2, 1d2 becomes 1d3, etc.
Second when combined with Impale, which damage does the impaled victim take, the 1 damage from the attack, or the 1d4 listed when removing Quills?
Third, is the nemy impaled by 1d4 quills or just 1 for damage purposes?
Finally, does the Thorns Mutation in the Plant section also apply to the Quills?

[Draken]

This is the first time I have taken a good look at this class, and all I can say is, great job. I'm currently building one, and looking throught ther Teratomorphs, I noticed something with Size Increase I.

Size Increase I says that you gain a +2 bonus to Strength and the benefits and penalties as indicated in the table. When changing from Medium to Large, does that mean you gain a +4 bonus to Strength in total? And changing from Huge to Gargantuan would give a +6?

That is correct.


Also a few small questions about the Quills mutation. It counts as a natural weapon, so if you increase your size, the damage should increase as well, right? So 1 becomes 1d2, 1d2 becomes 1d3, etc.

Correct again.


Second when combined with Impale, which damage does the impaled victim take, the 1 damage from the attack, or the 1d4 listed when removing Quills?
Third, is the nemy impaled by 1d4 quills or just 1 for damage purposes?

An impaled target is basically touching you every turn and gets hit by 1d4 quills every round.


Finally, does the Thorns Mutation in the Plant section also apply to the Quills?

Yes.

[Shazek]

So, the attack number I tossed out was before I finished calculating the character sheet for the Fused form. It's looking like it will be more or less accurate. (23 attacks per Full Attack with 4 Full Attacks) Now I have some questions about it. Specifically, about mutation caps. Say you have a mutator level of 9 in your fused form, thanks to mutator level capping at HD, and two of the participants together have a total of 14 instances of the Spell-Like Ability Mutation, with no overlap. Since there's a cap of 9 due to the mutator level, does that mean that you lose 5 SLA's when you fuse? If so, how do you determine which ones? Similarly, what if each of your participants have Evolve Talent up to the max allowed? Do you lose feats when you fuse? Also, if you lose the benefits of repeated feats, what about the mutations gained by taking Ancient Mutator or Outsider Mutator or Construct Mutator? Do you lose 1 mutation for each overlap? Lastly, what about Integrated Tools? If you have 12 instances total, do you have to choose 3 to lose while fused?

It makes sense that stacking effects would be capped by HD, to avoid stacking massive bonuses. But parallel effects are still limited by the participants' mutator levels, and capping them for the fused form leads to all kinds of headaches.

EDIT: Oh, right. Forgot to ask: Symbiosis says you get the natural weapons of all your participants and gives rules to determine your size. Would your damage dice on those be determined by your size in your fused form, or by the size of the participant? I assume fused form, but I wasn't sure.

[Draken]

So, the attack number I tossed out was before I finished calculating the character sheet for the Fused form. It's looking like it will be more or less accurate. (23 attacks per Full Attack with 4 Full Attacks) Now I have some questions about it. Specifically, about mutation caps. Say you have a mutator level of 9 in your fused form, thanks to mutator level capping at HD, and two of the participants together have a total of 14 instances of the Spell-Like Ability Mutation, with no overlap. Since there's a cap of 9 due to the mutator level, does that mean that you lose 5 SLA's when you fuse? If so, how do you determine which ones? Similarly, what if each of your participants have Evolve Talent up to the max allowed? Do you lose feats when you fuse? Also, if you lose the benefits of repeated feats, what about the mutations gained by taking Ancient Mutator or Outsider Mutator or Construct Mutator? Do you lose 1 mutation for each overlap? Lastly, what about Integrated Tools? If you have 12 instances total, do you have to choose 3 to lose while fused?

It makes sense that stacking effects would be capped by HD, to avoid stacking massive bonuses. But parallel effects are still limited by the participants' mutator levels, and capping them for the fused form leads to all kinds of headaches.

EDIT: Oh, right. Forgot to ask: Symbiosis says you get the natural weapons of all your participants and gives rules to determine your size. Would your damage dice on those be determined by your size in your fused form, or by the size of the participant? I assume fused form, but I wasn't sure.

How do you even have that full attack routine before fusing, dare I ask?

As for everything else. You would have to chose which integrated tools and spell-like abilities would not be available in the fused state. The damage of your natural weapons would be set by your new size. And I think I will do some rewording in regards to the feats.

[Shazek]

How do you even have that full attack routine before fusing, dare I ask?

As for everything else. You would have to chose which integrated tools and spell-like abilities would not be available in the fused state. The damage of your natural weapons would be set by your new size. And I think I will do some rewording in regards to the feats.

Sorry, the full attack routine isn't before fusing; I just had figured it up before worrying too much about the rest because I was curious. I have 8 arms with 2 attacks each, thanks to Improved Multiweapon Fighting, 4 heads with bite attacks (all racial), 4 tentacles, 2 claws (racial) and a gore. Which adds up to 27.... Not sure what happened there.

What about Evolve Talent? That's the part that is most important to my build. Do I just give up some of those feats? 2 of them are Improved Cohort, which makes this even more complicated, since I could lose my fusion buddies while fused.

[ShadowFireLance]

(If you don't mind me popping in here..)

The Ancient Mutation list is amazing. Pure awesome, I love it. :smalltongue: It fits perfect with my Anathema.

Now, on to the point of this post:
I (Personally) think there should be a little more on the side of bonus feats, because racial feats are hard to come by, and just normal bonus feats make life much better. Just my 2/C.

[Draken]

Sorry, the full attack routine isn't before fusing; I just had figured it up before worrying too much about the rest because I was curious. I have 8 arms with 2 attacks each, thanks to Improved Multiweapon Fighting, 4 heads with bite attacks (all racial), 4 tentacles, 2 claws (racial) and a gore. Which adds up to 27.... Not sure what happened there.

What about Evolve Talent? That's the part that is most important to my build. Do I just give up some of those feats? 2 of them are Improved Cohort, which makes this even more complicated, since I could lose my fusion buddies while fused.

I honestly don't know how you got yourself four heads and I am not sure if I want to know.

Symbiosis was honestly not made with cohort stacking in consideration (It doesn't disregard Karish Broodmother stacking, of course, but those of far less mutations).

Plus, your crazy attack routine can do with an offscreen nerf anyway.


(If you don't mind me popping in here..)

The Ancient Mutation list is amazing. Pure awesome, I love it. :smalltongue: It fits perfect with my Anathema.

Now, on to the point of this post:
I (Personally) think there should be a little more on the side of bonus feats, because racial feats are hard to come by, and just normal bonus feats make life much better. Just my 2/C.

Either way, I guess there isn't really any reason to have Evolve Talent be as scarce as it is, so here goes a small changelog.

Changelog:
Basic Mutations:
- Evolve Talent: Minimum mutator level lowered to 3. Maximum instances changes from 1/6 to 1/4.

[Volthawk]

Sorry, the full attack routine isn't before fusing; I just had figured it up before worrying too much about the rest because I was curious. I have 8 arms with 2 attacks each, thanks to Improved Multiweapon Fighting, 4 heads with bite attacks (all racial), 4 tentacles, 2 claws (racial) and a gore. Which adds up to 27.... Not sure what happened there.

What about Evolve Talent? That's the part that is most important to my build. Do I just give up some of those feats? 2 of them are Improved Cohort, which makes this even more complicated, since I could lose my fusion buddies while fused.

Can we see this build of yours, and this race you're using?

[Shazek]

Certainly, I'd be happy to share the build. I'll post the character sheets after I've cleaned them up a bit and handled Skills. There are a total of 4 individuals involved in the fused form. The first is the main character, Human Evolutionist 9. He has Size Increase 1, Karish Companion, the Leadership Feat, the Dragon Cohort Feat, and 2 instances of Improved Cohort (specifically approved by the DM in this case- otherwise, it's a small power/versatility drop). He has no natural weapons. The Leadership cohort is a human Evolutionist 5/Weaponthane Ascendant 3. He has Multiweapon Fighting and Multidexterity, with the Anomalous Mutation Teratomorhpism. When in fused form, he'll have sufficient BAB to turn that into an instance of Evolve Talent for Improved Multiweapon Fighting. He also has no natural weapons, but he does have Extra Arms twice. The Dragon Cohort is a White Wyrmling. It has LA 2/Dragon Hit Dice 3/ Evolutionist 6. It has a natural bite and two claws, it took the tentacles mutation twice and the gore mutation once, giving it a total of 8 natural attacks. It also has rend x3 and rake. Its teratomorphisms are Dire Body and Plating. The last member of the fusion is a Karish Companion. The base creature is a Dark Multiheaded (Pyro) Giant Ant Soldier. I added 2 heads with Multiheaded, bringing it to 6 HD. Neither of those templates changes its type from vermin, so it's still eligible to be a companion. Since the Karish Template gave it feats, I took the Ancient, Undead, and Outsider Mutator feats, giving it 3 mutations for use in Symbiosis.

