The better man? There is no such thing [base class]

[Defiantnight]

--One other thing. If I can manage to put together a setting, how much interest would there be in a game that was Evolutionist, Ozodrin, and Swarmlord only? (PF vitalist could be back-ported if healing is necessary.)
•I may need a co-DM. Depends on how busy I am with college.
•I have setting ideas, but no plot at the moment.


...Thoughts?

Even though this is a month old, I would be very, very interested in joining. :smallbiggrin:

[Grand Arbiter]

Even though this is a month old, I would be very, very interested in joining. :smallbiggrin:
Glad to hear. :smallbiggrin:

I probably won't get it running until a couple of months from now, though. I need to put the setting and an adventure together, and my college schedule is not very forgiving:smallyuk:. Feel free to PM any ideas you may have.

[Morphic tide]

Bumping and pointing out an inherent flaw of the way the Evolutionist has been run.

The Evolutionist is a blatant 'do everything' class. It's the only base class that uses its system, so it seems like it needs to do everything itself. That's bad class design. That is the source of many balance issues in D&D. Instead of putting everything into one base class, which makes the thing utterly insane in combinations able to obliterate game balance, it really should be a set of classes that sit down and say 'This is MY thing.'

For example, having separate base classes for Arcane, Divine and Psionic Mutators who get less mutations would make Evolutionist less... Crazy. Having over a dozen different things done by one class, when each thing can be easily given its own class to itself, makes bookkeeping and balancing a nightmare of combinatorial hell.

One of the worst things to do with a subsystem is to make only one base class that uses it. It makes the subsystem into nothing but a class feature. Look at Warlock Evocations, or the Incarnum subsystem. Warlock has only one or two fluff backgrounds and is the only base class that uses Evocations, when there could be so many different ways of using it. The Incarnum subsystem, on the other hand, has several different classes that use it which have different focuses.

Instead of one class for all the mutations, make several that have different things available. Have a half-Psionic half-Mutator, with functionally half progression in both Psionics and Mutator things, then give the Psionic mutations to them. Have a Mutator base class that gets arcane spell casting in exchange for lowered Mutator ability, then let them have spellcasting supporting mutations. Have all these other subsystems or weird things be in separated classes that focus on them, instead of just chucking it all in one base class and a pile of PRCs.

[ImperatorV]

...The whole point of the Evolutionist is it can become anything. It is good at this without being overpowered. No one has complained about it before, in fact it gets a lot of praise. Why should it be changed, other then to satisfy your own conceptions about game design?

[Morphic tide]

...The whole point of the Evolutionist is it can become anything. It is good at this without being overpowered. No one has complained about it before, in fact it gets a lot of praise. Why should it be changed, other then to satisfy your own conceptions about game design?

It's the 'without being overpowered' that I see issues with. Either the Evolutionist is overpowered because, among other things, it can pick spells from literally every spell list, or its versatility is a lie because it has so many options in one class without being OP. I hate it when a class can do literally everything without any real downside. The Evolutionist is worse than a Wizard because it can get every single thing that it feels like having that a Wizard or Erudite Psion would use on a regular basis. After all, how often does someone actually use spells and powers above 6th level that aren't Summoning or practically game breakers on their own?

My problem is specifically that one class can become anything without any need for AFCs, class variants or even actually specializing. You can grab Fireball as your only arcane spell, you can grab a single Cure spell as your only Divine spell, you don't need to put in any serious resources to get the big things. That's my problem, Evolutionist can have almost anything in the game with no need to build up to that thing. You don't work your way up the Cure spells list, you just grab Cure Severe Wounds straight away. You don't grab every level of Summon Monster, just the one level that has all the things you don't feel like getting Mutations for.

Evolutionist needs to either require specializing to get high up things, filling out slots to make it so that they are actually putting serious effort into grabbing high level spells, or it needs to be split into classes that specialize so that the number of combinations doesn't lead to an inherently broken class. If the Evolutionist can keep up with an optimized single class Wizard, then it's OP. If it can give the Erudite Psion a run for it's money, it's OP. Anything that is t1 is OP, because t1 is 'Does literally everything' territory. The Evolutionist shouldn't be able to get spell likes for 6th level spells from 3 different class lists, while also being a nearly unstoppable monster in melee.

