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Larkas
2012-04-23, 04:25 PM
First off, I don't read much in the way of general DMing advice like the one I'm about to ask in this forum, so I hope this is the right place to be asking it.

I'm in need of a little advice and general opinions on cosmology for a new campaign I want to run.

Basically, I want to run a Planescape campaign, and while it is pretty straightforward to adapt the setting to the 3E rules, one problem I keep running into is the Plane of Shadows. In 2E, it was merely a Demiplane located somewhere in the Ethereal Plane, but in 3E it was "promoted" to a fully-fledged Transitive Plane.

If you look at it superficially, you don't really have to bother converting it at all: it is simply a third Transitive Plane, which by the way fullfils the "Rule of Threes", which says that everything in the Multiverse always come in threes: three levels of existence (Inner Planes, Prime Material, Outer Planes); three ethical alignments; three moral alignments; etc. The problem is that the Plane of Shadow, while a Transitive Plane, is totally different from both the Ethereal and Astral Planes in that it links the Prime Material only to itself (the Ethereal links the Material to the Inner Planes in 2E). Besides, one idea that is usually thrown around in Planescape discussions and that I particularly like is that there is already a third Transitive Plane linking the Outer to the Inner Planes, where the gods live (in Planescape, the gods can't be physically found unless they want to, not even in the Outer Planes) and no mortal or its magic can hope to reach (or can they?), a plane sometimes called Ordial. Something of an unreachable Terra Incognita. As I like the idea and intend to apply it to my game, even if the players never come to know of its existence, having the Plane of Shadows as a Transitive Plane actually BREAKS the Rule of Threes.

I could "simply" remove the Plane of Shadows as a Transitive Plane and demote it back to Demiplane, but that is not simple at all: it would have all kinds of impacts on spells, creatures, classes, flavor, etc. Demiplanes are, after all, finite, even if unimaginably big, and not coterminous or coexistant with the Prime Material.

I've been toying with the idea of having the Plane of Shadows as a different kind of plane, something of a parallel Prime Material, but as much part of the "real world" as the latter. Going from one to other is much easier than going through the Astral to the Outer Planes, after all, and is pretty much a broken reflection of the Prime Material. It would be what it is in 3E, though not a Transitive Plane proper, and with links to both the Astral and the Ethereal Planes. Furthermore, from what I was reading, I could even adapt 4E's Feywild as a third "parallel Material", one where everything is pristine and more beautiful than on the Prime Material (personally, though, I'd remove Eladrin shenanigans). I don't have 4E's books, though, and I don't know how that would go. If I got it right, Feywild is somewhat like that "Spirit Plane" described in the Manual of the Planes, where everything is grander and more beautiful versions of stuff in the Prime Material. The only "problem" is the lack of spells referencing this plane, but that is easily fixable and, quite frankly, ignorable. And it has the advantage to reinforce the Rule of Threes.

I don't know how the new connections would impact the Plane of Shadows (or Shadowfell), though. Am I missing something? Any other options I haven't considered? Any input on Feywild/Shadowfell is greatly appreciated too, since I'm a little clueless on their specifics and where to read more about them. Thanks in advance for the advice!

Epsilon Rose
2012-04-23, 04:48 PM
Personally, I like having the Plane of Shadows linked to almost every other plane, mainly because without it you wouldn't have shadows and that could cause problems for some classes (high there rogues).

That said, the Plane of Shadows could easily be used as a link to other prime material planes or the far-realms.

Also, I'd like to point out that having the gods on a transitive plain seems like it would make them easier to reach, not harder. After all, the transitive planes seem to underlie their associated normal plains and are fairly easy to reach.

Unusual Muse
2012-04-23, 05:57 PM
I don't know if you've seen this, but Planescape has already been converted to 3.5 by the fine folks at Planewalker. Lots of good info, and you may find more than one suggestion (as well as the 3.5 converted rules):

http://www.planewalker.com/

Unusual Muse
2012-04-23, 06:01 PM
I don't know how the new connections would impact the Plane of Shadows (or Shadowfell), though. Am I missing something? Any other options I haven't considered? Any input on Feywild/Shadowfell is greatly appreciated too, since I'm a little clueless on their specifics and where to read more about them. Thanks in advance for the advice!

Here's some stuff that may help you address the Shadow plane issue; it's actually a 3rd-Edition conversion of the Mystara cosomology, but it's a really nice explanation of the planes and how they relate, with the addition of some material that may actually help you fit together what you're looking for:

http://www3.telus.net/strawberryjamm/mystara_d20/multiverse.html

Larkas
2012-04-23, 06:16 PM
Personally, I like having the Plane of Shadows linked to almost every other plane, mainly because without it you wouldn't have shadows and that could cause problems for some classes (high there rogues).

That said, the Plane of Shadows could easily be used as a link to other prime material planes or the far-realms.

Also, I'd like to point out that having the gods on a transitive plain seems like it would make them easier to reach, not harder. After all, the transitive planes seem to underlie their associated normal plains and are fairly easy to reach.