The other mutations for the character and cohorts are rather immaterial as far as the basic build goes- I went with skillmonkey stuff and utility SLA's, along with some defensive boosts. I'd say you first start reaping benefits at level 6, when you get leadership, then get periodic major power boosts as you level up further. 8 gets the Karish 6 HD, 9 gets the Dragon, 11 gets you into High Evolutionary, letting you use anyone in your Fusion, more or less, and then every odd level is a potential new member. Obviously, using it in this fashion is a bookkeeping nightmare, but it's been interesting building this character to level 9.

And honestly, a massive natural attack routine can be done by any old Totemist/Evolutionist, and the utility power this character has could be handled by a Cohort for the most part. It's being able to not only get both in one shell but have it all synergize off each other and then use the best aspects several times as often that makes it a little broken. The dragon cohort, for example, is more or less useless in combat alone. It may have the weapons, but with a size so small they do next to no damage. Scale it up 4 or 5 size categories and give a huge strength, and it ends up bringing a lot to the table that it never really had. The main character is more of a face than anything else, but he has little combat capability and can't skillmonkey well without the others. The regular Cohort is closest to being strong on his own, but his defenses are terrible. And the Karish has no chance against the encounters I'd expect a level 9 to face. Yet, put them all together, and it can do anything really well. 4x a round.

[Volthawk]

So what you're saying is if you stack cohorts, stack templates onto the aforementioned cohorts (particularly abusing the fact that Karish just specifies HD) and then get DM permission to cheese it further, then you get...lots of attacks and a good bit of toughness? To be honest, with that level of effort, things could be far, far worse.

[Draken]

Your Karish companion can't take part in the fused entity. It can only participate in a fusion with up to three other participants.

Also, you should probably check with LordChaos if that 11th level wyrmling is even allowed.

Also, your giant ant is medium-sized, so it can only receive up to 1 instance of multiheaded, which raises its HD to 4, leaving only two other HD that you can use to advance it before you hit the cap.

[Shazek]

The Karish doesn't need the templates to work here; I could drop both and lose a grand total of a subtype, a breath weapon, and two bites. I just thought it was a neat idea. DM permission to cheese it further... I assume you mean allowing Improved Cohort twice? Again, losing 1 level makes very little difference. Even if those two specific issues are disallowed, the character can still outfight a CoDzilla and do comparable damage to an Ubercharger without needing to charge, and ends up being a better face than a bard, a better sneak than a wizard, and having the action economy of an entire party. Having 2 cohort feats and a class feature like an Animal Companion is well within the reach of, say, a druid. This character could likely kill an appropriate level optimized Druid, both his cohorts, and his animal companion, convince his friends and family it was a multiple suicide, then get the druid's party to go on a grand quest to defeat the dark magic imprisoning the druid's soul that ultimately benefits him. I can think of no other ECL 9 character, with or without cohorts, that could do all of that without resorting to TO shenanigans like getting 9th level spells at that level.


Your Karish companion can't take part in the fused entity. It can only participate in a fusion with up to three other participants.

Also, you should probably check with LordChaos if that 11th level wyrmling is even allowed.

There are only 3 other participants- the character, the dragon, the cohort. I will ask LordChaos about that. I had assumed that it would be fine, being one of the tamer things possible with Dragon Cohort, (Infinite Cohort Chain, anyone?) but you make a fair point.

[Draken]

The Karish doesn't need the templates to work here; I could drop both and lose a grand total of a subtype, a breath weapon, and two bites. I just thought it was a neat idea. DM permission to cheese it further... I assume you mean allowing Improved Cohort twice? Again, losing 1 level makes very little difference. Even if those two specific issues are disallowed, the character can still outfight a CoDzilla and do comparable damage to an Ubercharger without needing to charge, and ends up being a better face than a bard, a better sneak than a wizard, and having the action economy of an entire party. Having 2 cohort feats and a class feature like an Animal Companion is well within the reach of, say, a druid. This character could likely kill an appropriate level optimized Druid, both his cohorts, and his animal companion, convince his friends and family it was a multiple suicide, then get the druid's party to go on a grand quest to defeat the dark magic imprisoning the druid's soul that ultimately benefits him. I can think of no other ECL 9 character, with or without cohorts, that could do all of that without resorting to TO shenanigans like getting 9th level spells at that level.



There are only 3 other participants- the character, the dragon, the cohort. I will ask LordChaos about that. I had assumed that it would be fine, being one of the tamer things possible with Dragon Cohort, (Infinite Cohort Chain, anyone?) but you make a fair point.

Ah, fair. Your four-headed ant is still illegal in pretty much every conceivable way.

[Shazek]

Ah, fair. Your four-headed ant is still illegal in pretty much every conceivable way.

3 headed, actually. While I agree it's cheesy and abusive of RAW (and something I don't think I'll use in the game), may I ask how it's illegal? I didn't see any rules prohibiting templates, and it is a vermin with less than 3/4 my HD.

[Draken]

3 headed, actually. While I agree it's cheesy and abusive of RAW (and something I don't think I'll use in the game), may I ask how it's illegal? I didn't see any rules prohibiting templates, and it is a vermin with less than 3/4 my HD.

Each head adds 2 HD. For a total of 8 HD if it is a worker or soldier and 10 if it is a queen.

And it can only receive three extra heads if it is a queen. So there you have the illegality. You are capped at 6 HD companions (3/4 of your mutator level, same as cleric BAB).

[Shazek]

Each head adds 2 HD. For a total of 8 HD if it is a worker or soldier and 10 if it is a queen.

And it can only receive three extra heads if it is a queen. So there you have the illegality. You are capped at 6 HD companions (3/4 of your mutator level, same as cleric BAB).


(Snipped for Length)The base creature is a Dark Multiheaded (Pyro) Giant Ant Soldier. I added 2 heads with Multiheaded, bringing it to 6 HD. Neither of those templates changes its type from vermin, so it's still eligible to be a companion. Since the Karish Template gave it feats, I took the Ancient, Undead, and Outsider Mutator feats, giving it 3 mutations for use in Symbiosis. (Snipped for Length)

I only added 2 heads, for a total of 6HD on a soldier. You may have been thinking of the total of 4 bite attacks, thanks to the one the dragon has as a racial.

[Draken]

I only added 2 heads, for a total of 6HD on a soldier. You may have been thinking of the total of 4 bite attacks, thanks to the one the dragon has as a racial.

Still illegal. Medium creatures like the giant ant soldier can only receive multiheaded once, and the soldier only becomes large at 5 HD.

[Shazek]

Still illegal. Medium creatures like the giant ant soldier can only receive multiheaded once, and the soldier only becomes large at 5 HD.

Ah, thank you. I was mistakenly using the Web Enhancement Multiheaded, not the Savage Species, which doesn't seem to have that restriction. In my search for a replacement, I found something even better! I think I'll use a Sword Spider instead.

[Draken]

But I think I will return Symbiosis to 1/4 as it was originally intended. The chinks are starting to show.

Edit: Done.

[Shazek]

Yes! I succeeded in getting myself nerfed! Wait.....

[Mithril Leaf]

Yes! I succeeded in getting myself nerfed! Wait.....

I've done it too Shazek, don't worry! Just release a Homebrew Evolutionist PrC that lets you do what you wanted to do before the nerfing took place. Wait, forget I said that...

[Draken]

Thanks to Shazek for stress-testing Symbiosis. I couldn't properly balance this thing without you!

Now go rebuild your whole cast of characters, and make me nerf things. :smallamused:

Changelog:
Ancient Mutations
- Symbiosis
----- All participants must belong to the same creature type now.
----- Ability score calculation changed.