I'll point at one thing that singlehandedly destroys any sense of balance the Evolutionist has: Anomalous Mutation. That one thing, able to be gotten at level 2, makes the Evolutionist able to easily ruin most campaigns. It gives access to a mutation that can be swapped to anything the Evolutionist can get with 5 minutes of concentration. This includes basically every spell and power available to a half-caster/manifester of the Evolutionist's level. All of them, from every class's lists. That one effect makes the Evolutionist into a t1 class because if they need an ability they could have gotten permanently, they need only 5 minutes to grab it for as long as they need it.

Being able to do anything you could ever need is exactly what makes Clerics and Druids so overwhelming. Seriously, the Evolutionist has all bad saves, 1/2 BAB and is STILL one of the most powerful classes. The tier system is about versatility, not raw power. The Evolutionist is able to do literally everything, even if you do need some specializing to fulfil a role completely competently. Grabbing specific abilities still doesn't require specializing, which is my problem.

Also: The pile of PRCs. I hate it when the only real specialization options a class has are locked behind PRCs. Seriously, look at the bloody things! One class should not have that many PRCs that only build on what the base class has baseline. Evolutionist is a mess. A massive, confusing mess of abilities that don't have an actual common theme. Sure, you can say 'evolution,' but how does that apply to getting spell likes and psi likes that still need their components? How does it apply to becoming a borderline god able to enslave souls? How does it apply to literally turning into a machine? Evolutionist needs pruning, so that it can actually specialize properly. If that requires there to be multiple specialized base classes, that's a good thing because it allows the subsystem to include much higher end abilities thanks to the specializing. It also makes it so that the subsystem actually means something, instead of just being a bloated class feature.

[JoshuaZ]

It's the 'without being overpowered' that I see issues with. Either the Evolutionist is overpowered because, among other things, it can pick spells from literally every spell list, or its versatility is a lie because it has so many options in one class without being OP. I hate it when a class can do literally everything without any real downside. The Evolutionist is worse than a Wizard because it can get every single thing that it feels like having that a Wizard or Erudite Psion would use on a regular basis. After all, how often does someone actually use spells and powers above 6th level that aren't Summoning or practically game breakers on their own?




My problem is specifically that one class can become anything without any need for AFCs, class variants or even actually specializing. You can grab Fireball as your only arcane spell, you can grab a single Cure spell as your only Divine spell, you don't need to put in any serious resources to get the big things. That's my problem, Evolutionist can have almost anything in the game with no need to build up to that thing. You don't work your way up the Cure spells list, you just grab Cure Severe Wounds straight away. You don't grab every level of Summon Monster, just the one level that has all the things you don't feel like getting Mutations for.

That's sort of the idea behind the class. They can do absolutely everything, but not as well as a specialist. But if it really does bother you and you want more specialization there's an easy fix for that: just declare that you can't take any spell-like ability of a given level greater than 1 unless you have a spell-like ability of level one less than it from the same school of magic. Make a similar rule for psil-like abilities and disciplines. That will cut down on things a lot.



Evolutionist needs to either require specializing to get high up things, filling out slots to make it so that they are actually putting serious effort into grabbing high level spells, or it needs to be split into classes that specialize so that the number of combinations doesn't lead to an inherently broken class. If the Evolutionist can keep up with an optimized single class Wizard, then it's OP. If it can give the Erudite Psion a run for it's money, it's OP. Anything that is t1 is OP, because t1 is 'Does literally everything' territory. The Evolutionist shouldn't be able to get spell likes for 6th level spells from 3 different class lists, while also being a nearly unstoppable monster in melee.

It isn't keeping up with those classes though. It gets those spells well after those classes do. When an evolutionist is getting fifth level spells, wizards are using things like Gate and Wish.



