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View Full Version : [Question to Brewers] Why Brew? Why not make a game?



Welknair
2012-04-23, 02:00 PM
I've been thinking for a while now about two specific questions:

Why do we homebrew?
Why don't most homebrewers make their own games?


The first I'm mostly curious about. I'd imagine some brew simply so that they can use that material in their game. Some brew so others can use it. Some brew for the recognition. Some brew just for the heck of it. Why do YOU brew?

The second, is an honest question. I've seen some downright AMAZING stuff on these boards. Far, far better than in any WotC book. Some have even gone so far as to effectively write books of material. Why do so many talented 'brewers choose to only create derivitive material for D&D and other games instead of trying to make one themselves? I realize that many simply don't have the time or ambition, or reasons like that, but I'd still imagine that I'd see a lot more of those projects going on. What do you guys think about it? Why aren't you making your own game?

DonQuixote
2012-04-23, 02:47 PM
1. Because I can't make the ideas stop. My brain refuses to let me not homebrew. I started because I wanted to play a magic-user, but I hated the idea of daily spell slots. Now...I can't stop.

2. Because I actually really like the basic setup of the D&D rules. I've played D&D, GURPS, World of Darkness, Unknown Armies, and Pokémon Tabletop Adventures. All of the rules systems are good at what they try to emulate--except for Unknown Armies, which is just a mistake--but, at the end of the day, D&D just feels like home.

The Dark Fiddler
2012-04-23, 02:47 PM
I'd assume it's largely because making a full out game would be a significant increase in work. Not to mention that it's going to reach a smaller audience, as well. Much more work and far less pay-off leads to not many people wanting to do it.

Welknair
2012-04-23, 02:58 PM
1. Because I can't make the ideas stop. My brain refuses to let me not homebrew. I started because I wanted to play a magic-user, but I hated the idea of daily spell slots. Now...I can't stop.

2. Because I actually really like the basic setup of the D&D rules. I've played D&D, GURPS, World of Darkness, Unknown Armies, and Pokémon Tabletop Adventures. All of the rules systems are good at what they try to emulate--except for Unknown Armies, which is just a mistake--but, at the end of the day, D&D just feels like home.

I can certainly agree with both of these sentiments.

I think many may feel the same way about your brain spewing ideas. Once you've started brewing, it's difficult to stop. Your brain just starts having all this excess energy and devoting it towards brewing works very well.

Look at my Essays and you'll see how many games I've learned. And yet D&D feels right. It has problems out the wazoo, but you can't help but love it.


I'd assume it's largely because making a full out game would be a significant increase in work. Not to mention that it's going to reach a smaller audience, as well. Much more work and far less pay-off leads to not many people wanting to do it.

This is quite logical. But does no one wish to take the next step? I'm fairly certain that a number of the brewers here could make very successful games. Games that I would play. It would be more work, and to start less accessible, but it would also have a greater potential payoff. Imagine being able to brew for a living.

tarkisflux
2012-04-23, 03:01 PM
1) I 'brew because it's a creative outlet that I enjoy.

2) I am basically writing a new game. In pieces. And very slowly. But like The Dark Fiddler said, it's a lot more work than just writing up a few new options and it's likely to reach a pretty small audience. I'm doing it because I enjoy it, not because I ever expect to publish or sell it, so I don't really care about that stuff.

Also, I'd have to get someone to do layout for it, or learn it myself, and track down art and all the other stuff that goes into it after the writing. So maybe someday...

Grinner
2012-04-23, 03:07 PM
The first I'm mostly curious about. I'd imagine some brew simply so that they can use that material in their game. Some brew so others can use it. Some brew for the recognition. Some brew just for the heck of it. Why do YOU brew?

Because I have a hard time conforming to others' vision. Seems easier to just reinvent everything myself.


The second, is an honest question. I've seen some downright AMAZING stuff on these boards. Far, far better than in any WotC book. Some have even gone so far as to effectively write books of material. Why do so many talented 'brewers choose to only create derivitive material for D&D and other games instead of trying to make one themselves? I realize that many simply don't have the time or ambition, or reasons like that, but I'd still imagine that I'd see a lot more of those projects going on. What do you guys think about it? Why aren't you making your own game?

While I don't publish a lot of homebrew, I have been working on a d100-based game, and in my experience, it's an entirely different sort of project.