[Shazek]

How did you change the ability score calculations? I don't see anything obviously different.

[Draken]

How did you change the ability score calculations? I don't see anything obviously different.

Bonuses from mutations and teratomorphisms are added at to the base scores for calculation, not added later along with named bonuses.

[RoyVG]

I've been looking at the Budding Creation and the Living Creation mutations and I have some trouble with using them.

With Budding Creation you can create "stuff" as the Minor Creation spell, and with Living Creation you can animate them as Animated Objects of approriate size, again as the spell. The amount of matter that you can create with Budding (Minor) Creation is expressed in cubic feet per level. I find it pretty difficult to calculate the size of an Animated Object, based on the amount of cubic feet of materials I can create. Could you help me out with this?

[Draken]

I've been looking at the Budding Creation and the Living Creation mutations and I have some trouble with using them.

With Budding Creation you can create "stuff" as the Minor Creation spell, and with Living Creation you can animate them as Animated Objects of approriate size, again as the spell. The amount of matter that you can create with Budding (Minor) Creation is expressed in cubic feet per level. I find it pretty difficult to calculate the size of an Animated Object, based on the amount of cubic feet of materials I can create. Could you help me out with this?

Just consider the maximum object size you can create as the area of the animated object you want to make and define its size category accordingly.

[Lord Raziere]

I have two questions about damage reduction:

if I take Damage Reduction then take Material Damage Reduction, does that mean my damage reduction is vulnerable to both magic AND the material, or does it just mean the material replaces the magic?

furthermore, when I take Material Damage Reduction, does it increase my damage reduction by 3 or not?

because I'm confused as to how its supposed to work, and being vulnerable to two things doesn't seem like an upgrade...

[Draken]

I have two questions about damage reduction:

if I take Damage Reduction then take Material Damage Reduction, does that mean my damage reduction is vulnerable to both magic AND the material, or does it just mean the material replaces the magic?

furthermore, when I take Material Damage Reduction, does it increase my damage reduction by 3 or not?

because I'm confused as to how its supposed to work, and being vulnerable to two things doesn't seem like an upgrade...

Material Damage Reduction upgrades any damage reduction you have, so that beating it requires [Whatever was already needed] and [Chosen Material].

[Selinia]

One of the most iconic monster archetypes is that of the truly titanic creature. The Kaiju, the Giant Robot, the Beast of the Apocalypse. And yet, using the basic mutations, actually playing such a creature often devolves into spamming Crush and stacking a ton of passive effects. So here's a little something for everyone who gets a kick out of holding the world in the palm of their hand - and smashing it to pieces.

The Worldshaker
"SKREEEEEOOOONK!"
-Gojila, a Worldshaker

Evolutionists differ wildly in their perceptions of the perfect form. One might seek to stand with the eternal, unyielding vigilance of a mighty oak, while another might seek to harness the simmering elemental fury of a volcano. Some of these pursuits are highly esoteric in nature, perfecting fine details of body and mind in pursuit of a subtle, exquisitely-crafted ideal.

Some are not.

A worldshaker cares nothing for subtlety, or efficiency, or a quiet road to enlightened ascension. Hers is the path of the unchained beast - of the ravenous Purple Worm, the rampaging dragon, and the endless fury of the Tarrasque itself. She crushes cities underfoot, and tears out mountains by their roots - and woe to those would would stand in her way.

Prerequisites:
Special: Large size or larger
Special: Must possess a natural armor bonus of at least +6, fast healing of at least 1, spell resistance of at least 20, and some quantity of damage reduction
Special: Must possess the Mutant Ascendancy class feature

HD: d8
{table=head]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Special
1 | +0 | +0 | +0 | +0 | Mutations, Size Increase
2 | +1 | +0 | +0 | +0 | Mutations, Terrible Evolution
3 | +1 | +1 | +1 | +1 | Mutations
4 | +2 | +1 | +1 | +1 | Mutations, Terrible Evolution
5 | +2 | +1 | +1 | +1 | Mutations, Size Increase
6 | +3 | +2 | +2 | +2 | Mutations, Terrible Evolution
7 | +3 | +2 | +2 | +2 | Mutations
8 | +4 | +2 | +2 | +2 | Mutations, Terrible Evolution
9 | +4 | +3 | +3 | +3 | Mutations, Size Increase
10 | +5 | +3 | +3 | +3 | Mutations, Worldshaker Perfection[/table]

Class Skills (2 + Int Modifier): The worldshaker can chose the class skills of any one of her base classes to be her class skills for this class, this choice cannot be changed.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A worldshaker gains no proficiency with any weapon or armor.

Mutations: The worldshaker gains three mutations at 2nd, 4th, 6th, and 8th levels, and four mutations at each other level.

Size Increase (Ex): At 1st level, and again at 5th and 9th level, the worldshaker’s size category increases by one, to a maximum size of Colossal. She gains a +2 size bonus to strength, gains a size modifier to attack rolls, armor class, grapple checks and hide checks and her reach changes accordingly to her new size. Furthermore, the evolutionist gains additional bonuses to her strength and natural armor according to her new size, as seen on the following table:

{table=head]Former Size|New Size| Str Adjustment| NA adjustment
Fine| Diminutive| +2| +1
Diminutive| Tiny| +2| +1
Tiny| Small| +2| +1
Small| Medium| +2| +1
Medium| Large| +2| +1
Large| Huge| +2| +1
Huge| Gargantuan| +4| +2
Gargantuan| Colossal| +8| +4[/table]

These increases in size, and their accompanying bonuses, do not stack with those granted by the Size Increase II or Size Increase III teratomorphisms.

Terrible Evolution: Shaping themselves in emulation of the fiercest and most terrible of all monsters, the worldshaker gradually adopts a form every bit as unique and terrible as that of those she emulates. Unless otherwise noted, these abilities are extraordinary in nature. At 2nd level, and again at 4th, 6th, and 8th levels, the worldshaker gains one of the following abilities:

Belly of the Beast: The worldshaker must possess the Swallow Whole mutation to select this ability. When the tarrasque feasts, it dines upon armies. Nations are its table, and the sticks and stones of mortals are nothing more than fleeting distractions from the sating of its eternal hunger. As a full-round action, the worldshaker may enter a feeding frenzy, making a bite attack and swallow whole attempt against any number of creatures within reach of her bite natural weapon. If a creature is too large to swallow whole, she may still make a bite attack against it. Additionally, the worldshaker’s gizzard may hold a number of additional creatures of the largest size it could normally hold (or an equivalent number of smaller creatures) equal to one half her class level. Lastly, the worldshaker’s gizzard’s AC increases to [10 + the worldshaker’s natural armor], gains the benefit of any damage reduction or hardness she may possess, and may sustain an additional [2 * mutator level] points of damage before being torn open.

Bloody Resurgence: Lesser creatures strike against the worldshaker in all their pathetic excuse for fury, hoping to bring her low beneath a mountain of corpses. But she cares not, for every blow against her does naught but whet her appetite for further slaughter. Whenever the worldshaker’s hit point total is less than 75% of her maximum hit point value, any extraordinary fast healing she may possess is doubled. If her health is below 50% of its maximum value, such fast healing is tripled, rather than doubled. If her health is below 25% of its maximum value, it is quadrupled, rather than doubled. If the worldshaker possesses a negative hit point total, any such fast healing is multiplied by five, rather than doubled. Fast healing from any supernatural source, such as that resulting from spell effects or magical items, is unaffected by this this ability. Additionally, each of the worldshaker's class levels counts as two mutator levels for the purpose of determining how many times she can take the Fast Healing mutation. She does not gain this benefit of an increased mutator level for any other purpose.

