The better man? There is no such thing [base class]

[Draken]

Any ETA on the geneticist skill, or is that withering on the vine?

I plan to write something for it next week, should be able to post something by next Saturday.

[Omnicrat]

Great to hear! This is one of my two favorite classes, my absolute favorite if you count Gramarie as a different system. Which one certainly should.

[sajro]

I was toying around with the class and something came to mind, and I was interested in hearing your thoughts on this.

1. Do you think it would be possible to make a viable class that is technically an avolutionist but gains mutations randomly?

2. If you think does this seem to be a good enough explanation:


Mutations: At first level, the evolutionist gains six mutations. Each level afterwards, he gains four mutations.
At first level he can choose 1 mutation freely, 2 from the basic mutations, and then randomly rolls the rest.
At every other level, he can choose 1 mutation from the basic mutations, and randomly rolls the rest
It is all ways alloed to forego a choice to roll it totally random instead.


Rolling is done by first rolling what type of mutation, and then rolling on the associated table for that type

3. Any Ideas on how to make i viable if this idea seems to weak?

And to be clear, I really honor your great work I simply saw this idea as a fun way to expand on your ideas.

[inuyasha]

Without going into BoEF details, how does this class affect the evolutionist's reproduction? Does a 20th level evolutionist elf with wings and scales and psionic abilities, as well as some plant bits still make normal elf babies?

[Draken]

Without going into BoEF details, how does this class affect the evolutionist's reproduction? Does a 20th level evolutionist elf with wings and scales and psionic abilities, as well as some plant bits still make normal elf babies?

Hard call. If the evolutionist took anything but the humanoid ascendancy, he isn't even technically an elf anymore.

This would be a DM call I think, since it affects the setting more than the character or the adventure, if the DM runs his group through a setting that is consistently developing between adventures.

Personally, I would have it so that the evolutionist's children are distinctly different from the norm.

--------------

Also, for the idea of random mutations... It could work? You would need to add a rule about rerolling illegal mutations, but other than that it would just possibly result in a character that is unlikely to be particularly functional past a certain point.

[BIGnoobian]

i dont know if what im suggesting has been asked or if its already included in the higher mutations but is there a mutation that grants the Evolusionist the ability to give others the benefit of say "my own" fast healing for a set amount of time or is that a bit too high tier and at that point it would be almost useless cause go to town cleric and then use some of the hundreds of gold i haven't looked at every mutation so if anyone has suggestion on what mutations would supplement this effect please tell me we have no cleric and our terramach keeps getting owned by things that ignore his nat scarred flesh armour and draining his con so causing a good bit of harder than norm creatures

[Milo v3]

i dont know if what im suggesting has been asked or if its already included in the higher mutations but is there a mutation that grants the Evolusionist the ability to give others the benefit of say "my own" fast healing for a set amount of time or is that a bit too high tier and at that point it would be almost useless cause go to town cleric and then use some of the hundreds of gold i haven't looked at every mutation so if anyone has suggestion on what mutations would supplement this effect please tell me we have no cleric and our terramach keeps getting owned by things that ignore his nat scarred flesh armour and draining his con so causing a good bit of harder than norm creatures

The high evolutionary prestige class (iirc) can give people your mutations.

[Draken]

i dont know if what im suggesting has been asked or if its already included in the higher mutations but is there a mutation that grants the Evolusionist the ability to give others the benefit of say "my own" fast healing for a set amount of time or is that a bit too high tier and at that point it would be almost useless cause go to town cleric and then use some of the hundreds of gold i haven't looked at every mutation so if anyone has suggestion on what mutations would supplement this effect please tell me we have no cleric and our terramach keeps getting owned by things that ignore his nat scarred flesh armour and draining his con so causing a good bit of harder than norm creatures


The high evolutionary prestige class (iirc) can give people your mutations.

Other than that, there are mutation options that give you the ability to heal others. Nominally, you can take druid spells with Spell-like ability (The Vigor line is available to druids, I recall) and the Nourishment mutation.

[inuyasha]

With the High Evolutionary (the one that grant mutations) how many people can you grant mutations to at once? I'm building a character with that class right now, and it would be nice if it could affect a large group of people at a time.

[Orderic]

I don't think there is a maximum number of people that can have mutations from a single High Evolutionary.


Also, I am currently working on an Evolutionist and I wonder... what would be the best way, to make an aberation evolutionist that can easily survive in space?

[Draken]

With the High Evolutionary (the one that grant mutations) how many people can you grant mutations to at once? I'm building a character with that class right now, and it would be nice if it could affect a large group of people at a time.


I don't think there is a maximum nuumber of people that can have mutations from a single High Evolutionary.


Also, I am currently working on an Evolutionist and I wonder... what would be the best way, to make an aberation evolutionist that can easily survive in space?

As Orderic stated, there is no limit to how many people a single High Evolutionary can empower. Just a limit to how much a single creature can be empowered by High Evolutionaries.

As for space survival, the rules for space hazard in 3.5 are 'hidden' in the Nailed to the Sky spell, as it goes.


Targets subject to these conditions take 2d6 points of damage each from heat or cold and 1d4 points of damage from the vacuum each round. The target immediately begins to suffocate.

So you need to pick about 15 fire resist, 15 cold resist, fast healing 4+ (no real way of avoiding the vacuum damage since it is typeless) and something to deal with the breathing issue (a spell-like ability for instance).

[thethird]

Hey Dracken any estimate date on the Kyorl'Zuraj? they are intriguing and due to environmental adaptation relevant to the discussion.


The Kyorl'Zuraj are not complete. But here is a teaser:


Environmental Adaptation: The kyorl’zuraj paragon will survive even the harshest places of the cosmos. He may hold his breath for up to two hours per point of constitution. He may go without food or water for one day per point of constitution before starting to suffer of dehydration or starvation. He does not take damage from the pressure of deep water or from vacuum. As a final benefit, the paragon gains resistance to cold and fire 5, or increases existing resistances to cold and fire by 5.

[Necroticplague]

Dip a few teratamorphisms/mutations from Elemental and Construct. Pick up the Elemental Renewal,Heart of Fire, Heart of Water teratamorphisms and Overdrive mutation. The healing from cold/heat should cover up for the vacuum, and your Overdrive can heal you if the previous wasn't enough. Obviously, you have to have some way to avoid suffocation, like Water Breathing+Create Water SLA (though being an undead creature or a construct before you Ascended as an Aberration would also work).

[Draken]

Hey Dracken any estimate date on the Kyorl'Zuraj? they are intriguing and due to environmental adaptation relevant to the discussion.

Strictly speaking, they have been done for awhile (ruleswise). Just missing their fluff entries, for the most part.

Here, for your benefit.



Kyorl’Zuraj
When the world was young and aboleths ruled the briny depths, before the coming of god and mortal, the Kyorl’Zuraj held domain over the dry lands.

Aberration (Augmented Humanoid): The Kyorl’Zuraj are aberrations, however they share enough traits with humanoids so that they remain subject to spells or effects that affect humanoids only, such as charm person or dominate person.
Medium: As Medium creatures, the kyorl’zuraj have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Kyorl’Zuraj base land speed is 30 feet.
Darkvision: The Kyorl’Zuraj can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and they can function just fine with no light at all.
Ancient Anatomy: Kyorl’Zuraj have +2 racial bonus on fortitude saves against poison and disease.
Chitin: Kyorl’Zuraj have hardened exoskeletons, granting the character a +1 natural armor bonus to AC.
Multiple Eyes: Kyorl’Zuraj have two to three sets of eyes capable of somewhat independent action, granting them a +2 racial bonus on spot and search checks.
Mutant Nature: Kyorl’Zuraj receive two mutations at first level. If the character lacks levels in a mutator class he is treated as having a mutator level of one, may not exchange any of these mutations upon gaining a new level and may not pick these mutations from the basic list.
Godforsaken: The Kyorl’Zuraj did battle with the divine at the dawn of history and lost, their survivors being scattered to the far ends of the cosmos. Such indignity was never forgotten nor ever forgiven. Kyorl’Zuraj have a +2 bonus on all saving throws against divine magic and the special abilities of outsiders. However, all healing applied to them by divine magic is halved, and no form of divine magic can bring a dead kyorl’zuraj back to life.
Automatic Language: Common, Undercommon, Karish. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic). Kyorl’Zuraj speak the crude tongue of the young races and the old tongue, as well as the chittering language shared with their favored servitors.
Favored Class: Evolutionist.
Level Adjustment: +0.

 


Kyorl’Zuraj Racial Paragon

HD: d8


Level
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Features


1
+0
+0
+0
+0
Mutations, Caste, Racial Teratomorphism I


2
+1
+0
+0
+0
Mutations, Alien Might


3
+1
+1
+1
+1
Mutations, Racial Teratomorphism II


4
+2
+1
+1
+1
Mutations, Alien Might


5
+2
+1
+1
+1
Mutations, Racial Teratomorphism III

Class Skills (2 + Int Modifier): Balance, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Handle Animal, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Any), Listen, Move Silently, Psicraft, Search, Spellcraft, Spot.

Proficiencies: Kyorl’Zuraj paragons are proficient with simple weapons and light armor, but not with shields. They are also proficient with any natural weapons they might acquire.

Mutations: The kyorl’zuraj paragon gains five mutations at first level and three mutations at each class level afterwards.

Caste: At first level, the kyorl’zuraj paragon must chose a caste to which he will belong, once made, this choice cannot be changed.
Forerunner: Forerunners scour the cosmos in search of worlds infested with godspawn for the kyorl’zuraj to vanquish. The forerunner gains a +2 racial bonus to constitution and a +10 bonus to his base land speed.
Demagogue: Hierarchs endure the indignity of handling interactions with lesser races. The hierarch gains a +2 racial bonus to charisma and a +2 bonus on bluff, intimidate and sense motive checks. Bluff, Diplomacy and Sense Motive are all class skills for members of the hierarch caste.
Overseer: Overseers direct groups of kyorl’zuraj, karish and whatever beings might fall under their thrall. The overseer gains a +2 racial bonus to wisdom and a +2 racial bonus on initiative checks. An overseer may also make one listen check and one spot check each round as a free action.
Sage: Sages are the keepers and appliers of kyorl’zuraj knowledge. The sage gains a +2 racial bonus to intelligence and receives maximum ranks into one Knowledge or Craft skill of his choice. Whenever a sage rolls less than 10 on check of any check of the Craft or knowledge skill, he treats it as if he had rolled a 10 instead.
Harbinger: Harbingers do foul work that the kyorl’zuraj don’t want other races to discover or interfere with. The harbinger gains a +2 racial bonus to dexterity, suffers no penalty on Hide and Move Silently checks when moving at his normal speed and suffers only a -10 penalty on Hide and Move silently checks when attacking, running or charging, as well as on hide checks after sniping. The harbinger may hide after sniping as a swift action, instead of a move action.
Warrior: Warriors shed the blood of the god spawned races for their kin. The warrior gains a +2 racial bonus to strength and gains proficiency with martial weapons, medium armor and heavy armor and shields.

Racial Teratomorphism: At 1st level, 3rd level and 5th level, the kyorl’zuraj paragon gains one special ability from the list below. These abilities are graded in three ranks, and at first only abilities of rank I can be taken, but as this ability is gained at later levels, new ranks become available. Whenever a Greater Mutation grants a save, it uses the default DC for mutations.
Racial Teratomorphisms count as teratomorphisms whenever an ability would use the number of teratomorphisms a character has in order to determine its effects, however they are not considered teratomorphisms otherwise.

Racial Teratomorphism I

Cocoon: As a full-round action, the kyorl’zuraj paragon may spin a cocoon around himself. The cocoon has 10 hit points per character level and hardness 10, if it is damaged, it recovers one hit point per character level of the paragon every hour. As long as the paragon is within his cocoon he does not need to eat, drink or breathe and is treated as if he were resting under long term care, doubling all hit point and ability score regains (from natural healing, fast healing, magical healing or other sources) all harmful attacks and effects aimed at the paragon are redirected to the cocoon, which has an Armor Class of 15 + the paragon’s mutator level, it makes fortitude saves using the paragon’s fortitude bonus, automatically fails reflex saves and is immune to anything that requires a will save. If the cocoon fails a save against a death effect, is reduced to 0 hit points or otherwise “killed” the paragon is released unharmed into the same square where the cocoon was. As long as the paragon is inside the cocoon, he can take no actions other than breaking free of it. Breaking free of the cocoon is a standard action.
Environmental Adaptation: The kyorl’zuraj paragon will survive even the harshest places of the cosmos. He may hold his breath for up to two hours per point of constitution. He may go without food or water for one day per point of constitution before starting to suffer of dehydration or starvation. He does not take damage from the pressure of deep water or from vacuum. As a final benefit, the kyorl’zuraj paragon gains resistance to cold and fire 5, or increases existing resistances to cold and fire by 5.
Bonus Mutations: The kyorl’zuraj gains three additional mutations. This ability can be taken more than once.


Racial Teratomorphism II

Carapace: The kyorl’zuraj paragon’s natural armor increases by his class level. In addition, he gains damage reduction 1/- for each teratomorphism he possesses, this damage reduction stacks with all similar damage reduction.
Karish Companion: This ability works identically to the Karish Companion teratomorphism.
Pluricaste: The kyorl’zuraj paragon gains the benefits of a second caste. This ability can be taken more than once, adding a different caste each time.
Tauric Body: This ability works exactly like the Tauric body teratomorphism.


Racial Teratomorphism III

Flight: The kyorl’zuraj paragon gains the ability to fly at twice his base land speed, with average maneuverability.
Reduction: This ability works exactly like the Size Decrease I teratomorphism ad stacks with it.
Growth: This ability works exactly like the Size Increase I teratomorphism and stacks with it.
Caste Lord: The paragon is exalted among those of his caste gaining additional powers as described below. If the paragon has multiple castes, he gains the ability of the caste he took upon entering this class.


Forerunner: The Forerunner Lord is thunder and lightning, his approach announces the oncoming storm and serves as a first, dreadful strike. The paragon may spend a swift action to gain a move action, and whenever he takes a five foot step, he may move up to 10 feet.
Demagogue: The Demagogue Lord approaches the filthy godspawned masses and they know of the coming end, the foul energies channeled by it terrifying them to the very core or demanding that they kneel before their vile elders. The paragon gains the ability to turn and rebuke godspawn as a cleric of his mutator level (although he is unable to destroy, command or bolster them), this ability can be used once every five rounds. The paragon gains a bonus on his turning checks and on his turn damage equal to the number of teratomorphisms he has.
Overseer: The Lord Overseer directs those around him, friend or foe, according to his will. Once every five rounds, as a standard action, the paragon may command one creature within 60 feet to take a standard or move action of his choice, an unwilling creature can negate this effect with a successful will save (the DC is based on charisma), a creature that fails this save must follow the paragon’s orders in much the same way a dominated creature would. This action happens on the paragon’s turn and does not interfere with the target’s actions on his own turn.
Sage: The Sage Lord’s mind roars with the power of generations. The paragon gains either an additional spell-like ability or psi-like ability of each level he is able to acquire through mutations, chosen when this ability is gained. These additional spell-like and psi abilities follow all the same rules as those acquired through the respective mutations. Whenever the paragon gains a new mutator level, he may exchange all of his bonus spell-like or psi-like abilities should he desire to, but he may not change whether he gains spell-like or psi-like abilities.
Harbinger: Lord Harbingers end the enemies of the kyorl’zuraj. The paragon gains a number of die of sneak attack equal to the number of teratomorphisms he has. Furthermore, he gains Favored Enemy against one godspawned creature type of his choice, if he chooses humanoid or outsider, he does not need to specify a subtype. The paragon’s favored enemies never benefit from immunity against his sneak attack damage.
Warrior: The Lord Warrior is second to none in the battlefield, his claws and blades cleave his victims in sublime ways. The paragon gains an initiator level equal to his mutator level, a number of maneuvers known equal to the number of teratomorphisms he has, one maneuver readied for every four mutator levels and one stance known, plus an additional one for every seven mutator levels. The paragon can chose any one discipline, other than devoted spirit, to pick his maneuvers from, this choice cannot be changed later on. At mutator level 6th and every two mutator levels afterwards, the paragon may exchange one of his maneuvers known for a different one. He may recover his readied maneuvers as a warblade does.


Alien Might: At second level and again at fourth level, the kyorl’zuraj paragon gains a +2 bonus to an ability score of his choice. He must chose different ability scores each time this ability is gained.

Sidebar: Godspawn
Godspawn are all creatures not of the aberration, construct, elemental, ooze, undead and vermin types.

[Orderic]

Thank you very much, Draken. Not only does it look very interesting, it is also just what I needed.

[Omnicrat]

1) Can the Kyorl'Zuraj have the outsider mutations feat?

2) Does healing from Outsider mutation Cleric SLAs count as divine?

I assume the answer to the first one is yes and the answer to the second is no, but no harm in being certain about these things. Also, I now want to give my Fossen the Aberration (Augmented Humanoid) subtype. That fits them a lot better than what I have them as now.

Edit: Another thing, do Kyorl'Zuraj have any alignment preferences? Nothing is given.

[Draken]

1) Can the Kyorl'Zuraj have the outsider mutations feat?

2) Does healing from Outsider mutation Cleric SLAs count as divine?

I assume the answer to the first one is yes and the answer to the second is no, but no harm in being certain about these things. Also, I now want to give my Fossen the Aberration (Augmented Humanoid) subtype. That fits them a lot better than what I have them as now.

Edit: Another thing, do Kyorl'Zuraj have any alignment preferences? Nothing is given.

They are not restricted and spell-like abilities from the outsider mutations would not be divine spells, no.

That said, culturally, they wouldn't pick that branch very often.

As for alignment, that would go into their fluff. Which expounds on the idea that, like the Aboleths, they battled the gods in the dawn of time for control of the material world, and lost. And they are bitter, vengeful and omnicidal about it now, as the texts on the Demagogue, Forerunner, Harbinger and Warrior castes imply. Their usual alignment is Lawful Evil, and their various hives tend to follow the wake of Elder Evils (or direct the path of said beings when possible) or work alongside Abominations to accomplish their goals.

[SoulSalvage]

Couple quick questions that I have for some mutations:

Vestigial Wings: The name makes it sound like this would increase a character's ability from 0, no flight to 20, clumsy. If it does, though, it makes the third teratomorph of flight seem... weak.

Natural Weapons: Can this be used to increase the damage of an unarmed strike? I'm going to be a player in a gestalt game, and my DM approved of this class, so I was wondering if this mutation could be used to increase the damage die of his unarmed attack. This kinda leads to further questions of if an unarmed strike could count as a natural weapons for later mutations (elemental attack, quills, etc.), so I was wondering what your intentions were.

Also, this is, hands down, my favorite class to brew characters from. It's a shame that so few DMs would allow homebrew, even stuff as detailed as this. Thanks! :smallbiggrin:

[Necroticplague]

Couple quick questions that I have for some mutations:

Vestigial Wings: The name makes it sound like this would increase a character's ability from 0, no flight to 20, clumsy. If it does, though, it makes the third teratomorph of flight seem... weak.

Not having flight is not the same as having a flight speed of zero. You don't have a flight speed to improve, so it doesn't help with that.

[Draken]

Couple quick questions that I have for some mutations:

Vestigial Wings: The name makes it sound like this would increase a character's ability from 0, no flight to 20, clumsy. If it does, though, it makes the third teratomorph of flight seem... weak.

Natural Weapons: Can this be used to increase the damage of an unarmed strike? I'm going to be a player in a gestalt game, and my DM approved of this class, so I was wondering if this mutation could be used to increase the damage die of his unarmed attack. This kinda leads to further questions of if an unarmed strike could count as a natural weapons for later mutations (elemental attack, quills, etc.), so I was wondering what your intentions were.

Also, this is, hands down, my favorite class to brew characters from. It's a shame that so few DMs would allow homebrew, even stuff as detailed as this. Thanks! :smallbiggrin:

Vestigial Wings answered by Necrotic.

Natural weapons can't be used to improve unarmed strike, however there is a mutation in the plant list that does that.

Also, unarmed strikes explicitly count as natural weapons for the evolutionist. This is clarified in the Improved Unarmed Strike bonus feat.

[Yasahiro]

Vestigial Wings answered by Necrotic.

Natural weapons can't be used to improve unarmed strike, however there is a mutation in the plant list that does that.

Also, unarmed strikes explicitly count as natural weapons for the evolutionist. This is clarified in the Improved Unarmed Strike bonus feat.

<Points his shaking finger at Draken>

You lied to me, Man! In the past I asked if one can use the natural weapons mutation to improve damage of unarmed strike, since it counts as natural weapon, and you were like "Yeah."

I will be judging you silently...

<Puts on his judging hat>

[Draken]

<Points his shaking finger at Draken>

You lied to me, Man! In the past I asked if one can use the natural weapons mutation to improve damage of unarmed strike, since it counts as natural weapon, and you were like "Yeah."

I will be judging you silently...

<Puts on his judging hat>

Hmm. Did I say that?

It's been so long since I looked at the text of that mutation that it might be true. I suppose.

[Yasahiro]

I also have to say, after all this time, that the Ancient Mutant Ascendancy seems kind of like weaksauce. There are not many vile feats and those that are, are situational or impractical. Weak advantage and a strong disadvantage with registering as evil...

Can't it be buffed in any way?

[Necroticplague]

I also have to say, after all this time, that the Ancient Mutant Ascendancy seems kind of like weaksauce. There are not many vile feats and those that are, are situational or impractical. Weak advantage and a strong disadvantage with registering as evil...

The Willing Deformity line has some pretty good ones, including immunity to mind effecting, improved reach, more natural weapons, and scent.

[Yasahiro]

The Willing Deformity line has some pretty good ones, including immunity to mind effecting, improved reach, more natural weapons, and scent.

True, but more often than not they carry large penalties to stuff. I mean, don't get me wrong but it feels like ascending into ancient horror should give you something more...

[Orderic]

True, but more often than not they carry large penalties to stuff. I mean, don't get me wrong but it feels like ascending into ancient horror should give you something more...

A change I am thinking about implementing in my game is, that the Ancient Mutant Ascendancy removes the penalties from the feats.

[SoulSalvage]

Thanks for the answers, guys! I'll talk with my dm and see if natural weapons can improve the damage die of my fists. And shoot lightning out of them while I'm at it. :smallbiggrin:

[Omnicrat]

I am 100% certain the answer is no, but I feel I should check anyway. You don't mind me incorporating the Fossen race into the mythos you're building with your Kyorl'Zuraj, do you?

[Draken]

I am 100% certain the answer is no, but I feel I should check anyway. You don't mind me incorporating the Fossen race into the mythos you're building with your Kyorl'Zuraj, do you?

I would need to learn more about the Fossen to give any insight.

[Omnicrat]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?263730-We-are-the-Fossen-and-we-will-not-be-taken-advantage-of!-3-5-race-PEACH

These are the Fossen. I haven't worked on them in a while but the race you just made has inspired me to make some new content for them. Also, I just meant you wouldn't have a problem with me doing that stuff on my end. I mean, it would be great if you linked to it or something like that after the fact, but that's not what I was asking about.

[Yasahiro]

If a character has sonic resistance, and thus gets elemental attack and can use elemental lances of sonic variety, or bomb if he wants to... Can he have Force and Verve apply to them, as they could count as sonic effects due to sonic damage?

[Necroticplague]

If a character has sonic resistance, and thus gets elemental attack and can use elemental lances of sonic variety, or bomb if he wants to... Can he have Force and Verve apply to them, as they could count as sonic effects due to sonic damage?

Doing sonic damage doesn't automatically make it a sonic effect. Sonic effects are things like a Harpy's shriek or a mutator's Howl, things that you have to hear to have effect you. Most are also mind-effecting.

[Yasahiro]

Doing sonic damage doesn't automatically make it a sonic effect. Sonic effects are things like a Harpy's shriek or a mutator's Howl, things that you have to hear to have effect you. Most are also mind-effecting.

Rats. I was hoping it would work.

Edit: Also my main gripe about Ancient Mutant Ascendancy is... Well, Ancient Perfection gives you traits of Elder Horror or Abomination, as if you are becoming one. Most Vile Feats are related to serving a devil or elder evil... You understand me not being okay with it due to that?

[Yasahiro]

Sorry for doublepost.

What are the rules for rocks of various weights thrown using the rock throwing ability? I mean, how much damage do I deal if I throw a 40 pound rock? What if I throw a 200 pound rock?

[Necroticplague]

Sorry for doublepost.

What are the rules for rocks of various weights thrown using the rock throwing ability? I mean, how much damage do I deal if I throw a 40 pound rock? What if I throw a 200 pound rock?

By default, damage is unrelated to rock weight thrown. This is for the better, because scaling damage to weight is a horrible, horrible idea (as shown by Hulking Hurler builds which needed new forms of mathmatic notation to show how much damage they did), because your slam attack increases linearly with strength, while carrying capacity increases quadratically. If you wanted throwing rocks to do damage by weight, use Rock Throwing to qualify for Hulking Hurler.

[EdroGrimshell]

Draken, would you mind me making use of the Mutation mechanics for a homebrew I am working on? It's called the Vessel and is essentially the harrowed as a mutator class. I figured I'd ask before I try posting it since you're the creator of the mutator system as it stands

[Yasahiro]

Draken, I was thinking about Expanded Creation...


Expanded Creation [Mutator]
You have more freedom in what you can create through your seeds.
Prerequisite: Budding Creation, Mutator level 9.
Benefit: Whenever you use the Budding Creation mutation, you may create animal matter (flesh, bone, hairs, etc) as if it were vegetable matter.
Special: If you have access to the Construct mutator list, you also gain the ability to create metals through budding creation. If you have access to the Elemental mutator list, you also gain the ability to create objects made of raw elements with Budding creation, these objects lose consistency and break down into the elements themselves, unless the character creating them has the matching elemental subtype, in which case the object functions normally, despite being made of pure air, water or fire.

I think the bold part is a bit too strong if left unclarified. What sort of metals can the Evolutionist make? We have to look at it properly. Can they just make a lot of seeds for adamantine 1 foot by 1 foot cubes that will last 24 hours? Or possibly stack them on top of each other? If the Budding creation was taken more than once, they can make more... And I just remembered that the amount of stuff produced by budding creation increases with mutator level...

When combined with Grove to make it remain... basically forever, what stops Evolutionist from having his grove contain an adamantine castle made out of nothing other than budding creation? There is no need to renew it and it can be shaped when using budding creation...

Can you clarify some limits?

I also have to say, the Integrated Arsenal mutation doesn't specify what the weapon has to be made out of. Can it be made out of Evolutionist's resin?

[Draken]

Draken, would you mind me making use of the Mutation mechanics for a homebrew I am working on? It's called the Vessel and is essentially the harrowed as a mutator class. I figured I'd ask before I try posting it since you're the creator of the mutator system as it stands

Go for it.


Draken, I was thinking about Expanded Creation...



I think the bold part is a bit too strong if left unclarified. What sort of metals can the Evolutionist make? We have to look at it properly. Can they just make a lot of seeds for adamantine 1 foot by 1 foot cubes that will last 24 hours? Or possibly stack them on top of each other? If the Budding creation was taken more than once, they can make more... And I just remembered that the amount of stuff produced by budding creation increases with mutator level...

When combined with Grove to make it remain... basically forever, what stops Evolutionist from having his grove contain an adamantine castle made out of nothing other than budding creation? There is no need to renew it and it can be shaped when using budding creation...

Can you clarify some limits?

I also have to say, the Integrated Arsenal mutation doesn't specify what the weapon has to be made out of. Can it be made out of Evolutionist's resin?

Grove is an incredibly potent tool in the hands of anyone. It is also stationary and gives warning to everyone in the area when you start setting it up.

So the PCs have an adamantine castle covering an area with a radius of one mile. Just a one mile radius building of night-indestructible metal. Took the evolutionist quite awhile to build it. But it is damn cool.

Now what.

Is he going to retire to it and laugh at the orcs that try to invade? Is he going to get a huge smug grin in his face whenever a dwarf pops in the border?

I ask again.

Now what?

It is a hard-to-destroy castle. It's not going to break anything.

[Rizban]

What happens to grown materials when taken outside of the area?

[Kapskaen]

I assume that the Budding Creation infinite duration would end as soon as it left the Grove, and would revert back to having a normal duration before it just up and disappears.

[Draken]

What happens to grown materials when taken outside of the area?


I assume that the Budding Creation infinite duration would end as soon as it left the Grove, and would revert back to having a normal duration before it just up and disappears.

The infinite duration clause does indeed end, but the item is supposed to stay for the duration of a newly made budding creation.

[Omnicrat]

The infinite duration clause does indeed end, but the item is supposed to stay for the duration of a newly made budding creation.

So, you can grow Adamant armor and weapons, and keep them permanent by storing them in your grove at the end of the day?

[Draken]

So, you can grow Adamant armor and weapons, and keep them permanent by storing them in your grove at the end of the day?

"Structures".

I know it is not technically a system term, but I believe there are certain words that I don't need to apply system terms to because they have meaning given to them by the language.

In that same vein, technically you can't really remove permanent things from the grove and the last explanation was bad. In my defense, I wrote this thing three-four years ago.

[Yasahiro]

Go for it.



Grove is an incredibly potent tool in the hands of anyone. It is also stationary and gives warning to everyone in the area when you start setting it up.

So the PCs have an adamantine castle covering an area with a radius of one mile. Just a one mile radius building of night-indestructible metal. Took the evolutionist quite awhile to build it. But it is damn cool.

Now what.

Is he going to retire to it and laugh at the orcs that try to invade? Is he going to get a huge smug grin in his face whenever a dwarf pops in the border?

I ask again.

Now what?

It is a hard-to-destroy castle. It's not going to break anything.

Here is what you do.

You take levels in Malshaper or anything really.
You start making creatures with the Spawning Pod feature, or making as many Animated Objects out of Living creation as you can.
Then you either tell those aberration you made or have as many Animated Objects as you can have outside your grove go and terrorize surrounding villages or places, pillaging them or adding them to your empire.
And if they try to stop you... your castle is adamantine! True, they can scry on you and teleport... but that's what anathemic secrecy and nondetection are for.

[Draken]

Here is what you do.

You take levels in Malshaper or anything really.
You start making creatures with the Spawning Pod feature, or making as many Animated Objects out of Living creation as you can.
Then you either tell those aberration you made or have as many Animated Objects as you can have outside your grove go and terrorize surrounding villages or places, pillaging them or adding them to your empire.
And if they try to stop you... your castle is adamantine! True, they can scry on you and teleport... but that's what anathemic secrecy and nondetection are for.

And out of the blue, the tables are turned. The Player has become the DM. Next session, the player has to setup a whole dungeon and the DM builds a party to invade it.

[darklink_shadow]

And out of the blue, the tables are turned. The Player has become the DM. Next session, the player has to setup a whole dungeon and the DM builds a party to invade it.

I love this idea.

[Magikeeper]

And out of the blue, the tables are turned. The Player has become the DM. Next session, the player has to setup a whole dungeon and the DM builds a party to invade it.

What about the other players? Not talking about adamantine castles - I'm not familiar with grove but stationary fortresses typically aren't an issue IMO - but rather the Malshaper monster creation. A lot of the suggestions for controlling that without tweaking the mechanics still result in the game revolving around a single player.

Would it be fine in some campaigns? Of course. I've been in a campaign where the players decided that finding a high-op hulking hurler to be a cohort's pscicrystal's cohort wouldn't be that useful. As a game's DM you could surely make a less balanced version of the ability work as well. But playing the class does not cause your DM to metamorphose into Draken, or transform the campaign into one where the ability is a non-issue. I don't think relying so heavily on the DM to limit the ability via plot and such is the best way to go about it.

[Omnicrat]

What about the other players? Not talking about adamantine castles - I'm not familiar with grove but stationary fortresses typically aren't an issue IMO - but rather the Malshaper monster creation. A lot of the suggestions for controlling that without tweaking the mechanics still result in the game revolving around a single player.

Would it be fine in some campaigns? Of course. I've been in a campaign where the players decided that finding a high-op hulking hurler to be a cohort's pscicrystal's cohort wouldn't be that useful. As a game's DM you could surely make a less balanced version of the ability work as well. But playing the class does not cause your DM to metamorphose into Draken, or transform the campaign into one where the ability is a non-issue. I don't think relying so heavily on the DM to limit the ability via plot and such is the best way to go about it.

Then said DM should not allow the class. I personally think that evolutionist is best in an all-evolutionist party.

[Draken]

What about the other players? Not talking about adamantine castles - I'm not familiar with grove but stationary fortresses typically aren't an issue IMO - but rather the Malshaper monster creation. A lot of the suggestions for controlling that without tweaking the mechanics still result in the game revolving around a single player.

Would it be fine in some campaigns? Of course. I've been in a campaign where the players decided that finding a high-op hulking hurler to be a cohort's pscicrystal's cohort wouldn't be that useful. As a game's DM you could surely make a less balanced version of the ability work as well. But playing the class does not cause your DM to metamorphose into Draken, or transform the campaign into one where the ability is a non-issue. I don't think relying so heavily on the DM to limit the ability via plot and such is the best way to go about it.

I will be honest and forthcoming here.

The Malshaper was one of my earliest homebrews and while it is very faithful to its concept, some of its abilities (read: Spawning Pod) are broken as hell if the DM doesn't take the proper reins.

Really, Spawning Pod is supposed to be balanced around the simple fact that while you are now birthing aberrations left and right, your new 'kids' are still essentially monstrous beings with inhuman thought patterns that should not act in a reliable fashion.

[Yasahiro]

I am bringing another question to this topic-table.

The question is: We have Spellshaper. Now, I am trying to make its Psionic Equivalent. However... due to the way Psionics work, it is rather quite difficult. Do you people have any advice, ideas or suggestion how to do it?

Also, this is just an idea of mine but... Worldshaker. Be the biggest... How about some PrC that goes the other way, towards becoming smaller and having special options due to it? ...Actually, what would it even be called...

[Rizban]

I am bringing another question to this topic-table.

The question is: We have Spellshaper. Now, I am trying to make its Psionic Equivalent. However... due to the way Psionics work, it is rather quite difficult. Do you people have any advice, ideas or suggestion how to do it?

Also, this is just an idea of mine but... Worldshaker. Be the biggest... How about some PrC that goes the other way, towards becoming smaller and having special options due to it? ...Actually, what would it even be called...
Swarmheart?

[Yasahiro]

Well, this will be very late question considering how long it's been since it existed but...

Evolutionist Anomaly and his Anomalous Ascendance. When he changes type, he does not get benefits associated with the Mutant Ascendancy, but do you gain traits of the type you turn into or do you only qualify as such for purposes of spells and such? I mean, would changing into elemental type give you immunity to critical hits and poisons or just count you as elemental for spells and feats?

[Necroticplague]

Well, this will be very late question considering how long it's been since it existed but...

Evolutionist Anomaly and his Anomalous Ascendance. When he changes type, he does not get benefits associated with the Mutant Ascendancy, but do you gain traits of the type you turn into or do you only qualify as such for purposes of spells and such? I mean, would changing into elemental type give you immunity to critical hits and poisons or just count you as elemental for spells and feats?

Yes. It doesn't say you don't gain the traits of the creature, so you gain them, like normal when you change types.

[Omnicrat]

If gestalting two classes that give mutation progression, do mutations count as an ability like sneak attack, in which you take the best progression, or spellcasting in which you take both progressions?