Actually, in 2E there was only a single Material Plane. In it, there were all the worlds possible, such as Krynn, Toril, Oerth, et al. You could get from one to other by using "mundane" travel through space and a hyperspace-like place/thing called Phlogiston (Spelljammer dealed with this) or by dimensional travel, usually passing through Sigil or something, but at least through the Astral or Ethereal. In this, the Plane of Shadows certainly could play a part, since, as parallel to the Prime Material where travel is much faster, Spelljamming could be easier (though still difficult). It wasn't exactly planar travel, though, since your starting point and your destination are in the same plane, and I'm actually considering using this. Connecting to the Far Realm, though, is not what I'm going for. The Far Realm is usually "extra-cosmological", as in "this is the Multiverse, the Far Realm is something else".

As for Transitive being reachable, this is only true if you look at what we have now: something easily breachable by anyone with enough spell power. The Ordial, however, would be something else entirely. It only communicates concepts: spirituality to the Inner Planes and matter to the Outer Planes. No one, not even the all-powerful Elementals and Outsiders ever managed to breach that veil, or even acknowledge its existence. A perfect seat for the gods, if you ask me :smallwink:


I don't know if you've seen this, but Planescape has already been converted to 3.5 by the fine folks at Planewalker. Lots of good info, and you may find more than one suggestion (as well as the 3.5 converted rules):

http://www.planewalker.com/

Oh, I am familiar with Planewalker, that site is really nice indeed :smallsmile: But they don't really touch much on the subject of the Plane of Shadows. After I posted this, however, I did find this (http://www.planewalker.com/forum/ratling-scrolls-shadowfell-feywild-and-ordial), emphasis on the reply, not the post. ripvanwormer actually suggested the same thing that I'm considering :smalleek:

Eldan
2012-04-23, 07:25 PM
Complete and utter homebrew, but I can tell you my solution for it.

There's actually a set of three semi-transitives:

The Plane of Shadows you know. It connects places of darkness on all planes.
The Plane of Mirrors connects reflective surfaces, especially those made of metal.
The Third is the Infinite Staircase. It connects places where especially creative artistic acts took place.


(Sometimes I include the plane of Faerie as well, or say that the Infinite Staircase is one of the remnants of hte destroyed Faerie, with other remnants ending up in Arborea, the Dreamscape, Pandemonium and the Outlands).

Larkas
2012-04-23, 09:09 PM
Complete and utter homebrew, but I can tell you my solution for it.

There's actually a set of three semi-transitives:

The Plane of Shadows you know. It connects places of darkness on all planes.
The Plane of Mirrors connects reflective surfaces, especially those made of metal.
The Third is the Infinite Staircase. It connects places where especially creative artistic acts took place.


(Sometimes I include the plane of Faerie as well, or say that the Infinite Staircase is one of the remnants of hte destroyed Faerie, with other remnants ending up in Arborea, the Dreamscape, Pandemonium and the Outlands).

Hmmmm, an interesting solution. Alas, I don't really like the Plane of Mirrors (rather, I really don't like it :smallbiggrin: ). I'm not familiar with the Infinite Staircase though. Could you please point me to where I can read about it? It could compound a trinity with Shadowfell and Feywild, if it makes enough sense :smallsmile:

Epsilon Rose
2012-04-23, 10:14 PM
A standalone Plane of Mirrors does seem a bit excessive, and taken with the Plain of Shadows sets a trend that could result in a rather cluttered multi-verse. However, a Plane of Connections or a Plane of Reflections (or even just an expanded Plane of Shadows) might be interesting. It hints that the different things we see might be more connected than we think (your shadow on the ground and your reflection in the mirror are the same thing) and could also set-up interesting phenomena like "all roads are one road" or "all doors are one door" that you see every once in a while in fiction.

Eldan
2012-04-23, 10:28 PM
Hmmmm, an interesting solution. Alas, I don't really like the Plane of Mirrors (rather, I really don't like it :smallbiggrin: ). I'm not familiar with the Infinite Staircase though. Could you please point me to where I can read about it? It could compound a trinity with Shadowfell and Feywild, if it makes enough sense :smallsmile:

The Infinite Staircase comes from Tales of the Infinite Staircase, a collection of Planescape adventures all built around said staircase.

Basically it's a bit Sigil-like. It is a staircase that never ends, twisting into different forms. On every landing is a door that connects to a door somewhere else, usually in a place where a lot of creativity took place. You never find the same door twice, usually, and the staircase changes when no one is watching.

Larkas
2012-04-23, 10:50 PM
A standalone Plane of Mirrors does seem a bit excessive, and taken with the Plain of Shadows sets a trend that could result in a rather cluttered multi-verse. However, a Plane of Connections or a Plane of Reflections (or even just an expanded Plane of Shadows) might be interesting. It hints that the different things we see might be more connected than we think (your shadow on the ground and your reflection in the mirror are the same thing) and could also set-up interesting phenomena like "all roads are one road" or "all doors are one door" that you see every once in a while in fiction.

Hmmm, interesting concept! Can't actually see how a plane with those characteristics might present itself, though :smallconfused:


The Infinite Staircase comes from Tales of the Infinite Staircase, a collection of Planescape adventures all built around said staircase.

Basically it's a bit Sigil-like. It is a staircase that never ends, twisting into different forms. On every landing is a door that connects to a door somewhere else, usually in a place where a lot of creativity took place. You never find the same door twice, usually, and the staircase changes when no one is watching.

Oooooh, interesting! I'll try searching for that material to have a look at it! Strange concept, though it might work. Thanks for the idea :smallsmile: