Multiple attacks with natural weapons

[LordDrakulzen]

I know this has come up before, but I did not see a definitive answer on it.

EDIT: My character build is a massive clawed fighter.
Feral Half-Ogre (+2 LA) Fighter 5/Thayan Gladiator 10 (Champions of Ruin PrC).

My questions are:

1: The Imbue Natural weapons abilities- Do they effect both of my claw attacks or just one of them? Meaning the Speed enhancement- does it effect both of my claws or just one of them. The given examples show a Minotaur enhancing his Gore attack, and a Lizardfolk who does not qualify for enhancements yet.

Edit: Only One. Don't like it but must accept

2: If I were to take Ritual of Association from Savage Species and gain the Dragon subtype, thus qualifying for Rapid Strike, and Improved Rapid Strike from the Draconomicon- How many attacks would I gain with either/both of my claws.

Edit: Seems to be one hand gets all the benefits again. Once again, don't like it but is apparently the rules

Edit:
(side note on this. In the Draconomicon, none, I say again None of the Example dragons have taken Improved Rapid Strike. Only 2 dragons listed in the examples of both Chromatic and Metallic have Rapid Strike listed as feats taken. and of the 2 only Acophisinian, the Young Adult Blue dragon has the extra attack listed in the Stat block, the other dragon is the Wyrm Green Dragon.)

Acophisinian has the feat listed as Rapidstrike (claws). In her Full attack it has listed "Full Atk +23 melee (2d6+6 Bite), +22 melee (1d8+3 2 claws), +17 melee (1d8+3 2 claws), +21 melee (1d6+3 2 wings) +21 melee (1d8+3 tail)

Bold by me for emphasis.

In the only example I have thus seen for a creature with the Rapidstrike feat, it receives 2 extra claw attacks with its usage.


3: The Beast Claws from Savage Species- when improving them, do you pay as if improving a single weapon or as improving 2 weapons? Meaning could I have a +2 shocking burst attack on the left claw, and a +2 Flaming burst on the right claw? Do they increase the bonus damage more than a 1d6 if made for a Large creature?

Edit: Apparently this is still up for grabs. Per other posters and from RAW Sticky they are 2 separate weapons, but from other gamers offline they are single weapon, and improved together.

If you answer, please post quotes from the books to defend them. I am aware of how the phrasing in Rapidstrike says gain 1 attack, I am quoting the usage in the only time I have thus seen it used.

"If you have a pair of natural weapons, such as two claws, two wings, or two slams, you can make one extra attack with one of those weapons at a -5 penalty... You can take this feat once for each pair of natural weapons you have. For example a large dragon has one bite, two claws, two wings, and one tail attack. The dragon can take this feat twice, once for its claws, and once for its wings."

I ask these questions in an attempt to o make sure the build is within RAW.

[LordDrakulzen]

OK, Trying this again. I have kept asking and finally got the answers I dreaded, but they were given.

I am under the impression that the Beast Claws are not considered a weapon that will give me additional attacks, being as I use them solely with my natural claw attack.

My friend showed me a build, using a combination of Thayan Gladiators abilities, and the Ritual of Association, which can grant the Dragon Type, allowing me to take Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike. He had

Right - +15/15/10

Left - +15/10/5

For the BAB for the claws, adding on the Strength bonus, and other modifiers, the attacks gained +18 per attack.

If I use haste, I gain one attack per weapon held, but not able to stack with a speed weapon, that would give me an additional +15 with my left claw at least.

Where in all this would my Rend ability work?

[mattie_p]

Posting now to bookmark and bump the thread - I'm heading out to scouts in a few minutes and need to squeeze in dinner - see you in a few hours - hopefully with some advice for you. If you can get your DM can get on here, we may make some real progress.

[LordDrakulzen]

My DM will not be joining us, he is otherwise engaged... in arguing with me VIA text message about this very thread actually...

His opinions on the build are -Max of 3 attacks per claw from combination of Feats for one hand and Thayan gladiator on the other.

Each attack would be with Full Strength bonus to damage. Beast claws are a single weapon that is to be upgraded as such.

Rend- Get once per round if you hit at least once per claw.

My goal is to build a one monster demolition team. Using Adamantine Beast Claws of epic strength, if i were to ever get there, and destroying entire armies by myself.

Not too much to ask I hope. :smallcool:

[kardar233]

Rapidstrike gives you one extra attack total.

Improved Rapidstrike gives you up to 4 extra attacks, and there's no language in the feat that would indicate that it doesn't stack with Rapidstrike or the normal natural weapon attacks.