[EdroGrimshell]

I asked if I could use the mutations for this and I got it up and running. Been up a few days now but only just started getting rolling with some advise. So, I'm linking the Vessel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?411583-The-Vessel-(Base-Class-WIP)) here so you can have a look Draken.

[Hanuman]

Few questions about the RAI of the Sign teraomorphism:



Sign: Where the evolutionist goes he is announced by disaster, and catastrophe is what is left behind. The evolutionist continuously emits a Sign of the Apocalypse (Elder Evils, pg. 7) with a radius of 10 miles per mutator level, centered on himself, this ability cannot be deactivated. The sign can be chosen from any of the existing signs, or perhaps the player could develop a new sign to be his mark. Whenever a sign would demand a save, it uses the listed DC for the sign or the DC for mutations (based on charisma) whichever is higher. Normally, the evolutionist’s sign will be set to its Faint power, however, by concentrating on it as a standard action, he can bring the sign’s power up to Moderate, and by concentrating on it as a full round action, he can bring the sign’s power up to Strong.

(Trigger) Does using a Moderate or Strong effect trigger when using the action if it usually triggers at the start of the day or at an interval?
(Duration) How long does the effect last? If the effect has a stated duration does it only persist while concentrating and using up your actions?
(Interval) In the case that an effect happens every 1d4 days, does that become the recharge duration for it? Or does duration and interval work together to make a resource such as if it had a 1 hour duration you could concentrate for an amount of time equal to the duration, split up as you wish within that interval?

Thanks, please offer your thoughts, guys! :smallsmile:

[Yasahiro]

Has there ever been a mutation list or such for Deathless?

Their main issue is that positive energy is rarely resisted and things rarely have immunity to it, unless they are other evolutionists, hm

[Draken]

I asked if I could use the mutations for this and I got it up and running. Been up a few days now but only just started getting rolling with some advise. So, I'm linking the Vessel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?411583-The-Vessel-(Base-Class-WIP)) here so you can have a look Draken.

Sorry for the delayed response Edro, I took a look and it seemed fine if unusably incomplete (at the time I checked, haven't looked since).


Few questions about the RAI of the Sign teraomorphism:



(Trigger) Does using a Moderate or Strong effect trigger when using the action if it usually triggers at the start of the day or at an interval?
(Duration) How long does the effect last? If the effect has a stated duration does it only persist while concentrating and using up your actions?
(Interval) In the case that an effect happens every 1d4 days, does that become the recharge duration for it? Or does duration and interval work together to make a resource such as if it had a 1 hour duration you could concentrate for an amount of time equal to the duration, split up as you wish within that interval?

Thanks, please offer your thoughts, guys! :smallsmile:

Activating a higher tier Sign only causes its effects to crop up while the concentration is taking place. If a sign's effects take place at specific intervals, you need to empower it at the right moment and for the whole time you want it empowered. It is simply not a fire-and-forget effect.

Also as I explained to you over Steam. Sign isn't a combat power. Sign is the apex of douchebagness. It has very little purpose besides ruining the lives of everyone for miles around.


Has there ever been a mutation list or such for Deathless?

Their main issue is that positive energy is rarely resisted and things rarely have immunity to it, unless they are other evolutionists, hm

There was an adaptation of the Undead List to shiny themes as a Band-Aid for that.

Immunities and Resistances are far from balancing factors to any type of damage anyway. They are just restraints to the usability of that damage type, more often than not. Sonic isn't a better damage type than fire in actual combat for any reason besides the fact that it is much less likely to do absolutely nothing.

[Yasahiro]

Was that Band Aid done by you or someone else? Just asking so I know what to look for. I mean, the one I saw had the Positon Smite and Positon Touch be different stuff and... dunno. Made odd.

Also:


Like any sapient magic item, the docent has an ego score (2 + total mental ability score bonuses


Ability score bonuses? But bonuses from mutations, from the every 4 level point, inherent bonuses... which bonuses is it?

[EdroGrimshell]

Sorry for the delayed response Edro, I took a look and it seemed fine if unusably incomplete (at the time I checked, haven't looked since).

It has since been updated and has Harrowings to help it out. The Links are easier to connect to as is the ability to resist corruption, new abilities to speed up connecting to Links were added, and an ability to tone down the fatigue/exhaustion from the links being severed was added. I still need more harrowings, but there are enough for playtesting now.

[Hanuman]

Activating a higher tier Sign only causes its effects to crop up while the concentration is taking place. If a sign's effects take place at specific intervals, you need to empower it at the right moment and for the whole time you want it empowered. It is simply not a fire-and-forget effect.
Thanks, that is much clearer!

[Draken]

Was that Band Aid done by you or someone else? Just asking so I know what to look for. I mean, the one I saw had the Positon Smite and Positon Touch be different stuff and... dunno. Made odd.

Strictly speaking, nobody wrote anything. The idea was simply thrown around for a few swapped names as well as trading all negative energy mentions for positive energy mentions, as well as other effects (such as darkness and desecration) for the equivalent "good" effects (aka: Light and Consecration).


Ability score bonuses? But bonuses from mutations, from the every 4 level point, inherent bonuses... which bonuses is it?

That should actually say ability score modifiers. It is just of a reiteration of the default rules for intelligent magical items.

[Orderic]

If gestalting two classes that give mutation progression, do mutations count as an ability like sneak attack, in which you take the best progression, or spellcasting in which you take both progressions?

This is something I would like to know as well, since I currently have some people who want to take two mutator classes at the same time.

[qazzquimby]

Could you explain how balance with limits on how many times a mutation can be taken works?
As I understand it, if stronger mutations can be taken fewer times, you can still just take all mutations with harder caps for more benefit from each mutation. Any time I try to use this work for reference or conversion I get stuck on that.

[Anachronity]

Am I right in understanding that the "may be taken once per x levels" clause in most mutations ignores the prerequisite level (thus evolve talent could be taken at 3rd, 4th, 8th, 12h...)? It seems like it should be Mutator Level minus required level, and then divided by x and rounded up (thus evolve talent would be available at 3rd, 7th, 11th...). It seems like the latter should be the case, but that isn't how it's worded.

Anomalous Mutation and Azure Form can be used to get floating feats, and those can be scary; floating SLA's and Psi-likes even moreso.

Psi-like abilities are typically stronger than their power level would indicate because they are automatically augmented to the maximum number of powerpoints. Allowing a mutator to potentially gain at-will usage of a 1st-level psionic power by level 9 (using Psychic Capacity and a not-unreasonable 20 Int, given that mutator has numerous ways to pump stats) is much more powerful than allowing them to do the same with a spell-like ability (and yet strangely it's easier to get at-will 1st-level psi-likes than spell-likes with your tables). Given the large number of mutations per level, a mutator psion would blow a normal psion out of the water at early levels with both number of powers known and number of powers per day. Imagine having Vigor at-will for 45 bonus hitpoints refreshable as a standard action.

Allowing the same limb to make both a slam and a claw attack is very weird, but not necessarily broken. The closest thing to a standard convention for slams is the one-slam two-slam rule: a creature with one slam attack does not use its arms to make the attack (it's more like a full-body check) while a creature with two slams (such as a giant) does. At any rate, allowing slams and claws to stack on the same limb is not necessary when you can grow extra limbs.

Nimble Form, Powerful Form, Resilient Form, and their mental cousins seem like they should be basic mutations rather than innate mutations. It might also be best to mash all six of them up into one single mutation that can give +2/+1 to any ability and check, but not the same one more than once until at least one other attribute has been improved. Then change the frequency to once/3 levels. As-is a single-level dip of mutator can get you +2 to all ability scores and +1 to all ability and skill checks, which is definitely worth at least +1 LA. The fact that you also get a d8 hit die makes it even worse.

Consider giving fewer mutations per level (a lot fewer). Thirteen psi-like abilities is a bit much by level 4, and you still have enough left over to grab a high will save, a +2 int, +4 natural armor, and keep your manifester level on-track. Your low-level psion friend can go cry in a corner until 9th level or so.

The DC increases from Mutant Ascendancy are too much. by 10th level that's a DC 26 on your 4th-level illusion or enchantment SLA with the Fey Ascendancy, assuming a 16 starting Cha, two Cha boosts, Ability Focus taken with a floating feat, and a +4 Cloak of Cha. The highest Will Save you're probably gonna see at that level is a cleric or druid of the same level, who will have maybe a +15 save at 20 Wis and with a cloak of resistance +3, for only a 50% chance to save. Anyone else is a lost cause. That isn't much commitment on your part (6 of your 42 mutations, 16k gold, and either Anomalous Mutation or Azure Form) and not everyone you face is going to be a saving throw-minded cleric.

I would review some of your other mutations.

-Quills states that it is considered a natural attack, but never states for what purpose (or what happens when you attack with it, since you are able to do so as-worded). The quills also never fall out without a potentially very high heal check, and the way that die increases work you can be giving them a -10 (on average) to attacks, saves, and skill checks with 3d6 quills every time they hit you by level 8 (you never specify how the die increases should work past 1d6, so I assume they use the increased weapon damage by size table). You also never specify what happens after you get past colossal size). Quills should be safely removable with a successful heal check (like howler quills) and cause damage with an unsuccessful check, rather than being impossible to remove without the heal check. Impale becomes death in a round or two because of the stacking penalties, probably moreso than you intended. It also never describes how an impaled opponent may free itself; though it is presumably done with a grapple check, it is important to know what state of grappling it is in once it succeeds that check (is it still grappled, does it go free?).

-You never indicate how Spines interact with precision damage or the like. That's also quite a few attack rolls to make. I would suggest making it work like the Manyshot feat, but with the number of spines based on how many times you've taken the mutation rather than what your BAB is.



Those are just a few points I've happened to notice. I tend to be problem-oriented, so I apologize if I give you the impression of disliking the class due to focusing on the negatives. Overall you have a great concept which allows a lot of cool characters to be made. The natural attacks in particular are handled more reasonably than in most similar systems.

[Draken]

This is something I would like to know as well, since I currently have some people who want to take two mutator classes at the same time.

This question was asked of me once and I recommended that they be stacked, while also mentioning that mutator level is singular for the character and independent of his classes (and also limited by his character level), thus mutations can't be taken repeatedly "on different classes" in order to stack them beyond intended levels.

I have also warned that due to the nature of its mechanics the evolutionist has always been a troublesome little sample for gestalt. It is quite simply too good at shoring up any holes the sideclass might have in its action economy and overall lacks. So make of that what you will.


Could you explain how balance with limits on how many times a mutation can be taken works?
As I understand it, if stronger mutations can be taken fewer times, you can still just take all mutations with harder caps for more benefit from each mutation. Any time I try to use this work for reference or conversion I get stuck on that.

I am not following what the difficulty is here. Certain mutations have a hard limit to how many times they can be taken, along with the limit on how quickly further iterations can be taken and sometimes also a limit on how early they can be taken.


Am I right in understanding that the "may be taken once per x levels" clause in most mutations ignores the prerequisite level (thus evolve talent could be taken at 3rd, 4th, 8th, 12h...)? It seems like it should be Mutator Level minus required level, and then divided by x and rounded up (thus evolve talent would be available at 3rd, 7th, 11th...). It seems like the latter should be the case, but that isn't how it's worded.

It is correct that the clause ignores the prerequisite level. The prerequisite level is solely meant to put a minimum level in when these abilities can be first taken due to a personal belief that they are not proper for a character to have before such levels.


Anomalous Mutation and Azure Form can be used to get floating feats, and those can be scary; floating SLA's and Psi-likes even moreso.

Psi-like abilities are typically stronger than their power level would indicate because they are automatically augmented to the maximum number of powerpoints. Allowing a mutator to potentially gain at-will usage of a 1st-level psionic power by level 9 (using Psychic Capacity and a not-unreasonable 20 Int, given that mutator has numerous ways to pump stats) is much more powerful than allowing them to do the same with a spell-like ability (and yet strangely it's easier to get at-will 1st-level psi-likes than spell-likes with your tables). Given the large number of mutations per level, a mutator psion would blow a normal psion out of the water at early levels with both number of powers known and number of powers per day. Imagine having Vigor at-will for 45 bonus hitpoints refreshable as a standard action.

The psion gets something much more powerful than any number of fully augmented at-will low level powers, which is high level powers at appropriate levels.

And even with the floating spells/powers a full-caster/manifester evolutionist build is quite demanding in mutations and limits heavily what else you can do.


Allowing the same limb to make both a slam and a claw attack is very weird, but not necessarily broken. The closest thing to a standard convention for slams is the one-slam two-slam rule: a creature with one slam attack does not use its arms to make the attack (it's more like a full-body check) while a creature with two slams (such as a giant) does. At any rate, allowing slams and claws to stack on the same limb is not necessary when you can grow extra limbs.

I am not going to lie, I struggled with writing those lines and at some point just gave up and writing down limitations on body structure and just left the hard limit on number of attacks.

Most of the write-ups were convoluted, arcane and quite honestly incomprehensible.


Nimble Form, Powerful Form, Resilient Form, and their mental cousins seem like they should be basic mutations rather than innate mutations. It might also be best to mash all six of them up into one single mutation that can give +2/+1 to any ability and check, but not the same one more than once until at least one other attribute has been improved. Then change the frequency to once/3 levels. As-is a single-level dip of mutator can get you +2 to all ability scores and +1 to all ability and skill checks, which is definitely worth at least +1 LA. The fact that you also get a d8 hit die makes it even worse.

Basic mutations deal with formless system terms of the D&D 3.5 engine, for the most part. Whereas Innates deal with things you can translate into some form of body structure. This is all that the differentiation really means. I didn't want to even try to start imagining what a base attack bonus boost would look like.


Consider giving fewer mutations per level (a lot fewer). Thirteen psi-like abilities is a bit much by level 4, and you still have enough left over to grab a high will save, a +2 int, +4 natural armor, and keep your manifester level on-track. Your low-level psion friend can go cry in a corner until 9th level or so.

You can't have 13 psi-likes at level 4. You can have 13 psi-likes at level 13. To quote myself.


Mutations
Mutations are split into six groups: Basic, Innate, Extraordinaire, Supernatural, Spell-like and Psi-like. All evolutionists have access to these mutations. In addition to these, there are a number of special lists of mutations accessible only to evolutionists of specific creature types or who take specific feats.
Unless otherwise noted, a character can only take the same mutation up to a number of times equal to his mutator level. A character’s mutator level is equal to the sum of his levels in mutation-granting classes plus any racial hit dice or levels in racial paragon classes or monster classes he might have. Mutator level also determines the power of some mutations, and whenever a mutation allows a save, the DC is 10 + half the character’s mutator level + relevant ability modifier (see the specific mutation for this).



The DC increases from Mutant Ascendancy are too much. by 10th level that's a DC 26 on your 4th-level illusion or enchantment SLA with the Fey Ascendancy, assuming a 16 starting Cha, two Cha boosts, Ability Focus taken with a floating feat, and a +4 Cloak of Cha. The highest Will Save you're probably gonna see at that level is a cleric or druid of the same level, who will have maybe a +15 save at 20 Wis and with a cloak of resistance +3, for only a 50% chance to save. Anyone else is a lost cause. That isn't much commitment on your part (6 of your 42 mutations, 16k gold, and either Anomalous Mutation or Azure Form) and not everyone you face is going to be a saving throw-minded cleric.

50-50 on success/failure sounds ok to me. Also, balancing is really not PvP oriented.


I would review some of your other mutations.


-Quills states that it is considered a natural attack, but never states for what purpose (or what happens when you attack with it, since you are able to do so as-worded). The quills also never fall out without a potentially very high heal check, and the way that die increases work you can be giving them a -10 (on average) to attacks, saves, and skill checks with 3d6 quills every time they hit you by level 8 (you never specify how the die increases should work past 1d6, so I assume they use the increased weapon damage by size table). You also never specify what happens after you get past colossal size). Quills should be safely removable with a successful heal check (like howler quills) and cause damage with an unsuccessful check, rather than being impossible to remove without the heal check. Impale becomes death in a round or two because of the stacking penalties, probably moreso than you intended. It also never describes how an impaled opponent may free itself; though it is presumably done with a grapple check, it is important to know what state of grappling it is in once it succeeds that check (is it still grappled, does it go free?).

"X is considered a natural attack" is meant to state outright that the ability is a viable target for spells, feats and other mutations that interact with natural attacks in some manner, quills cannot, in fact, be used as part of an active attack, they are purely reactive. I will have to reword the heal check for removal, it was most certainly a mistake on my part.

Impale simply gives you the benefit of not suffering the grapple penalties for having an enemy grappled. Other than that it follows all the same rules for grappling and no court of law will blame either of us for not having full comprehension of those.


-You never indicate how Spines interact with precision damage or the like. That's also quite a few attack rolls to make. I would suggest making it work like the Manyshot feat, but with the number of spines based on how many times you've taken the mutation rather than what your BAB is.

Spines are multiple attacks, they interact with anything in much the same manner as multiple attacks would.

Manyshot, I should mention, is one of many dreadful feats and I don't consider "on par with it" to be an acceptable balance point.


Those are just a few points I've happened to notice. I tend to be problem-oriented, so I apologize if I give you the impression of disliking the class due to focusing on the negatives. Overall you have a great concept which allows a lot of cool characters to be made. The natural attacks in particular are handled more reasonably than in most similar systems.

Thanks.

[qazzquimby]

I am not following what the difficulty is here. Certain mutations have a hard limit to how many times they can be taken, along with the limit on how quickly further iterations can be taken and sometimes also a limit on how early they can be taken.
Sorry I haven't been clear. I'll try to give an exaggerated example to outline my point.

You have mutation A, that supplies a very small amount of benefit (a generic metric), say 1, to the character, and can be taken any number of times. By taking it at every opportunity, you gain a total of about 80 benefit.

There is also a set of mutations B(0)-B(infinity), each of which supply a large amount of benefit, say 10, but can only be taken once. By taking items from set B at every opportunity, you gain a total of about 800 benefit.

Hopefully that's not too abstract and weird, and I know that the difference in power (if my understanding is correct) isn't anywhere near 10x.

[Magikeeper]

Another way of saying what Qazzquimby is saying:

> Some mutations are powerful, but balance themselves by having very strict X/Level restrictions.
>> There are a good number of these powerful restricted mutations.
>>> Someone who takes every stronger mutation at every opportunity is getting more power per mutation, on average, than someone that doesn't do this.
>>>> Why take the weaker, non-restricted mutations?

Yet another way of saying it is: "Qazzquimby is confused how strict X/level restrictions balance anything when there is no reason to not take the strongest mutations whenever the class allows you to in order to be more powerful than anyone that takes fewer of these high-powered mutations than the class allows."

[Draken]

Sorry I haven't been clear. I'll try to give an exaggerated example to outline my point.

You have mutation A, that supplies a very small amount of benefit (a generic metric), say 1, to the character, and can be taken any number of times. By taking it at every opportunity, you gain a total of about 80 benefit.

There is also a set of mutations B(0)-B(infinity), each of which supply a large amount of benefit, say 10, but can only be taken once. By taking items from set B at every opportunity, you gain a total of about 800 benefit.

Hopefully that's not too abstract and weird, and I know that the difference in power (if my understanding is correct) isn't anywhere near 10x.


Another way of saying what Qazzquimby is saying:

> Some mutations are powerful, but balance themselves by having very strict X/Level restrictions.
>> There are a good number of these powerful restricted mutations.
>>> Someone who takes every stronger mutation at every opportunity is getting more power per mutation, on average, than someone that doesn't do this.
>>>> Why take the weaker, non-restricted mutations?

Yet another way of saying it is: "Qazzquimby is confused how strict X/level restrictions balance anything when there is no reason to not take the strongest mutations whenever the class allows you to in order to be more powerful than anyone that takes fewer of these high-powered mutations than the class allows."

I see.

First of all. A small point of reference that I feel needs to be mentioned. Again. Because I sort of pointed it out in bold letters in a quote on my last post.

By default, any one mutation can be taken up to once per mutator level. So they can't be taken infinitely. Unless your level is infinite. Which is not a real thing that can happen on a meaningful level.

Second of all. There are no mutations that can only be taken once that provide any sort of passive number boost. All numerical boosts are iterative, they need to be taken repeatedly to stack up.

Mutations that can only be taken once, generally speaking, provide some sort of benefit that can't be iterated on. They give a special ability, for instance. This is the case with Pounce, and Trample, and Leaves, and Earth Glide.

I hope this clarifies that. My personal understanding as it stands is that you are worrying over a situation that can't happen due to lack of common ground between the two points of contention.

[qazzquimby]

My argument might have gotten confused behind the exaggerated numbers, since unlimited mutations don't exist (I swear I knew that, just somehow not while writing that post) and once ever mutations are generally special cases.

If you instead compare taking once per level mutations that give small bonuses versus taking once per 4-6 levels or so that give large bonuses, maybe my point will stand.

Or to put it another way, if you consider the ability granted by each mutation to be a benefit that scales to your level, so long as you pay a mutation whenever you are able, a mutation that gives a greater benefit and can be taken less often costs fewer mutations to maintain.

[Draken]

My argument might have gotten confused behind the exaggerated numbers, since unlimited mutations don't exist (I swear I knew that, just somehow not while writing that post) and once ever mutations are generally special cases.

If you instead compare taking once per level mutations that give small bonuses versus taking once per 4-6 levels or so that give large bonuses, maybe my point will stand.

Or to put it another way, if you consider the ability granted by each mutation to be a benefit that scales to your level, so long as you pay a mutation whenever you are able, a mutation that gives a greater benefit and can be taken less often costs fewer mutations to maintain.

Right, that works better.

I do believe that, for the most part, mutations that serve the same overall purpose but scale at different speeds have their own advantages and disadvantages based on the specific nature of the bonus they give. That is their balance point.

[Yasahiro]

Okay, you guys are stuck in a loop.

Here is translation:

I think quazzquimby is referring to the fact that each mutation costs one mutation but benefits are not equal. Having 3 spine mutations vs 3 invisibility mutation. Hell. One mutation can be used for a spell like, bigger ability, higher BAB... OR SUCH THINGS LIKE constant invisibility. CONSTANT. Or more arms, which alread provides one with more attacks at level 4.

It is mostly that mutation does not equal another mutation when you look at the power of some of them.

Is that right?

[Necroticplague]

Because of a lot of the most powerful mutations don't synergize with each other, so going that route just gives you a big grab-bag of random abilities that don't add up to being more powerful than a mutator who picked 'weaker' mutations that synergized to produce something more useful when combined.

[Anachronity]

The psion gets something much more powerful than any number of fully augmented at-will low level powers, which is high level powers at appropriate levels.

And even with the floating spells/powers a full-caster/manifester evolutionist build is quite demanding in mutations and limits heavily what else you can do.

I'm saying that fully augmented low level powers are much closer to high level powers at appropriate levels than is the case for low level and high level spells. The table is out-of-line with the table for arcane spells from the same source. The class should at least be balanced with itself, right? A class should also be balanced for all levels of play, as much as possible (though this is certainly not the case for the Player's Handbook, so I guess you've got me there).



I am not going to lie, I struggled with writing those lines and at some point just gave up and writing down limitations on body structure and just left the hard limit on number of attacks.

Most of the write-ups were convoluted, arcane and quite honestly incomprehensible.

That's a lot of the problem with single-handedly writing a whole new system to be on-par with spellcasting. There's just too many options to need to write for one person not to make mistakes (and I'm not singling you out here, gramarie is not even close to balanced despite all the attention it gets). Honestly this is even apparent in a lot of the real WotC material.



Basic mutations deal with formless system terms of the D&D 3.5 engine, for the most part. Whereas Innates deal with things you can translate into some form of body structure. This is all that the differentiation really means. I didn't want to even try to start imagining what a base attack bonus boost would look like.

It's pretty easy to imagine what it might look like to become better at jumping or hiding, but those are basic mutations. Similarly it would be pretty hard to define exactly how a +2 bonus to Charisma manifests. After a certain point I would think it should also be a matter of logical groupings: basic mutations change the basic stats of your character (or at least that's the impression I got by reading), which I think attributes would qualify for. It may not be what you intended, but it's a lot more clean than saying "these are not basic mutations, but they work exactly like basic mutations anyways".



You can't have 13 psi-likes at level 4. You can have 13 psi-likes at level 13.

Hrm, my mistake. That actually solves a lot of problems right there. Now I feel like that guy who calls psionics broken because they don't know about the 1 psp per level limit :smalltongue:



50-50 on success/failure sounds ok to me. Also, balancing is really not PvP oriented.

A cleric can also be a bad guy. The cleric is meant to represent the absolute highest will saves you are likely to find; in reality they will be a good 4+ points lower (not everyone has a +3 cloak of resistance or 20 wisdom). It's not that it's worse than what a wizard/sorcerer could do, it's simply that it requires less commitment.



Spines are multiple attacks, they interact with anything in much the same manner as multiple attacks would.

Manyshot, I should mention, is one of many dreadful feats and I don't consider "on par with it" to be an acceptable balance point.

It's certainly not a great feat, but I think it's better than "dreadful". Feeling obliged to make every new option at least as good as the best options already available is how power creep happens. It's even a little bit better than a totemist's Manticore Belt, and that is one of their best offensive options.

[Draken]

Okay, you guys are stuck in a loop.

Here is translation:

I think quazzquimby is referring to the fact that each mutation costs one mutation but benefits are not equal. Having 3 spine mutations vs 3 invisibility mutation. Hell. One mutation can be used for a spell like, bigger ability, higher BAB... OR SUCH THINGS LIKE constant invisibility. CONSTANT. Or more arms, which alread provides one with more attacks at level 4.

It is mostly that mutation does not equal another mutation when you look at the power of some of them.

Is that right?


Because of a lot of the most powerful mutations don't synergize with each other, so going that route just gives you a big grab-bag of random abilities that don't add up to being more powerful than a mutator who picked 'weaker' mutations that synergized to produce something more useful when combined.

Here is to hoping that Necroticplague's answer is what was desired. This is quite excellent.


I'm saying that fully augmented low level powers are much closer to high level powers at appropriate levels than is the case for low level and high level spells. The table is out-of-line with the table for arcane spells from the same source. The class should at least be balanced with itself, right? A class should also be balanced for all levels of play, as much as possible (though this is certainly not the case for the Player's Handbook, so I guess you've got me there).

I will see about reviewing the numbers.



That's a lot of the problem with single-handedly writing a whole new system to be on-par with spellcasting. There's just too many options to need to write for one person not to make mistakes (and I'm not singling you out here, gramarie is not even close to balanced despite all the attention it gets). Honestly this is even apparent in a lot of the real WotC material.

Truth be told, I always thought that part of the appeal of Gramarie is that system mastery of that extremely convoluted mechanism has amusingly overpowered results.



It's pretty easy to imagine what it might look like to become better at jumping or hiding, but those are basic mutations. Similarly it would be pretty hard to define exactly how a +2 bonus to Charisma manifests. After a certain point I would think it should also be a matter of logical groupings: basic mutations change the basic stats of your character (or at least that's the impression I got by reading), which I think attributes would qualify for. It may not be what you intended, but it's a lot more clean than saying "these are not basic mutations, but they work exactly like basic mutations anyways".

The bonuses to jumping and hiding are innates!

One other reason for the split (that ended up never paning out) was to put "chassis" affecting mutations (BAB, base saves, etc) into a single header for the purposes of a class that did not have access to basics.



Hrm, my mistake. That actually solves a lot of problems right there. Now I feel like that guy who calls psionics broken because they don't know about the 1 psp per level limit :smalltongue:

Happens to everyone.



A cleric can also be a bad guy. The cleric is meant to represent the absolute highest will saves you are likely to find; in reality they will be a good 4+ points lower (not everyone has a +3 cloak of resistance or 20 wisdom). It's not that it's worse than what a wizard/sorcerer could do, it's simply that it requires less commitment.

Well, yes. Fair point. That said it does demand commitment. To a specific ascendancy that isn't even a particularly potent creature type, and it only goes for two commonly "nope'd" spell schools.


It's certainly not a great feat, but I think it's better than "dreadful". Feeling obliged to make every new option at least as good as the best options already available is how power creep happens. It's even a little bit better than a totemist's Manticore Belt, and that is one of their best offensive options.

I am fairly sure it is actually on par with Manticore Belt? It is what I modeled it after as I recall (that and the manticore proper).

[Anachronity]

Truth be told, I always thought that part of the appeal of Gramarie is that system mastery of that extremely convoluted mechanism has amusingly overpowered results.

You're probably right, but I would think mach 3 aircraft by level 7 is a bit much. It definitely is more fun than breaking the game with wizardry, though.

EDIT: Honestly I think the problem is that I always try to balance with respect to tiers 3 to 4, while this and gramarie are going for tier 2 or so. Maybe I just need to be more flexible.


Well, yes. Fair point. That said it does demand commitment. To a specific ascendancy that isn't even a particularly potent creature type, and it only goes for two commonly "nope'd" spell schools.

Not to beat a dead horse, but psionics has access to effects from all schools of magic, and aberration is definitely a potent creature type.


I am fairly sure it is actually on par with Manticore Belt? It is what I modeled it after as I recall (that and the manticore proper).

It has a lot more range than the belt, but somehow I didn't even think to check the actual monster entry. It also grows in number of spines slightly faster than the belt, and although the belt can be swapped out more easily on any given day, you still get a lot of mutations while a totemist doesn't get all that many chakra binds. I guess you can call this one a benefit of commitment.

[Draken]

Not to beat a dead horse, but psionics has access to effects from all schools of magic, and aberration is definitely a potent creature type.

Oh. Aberration. Sorry, thought you were talking about the Fey one. I will have to review it as well.

[Anachronity]

Oh. Aberration. Sorry, thought you were talking about the Fey one. I will have to review it as well.

I was talking about both of the ones that add +3 DC. I think you're right that fey is probably okay, though.

[Defiantnight]

Not to beat a dead horse, but psionics has access to effects from all schools of magic, and aberration is definitely a potent creature type.

I mean, as far as I can tell it's not much more powerful than Fey. It just gives darkvision and immunity to Charm Person (so does Fey.. and, actually, every other type, I think.)

Edit: The immunity to Charm Person, I mean.

On another string, the Elemental ascendancy seems to be the best, aside from plant, in terms of what the type grants. Undead is neat, but I feel like there's a lot of anti-undead in D&D, and I seem to remember druids having a lot of control over plants.

I'm also able to tank and/or (Edit:) quickly kill (/edit) nearly every non-spellcasting creature in d&d up to my CR, though I haven't tested this extensively. This is mainly due to Fast Healing 10 and a cold breath weapon of 10d6 (level 14 btw.) I'm not sure if this is intended, but Verdant Servant at maximum PP for no cost, and the ability to have more than one, makes me and my 'posse' of spider-minions practically unstoppable.

Anyone else having a similar experience? My other DM refuses to allow the class (low-magic setting) because of how blatantly powerful it seems.

[Defiantnight]

Also, to my last post, yes, I did optimize it a little to hopefully never die, but still. Fast Healing 10, if nothing hits me for a round or two (Web mutation is good for that) I'm usually good to go.

[ImperatorV]

So, is the worldshaker meant to be unenterable before level 13?

[Defiantnight]

So, is the worldshaker meant to be unenterable before level 13?

You could easily enter at level 10.

Mutant ascendancy, check. 3 instances of Natural Armor easily available at level 10. Spell Resistance also needs 3 mutations, one to start, and two more for +6, so at level 10 you'd have 21 SR, and the DR and fast healing only need 1 mutation minimum.

Edit: The csecond table shows you have to wait until level 13 for the fourth of any 1/4 mutation, but that the third is available from 9-12 before it's maxed again.

[Draken]

As Defiant said, Worldshaker's intended entry level is 10.

[Gideon Falcon]

So, I've been away for a while (understatement), and coming back, I see some of the problems have been resolved, which is great. Some new ones seem to have surfaced, though- two things that come to mind first are elemental lance and fast healing. At 20th level, an evolutionist can have fast healing 15, for only 5 mutations out of a total 86, without feats or taratamorphisms. This is a little much for so little investment. The original flat one per mutation was plenty good.
Similarly, Elemental Lance deals as much damage as an eldritch blast, but then can be used multiple times on the same target- at 20th level, again for 5 mutations, you deal 10d6 damage five times, or 50d6 damage, no save. If they don't have really good touch AC, it's essentially disintegrate without a saving throw, at will. I think changing the further mutations to allow an additional target, rather than just additional attacks, would solve the problem nicely, without stepping on the warlock's toes. Perhaps making it take more mutations to fully utilize breath weapons would similarly give dragonfire adepts fair treatment.
All in all, though I was excited when the mutations per level increased before, looking with new eyes, I think you might be giving them too many. Several mutations give significant, even class-defining abilities for only a few instances, many being dificult to break down further to increase the investment (You only get half a pounce, Jack! ). Lowering the number of mutations would keep them from getting too many of these, and essentially being a gestalt character with a low chassis (which a few mutations can easily fix, as is).
Still, it's a great class, one of my favorite homebrews, it justbfels like there needs to be more reason not to take it.

[Necroticplague]

Just to be a bit clear, is Bash an attack? It doesn't mention an attack roll, so it would appear to be an auto-hit. On one hand, no attack roll means bypassing miss chances and AC, but it also means one can't crit or use PA. The way that Mual is worded also seems to support the auto-hit.

Also, what exactly applies to 'the damage of his slam attack' for Bash's multiplying? Would one's STR mod be multiplied (beyond the x1.5 for being two-handed)? What about things like Thorns or Amulets of Mighty Fists or Elemental Attack?

[Draken]

So, I've been away for a while (understatement), and coming back, I see some of the problems have been resolved, which is great. Some new ones seem to have surfaced, though- two things that come to mind first are elemental lance and fast healing. At 20th level, an evolutionist can have fast healing 15, for only 5 mutations out of a total 86, without feats or taratamorphisms. This is a little much for so little investment. The original flat one per mutation was plenty good.
Similarly, Elemental Lance deals as much damage as an eldritch blast, but then can be used multiple times on the same target- at 20th level, again for 5 mutations, you deal 10d6 damage five times, or 50d6 damage, no save. If they don't have really good touch AC, it's essentially disintegrate without a saving throw, at will. I think changing the further mutations to allow an additional target, rather than just additional attacks, would solve the problem nicely, without stepping on the warlock's toes. Perhaps making it take more mutations to fully utilize breath weapons would similarly give dragonfire adepts fair treatment.
All in all, though I was excited when the mutations per level increased before, looking with new eyes, I think you might be giving them too many. Several mutations give significant, even class-defining abilities for only a few instances, many being dificult to break down further to increase the investment (You only get half a pounce, Jack! ). Lowering the number of mutations would keep them from getting too many of these, and essentially being a gestalt character with a low chassis (which a few mutations can easily fix, as is).
Still, it's a great class, one of my favorite homebrews, it justbfels like there needs to be more reason not to take it.

One more thing to add to my reviews, for the record, this "Patch" will take awhile to come down.


Just to be a bit clear, is Bash an attack? It doesn't mention an attack roll, so it would appear to be an auto-hit. On one hand, no attack roll means bypassing miss chances and AC, but it also means one can't crit or use PA. The way that Mual is worded also seems to support the auto-hit.

Also, what exactly applies to 'the damage of his slam attack' for Bash's multiplying? Would one's STR mod be multiplied (beyond the x1.5 for being two-handed)? What about things like Thorns or Amulets of Mighty Fists or Elemental Attack?

Bash uses an attack roll. It essentially amounts to making a single attack that deals the same damage you would do with a full attack involving all the Slam attacks you could perform.

[Necroticplague]

Bash uses an attack roll. It essentially amounts to making a single attack that deals the same damage you would do with a full attack involving all the Slam attacks you could perform.

Gotcha. That makes Maul kinda weird, though. Is a person targeted by your bash if you actually hit them with it, or just attempt to hit them?

[Draken]

Gotcha. That makes Maul kinda weird, though. Is a person targeted by your bash if you actually hit them with it, or just attempt to hit them?

I will have to rewrite those for the sake of clarity, but Maul is meant to trigger when you actually hit with Bash.

[Necroticplague]

I will have to rewrite those for the sake of clarity, but Maul is meant to trigger when you actually hit with Bash.

How about something like this:

Bash
You may make a special slam attack (called a Bash) as a full-round action. This attack is considered a two handed weapon, and deals (2*amount of times this mutation has been taken) as much damage as the slam normally would, after all other modifiers.

Mual
An enemy hit by your Bash must make a Fortitude save or be stunned for 1 round.

[Defiantnight]

Is anyone else getting a blank white tab when they try to click the prestige class links?

[Necroticplague]

Nope, they're working fine for me.

[Defiantnight]

Gah, that's not fair, I didn't click delete on either of those posts.

Regardless, found the Progenitor v2, it's on page 20.

[Gideon Falcon]

In my experience, if you try to access single posts, like the prestige classes, from a tablet or mobile device, they come up white pages. If you're having the difficulty on a normal computer, though, I don't know what else to say.

[Defiantnight]

Yeah, it's from tablet. I'll go through and see what pages they're all on.

[Yasahiro]

I am experiencing a possible argument, so I want to ask.

Mutator level is equal to racial HD + levels in any mutator classes.

Does it mean that humans have 1 RHD, it is just replaced by class HD, thus qualifying for mutator feats... Or does it mean that such people like humans, aasimars, tieflings, etc, lack mutator level at all?

[Necroticplague]

I am experiencing a possible argument, so I want to ask.

Mutator level is equal to racial HD + levels in any mutator classes.

Does it mean that humans have 1 RHD, it is just replaced by class HD, thus qualifying for mutator feats... Or does it mean that such people like humans, aasimars, tieflings, etc, lack mutator level at all?

A human doesn't have any RHD. Period. They don't advance by HD, and they never have one. They lack a mutator level unless they have a level in a mutator class.

[Yasahiro]

A human doesn't have any RHD. Period. They don't advance by HD, and they never have one. They lack a mutator level unless they have a level in a mutator class.

What about Aasimars? Tieflings? Elves?

[Tacitus]

Don't think of it as RHD granting a mutator level inherently, look at it like ML gets a bonus equal to RHD so long as ML>0.
Also, 1 HD gets replaced by a character level. If you see a 1RHD not-commoner (of any 1HD race), you let me know. I want to see him slaughter cats like a person should be able to.

[Necroticplague]

What about Aasimars? Tieflings? Elves?

Likewise. They never have racial HD, and advance by character class. That's why the examples have them have one level of an NPC class instead.

[tonberrian]

Is it intentional that the epic evolutionist still gets only 3 mutations/level?

[Draken]

Is it intentional that the epic evolutionist still gets only 3 mutations/level?

That's three more class features per level than most classes get at epic.

[Bobbybobby99]

I'm certain that you've already answered this at some point in this thread, but I'm finding myself rather confused about the Spell Weavers ability to apply metamagic. It notes that it increases the spell level as normal, but I'm not sure what that means. Spell-like abilities are based off of number per day, and are individually fixed. If I can use Light at will, how does that translate? If I took persistent spell, could I apply that at will to light? Could all my light's be persistent? I would be greatly aided by some clarification on what you mean by increased level. Would it just use the number for a spell of that level per day, so a persistent light at twentieth level could be cast three times per day? What if I cast one normal light and one persistent light?
Please clarify, if you would.

[Draken]

I'm certain that you've already answered this at some point in this thread, but I'm finding myself rather confused about the Spell Weavers ability to apply metamagic. It notes that it increases the spell level as normal, but I'm not sure what that means. Spell-like abilities are based off of number per day, and are individually fixed. If I can use Light at will, how does that translate? If I took persistent spell, could I apply that at will to light? Could all my light's be persistent? I would be greatly aided by some clarification on what you mean by increased level. Would it just use the number for a spell of that level per day, so a persistent light at twentieth level could be cast three times per day? What if I cast one normal light and one persistent light?
Please clarify, if you would.

To Weave Magic, which is required to use the Spell Weaver's metamagic ability, you need an X number of arms, where X is equal to the level of the spell you intend to cast.

So to cast a persistent 4th level spell, the spell weaver would need 10 arms. Nothing else about the spell changes, including daily uses.

[Bobbybobby99]

Ah, that makes much more sense. Thanks!

[Yasahiro]

Make sure for purposes of stupidity:

If Integrated Arsenal weapon counts as natural weapon for purposes of effects that require such, can the natural weapon mutation improve it's damage? Or the Improved Natural Attack feat?

[Draken]

Make sure for purposes of stupidity:

If Integrated Arsenal weapon counts as natural weapon for purposes of effects that require such, can the natural weapon mutation improve it's damage? Or the Improved Natural Attack feat?

Sure. Filler.

[Elandris Kajar]

Is there going to be a dragon mutator feat?

[Necroticplague]

Is there going to be a dragon mutator feat?

Why would there be? Mutant Ascendancy already allows for you to become a Dragon, and all the notable traits of dragons that I'm aware of are already available as mutations.

[ArkenBrony]

the dragon ascendancy is part of the class without a feat, and all of the abilities dragons get are part of the base class' chassis. there will not be a feat because it's already part of the class.


Edit: Wow! ninja'd! I've never actually had that happen before!

[Omnicrat]

I mean, someone COULD make a PrC that lets you turn into a true dragon regarding aging and size and all that jazz...

[Draken]

I mean, someone COULD make a PrC that lets you turn into a true dragon regarding aging and size and all that jazz...

I don't think that is actually balanceable.

"Every century you become significantly more powerful in baseline numbers", sounds good on paper, but.

1. Lets be real, it will probably not ever come up in game so it may as well not be there.

2. If it does come up in game, it is not balanceable.

[Omnicrat]

I don't think that is actually balanceable.

"Every century you become significantly more powerful in baseline numbers", sounds good on paper, but.

1. Lets be real, it will probably not ever come up in game so it may as well not be there.

2. If it does come up in game, it is not balanceable.

I was thinking more you turn into a True Dragon that lays eggs, and those eggs grow up into what you are at time of laying (being their maximum potential) at time of laying. It probably gives a fair bit of size boosts. So, My idea was more Birther of Dragons than becoming a true dragon themselves.

[Yasahiro]

I was thinking more you turn into a True Dragon that lays eggs, and those eggs grow up into what you are at time of laying (being their maximum potential) at time of laying. It probably gives a fair bit of size boosts. So, My idea was more Birther of Dragons than becoming a true dragon themselves.

Make it as a PRC

[Omnicrat]

Make it as a PRC

Yes, that is what we were talking about. Making that idea as a PrC.

[Lateral]

So Energy Drain lists Ability:Charisma, but it doesn't mention a save in the text, and most Energy Drain abilities only offer a save to avoid level loss the next day. Does that ability allow a saving throw to avoid the negative levels entirely, or just to avoid permanent level loss (which would only matter at epic levels)?

Also, your mutation limits table has a few errors. 1/4 ML at MLs 17-18 should be 5, not 4; 1/5 ML has a 3 at ML 9 when it should be 2, and a 2 at ML 11 where it should be 3.

[Draken]

I was thinking more you turn into a True Dragon that lays eggs, and those eggs grow up into what you are at time of laying (being their maximum potential) at time of laying. It probably gives a fair bit of size boosts. So, My idea was more Birther of Dragons than becoming a true dragon themselves.


Make it as a PRC


Yes, that is what we were talking about. Making that idea as a PrC.

This is sort of the progenitor's thing.


So Energy Drain lists Ability:Charisma, but it doesn't mention a save in the text, and most Energy Drain abilities only offer a save to avoid level loss the next day. Does that ability allow a saving throw to avoid the negative levels entirely, or just to avoid permanent level loss (which would only matter at epic levels)?

Also, your mutation limits table has a few errors. 1/4 ML at MLs 17-18 should be 5, not 4; 1/5 ML has a 3 at ML 9 when it should be 2, and a 2 at ML 11 where it should be 3.

I think it broke when forum tables got changed. The whole thing became so awful to deal with. Should be fixed.

As for Energy Drain, it only offers a save against permanent level loss one day later, aye.

[Lateral]

For Debilitate, when you add an extra type of ability penalty, are the bonuses tracked separately? For example, if you take Debilitate five times to inflict 1d3+4 STR penalty, and then take it one more time to inflict a CON penalty, would that CON penalty be 1d3 or 1d3+4?

[Necroticplague]

For Debilitate, when you add an extra type of ability penalty, are the bonuses tracked separately? For example, if you take Debilitate five times to inflict 1d3+4 STR penalty, and then take it one more time to inflict a CON penalty, would that CON penalty be 1d3 or 1d3+4?

The latter. You only have one penalty, you can just apply it to more abilities.

[Warmatt]

Back from a forced hiatus, and I got plans. Three in fact.


One, let us tap into the myths of the Phoenix, to create a Prestige Class based around mutating into one, lots of light, fire and healing ability. Sort of a Heal-lock with some elemental ability, that is murder against Undead and Evil Outsiders.

Second, and almost utterly opposed, let us see if it might be possible to find that Death is merely the beginning, empowering the Ghastly ones to rule over hordes of the once living, spreading darkness and the cold fury of the endless night in their wake.

Lastly, something Fae. Something, primal, yet.. well, let us get rid of the Seliee and Unseelie aspects, and tap more into the mystic heritage of the fey from myth and legend. Illusion, Enchantment, nature made not quite flesh, seemingly human, yet utterly alien.


Rough draft of the Life-Ember Prestige Class (Name a WIP, and feel free to suggest better) should be up in 2-3 days.

[Defiantnight]

I look forward to seeing them o:

[Warmatt]

Still have to design about twelve abilities for the Brightborn Mutator, but here are the core features for peaching/review.





Mutations; The Brightborn Mutator gains 3 mutations per level

Least Radiance; At 1st level, the Brightborn Mutator may add their charisma modifier to all fire and positive energy damage from spell-like or supernatural abilities.

Charisma and Constitution Boost; At 3rd, 6th and 9th level, the Brightborn Mutators Charisma and Constitution scores increase by 2

Lesser Radiance; At 4th level, all Undead and Outsiders with the Evil subtype take a sacred penalty to Armor Class, Attack rolls and Saves equal to the Brightborn Mutator’s constitution modifier inside the radius of their Light Mutation. The penalty is doubled if inside the range of the Consecration Mutation.


In addition, at 8th level, Outsiders with the Evil subtype in the range of the Brightborn Mutators light mutation are damaged by positive energy as if they were undead.


Body of Radiant Flame; As they progress to becoming a Phoenix, their body becomes less flesh and blood, and more solid light and flame. At 5th level, a Brightborn Mutator is immune to Poison and Disease of all kinds, and it would by pass this immunity they gain a racial save bonus equal to their Brightborn Mutator level.


At 10th level, this ability improves, and their immunity may not be bypassed by any means.


Radiance; At 8th Level, a Brightborn mutator adds their charisma modifier to each die of Fire and Positive Energy damage from spell-like or supernatural abilities. If they have the Holy Grace Mutation, they may also add their constitution modifier to their saving throws. If they have the Divine Ward Mutation, they may also add their constitution to their deflection bonus.


Aura of Radiant Flame; At 9th level, the Brightborn Mutator is a beacon in the darkness, a creature whose vital energies roar outwards, carried on his very light. While inside the range of his Light Mutation, Undead and Outsiders with the Evil Subtype take Solar Damage equal to the Brightborn Mutators Charisma and Constitution Modifiers. Solar damage is the combination of fire and positive energy, much like how Uttercold is the combination of Cold and Negative Energy.


The damage dealt is doubled inside the range of the consecration mutation, if the Brightborn Mutator counts as the altar of a good god.


Glorious Radiance; At 10th level, the sheer light and vitality of the Brightborn Mutator knows no bounds! As their soul sears it’s way to life, they complete the transformation into a Phoenix, a creature of the sun at once powerful healers, and destructive harbingers of woe. But, no matter how many times, they never really fall.


A number of times per day equal to their charisma modifier, they are subject to a True Resurrection, Regenerate, Greater Restoration Remove Disease, Neutralize Poison and Break Enchantment effect when they die, emerging from their ashes one round after their death, in the picture of health.

So, thoughts, ideas, tweaks?

[Defiantnight]

It's always amused me to wonder when someone would come up with "Well, I'm immune to your immunity-peircing."

Unrelated to the above post, I've been curious, the elemental teratomorphs hand out elemental subtypes. It seems to specify that they don't get their normal fly/swim speed, but are they immune to the elemental damage of their type and vulnerable to the opposite as normal for the elemental subtypes?

Edit: Oh, sorry, forgot to critique :D
At 8th level you're super-immune to disease and poison, why neutralize poison and remove disease on ressurection?

[Draken]

Ok, I will be blunt.

The proposed capstone is excessive. There are a bunch of ways to cheat death available to evolutionists but, generally speaking, they have a small number of inconveniences. Mainly losing your original body and anything that was on it, along with a few days while you regrow from your seeds/magical curse circle/miles-wide extradimentional soulspace.

None of them are instantaneous and bloody hell, none of them are doable 10+ times per day.

I mean, honestly, if you are dying every other hour, you are doing something very wrong.

[Warmatt]

I may have wrote the capstone first. Entire reason for the overlapping effects. That, and I already have the second draft of the capstone to work as a True Resurrection effect, one round later, shed all negative things... but only have Charisma Modifier*Brightborn Mutator level HP, as well as a -2 stacking racial penalty to all ability scores for a week, that Glorious Radiance or anything else does not remove. And really, that just covers getting killed via 'killed'. How many ways are there again to take someone out are there that are not lethal? As is, you just have to pummel them repeatedly to death to get it to stick.

So, get killed the first time? You get a minor penalty to everything for a day, big whoop. At the same time? You are not returning into a nice, safe environment. You are returning 1 round later, with massively lower HP, into a combat situation, where you might get killed off again. And come back even easier to kill off. Rinse and repeat. And of course, any non-magical items are destroyed, magical items get a saving throw to avoid taking fire damage. And if they survive? They are not equipped when you return.

The second draft may have been a more... "Damn, that thing I wrote to be cool is just a bit overpowered".

[Rizban]

It could just leave an egg behind that takes X amount of time to hatch. You come back as essentially a new creature similar to the reincarnate spell.

[Defiantnight]

Any er, reply to my question about elemental subtypes and immunities? Cold and fire are stated to explicitly grant them as subtype rules, I'm not sure if that's supposed to be kept.

[Necroticplague]

Any er, reply to my question about elemental subtypes and immunities? Cold and fire are stated to explicitly grant them as subtype rules, I'm not sure if that's supposed to be kept.

Um, the answer is fairly obvious.


Heart of the Elements [Fire]: The evolutionist gains the Fire subtype. His melee and ranged attacks with natural weapons deal an additional 1d4 points of fire damage for each teratomorphism he has. Unlike normal for the fire subtype, the evolutionist does not gain immunity to fire and does not gain vulnerability to cold. Lastly, the evolutionist gains Heat Endurance (Sandstorm) as a bonus feat.

Also, none of them give you the cold subtype. They give water, fire, earth, or air. No cold.

[Defiantnight]

Oh O.o
I don't know why I was asking then, I guess I just forgot, sorry.

[Just to Browse]

Hey Draken, after taking many breaks from D&D over several years, it's amazing to come back every time and see that this thread is still alive and thriving. You've obviously made a fantastic piece of homebrew for it to be popular for so long. Kudos.

[Defiantnight]

Is Overdrive supposed to leave out reflex when upgrading? It seems a little odd.

[Draken]

Is Overdrive supposed to leave out reflex when upgrading? It seems a little odd.

It is, yes.

[Omnicrat]

So, is there any ETA on that big update Draken talked about months ago?

Is that still coming?

I want me some craft (genetics)! :smallbiggrin:

[WarHunter]

I used this gesalted with Shifter to create bosses for an evial campaign- it fell apart due to players being unavailable.

[Defiantnight]

Any creature damaged by this ability must make a fortitude save or be blinded for 1 round (or 1 minute if undead, vulnerable to light or if it has light sensitivity).
I know undead are obviously supposed to be affected by this, but a rules-lawyer has pointed out that technically as written their non-ability of Constitution makes them immune still. I said that since undead are given as an example it means they're an exception, but he says RAW they're immune to the blinding.

I feel like even if he's right he's too strict about the RAW, since it calls undead out.

[Omnicrat]

I know undead are obviously supposed to be affected by this, but a rules-lawyer has pointed out that technically as written their non-ability of Constitution makes them immune still. I said that since undead are given as an example it means they're an exception, but he says RAW they're immune to the blinding.

I feel like even if he's right he's too strict about the RAW, since it calls undead out.

It comes down to fiat in the end, but specific beats general, as a rule. Since this calls out undead specifically, that trumps any general rule that undead would not be effected.

[Defiantnight]

It comes down to fiat in the end, but specific beats general, as a rule. Since this calls out undead specifically, that trumps any general rule that undead would not be effected.
Cool, thanks :smallsmile:

[Draken]

I know undead are obviously supposed to be affected by this, but a rules-lawyer has pointed out that technically as written their non-ability of Constitution makes them immune still. I said that since undead are given as an example it means they're an exception, but he says RAW they're immune to the blinding.

I feel like even if he's right he's too strict about the RAW, since it calls undead out.

Undead are still subject to fortitude saves that would affect objects, which the ability mentioned, being merely damage (typeless damage, at that), does.