Capricious Embrace: What are the lesser creatures of the world to a being of such power and majesty as the worldshaker, if not toys to be battered and broken for her amusement? If the worldshaker possesses the Rock Throwing mutation, she may use a grappled creature at least two size categories smaller than her as a viable projectile, dealing appropriate damage to both the throw’s target and the impromptu missile. If the worldshaker possesses the Mutilate mutation, she may make a Mutilate attempt as a swift action against any creature she has in a grapple, without first needing to connect with a bite attack. If the worldshaker possesses the Slime mutation, any creature she has in a grapple must hold its breath or begin drowning in the substance. If the worldshaker possesses the Web mutation, she may, as a full-round action, expend a daily use of her web ability to cocoon a creature she has in a grapple with sticky webbing. This cocoon paralyzes the target, preventing movement or physical action. A creature may burst this cocoon with a strength check, or attempt to worm out of it with an escape artist check, each method functioning identically to an escape from a thrown Web (against the same DCs). If the worldshaker possesses the Swallow Whole ability, she may use a swift action to toss a creature she has in a grapple into her gizzard, swallowing it without need for further grapple attempts. Whenever the worldshaker makes use of a breath weapon, any creature she has in a grapple is automatically considered to be within the area of effect, and does not receive a reflex save for half damage.

Dreadful Omen: The worldshaker must possess the Frightful Presence mutation to select this ability. As a full-round action, the worldshaker may unleash a terrifying omen of her arrival. Whatever form this omen takes – an earth-shattering roar, a rain of blood, or a comet burning with sickly radiance, it is witnessed by all creatures within a radius of one mile. Any creature possessing [worldshaker’s HD – 4] or fewer dice that witnesses the omen must make a will saving throw against a DC equal to the DC of the worldshaker’s frightful presence. Creatures that fail this saving throw are frightened for ten minutes, until they are more than a mile from the worldshaker, or until they are successfully rallied. Rallying a group of frightened creatures is a [Charisma + Commander Rating] check against a DC of 20 (to return them to the shaken condition) or 25 (to return them to normal). Full details on the rally action may be found in the Heroes of Battle supplement. Regardless of its success or failure in saving against this effect, any creature subjected to a worldshaker’s Dreadful Omen gains immunity to further applications of the ability for 24 hours. This is a supernatural ability.

Glorious Monolith: To most, the footfalls of a worldshaker are the harbinger of a terrible calamity – but to those under her protection, they signal the arrival of an ally mighty beyond all others. Any ally who can see the worldshaker gains a +2 bonus to saves against fear effects for every size category above medium she is. Additionally, the worldshaker gains a size bonus to Bluff and Diplomacy equal to her size bonus to Intimidate, as her words ring with a strength and power that lesser creatures cannot ignore. Further, if the worldshaker possesses a Leadership score, it is increased by one for every size category above medium she is. Lastly, if the worldshaker possesses a commander rating, increase it by one for every two size categories above medium she is. Full details on commander rating may be found in the Heroes of Battle supplement.

Imperious Grip: A worldshaker’s concerns are too grand to be stymied by lesser creatures, and she may crush a mortal in her hands with no more thought or difficulty than a child might give to squashing an ant. As a swift action, the worldshaker may attempt to initiate a grapple against a creature within reach using a natural weapon with which she possesses Improved Grab. She must connect with a melee touch attack as normal to initiate this grapple, which otherwise resolves itself identically to any other Improved Grab attempt. Further, the worldshaker may reduce the usual -20 penalty to grapple attempts made with a single natural weapon by 4 for every size category larger than her grapple target she is.

Living Avalanche: The worldshaker must possess a Tail natural weapon and the Trample mutation to select this ability. Mortals do not fight an avalanche. They do not seek to take up arms against a hurricane. And when the worldshaker moves, it is as an unstoppable cascade of whirling, furious force. Whenever the worldshaker uses a move action to move, she may make a single tail attack at her full attack bonus against each enemy to come within reach of her tail at any point during the movement. She may not make more than one attack against any given creature with a single move, and she makes only a single attack roll, comparing it to the AC of each of her targets.

Lord of the Deeps: Though the common mortal, thinking of monsters, will no doubt first picture the dire beasts that rule the earth and sky, there are more terrible entities still. They sleep beneath the waves in the long dark of the ocean floor, and when they rouse themselves, a tide of ruin washes over the world. The worldshaker exudes an aura with a radius of [100 * class level] feet, which she may suppress or resume manifesting as a swift action. Creatures within this aura must make a will save with a DC equal to [10 + 1/2 mutator level + Cha modifier], or lose any swim speed they may possess. Success grants immunity to this effect for 24 hours. Further, any creatures swimming within this aura, regardless of whether they succeed on the previous saving throw, are inexorably either drawn 30’ towards the worldshaker or pushed 30’ away from her at the beginning of each of her turns. The worldshaker chooses which direction she wishes this ‘current’ to flow when she manifests her aura, and may reverse its direction as a swift action. Creatures within the radius of her aura attempting to swim against this current treat their movement as being through difficult terrain. Creatures under the influence of this aura are fully aware of its effects (though not necessarily its origin). This is a supernatural ability.

Meteoric Blow: Lesser creatures may bite and claw at one another in paltry battle, but when a worldshaker unleashes their assault, the world itself trembles. Whenever the worldshaker makes a successful attack with a natural weapon, she may choose to strike with such force as to bury those nearby in a cloud of rubble and debris. If she does so, creatures within a 5’ radius of the target (other than the worldshaker herself) take damage equal to half the damage dealt by the triggering attack. A successful reflex save against a DC equal to [10 + 1/2 mutator level + Str modifier] negates this damage. For every two size categories the worldshaker is above large, the radius of this effect increases by an additional 5’. If the worldshaker possesses the Bash mutation, she may use this ability in conjunction with a Bash attack, just as if it were a natural weapon.

Mountain Toss: The worldshaker must possess the Rock Throwing mutation to select this ability. As a full-round action, the worldshaker may hurl an enormous slab, bundle, or mound of stone (or other suitably heavy substance). This attack possesses a range increment equal to that of the worldshaker’s rock throwing ability, and targets a 5’ radius burst rather than a single target. Creatures within the target area may attempt a reflex saving throw with a DC equal to [10 + 1/2 mutator level + Str modifier]. On a failed save, these creatures take damage equal to the worldshaker’s slam damage and are knocked prone. A successful save halves this damage, and allows a creature to avoid falling prone. This special attack benefits from any effects that would modify the worldshaker’s slam attacks, as well as any effects that would benefit attacks with thrown weapons. For every size category the worldshaker is above large, the radius of the target area increases by 5’. Additionally, the range increment of the worldshaker’s rock throwing ability increases by an additional 30’ for every size category above medium she is.

Primordial Idol: Before the coming of shining priests and their distant, ethereal gods, mortals paid tribute unto the great beasts above all others. The ancient world was a place of capricious titans, feasting on the prayers born from awe and terror – and as the worldshaker’s power grows, she knows well that such an age will one day come again. The worldshaker is able to hear prayers directed to her, regardless of distance or planar boundaries. Additionally, by performing a ritual requiring one hour, at least [Worldshaker’s HD * 5] HD worth of participants (none of whom may be more than 10’ from any other participant), and a fragment of the worldshaker’s physical body (which may be as small as a single scale or vial of blood) worshippers of the worldshaker may attempt to summon her. She is intuitively aware of the location to which she would be summoned, and may accept or decline the summons as she sees fit. If the worldshaker accepts the summons of her followers, she is instantly transported to a location of her choosing within 100’ of any member of the summoning circle. The powerful influx of devotion generated by the process instantly restores the worldshaker to full health upon a successful summoning. If the worldshaker is dead when the ritual is performed, a successful summons will restore her to life without consequence. This is a supernatural effect.

Ruinous Wake: The worldshaker must possess the Trample mutation to select this ability. Whenever the worldshaker moves on land, she may choose to rip the very earth asunder with the force of her footsteps, converting any terrain in spaces she moves through into difficult terrain until such time as it is repaired. This damage to terrain inflicted by this ability only functions if the worldshaker is actually touching the ground – she cannot apply it while moving with a fly or swim speed. If she uses this ability while moving via a burrow speed, only the interior of her own tunnel is converted into difficult terrain. If she possesses the Crush mutation, she may apply the effects of this ability to the squares in which she lands when executing a crush attack. If she possesses the Bash mutation, she may apply this effect to the squares occupied by the target of a bash attack, regardless of whether the attack hits or misses. The worldshaker is not impeded by difficult terrain created through this ability.