The Natural Weapon Mastery ability of the Thayan Gladiator should also stack.

In these cases, there's nothing (like there is in Haste, Whirling Frenzy, Speed weapons) to indicate that they don't stack. Stat blocks for monsters are often very badly done, especially where natural attacks are concerned, and that dragon shouldn't be getting two bonus attacks off Rapidstrike. The most egregious of all the monster attack errors I've seen is on the Marruspawn Abomination from Sandstorm *shudder*.

Beast Claws bonus damage doesn't increase if made for a larger size. It's a magical effect on top of your claw damage, like Flaming or similar, so it's unaffected by size increases.

You should ask your DM if you lose the ability to make Beast Claws claw attacks when you already have claws; RAW says you should be able to but that's weird even for me.

[LordDrakulzen]

The Beast Claws state that they increase your claw damage by 1d6. This post is mostly discussing the finer details of my questions, as my entire build needs to be redone, thanks to me adding illegal template:smallfrown:

Quick question here- the Thayan gladiator grants the feat Improved natural attack, would that go on both my claws or only the one that gets all spiffy from everything else?

Also would I be able to get Improved natural attack again, the MM does not state it can be taken again, but it also doesn't say I can't.

[kardar233]

Improved Natural Attack says:


This feat may be taken multiple times, but each time it applies to a different natural attack.

You get INA for a natural attack form, so you'd be getting Improved Natural Attack (Claws), getting the bonus for both claw attacks.

[LordDrakulzen]

You get INA for a natural attack form, so you'd be getting Improved Natural Attack (Claws), getting the bonus for both claw attacks.

YAAAYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Finally something finally goes my way!!

So far I've lost- Large size, reach that goes with it, 1d6 damage from it, strength from it, con from it, multiple attacks with both claws, the special abilities that my one claw gets that the other lacks, the ability to have speed added to both beast claws. But I don't have to use a feat to have equal sized hands!

[mattie_p]

First off - time to give some background. LordDrakulzen posted this question several times on the Simple Q&A D&D 3.5 (by RAW) XX (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13169425&postcount=1654)thread before I responded... as follows:


LordDrakulzen, I'll endeavor to answer your questions. Your persistence has inspired my curiosity.


Originally Posted by LordDrakulzen
My Third attempt at getting 790 A & B answered and my fourth for C (AKA 845 FIRST )

*SNIP*

My character build is a massive clawed fighter.
Feral Half-Ogre (+2 LA both from Savage Species as that is the book I have) Fighter 5/Thayan Gladiator 10 (Champions of Ruin PrC).

First off, you have an illegal template applied. Half-ogre has the type giant. Please see the race description on page 218 - Giant Blood:For all special abilities and effects, a half-ogre is considered a giant.

Furthermore, Half-Ogre was updated to 3.5 in Races of Destiny, page 97, explicitly giving it the Giant type, as well as updating the LA to +2. The Feral template can only be applied to a corporeal humanoid or monstrous humanoid creature. Giant does not qualify. I regret to be the one to inform you of this after two weeks of seeking answers without assistance. Now... on to your questions.


790A: The Imbue Natural weapons abilities- Do they effect both of my claw attacks or just one of them? Meaning the Speed enhancement- does it effect both of my claws or just one of them. The given examples show a Minotaur enhancing his Gore attack, and a Lizardfolk who does not qualify for enhancements yet.

A790 part A: Just one.

Regarding Imbue Natural Weapon(Su) ability. I do not have Champions of Ruin, but I did find a partial write-up of the class at the Wizards website - http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4alum/20081107a - please let me know if there are significant differences between that article and the book. The class feature starts with these couple of lines:

Improved Natural Attack: When you enter this class, choose one of your natural weapons to gain the benefits of the Improved Natural Attack feat. The natural weapon you choose is affected by the rest of the abilities you gain through advancing in this class.

Emphasis mine. Choose one of your natural weapons. That weapon gets all the rest of the bonuses from your class features.


790B: If I were to take Ritual of Association from Savage Species and gain the Dragon subtype, thus qualifying for Rapid Strike, and Improved Rapid Strike from the Draconomicon- How many attacks would I gain with either/both of my claws.

A790 part B: You cannot take the ritual of association to gain dragon subtype or type modifier, and if you could, you still can't take that feat via that method. Once you somehow gain those feats, you gain iterative attacks, as your BAB, with one of your claws.