Because it is important to note that the fortitude save is for half damage, the blinding is merely a rider, and objects are still subject to damage.

It could be difficult to interpret the rule given that the majority of fortitude-based damage abilities WotC released specifically target living creatures and as such there aren't really that many parallels to draw in this particular scenario, but there you have it.

[Defiantnight]

Undead are still subject to fortitude saves that would affect objects, which the ability mentioned, being merely damage (typeless damage, at that), does.

Because it is important to note that the fortitude save is for half damage, the blinding is merely a rider, and objects are still subject to damage.

It could be difficult to interpret the rule given that the majority of fortitude-based damage abilities WotC released specifically target living creatures and as such there aren't really that many parallels to draw in this particular scenario, but there you have it.

Ah, that makes it more clear.
Gives me something to justify some other things too, thanks :smallbiggrin:

[Orderic]

According to the ability, the save for half is a reflex save and blindness has a separate fortitude save.

[Draken]

According to the ability, the save for half is a reflex save and blindness has a separate fortitude save.

Memory derp it is. Specific trumps general then.

The explanation still stands for a bunch of other things anyway, probably.

[ted009]

Hey question can someone please explain the Mutation Limits table, I'm not really getting what it's used for?

[Milo v3]

Hey question can someone please explain the Mutation Limits table, I'm not really getting what it's used for?
It shows how many times you can take the same mutation.

[ted009]

yeah i get that but how does the table itself work i mean how do you use it to find out how many times when most of the mutations say how many times per lvls you can take them I like see like things that are 1/2, 1/3, and the like but i don't know what that means in relations to the class there's nothing that really explains the table in depth like the wizard or sorcerer tables on spells and the like all i just see is Table 2: Mutation Limits and see that it's a limit on mutations but other than that i don't know how to use the table at all? sorry if I'm being and idiot about this:smallconfused:

[Milo v3]

yeah i get that but how does the table itself work i mean how do you use it to find out how many times when most of the mutations say how many times per lvls you can take them I like see like things that are 1/2, 1/3, and the like but i don't know what that means in relations to the class there's nothing that really explains the table in depth like the wizard or sorcerer tables on spells and the like all i just see is Table 2: Mutation Limits and see that it's a limit on mutations but other than that i don't know how to use the table at all? sorry if I'm being and idiot about this:smallconfused:

Each mutation says how many times it can be taken. 1/2 ML is for when it says that it can be taken once every two mutator levels. The information on it is just above here:

Further Mutations: What the character gains from taking the mutation more times and how many times the mutation can be taken, if it has any unusual limits. If this entry is left empty, the mutation’s basic benefit is received once more (stacking with itself) whenever the mutation is taken. If a mutation can be taken “up to once per X mutator levels”, divide the character’s mutator level by ‘X’ and round the result up to determine how many instances of the mutation he can take.

[ted009]

Evolve Skills
Prerequisite: -
Ability Score: None
Benefit: The evolutionist gains 6 skill points, plus 2 additional skill points per mutator level.
Further Mutations: This mutation can be taken up to three times.

Does that mean this can be taken once per mutator levels so I could take it on 1st lvl than 2nd lvl , then 3rd or is that wrong?
Darkvision also doesn't have anything under further mutation either.
Wait why does it need a table if all the mutations say how many times and what lvls you need to wait to take it again?

[Milo v3]

Evolve Skills
Prerequisite: -
Ability Score: None
Benefit: The evolutionist gains 6 skill points, plus 2 additional skill points per mutator level.
Further Mutations: This mutation can be taken up to three times.

Does that mean this can be taken once per mutator levels so I could take it on 1st lvl than 2nd lvl , then 3rd or is that wrong?
That means you can take it up to three times.


Darkvision also doesn't have anything under further mutation either.
As the section I quoted says, you can take it an infinite amount of times, each time stacking with itself.


Wait why does it need a table if all the mutations say how many times and what lvls you need to wait to take it again?
It's faster than doing math.

[Draken]

As Milo explained, the table is there for the convenience of readers.

As for how often a mutation can be taken, consider this set of rules.

1. If it does not say "this mutation can be taken once per X mutator levels" then you can take it as many times as your mutator level.

2. If it does mention "this mutation can be taken once per X mutator levels", then check the table for the appropriate value of X. It will tell you the maximum number of repeats for any given mutator level.

3. There will sometimes be a hard cap on how many times it can be taken (either once or thrice, generally speaking). You account for this fact after you check wether points one or two apply.

----

As for the questions on when more stuff is coming... Well. Three issues there.

First. I am working on a Mythos thing. It is hilarious.

Second. My computer broke.

Third. Holidays are upon us, so even once my computer is back, I will probably fly off on vacation to some dreary southern beach with sun, sand and salt and only be back next year.

[ImperatorV]

First. I am working on a Mythos thing. It is hilarious.


What.

I can't wait. Seriously, this is going to be amazing.

[Gideon Falcon]

That will certainly be... interesting. I honestly haven't paid a whole ton of attention to Mythos, just because of the whole 'intentionally overpowered' thing. I suppose it makes sense, though, this class is on the highest end of power short of T1, so it's not as big a step up.

[Milo v3]

That will certainly be... interesting. I honestly haven't paid a whole ton of attention to Mythos, just because of the whole 'intentionally overpowered' thing. I suppose it makes sense, though, this class is on the highest end of power short of T1, so it's not as big a step up.

I'd say tier 3 or 4 to be honest, you can make a focused character really good or you can make a character who is a jack of all trades and average at everything, but you cannot make a character who is brilliant at everything. The highest it could ever be is tier 2, since tier 1 requires being able to swap out most of your stuff but this can only change a tiny portion of their stuff with teratomorphs and the PrC.

[Defiantnight]

I'd say tier 3 or 4 to be honest, you can make a focused character really good or you can make a character who is a jack of all trades and average at everything, but you cannot make a character who is brilliant at everything. The highest it could ever be is tier 2, since tier 1 requires being able to swap out most of your stuff but this can only change a tiny portion of their stuff with teratomorphs and the PrC.

The class itself is high T2, I think, but any particular build could range between T2 and T4, if you were trying hard to gimp yourself :smalltongue:

[Draken]

Class as a whole is tier 2 due to limited access to tier 1 problem solving abilities (unique to it and otherwise), but builds for it can go as "low" as tier 4 I suppose, by hyperfocusing.

[nikkoli]

Couple of questions for how stuff works Draken:
1. Where is the corrupt spell list mentioned in the Ancient mutations?
2. If you have telepathy from a source other than evolutionist can you use that to qualify for evolution?
3. Are you immune to your own psychic effusion, because the level you can get it its radius of 110 will nuke yourself every time you use it..?
4. The taint rules are those in HoH right?
I thinks thats all ive got for now.
Also, ideas for the best way to turn into a semi gaseous ball of lighting and negative energy and hatred?

[Necroticplague]

Couple of questions for how stuff works Draken:
1. Where is the corrupt spell list mentioned in the Ancient mutations?
2. If you have telepathy from a source other than evolutionist can you use that to qualify for evolution?
3. Are you immune to your own psychic effusion, because the level you can get it its radius of 110 will nuke yourself every time you use it..?
4. The taint rules are those in HoH right?
I thinks thats all ive got for now.
Also, ideas for the best way to turn into a semi gaseous ball of lighting and negative energy and hatred?

1.Book of Vile Darkness.
2.Yes. Telepathy is Telepathy.
3.Kinda. a.neither Psychic Effusion or the related Pschic Torment are called out as mind-effecting, so using it doesn't inherently trigger it, thus necessarily causing damage. b. Being subject to Psychic Effusion triggers Psychic Torment, which says that you can refrain from dealing damage as a free action.
4. Yep.

[Morphic tide]

First, I think that the Ancient Mutations should be reworked to be a bit more Karish-centric, possibly just add the Karish Broodmothers ability as a Tetramorphism or mutation and have the Mutant Ascendancy or Perfection give you the Karish subtype, with the bonuses of it. Maybe have the subtype be part of the Ascendancy and the Karish Broodmother ability as part of the Perfection. Second, what do banished forms of otherwise-normal life have to do with Elder Evil and Far Realm weirdness? Either make those their own thing and have the Ancient Mutations be Karish-centric, or rename and refluff the thing to fit them. Third, the Broodmother's entry does not state that it gets Mutator levels, which would limit it to only the mutations with no Mutator level requirements, even though the way the word is used, it seems like Mutator level is the caster level for this class.

Next, a basic outline for a build centered on the Karish Broodmother's mutation availability, with the Broodmother as the "outside".
Step one: Find the smallest race with a charisma bonus your DM will allow. Never go for medium size.
Step two: Get Ancient Mutator as a feat and go with Aberration for Mutant Perfection.
Step three: Use terramorphisms on bonus mutations, Karish companion Karish Broodmother and Burrow(for if your shell dies and you have no tanky party members to hide in... which would probably be better to build around, as 2 of your 8 level 20 tetramorphisms are spent on the Kraish).
Step four: Get Symbiosis, Proboscis(deals less damage to the host), Parasitism, Mend, Extrude and healing and buffing spell-like abilities, with boosts to charisma, health and the spell like abilities as mutations. Any remaining mutations should be spent on reach, tentacles and constitution poison, in decreasing priority.
Step five: Find the toughest vermin or ooze you can fit in to use as your Karish Broodmother. For her minions, pick the highest damage you can find.
Step six: Have all mutations on the Broodmother be energy damage attacks(Breath Weapon and elemental nimbus required, ooze if tanking things with natural weapons), survivability(health, healing, AC and damage reduction, with Carrion Swarm required), and further healing and buffing spell likes with boosts to fill empty mutations.
Step seven: Have fun as a self healing, self buffing crowd clearing murderbeast with backup.

Lastly, an outline for one with the PC on the outside. It just kinda turned into a killing field trapper in a base.
Step one: Find the largest race your DM will allow, preferably with a constitution bonus. Or a race with an Essentia boost.
Step two: Get Ancient Mutator, Azure Claws and Form, and Plant Mutator as feats, then get Plant for Mutant Perfection.
Step three: Get Roots, Regeneration 2, Offensive Roots, Karish companion and Karish Broodmother for Tetramorphisms. Get Regrowth with the first Extra Terramorphism feat
Step four: Mutations, in order of decreasing priority, Damage Resistance(whenever available), constitution buff(whenever available), Web(every time it's available), Carrion Swarm, Reach(whenever available), Tentacles(whenever available), Poison(constitution, whenever available), Elemental Resistance(once for each type), healing(source doesn't matter, though a 1st level spell like will make you much better at 20), Grove(Unity, then Mire, then Living Fortress, then Verdant Host whenever it's available), Living Servant(whenever available after getting Living Fortress) then low-level buff spell likes for the remainder(as with the heal, 1st levels are amazing at 20, because they're at will). Mutations you will get once, with when to get: Hardy Damage Resistance right after first rank of Damage Resistance, Verdant Servant the level before Verdant Host and Symbiosis, Budding Creation, Spore and Fungal Growth(highest constitution damage fungus) As Soon As Possible. Your Essentia mutations will be whatever elemental damage is best, with spare mutations you can't use anywhere else into a rotation of Elemental Damage on your tentacles.
Step five: Pick the highest hit dice vermin or ooze with a ranged constitution damager or restraint/slow for the two Karish your Broodmother gets and the highest charisma vermin or ooze with 20 hit dice.
Step six: Load the Karish Broodmother with as many healing and buff spells with extra uses as you can, getting charisma as needed for spell levels. Plus Parasitism, extrude, mend and symbiosis, of course.
Step seven: You have a massive base with regenerating walls, near endless minions, constant chances at constitution damage for anyone without fungal disease immunity and are all but unkillable. Have fun running a base for constructs and undead. Actually, a party focused on base building would make this an interesting character to play. Or lay siege to, given the fact that undead and constrocts get immunity to all the big dangers.

[Draken]

1.Book of Vile Darkness.
2.Yes. Telepathy is Telepathy.
3.Kinda. a.neither Psychic Effusion or the related Pschic Torment are called out as mind-effecting, so using it doesn't inherently trigger it, thus necessarily causing damage. b. Being subject to Psychic Effusion triggers Psychic Torment, which says that you can refrain from dealing damage as a free action.
4. Yep.

Hear.


First, I think that the Ancient Mutations should be reworked to be a bit more Karish-centric, possibly just add the Karish Broodmothers ability as a Tetramorphism or mutation and have the Mutant Ascendancy or Perfection give you the Karish subtype, with the bonuses of it. Maybe have the subtype be part of the Ascendancy and the Karish Broodmother ability as part of the Perfection. Second, what do banished forms of otherwise-normal life have to do with Elder Evil and Far Realm weirdness? Either make those their own thing and have the Ancient Mutations be Karish-centric, or rename and refluff the thing to fit them. Third, the Broodmother's entry does not state that it gets Mutator levels, which would limit it to only the mutations with no Mutator level requirements, even though the way the word is used, it seems like Mutator level is the caster level for this class.

Next, a basic outline for a build centered on the Karish Broodmother's mutation availability, with the Broodmother as the "outside".
Step one: Find the smallest race with a charisma bonus your DM will allow. Never go for medium size.
Step two: Get Ancient Mutator as a feat and go with Aberration for Mutant Perfection.
Step three: Use terramorphisms on bonus mutations, Karish companion Karish Broodmother and Burrow(for if your shell dies and you have no tanky party members to hide in... which would probably be better to build around, as 2 of your 8 level 20 tetramorphisms are spent on the Kraish).
Step four: Get Symbiosis, Proboscis(deals less damage to the host), Parasitism, Mend, Extrude and healing and buffing spell-like abilities, with boosts to charisma, health and the spell like abilities as mutations. Any remaining mutations should be spent on reach, tentacles and constitution poison, in decreasing priority.
Step five: Find the toughest vermin or ooze you can fit in to use as your Karish Broodmother. For her minions, pick the highest damage you can find.
Step six: Have all mutations on the Broodmother be energy damage attacks(Breath Weapon and elemental nimbus required, ooze if tanking things with natural weapons), survivability(health, healing, AC and damage reduction, with Carrion Swarm required), and further healing and buffing spell likes with boosts to fill empty mutations.
Step seven: Have fun as a self healing, self buffing crowd clearing murderbeast with backup.

Lastly, an outline for one with the PC on the outside. It just kinda turned into a killing field trapper in a base.
Step one: Find the largest race your DM will allow, preferably with a constitution bonus. Or a race with an Essentia boost.
Step two: Get Ancient Mutator, Azure Claws and Form, and Plant Mutator as feats, then get Plant for Mutant Perfection.
Step three: Get Roots, Regeneration 2, Offensive Roots, Karish companion and Karish Broodmother for Tetramorphisms. Get Regrowth with the first Extra Terramorphism feat
Step four: Mutations, in order of decreasing priority, Damage Resistance(whenever available), constitution buff(whenever available), Web(every time it's available), Carrion Swarm, Reach(whenever available), Tentacles(whenever available), Poison(constitution, whenever available), Elemental Resistance(once for each type), healing(source doesn't matter, though a 1st level spell like will make you much better at 20), Grove(Unity, then Mire, then Living Fortress, then Verdant Host whenever it's available), Living Servant(whenever available after getting Living Fortress) then low-level buff spell likes for the remainder(as with the heal, 1st levels are amazing at 20, because they're at will). Mutations you will get once, with when to get: Hardy Damage Resistance right after first rank of Damage Resistance, Verdant Servant the level before Verdant Host and Symbiosis, Budding Creation, Spore and Fungal Growth(highest constitution damage fungus) As Soon As Possible. Your Essentia mutations will be whatever elemental damage is best, with spare mutations you can't use anywhere else into a rotation of Elemental Damage on your tentacles.
Step five: Pick the highest hit dice vermin or ooze with a ranged constitution damager or restraint/slow for the two Karish your Broodmother gets and the highest charisma vermin or ooze with 20 hit dice.
Step six: Load the Karish Broodmother with as many healing and buff spells with extra uses as you can, getting charisma as needed for spell levels. Plus Parasitism, extrude, mend and symbiosis, of course.
Step seven: You have a massive base with regenerating walls, near endless minions, constant chances at constitution damage for anyone without fungal disease immunity and are all but unkillable. Have fun running a base for constructs and undead. Actually, a party focused on base building would make this an interesting character to play. Or lay siege to, given the fact that undead and constrocts get immunity to all the big dangers.

The theme of the ancient mutations is, well, ancient things and corruption, of which Elder Evils are generally a recurring thing. That being said, the list itself has nothing to do with the EEs themselves, evolutionists don't need to actively cultuate something in order to emulate it.

Also, Broodmother is a direct upgrade to Karish (the templates stack, and Broodmother can only be applied to a Karish), so the Broodmother uses the Karish's mutator level. The two templates also give a massive number of mutations, so giving them as ascendancies/perfections as they stand would be absurd.

Should also note that the overwhelming Majority of Elder Evils have nothing to do with the Far Realm. Father Llymic is the only official one that has any ties to it, truth be told. And most aberrations have no real ties to it either (at least in 3.5's default cosmology, Eberron notwithstanding).

[Morphic tide]

By the Broodmothers ability, I mean the spawning alone, with only the Karish subtype, without the Broodmother one, as an Acendancy, the level 10 ability you can only get one of, or Perfection, the level 20 upgrade to it. One mutation per hit dice at level 20 is not extremely bad, it's usually just an extra one per level. And the Abberition one can get you 10 mutations if you spent your extra tetramorphisms on them, and there are tetramorphisms a LOT worse than 8 mutations in terms of Tier determination, like the one that gives you Burrow. Yes, things of your size category or smaller can follow, but that means that if you get a small race, most enemies can't follow. Also, your party members can follow, giving you a semi-permanent path that blocks anything that can't go through walls or burrow. And you can make underground bases, reinforced with resin to prevent cave-ins. Maybe have the Broodmother ability be a Tetramorphism 6, with the Perfection and certain mutation improvements be necessary for an Epic Feat to give the regular Karish template, having the requirements cause it to be a level 30 feat, where game balance is long dead in 3.5 anyway. And having a small set of mutations improving the spawning of the Broodmother ability would be a nice step towards making a fully Karish-centric build possible.

[Grand Arbiter]

I found this thread late last summer, and it is a truly astounding piece of work.

An idea and a question though:

Idea: An Ancient Mutation that negates/ reduces the penalty for walking on resin, and maybe further mutations provide a speed boost on resin, akin to the Zerg and their creep in Starcraft II. It could open up resin's combat utility a bit more. It could be called "Resinwalker".

Question: From reading the thread, I know that material DR added to the standard results in DR X and magic, but can the Hardy DR mutation be stacked to make it DR X and *damage type* and magic?

Please excuse spelling/grammar errors, posted from phone.
This is one of the threads that got me to finally register :) And hooray for colored text!

[Defiantnight]

I think the Worldskin has something like that, if I remember right. That would be cool though.

[Draken]

I found this thread late last summer, and it is a truly astounding piece of work.

An idea and a question though:

Idea: An Ancient Mutation that negates/ reduces the penalty for walking on resin, and maybe further mutations provide a speed boost on resin, akin to the Zerg and their creep in Starcraft II. It could open up resin's combat utility a bit more. It could be called "Resinwalker".

Question: From reading the thread, I know that material DR added to the standard results in DR X and magic, but can the Hardy DR mutation be stacked to make it DR X and *damage type* and magic?

Please excuse spelling/grammar errors, posted from phone.
This is one of the threads that got me to finally register :) And hooray for colored text!


I think the Worldskin has something like that, if I remember right. That would be cool though.

Worldskin does indeed do that, since that one is more meant to function the way creep does, whereas resin is (for the most part) solid and should be thought of more as the black stuff xenomorphs make their nest out of (but not necessarily black).

[nikkoli]

On spell likes, does the cleric list from outsider get added once you take the feat or do you need to spend a mutation to unlock cleric list then can mutate cleric SLA's?

[Omnicrat]

On spell likes, does the cleric list from outsider get added once you take the feat or do you need to spend a mutation to unlock cleric list then can mutate cleric SLA's?

lists are automatically available.

[Gideon Falcon]

So, I read it over again, and Symbiosis is way too powerful. With only one Evolutionist, it's fine, but with two it's literally the Fusion power, but better in every way:
-No XP cost
-No Power Point Cost
-No Duration limit
-Two (or more) turns per round
-Available at very low levels.

I would suggest heavily nerfing the full function, if not getting rid if it completely.

[Defiantnight]

I've never used that mutation, but it looks awesome to make a SC Archon :smallbiggrin:

[Omnicrat]

Has anyone actually played an evolutionist in game that didn't end after a session or two (or PbP equivilant)? I haven't, and I for one would like to...

[Defiantnight]

Me too... I technically have, but mostly because I was DMing.

[nikkoli]

I have. His name is Snurff. He is a gnoll who is obsessed with dragons, and Astral dragons in particular and is trying to become one. I haven't played the class past level 3 yet but I've played more than a few sessions with the same character.

[Khaibit]

I played a whisper gnome that was pretty focused on construct evolutions. It was pretty badass, he was a little ninja cyborg that basically had a mega buster in his arm (the spine launching one combined with a lot of the sonic elemental infusion one) and would launch magic missiles out of his shoulders to pick off anyone left (the construct one that lets you shoot the missiles as a swift action). We started at level 6 and he made it to level 12 before the campaign petered out 8ish months later.

[Morphic tide]

Bumping with a semi-relevant bit of talk.

I think that there should be a Fey set of mutations, as in the sort you get from those mutator feats. Speaking of the feats, there is a lack of simple ones, like a feat to give one or two extra mutations. And a small bit of rearranging of the setup, if only in a note, to make it directly compatible with the Swarmlord so you can use your Swarmlord levels to pay for evolutionist Mutations and vice versa.

[Necroticplague]

Bumping with a semi-relevant bit of talk.

I think that there should be a Fey set of mutations, as in the sort you get from those mutator feats.


This runs face-first into the same problem as introducing Ooze or Vermin as types: what would you bring? All the main notable abilities of fey are already there, there's already a fey teratomorphism. Fey is built into the base of the class as it is.

[Draken]

Bumping with a semi-relevant bit of talk.

I think that there should be a Fey set of mutations, as in the sort you get from those mutator feats. Speaking of the feats, there is a lack of simple ones, like a feat to give one or two extra mutations. And a small bit of rearranging of the setup, if only in a note, to make it directly compatible with the Swarmlord so you can use your Swarmlord levels to pay for evolutionist Mutations and vice versa.

That feat used to exist. I removed it due to simply being an one-true-choice in more or less any situation.

Necrotic addressed the issue of Fey mutations, there is simply no real material for me to use there. Fey are more about the quirks of their personality than about the unique powers they have.

And I am not sure what the idea is with the Swarmlord retrocompatibility. They use significantly different mechanics. The only synergy they really need is for a Swarmlord to add an Evolutionist to his/her Swarm, ideally a High Evolutionary. Abathur.

[Morphic tide]

This runs face-first into the same problem as introducing Ooze or Vermin as types: what would you bring? All the main notable abilities of fey are already there, there's already a fey teratomorphism. Fey is built into the base of the class as it is.

Sorry, should have checked before posting.


That feat used to exist. I removed it due to simply being an one-true-choice in more or less any situation.

Necrotic addressed the issue of Fey mutations, there is simply no real material for me to use there. Fey are more about the quirks of their personality than about the unique powers they have.

And I am not sure what the idea is with the Swarmlord retrocompatibility. They use significantly different mechanics. The only synergy they really need is for a Swarmlord to add an Evolutionist to his/her Swarm, ideally a High Evolutionary. Abathur.

What I mean is have them share a power type, to make it so that they have a similar level of compatibility to what Wizards and Sorcerers or Psions and Wilders have. Their theme is highly similar, carried out differently. Make both use Mutator levels, maybe add a bit for converting between Mutations and Evolution points, little things like that. The converting being something like 1 or 2 Evolution points for each level it takes to get the next rank of the mutation and 3 or 4 Evolution points per mutation. Just one or two sentences on it, really. I'll probably just add that to the list of things to write up, make it an alternate version of this built on the Evolution points and add some Swarmlord PRCs because that thread got locked. Possibly write more Theurge PRC stuff for things like Gramarie and an actual Theurge for the Swarmlord's stuff. Might make it a whole other thing...

[Draken]

I can't make the Swarmlord do anything, it is not my work.

Also, Psions, Wilders, Sorcerers and Wizards multiclass terribly.

[Defiantnight]

Do Hardy Damage Reduction, Aligned Damage Reduction, and Material Damage Reduction stack? I'm not sure using four mutations to get DR 3/Magic and slashing and law and adamantine is the best way to use them, but do they stack into ands or change it so DR slashing becomes DR law?

[Necroticplague]

Do Hardy Damage Reduction, Aligned Damage Reduction, and Material Damage Reduction stack? I'm not sure using four mutations to get DR 3/Magic and slashing and law and adamantine is the best way to use them, but do they stack into ands or change it so DR slashing becomes DR law?

Yes. All of them say that the weapon needs to meet certain criteria. All of those simply add more criteria.

[Defiantnight]

Yes. All of them say that the weapon needs to meet certain criteria. All of those simply add more criteria.

Wow, that was a quick response.

Cool, thank you.

[Morphic tide]

I can't make the Swarmlord do anything, it is not my work.

Also, Psions, Wilders, Sorcerers and Wizards multiclass terribly.

What I mean is a small note in this thread about compatibility, like saying 1 mutation is equivalent to some specific number of evolution points and having Swarmlord and associated PRCs count for Mutator level. And the multiclassing is not entirely terrible, because some of the class features and feat options stack together, like metamagic and metapsionic feats. And all effects dependent on manifester/caster level still go up. It's not entirely horrible, just sub-par, is what I meant

[Draken]

What I mean is a small note in this thread about compatibility, like saying 1 mutation is equivalent to some specific number of evolution points and having Swarmlord and associated PRCs count for Mutator level. And the multiclassing is not entirely terrible, because some of the class features and feat options stack together, like metamagic and metapsionic feats. And all effects dependent on manifester/caster level still go up. It's not entirely horrible, just sub-par, is what I meant

They actually don't! The caster/manifester levels for separate classes are separate.

That being said, there is mention next to where mutator level is explained that certain thematically fitting classes could be made to add to mutator level themselves, although which ones is left for individual tables to decide.

As for equivalence, it wouldn't really work. There is overlap in effects between what Evolutionists and Swarmlords can do, but what an evo can get for one mutation a Swarmlord can have to spend between 1 and 9 points for, there would simply be trouble on the side of the Swarmlord's mechanics.

That is not even to mention the simple fact that evolution points are the lowest and least important aspect of the Swarmlord's power.

[nikkoli]

Dire Body: The evolutionist’s appearance and demeanor become exponentially more ferocious. The damage die of all his natural weapons increase by one step and he gains a +1 bonus to attack rolls and natural armor plus another +1 bonus to attack rolls and natural armor for every two teratomorphisms he has. Lastly, he gains a bonus to intimidate checks equal to his mutator level.

Is the bonus to attacks only on natural attacks or attacks gained from this class or all attacks?

[Necroticplague]

Is the bonus to attacks only on natural attacks or attacks gained from this class or all attacks?

All attacks. It just says "attacks" with no qualifiers.

[Koalda Hermaus]

Hi. First time poster who loves the class and just wanted to clarify if the breath weapon mutation allows the character to pick up metabreath feats.

[Necroticplague]

Hi. First time poster who loves the class and just wanted to clarify if the breath weapon mutation allows the character to pick up metabreath feats.

Yes. Metabreath feats require a breath weapon who's cooldown is expressed in rounds. Thus, a Mutator, with a 5-round cooldown, qualifies.

[Orderic]

I also have a question concerning breath weapons. Is the damage die increase from Dragon Ascendancy 1d6->1d8->1d12 or 1d6->1d8->2d6?

[Necroticplague]

I also have a question concerning breath weapons. Is the damage die increase from Dragon Ascendancy 1d6->1d8->1d12 or 1d6->1d8->2d6?

The former. It says the singular "die". Getting more dice comes from levelling, the ascendancy makes each die bigger.

[Abadon]

Regarding the Grove mutation...

As written, when the mutator dies the grove is lost. Any exemption for when the mutator's death is known to be temporary due to innate or class abilities (rejuvenation teratomorphism, Esper Knight perfect soul, ghost rejuvenation, etc...), or if the mutator becomes undead/deathless (outside of mutant ascendency)?

When grove abilities are chosen based on temporary mutations or temporary teratomorphisms (Azure Form feat, Anomalous Mutation, Evolutionary Touch, etc...), what happens when or if those temporary effects are lost?


Which also brings up a question about the High Evolutionary's Evolutionary touch...
Can a High Evolutionary give a mutation that he has from the Azure form feat or Anomalous Mutation teratomorphism?

[Draken]

Regarding the Grove mutation...

As written, when the mutator dies the grove is lost. Any exemption for when the mutator's death is known to be temporary due to innate or class abilities (rejuvenation teratomorphism, Esper Knight perfect soul, ghost rejuvenation, etc...), or if the mutator becomes undead/deathless (outside of mutant ascendency)?

Extra text added to remedy this situation.

When grove abilities are chosen based on temporary mutations or temporary teratomorphisms (Azure Form feat, Anomalous Mutation, Evolutionary Touch, etc...), what happens when or if those temporary effects are lost?


Which also brings up a question about the High Evolutionary's Evolutionary touch...
Can a High Evolutionary give a mutation that he has from the Azure form feat or Anomalous Mutation teratomorphism?

Extra text added to the Granting Mutations entry to remedy the situation. Temporary Mutations cannot be granted.

There you go.

[Abadon]

There you go.
Much appreciated.

I take it you intend the grove to be treated as a creature in regards to using temporary mutations to augment it?

[Draken]

Much appreciated.

I take it you intend the grove to be treated as a creature in regards to using temporary mutations to augment it?

...? The grove is not a creature. It is a place.

[Abadon]

...? The grove is not a creature. It is a place.

One of my questions was:
"When grove abilities are chosen based on temporary mutations or temporary teratomorphisms (Azure Form feat, Anomalous Mutation, Evolutionary Touch, etc...), what happens when or if those temporary effects are lost?"

I take it I missed where you answered that?

[Draken]

One of my questions was:
"When grove abilities are chosen based on temporary mutations or temporary teratomorphisms (Azure Form feat, Anomalous Mutation, Evolutionary Touch, etc...), what happens when or if those temporary effects are lost?"

I take it I missed where you answered that?

Line expanded, temporary mutations can't serve as prerequisites for permanent ones.

[EdroGrimshell]

Line expanded, temporary mutations can't serve as prerequisites for permanent ones.

What about if they're from the same source? Such as Azure Form?

[Draken]

What about if they're from the same source? Such as Azure Form?

Well, then they aren't permanent are they?

[Abadon]

What about if they're from the same source? Such as Azure Form?

Using a temporary mutation to affect another temporary mutation, I.E.:

You put three essential in Azure Form and take the Grove, fungus, and nourishment mutations. Presumably the grove would be lost when you changed your mutation set, but while you have it can you then add either the garden or mire special features to the grove?

[Abadon]

Line expanded, temporary mutations can't serve as prerequisites for permanent ones.

How about serving using temporary mutations for permanent effects like the Create Spawn mutation...
Do you lose control when you lose the mutation or do you get to keep the cannon fodder?

[Draken]

How about serving using temporary mutations for permanent effects like the Create Spawn mutation...
Do you lose control when you lose the mutation or do you get to keep the cannon fodder?

Addressed. Also, entry renamed to Granting Mutations and Temporary Mutations.

[Omnicrat]

When and why was Arcane Capacity changed to once per two mutator levels?

[Draken]

When and why was Arcane Capacity changed to once per two mutator levels?

Long, long ago, there was a surge of redesigns for that mutation and its psionic twin. That was the result.

[Omnicrat]

Long, long ago, there was a surge of redesigns for that mutation and its psionic twin. That was the result.

Is there anyway you could be persuaded to make it once per mutator level again?

Or, at the very least, since you only get 10 now remove the fact that you can only apply it to a SLA mutation once?

Related: At epic levels, do uses per day advance for spell like abilities at the same rate of progress? Can you get 7th, 8th, and 9th level spell like abilities at epic levels?

[nikkoli]

So my friend and I are arguing over how the racial hit dice increasing mutator level would work in a gestalt/tristalt game. He is using a racial class we wrote up for titans, but is looking for his extra class.

Anyway he is thinking that because of the line saying that RHD count for increasing mutator level that he would net 2 mutator levels per character level.

I think that because the classes are mixed together to make a super class each hit die only counts for one mutator level. I understand that if it was single class he would be right, but getting double his mutator level for all effects would increase how fast he can get more powerful stuff repeatedly, like the ability boosts.

Either way, could we have some help?

[Orderic]

This is one of the reasons why, in my gestalt game, I have ruled, that you can't progress the same thing twice on a single level.

[ArkenBrony]

I have loved this class for a long while and wanted to know if there was a way to do the vampire/lich thing where all of your hit dice from any class becomes d12s. O get that you can do the increase hit point mutations, but is there anything that would transfer to other classes?

[nikkoli]

In a few threads I've seen mention of mutators vow of poverty, is that a thing and if it is where would I find it? Or should I just sift though the 40 pages of this thread to find it?

[Defiantnight]

In a few threads I've seen mention of mutators vow of poverty, is that a thing and if it is where would I find it? Or should I just sift though the 40 pages of this thread to find it?

Perhaps my google-fu isn't up to snuff, but I couldn't find it either, and it's not been mentioned in this thread as far as I can see.

But I believe it might just be VoP with more potential abuse power because it gives bonuses based on mutator level instead of class level, and mutator level can be increased with racial Hit Dice.

(This is based entirely on this comment made in this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-332557.html) thread, I have no other idea of what it is or other basis for the belief.)


Evoultionist, why, racial HD increase mutator level. And mutator vow of poverty works off mutator level, not character level. So, how much crap would you be able to buy, entering Spellweaver by 3rd level.

[Grand Arbiter]

In a few threads I've seen mention of mutators vow of poverty, is that a thing and if it is where would I find it? Or should I just sift though the 40 pages of this thread to find it?
I feel certain I've seen the full text somewhere in the thread, but I have been unable to find the page. I believe the benefits of the feat were 2 extra mutations/level and an additional teratomorphism progression at 1/5 levels (5-I, 10-II, 15-III, 20-IV).

[Draken]

So my friend and I are arguing over how the racial hit dice increasing mutator level would work in a gestalt/tristalt game. He is using a racial class we wrote up for titans, but is looking for his extra class.

Anyway he is thinking that because of the line saying that RHD count for increasing mutator level that he would net 2 mutator levels per character level.

I think that because the classes are mixed together to make a super class each hit die only counts for one mutator level. I understand that if it was single class he would be right, but getting double his mutator level for all effects would increase how fast he can get more powerful stuff repeatedly, like the ability boosts.

Either way, could we have some help?


This is one of the reasons why, in my gestalt game, I have ruled, that you can't progress the same thing twice on a single level.

Mutator level is a singular value. As usual in gestalt, if you obtain it multiple times in any given level, you only get the increase once.


I have loved this class for a long while and wanted to know if there was a way to do the vampire/lich thing where all of your hit dice from any class becomes d12s. O get that you can do the increase hit point mutations, but is there anything that would transfer to other classes?

The only way to boost your HD size is to obtain one of the templates that does so. I considered putting the HD size increase once, but it just wasn't worthwhile.


In a few threads I've seen mention of mutators vow of poverty, is that a thing and if it is where would I find it? Or should I just sift though the 40 pages of this thread to find it?