Sovereign Beast: Just as lumps of mud and stone are drawn to orbit the resplendent glory of the sun, a worldshaker’s former kin are inexorably drawn to her transcendent might. The worldshaker gains the ability to rebuke or command creatures of their both their original creature type and that specified by her mutant apotheosis (if applicable), as an evil cleric rebukes or commands undead. She may treat her mutator level as her cleric level for this purpose. The worldshaker may use this ability as often as she likes, but must wait one minute between uses to gather her aura of terror anew. This is a supernatural ability.

Swordbreaker: The King of Beasts does not suffer the petty flailing of the fools that stand in its way. Those who would challenge it without might to match its own are simply crushed and forgotten, accomplishing nothing. Whenever the worldshaker takes hit point damage from any source that is equal to or less than [her mutator level * 2] after the application of energy resistance, damage reduction, and hardness, that damage is entirely negated. Any other effects carried by the negated damage source, such as poison, or the secondary effects of a spell or maneuver, resolve as usual. Additionally, when a non-magical melee weapon’s damage is negated in this manner, that weapon immediately breaks as if it had been reduced to 0 HP by a successful sunder attempt.

Tempestuous Utterance: The voice of a worldshaker is thunder. Her breath is a hurricane, and the lesser creatures of the world can do naught but tremble and fall at her meekest of roars. As a standard action, the worldshaker may exhale a cone of forceful wind. This functions as if the worldshaker had made a trip attempt against every target within a 30’ cone. Each target successfully tripped by this ability is swept off their feet by the worldshaker’s breath, allowing her to make a bull rush attempt against them, pushing them an appropriate distance if she is successful. The worldshaker does not need to connect with a touch attack for either of the combat maneuvers entailed in this ability, nor does she need to move to execute a bull rush. Structures within this cone are put under pressures equivalent to those of a hurricane-force wind, which may damage or destroy some. For every size category she is above medium, the length of the cone increases by 30’. Once the worldshaker uses this effect, she must wait for five rounds before she can use it again. If the worldshaker possesses a breath weapon, she may apply any effect she could apply to her breath weapon to this ability. Furthermore, she may choose to inflict the blowback imparted by this ability as part of a normal breath weapon, though she must still abide by the five-round recharge time for a Tempestuous Utterance.

Titan’s Mantle: The worldshaker must possess the Grove mutation to select this ability. Rather than establish her grove in a fixed location, the worldshaker may choose to carry it with her. If she chooses this option, her grove does not possess a radius of effect. Instead, any objects the worldshaker carries, and any creatures riding her, are considered to be within the boundaries of her grove. Additionally, while carrying her grove, if the worldshaker possesses the Roots teratomorphism, an area with a radius of [5 + 5 per size category she is above large] feet centered on the worldshaker is considered to be within the limits of her grove so long as she is rooted. Manifesting a carried grove requires one hour of concentration, and dismisses any previously existing grove just as creating an ordinary grove would.

Unstoppable Force: The worldshaker must possess the Trample mutation to select this ability. Whenever the worldshaker attempts to move through some physical obstacle, including walls, doors, ceilings, or even difficult terrain that could conceivably be destroyed, she may deal damage equal to her Slam damage (including any anti-object modifiers from Smash) to the offending object. If this would destroy the object, the worldshaker may continue her movement unimpeded. If she fails to destroy the obstruction, it continues to impede her as normal (though it remains vulnerable to further attempts).

Worldshaker Perfection (Ex): The ants no doubt have many names for you. Titan. Colossus. Behemoth. Let them scribble such epithets as they wish - you have no need of their shrill heralds and musty tomes. The earth shudders with your every footfall, and your shadow darkens the sky. Sages have no words to describe one such as yourself - some would no doubt claim your very existence to be an impossibility. But exist you do, and your power is beyond reproach.

At 10th level, a worldshaker increases in size once more, surpassing the limits of the merely ‘colossal’ to become a category unto herself. For all purposes related to size, and any modifiers which scale linearly with size category (such as grapple, intimidate, or hide modifies) she is considered to be one size category larger than colossal. In addition, her facing and reach each increase by 10’ (for a total of a 40’ facing). Her size penalty to attack rolls and AC increases by 6 (for a final penalty of -14). Her Natural Armor increases by +6. Lastly, her Strength increases by +12, and her Constitution increases by +6.

[Huey Nomure]

This class is wonderful. I hereby praise Draken and anyone who brewed PrCs or helped in any way this project :smallsmile:
I'd like to use this material in the D&D 3.5 adaptation of the Ravnica (MtG) world, in particular for the creation of Simic test subjects; that would turn the fluff of the class almost upside-down, though, with the evolution seen as something that can be inflicted.

A little clarification: in the Quills Ex-Mutation entry, each quill must be treated separately for the resolution of Reflex saves? The determinative article ("the quill") addressing a potential bunch of objects slightly confounds me...

[Draken]

This class is wonderful. I hereby praise Draken and anyone who brewed PrCs or helped in any way this project :smallsmile:
I'd like to use this material in the D&D 3.5 adaptation of the Ravnica (MtG) world, in particular for the creation of Simic test subjects; that would turn the fluff of the class almost upside-down, though, with the evolution seen as something that can be inflicted.

A little clarification: in the Quills Ex-Mutation entry, each quill must be treated separately for the resolution of Reflex saves? The determinative article ("the quill") addressing a potential bunch of objects slightly confounds me...

That is an option for players and DMs. If you want, you can roll a save for each quill. If you want to save time, you can roll one save for all quills in any one strike.

And feel free to use the class for the adaptation, even with changed fluff! Just link back to the original (which you probably will, because this thing is colossal and copying everything would be crazy).

[Huey Nomure]

That is an option for players and DMs. If you want, (which you probably will, because this thing is colossal and copying everything would be crazy).
Erm, can you believe that I'm going to translate the whole base class, including new feats? Some of my players have problems understanding the English technical wording (or English as a whole), so...
I make sure they know that the material I use is not my original work, and I'll be happy to hand them this link if they're interested in the original material.

[Theroc]

I'm not entirely sure I understand the karish Teratomorphs... is the Evolutionist creating an entirely new creature, or giving the template to an existing vermin/ooze?

[Draken]

I'm not entirely sure I understand the karish Teratomorphs... is the Evolutionist creating an entirely new creature, or giving the template to an existing vermin/ooze?

He is creating an entirely new creature.

[Theroc]

That makes it relatively like the Progenitor PrC, only much more limited in scope. Neat.

[Theroc]

Another random question, which is really most likely up to the DM. When the progenitor spawns a new species... how do they determine their base racial abilities? Or is that what the evolutionist mutations cover? As in, the evolutionist levels are the template one uses to endow their new race?

I ask because I'm playing an Evolutionist in a campaign and creating a new species for a future campaign set in that world is a goal of mine.

[Draken]

Another random question, which is really most likely up to the DM. When the progenitor spawns a new species... how do they determine their base racial abilities? Or is that what the evolutionist mutations cover? As in, the evolutionist levels are the template one uses to endow their new race?

I ask because I'm playing an Evolutionist in a campaign and creating a new species for a future campaign set in that world is a goal of mine.

Covered by mutations.

[thethird]

This class is really well thought of and seems like a really fun thing to play, it also inspires me on creating new things. One concern I have is the power of this in gestalt, it might be too high, when combined with classes with better progressions, but that is a minor nitpick and hard to solve.

One question though, does Symbiosis work with creatures of the same augmented subtype? For example if an evolutionist evolved into a fey and another evolved into an aberration but both where at some point humans would they be able to form a symbiosis?

Also, the evolution system is really cool, would it be okay if I replicate it to create other base classes?

[Draken]

This class is really well thought of and seems like a really fun thing to play, it also inspires me on creating new things. One concern I have is the power of this in gestalt, it might be too high, when combined with classes with better progressions, but that is a minor nitpick and hard to solve.

One question though, does Symbiosis work with creatures of the same augmented subtype? For example if an evolutionist evolved into a fey and another evolved into an aberration but both where at some point humans would they be able to form a symbiosis?

Also, the evolution system is really cool, would it be okay if I replicate it to create other base classes?

It is actually called the Mutation system. And I am working on two more base classes with it now. One with very few mutations that can change more or less freely and the Genemancer, who has a book of mutations (a Genetic Codex). Just to avoid future overlap.