The ritual you describe is found on page 148 of Savage Species, and states:

"This minor ritual gives the character a racial subtype or type modifier such as gnoll, goblinoid, orc, or reptilian... The character gains minor manifestations of the physical appearance of that subtype ... but no abilities of that monster kind. The benefit of this ritual is that the character can use items as if it were a member of that subtype."

The ritual states the kind of racial subtype that it grants, all of which are subtypes that pertain to humanoid. Dragon is not a legal subtype, so far as I am able to determine. Furthermore, it has only one stated benefit - and that it to use items. Rapidstrike requires abberation, dragon, elemental, magical beast, or plant type, not subtype. Neither Giant type (Half ogre) nor monstrous humanoid type (if you somehow got your DM to house-rule the ability to apply feral to giant, and they overturned the type pyramid on page 142 of Savage Species) qualifies for this feat. You somehow need to change your type to dragon (the next step in the type pyramid).

You could apply the Draconic template (p74, Races of the Dragon) to your character, gaining Str +2, Con +2, Cha +2, plus the dragonblooded subtype for a LA +1, but that doesn't get you to dragon type yet. For that, you would need the Half-Dragon Template (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfDragon.htm) from the SRD, which grants dragon type for a LA +3.

OK, now the feat - Rapidstrike - gives you one extra attack with one of the pair of weapons that you applied the feat to. Improved rapidstrike gives you iterative attacks, using your BAB and decreasing in steps of 5 (as normal) with one of those weapons. In other words, if your BAB was 20, you would get one claw attacking four times at +20/+15/+10/+5, the other with +20.

By the way, ignore the extra attack that Draconomicon gave to Acophisinian, whenever the actual rules text conflicts with a table or an example creature, the rule text takes precedence. This has been established many times, and is written into the errata for the PHB, DMG, and MM I.


790C: The Beast Claws from Savage Species- when improving them, do you pay as if improving a single weapon or as improving 2 weapons? Meaning could I have a +2 shocking burst attack on the left claw, and a +2 Flaming burst on the right claw? Do they increase the bonus damage more than a 1d6 if made for a Large creature?

A790 part C: Each claw is improved separately.

Gauntlets, as listed in the weapons table, cost 2 gp each (4 for a pair), spiked gauntlets cost 5 gp each (10 for a pair). In the magic item table on the SRD, masterwork spiked gauntlets cost 305 gp each (two of them cost 610 gp), and are enchanted separately. Although Savage Species lists it as a pair of items (costing 9610gp for the pair, or 4000 for the +1 weapon enchantment on both, 5000 gp for the extra stuff on both, and 610 gp for the base price of both), they are still spiked gauntlets, and can be worn and enchanted separately.

This sparked some follow on questions... ( I promise I am not just trying to pad my post count, just need to transfer the conversation from that thread to this...)

[mattie_p]

Firstly, Thank you mattiep for answering my questions. They are all as I feared, and my character goes into the trash with my hopes for an unstoppable clawed killing machine...

Secondly, my question:

Q914A-On the beast claws (my favorite weapon of all time) if my character is a feral human (I know that is legal :smallbiggrin:) he does 1d8+str and 1d6+2. What part of that damage gains the +2 from the enchantment when dealing with damage reduction?

B If a Large character with a natural claw attack wears them, does the extra damage increase beyond the stated 1d6?

And then my response...


A914 part A: I think you might be confused on how damage reduction works.

Each successful attack made with your first beast claw (using your feral human) does 1d8 (natural claw) + 1d6 (beast claw bonus die)+ str bonus (primary hand) + 2 (beast claw enhancement) (off-hand beast claw does the same, just with 1/2 strength). All those added together makes, lets say 12 damage, for the sake of argument.

If your opponent has DR 10/-, then your opponent takes 2 points of damage, as the damage resistance soaks up the first 10 points of damage per attack. If your opponent has DR 10/magic, then you do 12 points of damage, as you are using a magic weapon to overcome the DR.

A914 part B: No.

The added bonus for adding 1d6 if the wearer has a natural claw attack is a custom bonus, and will not change regardless of the wearer's size.

Are we making progress yet? No because I'm used to people on that thread posting unrelated questions. I still haven't put 2 & 2 together yet... silly me.

Response....


Not that confused, just trying to keep everything simplified. However, I'm fairly certain that my second attack is at full strength damage, as it is still a natural attack. otherwise it would count towards additional attacks for high BAB.

Q922

If I have the feral template, gaining the Rend ability, and I have taken Thayan Gladiator, and Rapidstrike (using one claw for the Gladiators enhancement, and choosing the other claw for Rapidstrike) how many attacks would I gain at say at Fighter 6/Gladiator 10?
Or just using Beast claws of Speed on each claw.