When you design a feat, class, or spell for D&D, you have a number of well-tested baselines to work from as well as lot of base material. Given these circumstances, all a homebrewer needs to do is select a concept, pick a few abilities that fit, and expand from there. Then, they can gauge the quality of their work from a number of well-understood examples, ideally at least.

Creating a derivative game involves much copy-pasting, and at some point, the homebrewer is going to ask himself,"Why am I even doing this?" If he can't respond with a good reason as to why his idea requires its own complete system, he's likely to just give up. There's no sense in reinventing the wheel, after all.

Creating a full game takes much love, care, and a metric buttload of playtesting. Creating a good game also requires a special sort of individual. They must possess the creative drive to see the project through to the end, and they must gain a complete understanding of the system and its intricacies. They must also have the presence of mind to know what they wish to accomplish and the methods with which to do so.

In other words, it's really difficult. Any act of total originality always is.

CarpeGuitarrem
2012-04-23, 03:16 PM
Yep, a complete game (I have several in various fledgling states, and I haven't even started thinking about how I'm gonna rigorously playtest any of them) takes a LOT of work, and a whole new paradigm of thought.

Plus, homebrewing is a nice way to step out on that road. It sorta looks like this...

New rule particles (feats, classes, etc.) -> new subsystems (rules for morale, disease, etc.) -> a brand new game

Djinn_in_Tonic
2012-04-23, 03:45 PM
Many homebrewers (like myself) like to improve, improve, improve everything about 3.5 they can, from mechanics to classes to how PrCs should look (i.e. homebrewing more interesting / better / alternate classes)...

If I try making a system (and I have...several), it's hard for me to settle on a ruleset long enough to MAKE anything. I constantly see how I could revise, simplify, add more options, make it more fun...and that causes me troubles in terms of long-term project design.

bobthe6th
2012-04-23, 04:14 PM
wasn't legends an outgrowth of these boards?

I brew as a bad habit I can't stop.(may try to go cold turkey over the summer, but no promises.) I brew because I find an archetype that I couldn't play realistically, and make it. I brew because my gaming group has rather throughly dissolved without a DM, and PbP just won't cut it.

now a whole new game system... sounds hard, and even more time intensive. I tend to not have the time( I don't even have the time to write a setting that I have the idea for...)

Weimann
2012-04-23, 04:31 PM
I'll be talking from an Exalted perspective, myself.


Why do we homebrew?In my case, I sometimes sporadically write material that I just think should exist. There's this cool thing I saw on TV or that struck me while I was out walking, and I can totally translate it to appropriate mechanics. It's just for fun, really; I like seeing how I can apply the system to make my vision come true in an appropriate manner.


Why don't most homebrewers make their own games?I can think of a couple of reasons. Using a known system provides something to build off. You'll not have to start from scratch with the basics, you can get right to the cool, advanced stuff.

Also, making things for a system other people know create a community. People have a common reference for what's good and not, and there can be a discourse around it in a way that probably wouldn't happen if everyone had to learn new systems for each poster.

Dust
2012-04-23, 04:41 PM
These boards have seen the birth of a few prominent systems, most notably Legend. But as so many others have said, to actually build a full-fledged ground-up top-down system is years of work and sweat and dedication as opposed to a great idea that you can transform into a workable homebrew in a few hours or days.

Furthermore, it's an awful feeling to spend a year or more of your life on a full system and then realize that you're run OUT of inspiration and good ideas. Small portions of brilliance are better than a buffet of mediocrity.

Yitzi
2012-04-23, 04:43 PM
For me, the main reason to homebrew is to try to make a better-balanced approach. As for why not make an independent game, the reason varies. For me*, it's because while D&D has some weak points mechanically, it has much that is worthwhile, and it's therefore worth fixing it rather than (or at least in addition to) making a replacement.

*Although my current project is sort of on the border between "huge remix" and "game inspired by D&D".

TravelLog
2012-04-23, 04:55 PM
1. Because I enjoy elaborating on abandoned or under appreciated concepts within an existing framework.
2. Because I don't have the time. I wish I did, but as it is I haven't been able to sit down and make new homebrew in I-don't-know-how-long. Life is busy, and I simply don't have the free-time to dedicate myself to a project like that to the degree it deserves.

T.G. Oskar
2012-04-23, 05:28 PM
I'd like to answer the second question first, because it's the bulk of what I'll say.

Essentially, creating a new game from scratch is a task that's too risky for its reward. This can be seen in one of two ways: a proprietary system, or a derivative system.

In the case of a proprietary system (one that follows none of the rules of other systems), the task is just...too arduous. Essentially, you need to think the whole concept of the game from scratch. It's not as easy to, say, invent a system that's not based on d20, the Storyteller System, Tri-Stat, GURPS, or any of the many other systems around, because you have no frames of reference to work with. It's far, far harder when done alone, because you don't have other minds contributing to your work, and you have to do not only the crunch but also the fluff. Some 'brewers make magnificent works of crunch, but they can't do good fluff, and vice-versa: think about the Gygax-Arneson duo, where Gygax was a great crunch-maker and had good grasp on flluff, but then you get Arneson who was a master worldmaker, but would have had problems publishing a system of their own. GURPS is devoid of a lot of fluff, and that worked Steve Jackson pretty, pretty well, as he could focus on the proprietary system he was developing, what with the free-form character building and the bell curve algorithm. It's not entirely impossible, but that would require a genius beyond compare. I'm not sure about Rein*Hagen, but he's not currently dealing with the fluff monster that is World of Darkness, leaving that to others. Yet, it is the most consistent system around.

So, let's make it easy: why not a derivative system? Legend, d20 Rebirth and others are derivative works of D&D, much like Exalted is a derivative work of World of Darkness and Pathfinder does the same for D&D 3.5 (except the latter is competition, the former is in-company). It's far, far easier to base yourself on some of the rules and whatnot, but then you have to consider that it's still a hard task to fulfill. You have to decide what to keep, what to change, what to remove and what to add: perhaps keep the main algorithm (the d20, the bunch of d10s, the bell curve, etc.), what to change (perhaps the skill system or the whole character creation system!), what to remove (alignment, simulation rules), and what to add (the hardest part, as while you can add little stuff, an entirely new sub-system can cause loads of trouble). And, in the end, it can be as successful as Pathfinder or as bad as...well, Pathfinder. And that's IF you manage to publish it; one homebrewer is usually out of its league when trying to make a derivative or proprietary system because of how business works.

Realizing that, it's important to notice: is it worthy to work on an excellent system working just from your natural talent? Fax probably does, but he's released very little fluff thus far; Doc Roc doesn't work alone (Rule of Cool and supporters assist him), and even then you have very little fluff; Paizo has Jason Buhlman as creative lead, but it has the power of an entire company providing new fluff and crunch for PF. Now, it's not impossible (Dungeons: The Dragoning 40K 7th Sea Edition is a formidable example of what ONE person (LawfulNice) can do, but it's mostly done as a joke and as he published (somewhat; it's really a PDF you can download for free) it, he has support of many people can do to a system (and even then, he must have had support from the fa/tg/uys).

So, would I do a system which implements all of my 'brews? Maybe, maybe not: I like to do it just for a need to fix things (I guess most 'brewers do the same, particularly if they've studied engineering or art), and maybe to fit my perceptions of what some things should be. It's a reason why I usually stay retooling classes and PrCs and rarely venture somewhere else (the deities notwithstanding, as that's some pretty easy way to handle fluff and I do it just for the heck of it). I guess that would answer the first question as well: I 'brew because I like it, and to satisfy that idea of "I need to fix things", much as I did very little with Mega Bloks and Lego.

Baron Corm
2012-04-23, 06:30 PM
Simple answer: it takes money and other resources. If you offered most homebrewers a team of publicists and marketers I'm sure that's what they'd be doing.

The Dark Fiddler
2012-04-23, 06:44 PM
This is quite logical. But does no one wish to take the next step? I'm fairly certain that a number of the brewers here could make very successful games. Games that I would play. It would be more work, and to start less accessible, but it would also have a greater potential payoff. Imagine being able to brew for a living.

A few do. I've seen several new systems spring up (usually smaller systems, but I know people have mentioned Legend and similar). I may or may not join their ranks with a beer and pretzels war game I'm developing. It's a very simple thing, with maybe five mandatory rules, and even then I've put at least a full day into considering the game, spread out over several weeks. I can see why people balk at whole systems, because this simple game already took quite a bit of work.