As for Gestalt, I know full well the potential issues. But good progression classes are a small concern. The real 'problem' is that more than anything, Evolutionist can shore any disadvantage of the class it is combined with without adding much in the way of ability score requirements (unless the other side is wisdom based). The problem is more that it is pretty much always the best option for one side of a gestalt.

[thethird]

I was thinking of some sort of Gearlord, infusing gears with elementals from the different planes to do the heavy lifting. In the sense it won't evolve itself but its equipment, and although it would partially draw from the construct and elemental lists it will probably need some more things.

[Theroc]

Question on crown of Vermin

Can it be... disabled by the evolutionist? Or do they have to beat themselves up to turn it off?

[Lateral]

So, I was thinking of giving some monsters evolutions, to change things up a bit. What do you guys think a reasonable CR adjustment would be for giving a monster, say, one mutation/HD at a mutator level of 1/2HD? Two mutations/HD at full mutator level?

[Draken]

So, I was thinking of giving some monsters evolutions, to change things up a bit. What do you guys think a reasonable CR adjustment would be for giving a monster, say, one mutation/HD at a mutator level of 1/2HD? Two mutations/HD at full mutator level?

Check the rules for mutator level. If you have levels in any class that grants mutations, any racial HD you have also gives full mutator level.

Anyway. You probably shouldn't probably treat it as the Half-X templates. For 1 mutation/RHD go with: +1 for 1-5HD, +2 for 6-10 HD and +3 for 11+HD. 2 mutations/RHD, raise these CR increases by +1 per tier.

Do not add mutations for class levels. That is what evolutionist levels are about.

------

Crown of Vermin, as it stands, cannot be deactivated. It is always on.

[inuyasha]

For 1 mutation/RHD go with: +1 for 1-5HD, +2 for 6-10 HD and +3 for 11+HD. 2 mutations/RHD, raise these CR increases by +1 per tier.

Im so gonna use this, thanks

[Lord Raziere]

Material Damage Reduction upgrades any damage reduction you have, so that beating it requires [Whatever was already needed] and [Chosen Material].

so…

they would need BOTH magic and silver to hurt me? as in, it makes the requirements to over come it more complex?

hrm, that actually makes sense. I thought it was an "OR" thing.

[Draken]

so…

they would need BOTH magic and silver to hurt me? as in, it makes the requirements to over come it more complex?

hrm, that actually makes sense. I thought it was an "OR" thing.

I like to think I am not one of those clueless designers who actually hands out an option that makes you actively weaker while taking up space in your sheet.

[ShadowFireLance]

Hehe, Going to use this in a 20th level getsalt with ozodrin, horror themed, this is going to be fun. :smalltongue: The Anathemic abilities made everything awesome.

[Lateral]

By the way, I should probably mention that, at this point, I've played three evolutionists, with another on the way. Granted, only one of those is in a campaign that's currently still alive, and the other two previous ones were both in gestalt and MASSIVELY overpowered. (The new one's also in gestalt, but I'm pretty sure there's no possibility of this one being ridiculously powerful, given the support nature of the character.)

[Draken]

By the way, I should probably mention that, at this point, I've played three evolutionists, with another on the way. Granted, only one of those is in a campaign that's currently still alive, and the other two previous ones were both in gestalt and MASSIVELY overpowered. (The new one's also in gestalt, but I'm pretty sure there's no possibility of this one being ridiculously powerful, given the support nature of the character.)

Evolutionist does weird things in gestalt. I am fully aware of this.

Care to share the builds and some anecdotes?

[Kapskaen]

I absolutely love this class. I recently finished running some players through an epic campaign (or more accurately, the epic phase of a campaign that started at level 1 some two years ago, but anyway) and a number of my encounters were made more interesting by adding a few levels of Evolutionist to the mix, but two encounters especially stand out for me, both of which were encountered early on.

The first was a Plant pure Evolutionist 26, who had maximised BAB, saves, and HP, before taking 4 2d6 damage tentacles with 20ft reach, poisonous thorns, improved grab, constrict, DR and ER. For amusement's sake, I added Spores, Solar Burst and Solar Blast. Then, taking Epic Extra Teratomorphism twice, it had Roots, Solar Power III, Offensive Roots, Mobile Roots, Regrowth, and Dire Body. It was only when I attacked them with 12 tentacle attacks and a beam made of light that it occurred to me that I'd accidentally made Venusaur. If only there'd been a way to replicate razor leaf...

The second one had 20 levels of Evolutionist, 1 Fighter (the jiriku remix version that gains Barbarian abilities), and 5 Warshaper. It was originally a Shifter that took the Giant perfection, along with 3 size increase teratomorphs and dire body. Slam, bash, crush, maul, I absolutely pumped everything into Slam damage. I also gave it a tail, rock throwing and a breath weapon just to make a proper Oozaru. What surprised me, however, was when it managed to utterly kill one of my players with a pair of 12d6, Strength 60 slam attacks (there may have been a critical in there, I don't remember now). Of course, being high levels, him being dead didn't stick, but it sure gave the players a fright.

[EdroGrimshell]

Resin [Extraordinaire]
Prerequisites: -
Ability Score: Constitution
Benefit: The evolutionist can produce resin as a standard action. Resin is a useful substance that can be used as raw materials for any form of crafting skill, and also as has other potential uses. The evolutionist can produce resin a number of times per day equal to his mutator level plus his constitution modifier.
Used as a crafting material, each portion of resin is worth 5 gold and the time needed to craft the item is halved. It cannot be used to craft magical items, only mundane objects. Items made of resin are as strong as their steel counterparts, but they also recover one hit point per hour when damaged and may make fortitude saves even if not held by a creature.
The resin can also be shot at a 5 ft. surface or at a medium creature as a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 10 feet. A surface covered in resin is considered difficult terrain, however, the DC to climb any such surface is lowered by 10. A creature covered in resin becomes entangled, and must succeed on an escape artist (same DC as a save against mutations) check to free itself, or take a minute to get out of the resin.
Further Mutations: This mutation can be taken once per three mutator levels, each time it is taken, the gold value of each individual portion of resin increases by 5 gold, the square area covered by a resin shot increases by 5 feet and the maximum creature size that can be affected by a resin shot increases by one size category.

Question about this mutation: can you only use the resin or can you mix it with other materials?

On another note, I'm noticing no Ooze mutations, most of the standard mutations can be fluffed as such, but there isn't any ascendancy, perfection, or specific mutations or teratomorphisms for the archetype. I'd love to see it, personally.

[Draken]

Question about this mutation: can you only use the resin or can you mix it with other materials?

On another note, I'm noticing no Ooze mutations, most of the standard mutations can be fluffed as such, but there isn't any ascendancy, perfection, or specific mutations or teratomorphisms for the archetype. I'd love to see it, personally.

Sigh. Once per semester.

The Ooze type offers too much by itself for me to give it out as a basic option for ascendancy (quite a few immunities, most of which are baked into Amorphous), and at the same time it simply lacks enough conceptual space for me to make an entire special mutation list for it (Oozes iconically do the following: they secrete acid, they use a special type of swallow whole, they are amorphous and they make rogues sad, all of these capabilities can be found in the standard mutation list).

Furthermore, to me anyway, Ooze, along with Animal and Vermin, are by no means improvements in creature type, since all of these types have default intellect limitations as such, I feel like characters in the game world would consider these creatures to be at the very bottom of the evolutionary ladder.

My recommendation for ooze players is to pick the three amorphous teratomorphisms and go either Aberration or Elemental Ascendant.

-------

And resin does not need to be the only thing you use in any given craft check, if you chose to use it.

[EdroGrimshell]

The Ooze type offers too much by itself for me to give it out as a basic option for ascendancy (quite a few immunities, most of which are baked into Amorphous), and at the same time it simply lacks enough conceptual space for me to make an entire special mutation list for it (Oozes iconically do the following: they secrete acid, they use a special type of swallow whole, they are amorphous and they make rogues sad, all of these capabilities can be found in the standard mutation list).

I realize, I even said that in the last post. It was just a note that, obviously, has been asked before.


Furthermore, to me anyway, Ooze, along with Animal and Vermin, are by no means improvements in creature type, since all of these types have default intellect limitations as such, I feel like characters in the game world would consider these creatures to be at the very bottom of the evolutionary ladder.