How many of those would qualify for the Rend ability?

Then I responded again...


A914 - followup: You are using spiked gauntlets as a weapon, and must use rules for normal weapons and normal BAB.

Unfortunately (or fortunately, we may see), I believe you are mistaken, as you are now using gauntlets for your attack, which means you are using a weapon, which means that normal rules for attacking with weapons (and two-weapon fighting) apply. Your primary weapon (a magically enhanced spiked gauntlet) gains + your (modified as applicable by Thayan Gladiator) claw damage, +1d6 (as beast gauntlet), plus full strength bonus, plus +2 enhancement bonus. Your secondary weapon (the other claw) is normal (unmodified) claw damage, + 1d6, + 1/2 strength bonus, +2. This permits you to use normal iterative attacks for your primary weapon (enhanced natural weapon via Thayan Gladiator and beast claws) as well as your off-hand secondary attack (at 1/2 strength, but +1d6+2 for beast claws). You now qualify for the Two-weapon fighting feat-tree, which may or may not be advantageous in your case, specific min/max deserves its own thread, and if you wish to resume the conversation there, I will endeavor to assist.

A922: Ask your DM, PM me, or re-post in your existing thread. I need to do some research on the question, and your question may or may not be modified by my followup to question 914. I really do not want to be premature.

By the way, the thread referred to in my answer to 922 is this thread. Thus this discussion. Now that I've established the situation, let me review the other posts and delve in.

Also, LordD, please refer your DM to this thread, even if they don't agree with everything that we post or conclude, as it may shed some light on the thought processes...

[mattie_p]

OK, regarding the Improved Natural Attack, strict reading states that you get the benefit of the feat, not the feat itself. Wording like this can be dicey.

As you saw in the RAW thread, I tend to take a pessimistic? conservative? - not sure what the right word might be - view. My perspective is that you don't actually get the feat, you get the benefit - for one hand claw. Meaning if you do take the feat for your claws (which I would rule you could, after all, you don't have the feat), you have one claw dealing 2d6 (one size increase) the other deals 3d6 (as two size increases).

But regardless, my point is that you are now using beast claws as your primary weapons. They are spiked gauntlets, even though one of their special qualities is that you do your normal claw damage + 1d6 +str + 2, and therefore weapons. So instead of dealing with natural attacks you are now dealing with two-weapon fighting, by my reading. You should get with your DM to confirm this though, as their reading will have an impact on your feat selection.

This is probably a good thing for you, by the way, as you now get iterative attacks with your primary natural weapon beast claw, and the two-handed fighting tree of feats will net you iterative attacks with your off-hand. You no longer need to worry about qualifying for rapidstrike (which we saw was difficult), as you already have iterative attacks with "natural weapons" - aka your claws sheathed in beast claws.

Adding the speed enhancement to one or both beast claws (again, I think they are enhanced separately as if a double weapon, but really two individual weapons using TWF) gets you an extra attack at your highest BAB.

OK, I didn't get into rend yesterday, but by my reading, sadly, you don't get rend.


Special Attacks:A feral creature gains additional special attacks based on its hit dice, as shown in the table below. It gains the special attacks indicated in the row corresponding to its monster hit dice, plus all those in previous rows.

A feral human has exactly one monster hit die, which is replaced by a class level. I'd give you improved grab, but that's it.

Incidentally, if you have not seen it before, you need to check out Person_Man's thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127732). Titled "[3.X] Increasing Size, Effective Size, Unarmed Damage, Reach" it explains exactly that. Also look in the spoiler block of his sig for extra melee goodness.

Hope this helps, and hope to hear a little more about this.

[LordDrakulzen]

I have played both ways in regards to the TWF tree with the beast claws. My original DM was an idiot unusual reader of the rules, he didn't understand the basics of spellcasting simple rule that the majority of spells are a standard action, so when he announced how happy he was to finally hit 12th level and gain a second spell, I went with it. It wasn't until about 3 years into my playing that I actually had the time to read the rules about it and realize he was a moron.

With that said, my current group is much better. Although I am way behind due to my late entry into gaming, I am catching up.

I know what my current DM, or the one who taught all the other gamers whether he's actually the DM or not, they defer to him, I know his thought process on my build, Speed would only work on ONE weapon, the claws are a single weapon, and they do not count towards TWF.

and in having checked with him, the Monster HD portion of a Feral Template goes with the Class HD, not just the RHD.