Jallorn
2012-04-23, 09:43 PM
I actually got into homebrewing before I ever played any roleplaying game. I had discovered DnD, and since I couldn't find a group to play with, spent my energies reading and rereading the core books, building characters, and, eventually, creating my own classes and races on the suggestion of the DMG. Now, my first creations weren't terribly good, but they were interesting. After I actually got into DnD, and discovered the joys of optimization, I was able to fully appreciate the value of being able to homebrew. So I did more, mostly so that I could use it, and I eventually reached a point where I homebrewed because I liked creating stuff that I could point to and say, with pride, I did that.

As for a brand new system, I don't really have the patience to create one from scratch, though I am working on a new game using someone else's fairly generic system, so that may change in time.

Knaight
2012-04-23, 11:41 PM
I don't homebrew much for these boards, though I do have a few projects scattered around. That said, within the Fudge community I'm fairly prolific, so I figure I might as well add my piece; I homebrew, I've also made games. Fundamentally, these are different experiences, and I do both because of that. It's equivalent to writing both short stories and novels, where it isn't as if doing one of these things is inherently better.

Generally, homebrew is where I play around with very new mechanics, try to combine things, and generally have fun and try to learn. It works well for this, and if some of my work is well liked and others use it, so much for the better. It's after these ideas have all coalesced and I have a fairly good idea of both what I want to do and how I want to do it that I set out to make systems.

The other reason is just my general lack of focus. I'm suited to short projects, which pieces of home brew generally are. I'm really not suited to long projects, as I have a habit of abandoning them midway through most of the time.

Plus, homebrew is often more usable. I can sub in a wound system of my own into Fudge, or my own skill list, or my own magic system, or my own system of technology, or whatever. If I do this, I can likely still play that game with the Fudge community. Whereas, if I make a game, it will appeal to much smaller parts of that community, and I am less likely to get to play it - though I have played Titled, which is a fully original creation.

Milo v3
2012-04-24, 02:10 AM
1. I homebrew because the game isn't part of my world yet. My campaign world had something that isn't already in the game. So I made titantic crystal men as a playable race. And then I started to convert more ideas to mechanics. And now it just seems to be the way I add new things to my world.
2. I am actually making two games of my own. One is called Sanguine Interest and is fantasy game set in Neolithic Times. The other is called Cold Embrace and is a post apocalptic radiation filled world (But is realistic and not like STALKER or Fallout).

Despite this I continue making more material for 3.5e than making any material for either of my Games. They are now more side projects I'm slowly adding to, while homebrewing is my main focus.

Lord_Gareth
2012-04-24, 02:12 AM
I mostly homebrew in order to understand the games I play better.

Dumorimasoddaa
2012-04-24, 04:51 AM
I brew as well it's just fun, I admit I'm more a writer but I have a base in statistics and have played RPGs of many stripes, systems and core mechanics.

As to why I don't try and launch my stuff as product, one it's offten derivative as hell (normally being "fixes" new options or both for existing games meant to work with in said game) often for systems that wouldn't let me if I wanted to. I've freelanced both for fluff and mechanics before though while rather unsecessfully (in the grand scheme of things) less an issue with my work more an issue of me sticking to deadlines and playing nice.

As for why I haven't tryed to ship a full from the group up game, well one of my mates has been working on a large set of settings using a base system for a while now and has one game in play testing. It's a lot of work, there's balance, there's RAW vs RAI (but you know RAI so it can easily slip past you) there's making sure your system is understandable and any complicity is needed. Then there's getting a setting for the crunch tweaking the crunch or setting to mesh better but if aiming for a similar system many games deal. Then making sure your major rules tweaks can carry over.

I mean the project I've set my self to remove "classes" almost entirely from 40k RPG and to mesh the rules so that the "settings" can all work as one and still reflect the 40k fluff is huge and possibly flawed due to how the system is ultimately built (and how each "setting" more or less changes things massively). That's only 50% if not less of what making a new system would take much more than even that.

Man on Fire
2012-04-24, 04:58 AM
I sometimes work on a setting or game for fun but they're rarerly something that could work in Dungeons & Dragons so homebrew ideas I post here wouldn't be of any use there.

Doorhandle
2012-04-24, 07:29 AM
I'm just gonna point out that TVtropes mentioned it's almost allways easier to create a fanwork than to make something from scratch, and thus it's easier to patch the rules then to make new ones.

Also, some people like fluff better than mechanics and vice versa, and seeing as D&D has prexisting verions of both, people arn't bothered by the need to sleepwalk their way through one aspect.

finally, projects are shorter, and more peacemeal. Allways a plus for the attentivness-challenged.

Just to Browse
2012-04-24, 11:27 AM
As one who has written their own RPG from scratch, I can vouch for the fact that not only is a bit more work, it is exponentially more work. Imagine being one of the people writing those sourcebooks (Xenotheurgia, Blade & Bow, Tome of Tactics), and now imagine writing 2 or 3 times that much. That's a standard RPG.

The jump from homebrew to RPG is not small, not at all.

Xechon
2012-04-24, 11:52 AM
Let me answer your question with a question. How many people are directly/indirectly supporting/helping you to create fourth land? We know of your copyright friend, who is both encouraging you and helping you see the end of the tunnel, and your players, who are at least supporting you in your cause and most likely assisting in some ways. Then, you are getting a lot of positive comments here as well, so it can't be too hard for you to keep hacking away at it.

Then, there is time/money. If you are in school, you are probably still supported by your parents, and if not, you need a job. Both of these take valuable time, and time=money. Even for people not hoping to publish, just to create a fun system with which he and his players (plus anyone who might find it online and take to it) can use, they need basic amenities. School=or>Job, and so anyone trying to make a system without getting paid for it while they are doing it is going to have a hard time running full time plus. I'd honestly be suprised if you are actually reading this.

Research and Ideas could also present difficulties, if the person is trying for a simulationist or gamist system (less so on gamist). A reaslistic setting requires knowledge of the fundamental workings of our universe, and then how to squeeze it all into a mechanic that wont be slow, hard to track, or require a NASA computer. You can see the issues there, right?

Business knowledge or access to people with such knowledge can be a large snag in the creation process for those who wish to publish. People want money, most probably don't know how to make it, and then they don't create the system because time=money, and creating it would be a waste of their time.

And there is effort. While a new system would work better, making changes to a pre-existant system is so much easier, and might work, kind of , sort of, not really. But at that point, you don't really care anymore.

Now, I don't often homebrew. In fact, I have none on these forums so far. But when I do homebrew, I do it because I want my character to be able to do something that he can't normally do, when multiclassing and fluff changes don't work. All of them to date have sucked. I am not good at homebrewing, because I try to do so in D&D, but with knowledge of the world's rules instead of D&D's. I do know D&D's rules, almost to heart, but I disagree with the level of abstraction in all of them.

I don't homebrew because I know, that to actually fix the problems I want to fix in D&D, and fix it well, I must create a new system. I must fix it well if I fix it at all, because I have a perfection complex when it comes to my RPGs. I also don't want to limit the content that is given, so this requires a lot of time and effort to make homebrewing a balanced part of the system. I have never come anywhere close to actually creating a system because of issues with time, support (friends aren't dedicated about it like me), research, and effort. I almost never have problems with ideas. I can't seem to stop thinking about them when they occur, as I am trying to perfect them. I do not plan to make money by this, I just want a good system, so the business doesn't interfere. It's just effort.

nonsi
2012-04-24, 02:40 PM
Q: Why Brew?
A: There are lots of things that 3.5 did right:

- The ability scores and modifiers
- The number of levels (20 is just right)
- Iterative attacks (the concept at least)
- Saving throws (I was talking about changing it to Fort/Ref Will ever since 1992, back in my BECMI days).
- Skills mechanics
- Feats mechanics
- Combat in general (needs some additions and modifications, but the baseline is wonderful)
- Conditions (they listed just about anything that comes to mind)
- Special attacks (they listed most of them, anyway)
- Most class features

Debihuman
2012-04-24, 03:54 PM
Why do I homebrew? Short answer -- because it is FUN.

Long answer...probably would bore the rest of you to tears, so let's just leave it as the short answer.

Why don't most homebrewers make their own games? Probably because along the way it stops being fun and becomes a chore and then work; and that is the opposite of fun.

Debby

Hyudra
2012-04-24, 05:20 PM
For me, the appeal of D&D (and 3.5 in specific) is the sheer breadth of material, the number of possibilities.

I'd rather extend these possibilities & options than create a new game and ultimately have less.