I'll point at one thing that singlehandedly destroys any sense of balance the Evolutionist has: Anomalous Mutation. That one thing, able to be gotten at level 2, makes the Evolutionist able to easily ruin most campaigns. It gives access to a mutation that can be swapped to anything the Evolutionist can get with 5 minutes of concentration. This includes basically every spell and power available to a half-caster/manifester of the Evolutionist's level. All of them, from every class's lists. That one effect makes the Evolutionist into a t1 class because if they need an ability they could have gotten permanently, they need only 5 minutes to grab it for as long as they need it..

If that bothers you, simply outlaw that one option. Note by the way that it isn't clear that this makes the Evolutionist T1 since the level of maximum effect they have access to is much lower. Imagine for sake of argument the following hypothetical class: An int-based spontaneous arcane spellcaster with spells per a day as that of an adept reduced by 1 on on every spot on their table (to a minimum of 0, and when it would become -1 indicating that they don't get that level spell at that level), and able to caster any spell spontaneously from the core sorcerer/wizard list. Now, this class would be pretty strong especially at low levels. Would it be T1? Not really, because while they have incredible versatility the overall power of their abilities doesn't scale with the level of versatility needed to be functionally T1. In the case of the evolutionist, it isn't as clear cut, both because they are even more versatile (albeit only out of combat) and because their scaling is slightly better, but the point should be clear.



Being able to do anything you could ever need is exactly what makes Clerics and Druids so overwhelming. Seriously, the Evolutionist has all bad saves, 1/2 BAB and is STILL one of the most powerful classes. The tier system is about versatility, not raw power. The Evolutionist is able to do literally everything, even if you do need some specializing to fulfil a role completely competently. Grabbing specific abilities still doesn't require specializing, which is my problem.

Again, if this really bothers you, make more abilities dependent on each other, but that's a very minor tweak.



Also: The pile of PRCs. I hate it when the only real specialization options a class has are locked behind PRCs. Seriously, look at the bloody things! One class should not have that many PRCs that only build on what the base class has baseline.

This seem really seems like an aesthetic choice about how to do design more than anything else. Do you object to the sorcerer and wizard having what amounts to two Complete books full of PRCs which essentially do that? Because that seems like a fundamental part of how 3.5 design is done.



Evolutionist is a mess. A massive, confusing mess of abilities that don't have an actual common theme. Sure, you can say 'evolution,' but how does that apply to getting spell likes and psi likes that still need their components?

This seems like a valid fluff complaint.



How does it apply to becoming a borderline god able to enslave souls? How does it apply to literally turning into a machine? Evolutionist needs pruning, so that it can actually specialize properly. If that requires there to be multiple specialized base classes, that's a good thing because it allows the subsystem to include much higher end abilities thanks to the specializing. It also makes it so that the subsystem actually means something, instead of just being a bloated class feature.

The fact that this is one of the most popular homebrew class suggests that some of your design preferences are largely not shared by a large fraction of the people on the forum.

[Warmatt]

The only thing I find annoying with the class is the Evolved Resilience tweaks. Liked it much more when it was a simple +1 HP per HD, can only take 1/2 mutator levels deal. Really, an Improved Toughness you could take ten times.


Other then that.... I think he did the supply the expensive material component part mostly to keep the balance actually. Still, not going to really get involved too much, though I shall say that I love the class.

[Gideon Falcon]

Making mutations more dependent on each other isn't a monor tweak- it's a major overhaul that's very necessary. I speak as a big fan of the class and it's idea- but it does have major problems. It can't use the individual game breakers of t1 classes like Wish and Gate, but it does have tons and tons of mutations- very few powerful combinations take up more than just a few mutations. Thus, even having interdependence in mutations doesn't limit it to a significant degree. A few instances of Elemental Lance lets you easily outpace any damage focused caster by shelling out essentially multiple polar rays every round. You can get fast healing 10, the effect of a 9th level psionic power, for 4 mutations at level 13, representing less than 10% of your mutations. The elemental aura, nimbus, and Breath Weapon mutations quickly stack up for massive damage. You can then pick up a few instances of Dominate and Charm to have several lackeys to follow you around, but they're redundant since a moderate (say, 10-30 mutations, still less than half for a 13th level mutator) investment in a single Natural Weapon type gets you more DPS than any fighter (increased die size, energy damage, bleed, augmented critical), with the mobility of an speed-focused rogue or scout (fly SLA almost at will for 2, jet twice for massive and safe movement, a feat and Speed of the Wind for +20 to fly speed a pop). For a tiny investment from a massive pool, you can not only be anything; you can be everything.

[JoshuaZ]

Making mutations more dependent on each other isn't a monor tweak- it's a major overhaul that's very necessary. I speak as a big fan of the class and it's idea- but it does have major problems. It can't use the individual game breakers of t1 classes like Wish and Gate, but it does have tons and tons of mutations- very few powerful combinations take up more than just a few mutations. Thus, even having interdependence in mutations doesn't limit it to a significant degree. A few instances of Elemental Lance lets you easily outpace any damage focused caster by shelling out essentially multiple polar rays every round. You can get fast healing 10, the effect of a 9th level psionic power, for 4 mutations at level 13, representing less than 10% of your mutations. The elemental aura, nimbus, and Breath Weapon mutations quickly stack up for massive damage. You can then pick up a few instances of Dominate and Charm to have several lackeys to follow you around, but they're redundant since a moderate (say, 10-30 mutations, still less than half for a 13th level mutator) investment in a single Natural Weapon type gets you more DPS than any fighter (increased die size, energy damage, bleed, augmented critical), with the mobility of an speed-focused rogue or scout (fly SLA almost at will for 2, jet twice for massive and safe movement, a feat and Speed of the Wind for +20 to fly speed a pop). For a tiny investment from a massive pool, you can not only be anything; you can be everything.

Hmm, this is a valid point. Let me see if this works:

Here's how I'd do it: To pick a spell-like ability of level n>1 you must have two spell-like ability of level n-1 also. Same routine for psi-like abilities.

For any other mutation type that currently doesn't have a maximum number of picks per a evolution level, you get a maximum of one every 4 levels, and the ones that are currently one every 4 become one every 5. Bump the minimum level for Elemental nimbus by 2, and bump the minimum level for any mutation have elemental nimbus as a prerequisite by 2.

Maybe then reduce the number of mutations you get? Say at every odd level other than first, get just 3 mutations rather than 4.

Do you think this set of changes would do enough?

[AvatarVecna]

The Kyorl'Zuraj are not complete. But here is a teaser:

Environmental Adaptation: The kyorl’zuraj paragon will survive even the harshest places of the cosmos. He may hold his breath for up to two hours per point of constitution. He may go without food or water for one day per point of constitution before starting to suffer of dehydration or starvation. He does not take damage from the pressure of deep water or from vacuum. As a final benefit, the paragon gains resistance to cold and fire 5, or increases existing resistances to cold and fire by 5.

I am extremely interested in this thing that wasn't yet a thing. Is this thing a thing yet?

[Draken]

I am extremely interested in this thing that wasn't yet a thing. Is this thing a thing yet?

It's on page 34, here is a link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18909848&postcount=1014).

I've added it to the lists on post 5.

[AvatarVecna]

It's on page 34, here is a link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18909848&postcount=1014).

Huzzah! Will check out now, thank you very much! :smallbiggrin:

[inuyasha]

It's on page 34, here is a link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18909848&postcount=1014).

I've added it to the lists on post 5.

So Draken! With so many different systems coming out, and 3.X still being played, are there any future plans for the Evolutionist?

[Draken]

I haven't done any proper homebrewing in years, I am afraid. It is unlikely that I will add anything new in the future.

[inuyasha]

I haven't done any proper homebrewing in years, I am afraid. It is unlikely that I will add anything new in the future.

Darn, me either. I still hope that one day I'll actually get to use this class in a game, hah.

Thank you for spending so many years building it!

[noob]

Darn, me either. I still hope that one day I'll actually get to use this class in a game, hah.

Thank you for spending so many years building it!
5e would probably get a version of that class that is so watered down it would be unrecognizable.