And yet some see animals, vermin, and oozes as superior because of their simplicity. All three have their place, and all three have traits that are in the basic mutation list. Could make one called primeval that does roll ooze and vermin together that only gives an ascendancy and perfection trait. Maybe perfection would be something akin to being a swarmshifter. It'd be an interesting take.


My recommendation for ooze players is to pick the three amorphous teratomorphisms and go either Aberration or Elemental Ascendant.

A good baseline, yes, and quite possibly the best option for that sort of thing, just a comment that I thought might be a good variant because of those cults that believe oozes are perfect in their simplicity. That sort of thing.


And resin does not need to be the only thing you use in any given craft check, if you chose to use it.

Nice, I like this option a lot more then :smallbiggrin:

[Swok]

Just want to make sure I understand how the ability score increasing mutations work: At sixth level, an evolutionist could only have one instance of say, powerful form? and could they also not take it before level six?

[Draken]

Just want to make sure I understand how the ability score increasing mutations work: At sixth level, an evolutionist could only have one instance of say, powerful form? and could they also not take it before level six?

You can take any given mutation a number of times equal to a fraction of your mutator level (by all means class level), rounding said fraction up.

So for Powerful Form, a 1/6 mutation, you can take it one time if you are level 1-6, up to two times once you hit level 7, up to a third time any point after reaching 13, a fourth time once you are level 17, etc.

[Swok]

You can take any given mutation a number of times equal to a fraction of your mutator level (by all means class level), rounding said fraction up.

So for Powerful Form, a 1/6 mutation, you can take it one time if you are level 1-6, up to two times once you hit level 7, up to a third time any point after reaching 13, a fourth time once you are level 17, etc.

Thank you for the reply.

[DrunkenMists]

Question About:


Vestigial Wings
Prerequisite: -
Ability Score: None
Benefit: The evolutionist develops organs or limbs that aid in aerial movement, these give him a +5 bonus on all jump checks and increase any fly speed he has by 10 feet. For every instance of this mutation taken, the evolutionist’s maneuverability improves by one step.
Further Mutations: This mutation can be taken once per five mutator levels[/SPOILER]

Does Further Mutations past the First of this one Add JUST maneuverability or does it also add +10ft Fly speed and +5 Jump?

[Draken]

Question About:


Does Further Mutations past the First of this one Add JUST maneuverability or does it also add +10ft Fly speed and +5 Jump?

It improves everything.

[Necroticplague]

For all the stat-improving mutations, how specific is a "[stat] based check"? I'm trying to make a character with dex and strength of those, and was just wondering what it applied to. Does it only apply to ability checks (i.e., breaking rope)?What about ability based skill checks? The same untrained? what about attack rolls or saves?

[Draken]

For all the stat-improving mutations, how specific is a "[stat] based check"? I'm trying to make a character with dex and strength of those, and was just wondering what it applied to. Does it only apply to ability checks (i.e., breaking rope)?What about ability based skill checks? The same untrained? what about attack rolls or saves?

First of all.

Gosh, they add a new spoiler tag but can't add a quote tag.


Powerful Form
Prerequisite: -
Ability Score: None
Benefit: The evolutionist gains a +1 bonus on all strength based checks and skill checks and his strength increases by 2.
Further Mutations: This mutation can be taken up to once per six mutator levels.
Special: Unlike other innate mutations, Powerful Form is not suppressed when the evolutionist is not in his natural shape.


A check in this case refers to an ability check or a skill based on strength. This benefit applies to strength checks to break manacles, doors (basically to break stuff). It doesn't apply to attack rolls, but it does help with trips and bull rushes, for instance. It also benefits climb and jump, of course.

I am a proponent that the Dexterity version applies to initiative, which is called out as a dexterity check. This differs from an attack roll because an attack roll is not an ability check, it merely receives an ability modifier according to a few circumstances.

[Necroticplague]

First of all.

Gosh, they add a new spoiler tag but can't add a quote tag.



A check in this case refers to an ability check or a skill based on strength. This benefit applies to strength checks to break manacles, doors (basically to break stuff). It doesn't apply to attack rolls, but it does help with trips and bull rushes, for instance. It also benefits climb and jump, of course.

I am a proponent that the Dexterity version applies to initiative, which is called out as a dexterity check. This differs from an attack roll because an attack roll is not an ability check, it merely receives an ability modifier according to a few circumstances.Ithink I got it, it was the addition of "based" that threw me off, just one probing question:

Why would combat maneuvers get the bonus but not melee attacks? Both of those are bab+str+1d20+/- size penalty/bonus.

Then again, the character is a grappler, so it's to my advantage (hitting a touch attack isn't too hard).


EDIT: Nevermind, I looked up "check" in the glossary and realized why: attacks and saving throws are not checks, everything else is a check.

[Draken]

Ithink I got it, it was the addition of "based" that threw me off, just one probing question:

Why would combat maneuvers get the bonus but not melee attacks? Both of those are bab+str+1d20+/- size penalty/bonus.

Then again, the character is a grappler, so it's to my advantage (hitting a touch attack isn't too hard).


EDIT: Nevermind, I looked up "check" in the glossary and realized why: attacks and saving throws are not checks, everything else is a check.

Not "combat maneuvers". Trip attempts and Bull Rushes explicitly call for a Strength check as part of them. Grapple checks are different, the grapple check is a modified attack roll, not an ability check.

[Necroticplague]

Not "combat maneuvers". Trip attempts and Bull Rushes explicitly call for a Strength check as part of them. Grapple checks are different, the grapple check is a modified attack roll, not an ability check.

The fact it says it is "like an attack roll" actually helps argue it is effected, since if it is like one, that means it isn't one. to quote the section you are thinking of:


Grapple Checks
Repeatedly in a grapple, you need to make opposed grapple checks against an opponent. A grapple check is like a melee attack roll. Your attack bonus on a grapple check is: Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier

Or for possible less ambiguity, let's look under the definition of grapple check:

An opposed check that determines a character's ability to struggle in a grapple. Grapple check = 1d20 + base attack modifier + Strength modifier + special size modifier (+4 for every size category larger than Medium or -4 for every size category smaller than Medium).

Note this definition lacks both any reference to attack rolls, and explicitly calls it out as an oppose check.

[Owrtho]

Furthermore, to me anyway, Ooze, along with Animal and Vermin, are by no means improvements in creature type, since all of these types have default intellect limitations as such, I feel like characters in the game world would consider these creatures to be at the very bottom of the evolutionary ladder.


And yet some see animals, vermin, and oozes as superior because of their simplicity. All three have their place, and all three have traits that are in the basic mutation list. Could make one called primeval that does roll ooze and vermin together that only gives an ascendancy and perfection trait. Maybe perfection would be something akin to being a swarmshifter. It'd be an interesting take.

A good baseline, yes, and quite possibly the best option for that sort of thing, just a comment that I thought might be a good variant because of those cults that believe oozes are perfect in their simplicity. That sort of thing.

Just a thought on this, but perhaps the best route here would be a PRC built around the idea that true perfection of form is found in simplicity, and that attempting to become more complex to reach perfection is an effort in futility, as complexity simply adds more points of possible failure. Might make it possible to enter at level 6, and have two main paths being vermin and ooze. While most of the primary abilities for these can be accomplished via other mutations, there may still be some few taken to the extreme variations that may be used. The culmination of the class could fit as being a swarm form or gaining the swarm subtype, since in the case of vermin it fits being lots of smaller parts making the whole (or to put it simple an actual swarm) and in the case of an ooze, the traits of a swarm could be fluffed as a highly fluid body (being counted smaller, able to flow around others. As oozes generally are an acid or base of some sort the automatic attack on people in the same square along with possible status effects). In exchange might add limitations to what other mutations can be taken, or possibly limit the number of different mutations. That said, I am a bit behind on what all evolutionists can do now given how long it's been since I looked, and this may seem like a better idea than it is due to exhaustion. Oh well.

Owrtho

[DrunkenMists]

TL;DR Version: Lix Lorn's Swarm Class might be better option for Swarms/Vermin; Evolutionist is a little more biased between 1 powerful being; even the prc seems a little more geared towards 1 power being and one or two expendable powered beings.
Evolutionist = Superhero; Swarm/Vermin = Zombie Apocolypse
Average Superhero could probally take on the Zombie Apocolypse; but it would be a slow going war of attrition; superhero might give up..or die before the end.