Perhaps my google-fu isn't up to snuff, but I couldn't find it either, and it's not been mentioned in this thread as far as I can see.

But I believe it might just be VoP with more potential abuse power because it gives bonuses based on mutator level instead of class level, and mutator level can be increased with racial Hit Dice.

(This is based entirely on this comment made in this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-332557.html) thread, I have no other idea of what it is or other basis for the belief.)


I feel certain I've seen the full text somewhere in the thread, but I have been unable to find the page. I believe the benefits of the feat were 2 extra mutations/level and an additional teratomorphism progression at 1/5 levels (5-I, 10-II, 15-III, 20-IV).

Using mutations for VoP was mostly in the realm of theory and never actually put to hard values. 2 mutations per level and a lowered teratomorphism progression as VoP extras was once proposed as an option.

[Defiantnight]

Does the Rake mutation deal elemental damage twice?

Rake
Prerequisite: Claws natural attack.
Ability Score: None
Benefit: The evolutionist gains two rake attacks as secondary natural weapons dealing the same damage as his claws...

Is that the same base damage or the same total damage? For instance, if both my claws dealt +1d6 fire damage, would the rakes also deal +1d6 damage, and +1d6 again for being natural weapons?

Probably rules-lawyering a little, and probably unintentional, but it was brought up and I went with 'it's the same mutation doing the fire damage, so it doesn't get doubled'.

[nikkoli]

IIRC rake is using extra limbs to scratch and tear when grappling. So since it is a different limb I would say it does not automatically get the bonus fire dice.

[Defiantnight]

Are they? :smallconfused: I didn't know they were supposed to be separate limbs. That does solve it I suppose, so thank you. :smallbiggrin:

[Necroticplague]

Are they? :smallconfused: I didn't know they were supposed to be separate limbs. That does solve it I suppose, so thank you. :smallbiggrin:

Claws are generally on your front-limb analogue, and are easy to bring to bear against any enemy. Rakes are usually on your rear-limb analogues, and are more difficult to bring to bear. In DnD, you get Rakes when you're grappling an enemy.

[Karosa]

Rake
Prerequisite: Claws natural attack.
Ability Score: None
Benefit: The evolutionist gains two rake attacks as secondary natural weapons dealing the same damage as his claws. Rakes can be used at no penalty during grapples, but can only be used when grappling or pouncing.
Rakes benefit from any other mutations applied to the evolutionist’s claws and are considered secondary natural weapons.
Further Mutations: This mutation can be taken up to once per seven mutator levels.

Judging from the bolded segment, the rakes will get the fire damage if said damage is gained from a mutation. Granted, I may have misinterpreted your question and, if so, ignore me.

[Defiantnight]

Rake
Prerequisite: Claws natural attack.
Ability Score: None
Benefit: The evolutionist gains two rake attacks as secondary natural weapons dealing the same damage as his claws. Rakes can be used at no penalty during grapples, but can only be used when grappling or pouncing.
Rakes benefit from any other mutations applied to the evolutionist’s claws and are considered secondary natural weapons.
Further Mutations: This mutation can be taken up to once per seven mutator levels.

Judging from the bolded segment, the rakes will get the fire damage if said damage is gained from a mutation. Granted, I may have misinterpreted your question and, if so, ignore me.

Oh, huh. I managed to entirely miss that bolded part despite reading it over twice. I suppose I didn't register it as important, since the damage is from a blanket '+1d6 fire damage to all natural weapons' and not a specific mutation.

[Draken]

Oh, huh. I managed to entirely miss that bolded part despite reading it over twice. I suppose I didn't register it as important, since the damage is from a blanket '+1d6 fire damage to all natural weapons' and not a specific mutation.

Since the benefit is applied "to all natural weapons" and not "to claws" rake does not double dip.

Why does this even need to be clarified. It is rules lawyering 101. Ten points from Griffindor.

[nikkoli]

So if you have elemental attack for more than one element on your slams, which are also your hands, but you are weilding a club, and pick up elemental infusion do you:
A: need elemental infusion for each element
or
B: need it once since they are on the same attack?

[Draken]

So if you have elemental attack for more than one element on your slams, which are also your hands, but you are weilding a club, and pick up elemental infusion do you:
A: need elemental infusion for each element
or
B: need it once since they are on the same attack?

B. Elemental Infusion is tied to the Natural Weapons, not to the Elemental Attacks.

[nikkoli]

Alright, so friend A thinks evolve resilience scales with mutator level, after it is taken. Friend B thinks you gain 3+level when taken and does not scale. Who is correct?

[Necroticplague]

Alright, so friend A thinks evolve resilience scales with mutator level, after it is taken. Friend B thinks you gain 3+level when taken and does not scale. Who is correct?

Friend A.

ten character minimum

[Lanth Sor]

Curiosity, why are there no mentions of systems outside standard magic and Psionic? For instance martial disciplines would make a lot of sense. I had some people argue that they don't quite fit because they are training. But a few good examples are, Tiger Claw is literally taken form the way wild animals hunt, and Riverside view is the epitome of what Charon's intended to do. If you agree I'd like to see it as an option.

[PotatoGolem]

Just as a copy editing nitpick, you use "extraordinaire" throughout when you mean "extraordinary" (at least I assume you do, since extraordinary is the term that has a RAW meaning)

[Theseventh]

So was the Kyorl’Zuraj paragon ever fleshed out somewhere? Because a google of that exact phrase only points me to this thread.

Also, was there ever a PF conversion for this? I know it would not be hard to do by hand but I was curious if there was ever an 'official' one.

[Necroticplague]

So was the Kyorl’Zuraj paragon ever fleshed out somewhere? Because a google of that exact phrase only points me to this thread.

Also, was there ever a PF conversion for this? I know it would not be hard to do by hand but I was curious if there was ever an 'official' one.

I know someone else asked, and thus draken did make a list of changes for PF.

EDIT: Found it. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?240717-The-better-man-There-is-no-such-thing-base-class&p=17865318&highlight=pathfinder#post17865318)

[Avalon®]

So was the Kyorl’Zuraj paragon ever fleshed out somewhere? Because a google of that exact phrase only points me to this thread.

Also, was there ever a PF conversion for this? I know it would not be hard to do by hand but I was curious if there was ever an 'official' one.

It's a bit light on fluff but Draken did manage to post the Kyorl'Zuraj Paragon here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18909848&postcount=1014)

[Grand Arbiter]

Some questions and a bump...

•Can the Abduction mutation be used to transport allies? If not, can there be a mutation that permits such?

•Most craft checks require artisan's tools or a -2 penalty is taken, and masterwork tools give a +2 bonus. Does this apply to Craft (resin) checks?

•Can the Elemental Attack mutation be applied to the Spores mutation from the plant mutation list?

•In the entry for the Elemental Bomb mutation, it says:
This ability can be treated as a breath weapon for the purposes of metabreath feats and similar abilities that affect these special attacks. Would Elemental Bomb gain die size increases from Dragon Ascendancy/Perfection?

[Draken]

Some questions and a bump...

•Can the Abduction mutation be used to transport allies? If not, can there be a mutation that permits such?

•Most craft checks require artisan's tools or a -2 penalty is taken, and masterwork tools give a +2 bonus. Does this apply to Craft (resin) checks?

•Can the Elemental Attack mutation be applied to the Spores mutation from the plant mutation list?

•In the entry for the Elemental Bomb mutation, it says: Would Elemental Bomb gain die size increases from Dragon Ascendancy/Perfection?

Abduction allows you to transport allies, yes.

Craft (Resin) works like any other craft skill, so tools are needed (their nature is undefined) and masterwork tools benefit the skill as normal).

Spores are considered a natural attack and thus viable for elemental attack.

Yes, Dragon Ascendancy/Perfection benefits Elemental Bomb.

[Salbazier]

Can Size Increase Terratomorphism bring an Evolutionist to size bigger than Colossal (presuming one either started from Huge size or managed to get permanent size increase from other sources)?

[Draken]

Can Size Increase Terratomorphism bring an Evolutionist to size bigger than Colossal (presuming one either started from Huge size or managed to get permanent size increase from other sources)?

Yes, do remember that Colossal+ offers no actual benefits. The Worldshaker prc does offer something to truly go beyond Colossal.

[Gideon Falcon]

Well, no benefits other than another increase in damage dice, and I think it could technically still confer the extra +4 on Intimidate against any given size since the measurement is different. Still, both those benefits are handed out in spades by other class features.

[Defiantnight]

Could you use natural invisibility to only make certain parts of your body invisible? Or is it all or nothing in regards to that? I'm wondering how to make a Spell Weaver with the aberration ascendancy, but with all invisible tentacles, so it looks like she's casting them out of nowhere.

[Necroticplague]

Could you use natural invisibility to only make certain parts of your body invisible? Or is it all or nothing in regards to that? I'm wondering how to make a Spell Weaver with the aberration ascendancy, but with all invisible tentacles, so it looks like she's casting them out of nowhere.

It's as the invisibility spell, so it turns a whole creature invisible.

[Defiantnight]

It's as the invisibility spell, so it turns a whole creature invisible.

Darn. maybe I can whip up a homebrew feat or spell for it, I don't think there's a way to do it without making one.

[Volthawk]

Since you can mostly determine mutation appearances as you like, you could probably just decide to fluff the regular mutation that way, DM willing - I mean, from what you've said it's mostly just a cool visual detail.

[Draken]

Could you use natural invisibility to only make certain parts of your body invisible? Or is it all or nothing in regards to that? I'm wondering how to make a Spell Weaver with the aberration ascendancy, but with all invisible tentacles, so it looks like she's casting them out of nowhere.

Someone's been watching Elfen Lied.

As a visual thing I would probably allow partial invisibility. But I think I would require some manner of "tell" in any situation where the rules would demand that the opponent notice you are doing something (in the case of casting, said opponent would need to be able to recognize your ample somatic components for the purposes of the Spellcraft skill).

I mean, sure. In a world where people don't actually assume that the supernatural exists they would be confused, terrified and completely blind to the flow of events, but this is a D&D 3.5 class, not Call of Cthulhu. People till the supernatural out of the ground before each sowing season. People who make a living out of fighting would just notice.

[nikkoli]

While playing this class in pathfinder, does the bonus to strength checks from powerful form apply to CMD, since it would have applied to the check to resist a combat maneuver in 3.5?

[Lanth Sor]

So for Budding Creation if I make an item that takes up less than 1/10th that mass does it take less time?
For instance we were in a dungeon, found a locked door, my 10th level evolutionist can make 30 cuft of matter, and says hold up while I make a set a lock picks. As written making the small lock picks takes 10 min, as does making a house. The party opted to punch through the door because it was going to take to long. If rate of growth is universally the same, then the lock picks should form in like 1-2 rounds given their minuscule mass in comparison my max mass.

[Draken]

While playing this class in pathfinder, does the bonus to strength checks from powerful form apply to CMD, since it would have applied to the check to resist a combat maneuver in 3.5?

Fair reminder that my wording is not Pathfinder-oriented. But I would rule that it does apply.


So for Budding Creation if I make an item that takes up less than 1/10th that mass does it take less time?
For instance we were in a dungeon, found a locked door, my 10th level evolutionist can make 30 cuft of matter, and says hold up while I make a set a lock picks. As written making the small lock picks takes 10 min, as does making a house. The party opted to punch through the door because it was going to take to long. If rate of growth is universally the same, then the lock picks should form in like 1-2 rounds given their minuscule mass in comparison my max mass.

It is a fair rule to employ for the sake of convenience. Budding creation lasts 24 hours and for basic dungeon utilities of irrelevant volume, such as lockpicks, you might as well have made a set in between waking up and having breakfast anyway.

[Defiantnight]

Someone's been watching Elfen Lied.
Heh, you caught me. :smallbiggrin:


I mean, sure. In a world where people don't actually assume that the supernatural exists they would be confused, terrified and completely blind to the flow of events, but this is a D&D 3.5 class, not Call of Cthulhu. People till the supernatural out of the ground before each sowing season. People who make a living out of fighting would just notice.
That makes sense. I'm sure I can whip up some explanation as to how they're noticed, and until then, mildly spoopy tentacles await!

[Defiantnight]

Would a level 3 gestalt Evolutionist//Ozodrin with the Unraveling Guise feat from the Malshaper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?207981-Flesh-does-not-lie-Still-It-crawls-all-over-the-place-3-5-PrC) prestige class have a Mutator Level of 6?

[Draken]

Would a level 3 gestalt Evolutionist//Ozodrin with the Unraveling Guise feat from the Malshaper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?207981-Flesh-does-not-lie-Still-It-crawls-all-over-the-place-3-5-PrC) prestige class have a Mutator Level of 6?

I was going to answer with a joke, but then gitp broke on me twice. So clear answer: No, the feat was originally never written with gestalting in mind, so I just made a change to its wording to make it clear that no.

[Defiantnight]

I was going to answer with a joke, but then gitp broke on me twice. So clear answer: No, the feat was originally never written with gestalting in mind, so I just made a change to its wording to make it clear that no.

Ah well, it was worth asking.
On a similar note, it looks like (on the surface) the Malshaper is meant to be taken at level 6, with 4 levels of Ozodrin and 1 of Evolutionist, and then you have to choose between Malshaper 10/Evolutionist 6 and Malshaper 10/Ozodrin 9, is that somewhat in the ballpark?

[Draken]

Ah well, it was worth asking.
On a similar note, it looks like (on the surface) the Malshaper is meant to be taken at level 6, with 4 levels of Ozodrin and 1 of Evolutionist, and then you have to choose between Malshaper 10/Evolutionist 6 and Malshaper 10/Ozodrin 9, is that somewhat in the ballpark?

Correct. Malshaper is meant to be taken with Ozodrin 4/Evolutionist 1 as the baseline class, leaving five additional levels (before epic) after the prestige class is completed to be distributed however you want. Be it more Evolutionist, Ozodrin, other prestige classes or something else entirely.

[khadgar567]

Would a level 3 gestalt Evolutionist//Ozodrin with the Unraveling Guise feat from the Malshaper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?207981-Flesh-does-not-lie-Still-It-crawls-all-over-the-place-3-5-PrC) prestige class have a Mutator Level of 6?
how you qualfy prc by 3rd level

[Necroticplague]

how you qualfy prc by 3rd level

You can't (due to the Strange Anatomy requirement that edges it out to 4th level).

[Defiantnight]

You can't (due to the Strange Anatomy requirement that edges it out to 4th level).

Indeed you can't, though the feat itself (which is featured in the same post as the prc) is what I was asking about, which only has the requirement of having at least one level in Ozodrin and Evolutionist.

[Grand Arbiter]

For a homebrew competition, (this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?494640-Local-Speakeasy-Home-Brewing-3-X-Competition-II-The-Wild-Side), to be precise), I had started making a mutator race to enter. I had the mechanics, but I could not get the fluff right...

It's still lacking good fluff, but I figured I'd post the crunch for now and get opinions on it. It is loosely based upon the Primal Zerg from Starcraft 2.
Also, Bump.

•Aberration type
•Choose either medium size or small size.
--base land speed is 30ft for medium, 20ft if small.
•Restless: Zerai do not require sleep. Spellcasters still require 8 hours of rest to prepare spells.
•Natural Weapon: All Zerai possess a natural weapon. They may choose to possess either an instance of the Natural Weapon mutation or the Spines mutation. Regardless of which is chosen, it may not be traded away, and counts as chosen at 1st level when considering how often a mutation may be taken.
•Natural Armor +1
•Darkvision 60ft.
•Automatic Languages: Common, Zerai, -Bonus Languages: none
•Favored class: Evolutionist
•LA+0

I had considered adding a floating +2 stat bonus, but it seemed too much for LA+0.


--One other thing. If I can manage to put together a setting, how much interest would there be in a game that was Evolutionist, Ozodrin, and Swarmlord only? (PF vitalist could be back-ported if healing is necessary.)
•I may need a co-DM. Depends on how busy I am with college.
•I have setting ideas, but no plot at the moment.


...Thoughts?

[Allnightmask]

On the extend reach and the augmented critical mutations are we able to take them multiple times? The further mutations is empty but I feel like both of them aren't as big a deal as to stop them from being used more.

[Necroticplague]

On the extend reach and the augmented critical mutations are we able to take them multiple times? The further mutations is empty but I feel like both of them aren't as big a deal as to stop them from being used more.

Yes.

Further Mutations: What the character gains from taking the mutation more times and how many times the mutation can be taken, if it has any unusual limits. If this entry is left empty, the mutation’s basic benefit is received once more (stacking with itself) whenever the mutation is taken. If a mutation can be taken “up to once per X mutator levels”, divide the character’s mutator level by ‘X’ and round the result up to determine how many instances of the mutation he can take. Since the entries blank, you can take it up to once per mutator level.

[khadgar567]

is there akashic chakra mutation in plans or shared

[Draken]

is there akashic chakra mutation in plans or shared

I have no idea what that even is. My guess is that it has something to do with Pathfinder's take of the incarnum system?

[Necroticplague]

I have no idea what that even is. My guess is that it has something to do with Pathfinder's take of the incarnum system?

That's it exactly. Dudes that made the latter 3.5 systems re-making them in PF.

So, given that this is a firmly 3.5 class, I wouldn't hold my breath, Khadgar.

[khadgar567]

That's it exactly. Dudes that made the latter 3.5 systems re-making them in PF.

So, given that this is a firmly 3.5 class, I wouldn't hold my breath, Khadgar.
Not holding just hoping we can make incarnum/ akasha using monstrosities

[Grand Arbiter]

Not holding just hoping we can make incarnum/ akasha using monstrosities

I'd imagine if you multiclassed Totemist/Evolutionist it could serve your needs. Rizban's Soul Evolutionist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13122506&postcount=33) could be an interesting way to cap off such a build.


...If someone wants a big project, they could try to make a 20-level progression version of the PRC. I'd try, but I know next to nothing about incarnum.