It might be a little more that evolutionist is a little bit more based along "better, faster, Stronger" where Vermin and Swarms tend to be based on "MOAR! MOAR TO INFINITY!! MWAHAHA!" (Yes; I'm highly aware thats probally a over-generalization/simplification.) Lix-Lorn made a class I beleive thats a bit more thematically placed along the idea of the swarm becoming stronger.

The issue I see with this class is somewhat how would a swarm/vermin effect be part of the class; without changing how the class works as a whole.

Swarm: the idea of a swarm; is alot of little creatures effectively being "overpowering" to things larger than it. a Fly itself isn't all that annoying or scary. but send 100-1000 at a person; it's almost guarenteed to be a OMFG!!!!:smalleek: *RUN AWAY!*. The only way I could see this being somewhat working is it allows you to spread your evolutions to other creatures; I think that the OP already made a PRC along this lines? Get say..a Rat; send it over a dex, Barbs evolution and let it be a roaming shooter?. Not sure how well that would work power wise; but it could be an interesting concept.

Vermin: Like Draken mentioned; it almost kinda seems a step back; your either kinda falling back into a weaker form of creature (assuming 1 creature; and not a bit of a swarm going) or your having to rely on the concept of a swarm; and evolutions being spread through the swarm in either a watered down version..or spread all around.

[Draken]

I would also like to point you towards the Ancient Teratomorphisms for a small hurdle into using swarms as a capstone for a separate prc.

I mean, it could be done. Animal/Ooze/Vermin prc, following more or less the same recipe as the Worldshaker. Special abilities would just be harsh to think out.

[Milo v3]

Was it intended that you can't have a huge warforged transform into a car or truck or whatever with Baseline Structure Reconfiguration?

As written it doesn't count teratormorphisms, so it would only let you be medium sized stuff.

[Draken]

Was it intended that you can't have a huge warforged transform into a car or truck or whatever with Baseline Structure Reconfiguration?

As written it doesn't count teratormorphisms, so it would only let you be medium sized stuff.

You can transform into any medium object and then your teratomorphisms would adapt your size accordingly.

This limitation is mostly because of creatures, not objects. With objects you can always make a scale version of what you want to turn into and do just that. Sounds like a copout? Sure does, but you can do it.

[adversityarchit]

I have a few questions as to how to interpret some of these combinations of mutations.

"The evolutionist gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat, he may treat unarmed strikes as grouped natural weapons (as many as he has fists or analogous limbs to use) or as manufactured weapons as he prefers."

"Thorns [Innate]
...Short thorns grow on the evolutionist’s body. These thorns work as Armor Spikes, and also increase the damage of the evolutionist’s other natural weapons and unarmed strikes by one, as well as causing them to deal piercing damage in addition to any other type of damage."

"Rend
Prerequisite: Any pair of slashing or piercing natural attacks"

Does the above work? Can I take Rending for my unarmed strikes if I have the Thorns mutation? As the Improved Unarmed Strike class feature is worded, it is unclear whether the evolutionist can actually treat his unarmed attacks as natural weapons for the purposes of mutation prerequisites, or if it's only possible to do so in terms of combat.

Another one:

"Proboscis [Innate]
...The evolutionist may only add half of his strength modifier to the damage of the proboscis; however, whenever he damages a living creature with it, he heals a number of lost hit points equal to the damage dealt."

"Elemental Attack
...The evolutionist may choose one type of natural weapon he has, all attacks made with that natural weapon deal an extra 1d6 points of damage of an energy type of the evolutionist’s choice."

Firstly, do the above stack so that additional damage caused by elemental attack would translate to additional healing from the proboscis?

Secondly, where it says choose one type, does that mean if I chose claws, each claw would deal 1d6 additional elemental damage? Would this stack with Rending and be included in the additional damage granted by that?

[Draken]

I have a few questions as to how to interpret some of these combinations of mutations.

"The evolutionist gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat, he may treat unarmed strikes as grouped natural weapons (as many as he has fists or analogous limbs to use) or as manufactured weapons as he prefers."

"Thorns [Innate]
...Short thorns grow on the evolutionist’s body. These thorns work as Armor Spikes, and also increase the damage of the evolutionist’s other natural weapons and unarmed strikes by one, as well as causing them to deal piercing damage in addition to any other type of damage."

"Rend
Prerequisite: Any pair of slashing or piercing natural attacks"

Does the above work? Can I take Rending for my unarmed strikes if I have the Thorns mutation? As the Improved Unarmed Strike class feature is worded, it is unclear whether the evolutionist can actually treat his unarmed attacks as natural weapons for the purposes of mutation prerequisites, or if it's only possible to do so in terms of combat.

Another one:

"Proboscis [Innate]
...The evolutionist may only add half of his strength modifier to the damage of the proboscis; however, whenever he damages a living creature with it, he heals a number of lost hit points equal to the damage dealt."

"Elemental Attack
...The evolutionist may choose one type of natural weapon he has, all attacks made with that natural weapon deal an extra 1d6 points of damage of an energy type of the evolutionist’s choice."

Firstly, do the above stack so that additional damage caused by elemental attack would translate to additional healing from the proboscis?

Secondly, where it says choose one type, does that mean if I chose claws, each claw would deal 1d6 additional elemental damage? Would this stack with Rending and be included in the additional damage granted by that?

In order:

1. That line means your unarmed attacks count as natural weapons. Yes.

2. Thorns makes your unarmed attacks into piercing/bludgeoning natural attacks.

3. Rend can be taken for Unarmed Strike in such a situation.

4. Proboscis only heals for its base damage.

5. Rend does not apply the extra damage from elemental attack.

[adversityarchit]

Awesome, thanks for the clarification!

One more thing - can an Evolutionist with the Nourish and Bounty mutations from the Plant list eat his own produce and gain the healing/benefits of it?

Oh and before I forget, when applying the Karish template to a creature, do I have to use the feats the base creature comes with and additional HD add more, or can I just give it feats based on HD effectively allowing me to replace feats it has normally?

[Draken]

Awesome, thanks for the clarification!

One more thing - can an Evolutionist with the Nourish and Bounty mutations from the Plant list eat his own produce and gain the healing/benefits of it?

Oh and before I forget, when applying the Karish template to a creature, do I have to use the feats the base creature comes with and additional HD add more, or can I just give it feats based on HD effectively allowing me to replace feats it has normally?

1. Yes.

2. Up to how your DM decides that. Same as it would be with animal companions or special mounts.

[Milo v3]

Oh and before I forget, when applying the Karish template to a creature, do I have to use the feats the base creature comes with and additional HD add more, or can I just give it feats based on HD effectively allowing me to replace feats it has normally?

Aren't Karish Companions originally vermin? There are no feats on the base creature.

[adversityarchit]

Several of the 1HD vermin I checked for possible Karish had feats like Weapon Finesse and Diehard. But I'm playing Pathfinder so maybe they are different?

One more question, and this is an interesting one. If I have the following:

Negaton Touch [Supernatural]

...The evolutionist chooses one natural weapon he has, that natural weapon deals additional negative energy damage equal to 1d6 + half his mutator level. In addition, the evolutionist can, instead of making a normal attack, make a touch attack with the any limb that received negaton touch, dealing only the damage from negaton touch if he does this. Touch attacks made with this mutation are considered attacks made with the natural weapon that received it.

As well as Negative Energy Affinity... can I use a touch attack on myself to heal myself for d6? At any time?

[Draken]

Several of the 1HD vermin I checked for possible Karish had feats like Weapon Finesse and Diehard. But I'm playing Pathfinder so maybe they are different?

One more question, and this is an interesting one. If I have the following:

Negaton Touch [Supernatural]

...The evolutionist chooses one natural weapon he has, that natural weapon deals additional negative energy damage equal to 1d6 + half his mutator level. In addition, the evolutionist can, instead of making a normal attack, make a touch attack with the any limb that received negaton touch, dealing only the damage from negaton touch if he does this. Touch attacks made with this mutation are considered attacks made with the natural weapon that received it.

As well as Negative Energy Affinity... can I use a touch attack on myself to heal myself for d6? At any time?

Yes. A simple trick for endless healing. That just so happens to be pretty pointless because Fast Healing is a thing.