If I were to try to use Beast Claws as my primary weapon, I would lose my natural claw damage.

I dislike his rulings as they don't allow my character to be it's full awesomeness that's possible, but I respect him in that if this build ever happens it has to be by his approval.

[LordDrakulzen]

Ok, New day new Update.

Apparently have been having communications problems with my DM. Text can be confusing. He admits that Improved rapidstrike will grant up to 4 attacks with one claw, granting me the ability to have 7 claw attacks!

His statement is that he "likes the symmetry of the character lol". and having 7 claws, one of which is at -15 would slow combat, and the last one would have problems hitting most stuff.

so at the moment, my character has no race, but will be Feral, a fighter 5/thayan gladiator 10 then proceed with fighter at level gain.

BAB +15

Right claw- 15/15/10

Left claw- 15/10/5

if I gain 1 level I'll gain a 4th attack with my left making it 16/11/6/1

Now I just have to find an appropriate race.

[mattie_p]

Can't say as I understand his reasoning, based on my previous posts, but good for you.

You are already accepting a +1 template in feral, may we assume level adjustment buy-off rules are in place? How much total LA can you accept? You can buy off a total of +2 by ECL 15.

Feats you've taken, traits, flaws allowed? Remember fighter 5 does not give you a bonus feat, consider a barbarian dip? EDIT - A Psyschic warrior dip will give you expansion to size large again and a bonus feat, at the cost of +1 BAB.

[LordDrakulzen]

Going with Water Orc-Half-Minotaur-Feral

All official flaws are allowed, meaning UA and Dragon Magazines.

Build is set:
2 Flaws- Inattentive/Clumsy- -4 to spot/listen, -2 on Ranged Attacks

Feats- Weapon Focus (claw), Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Toughness, Improved Sunder, Improved Grapple, Weapon Specialisation (claw), Heavy Armor Optimization, Melee Weapon Mastery (Slashing), Rapidstirke, Improved Rapidstrike

I have not talked about a LA buyoff with him yet, don't know how that will go over. Will be getting Heavy Armor so not looking to go Barbarian, maybe after Thayan Gladiator is complete.

[mattie_p]

If you even consider going Barb, don't bother with heavy armor optimization. Without enhancement bonuses, you'll get a total of 10 AC from full plate (9 AC, +1 dex), whereas breastplate can get you 8 AC (5 AC, +3 dex). You'll be boosting dex anyway via items.

Now, consider what a 1 level dip in barb will get you...

Fast movement, rage 1/day. In UA ACFs, you can get...

Ape totem - trade fast movement for a climb speed

Bear totem - trade fast movement for toughness as a bonus feat (if you really insist you need it - you probably don't)

boar totem - trade fast movement for diehard feat while raging

dragon totem - trade fast movement for blindfighting feat

whirling frenzy ACF - trade normal rage for the ability to get one extra attack per round, at your highest BAB, but with a -2 to that attack and all other attacks that round.

All of these are available at the d20srd (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/variantClasses.htm).

Complete Champion ACFs on page allow you to trade fast movement for improved grab (bear totem) or pounce (lion totem).

Pounce is one of the key abilities for any melee character, so unless the DM is granting that for feral template (can't recall, honestly this is more homebrew than 3.5 at this point) you need it.

[LordDrakulzen]

I wish I didn't need Toughness, It's a prereq for Thayan Gladiator.

Whirling Frenzy is intriguing. Why not get 8 attacks per round?

[mattie_p]

OK, so go Fig 4, Barb 1 (Whirling Frenzy ACF, bear totem ACF, these two ACFs are compatible), meaning you don't need to spend a feat on toughness (as it is now a bonus feat). Use that feat elsewhere to pick up extra rage or something else tasty.

Also, is there a reason you are picking up Improved unarmed strike and improved grapple? I wouldn't think you are a grapple focused character, as the best grapplers generally expand size or get extra limbs. If you must grapple, Use that spare feat (instead of toughness) for Shape Soulmeld (Girallon Arms) (page 68, Magic of Incarnum) to pick up 2 extra limbs and a +2 competence bonus on grapple checks. Drop improved sunder and get Open Lesser Chakra (Arms) (p40, MoI) at level 12 or above and you get a +2 insight bonus on grapple checks, and allows you to bind your Girallon arms soulmeld to your arms chakra, as well as:


If you hit a single target with at least two claw attacks, whether these attacks come from your girallon arms, a different soulmeld, your own innate abilities, or some other source, you can latch onto the opponent’s body and tear the fl esh. This attack automatically deals double claw damage, including double your Strength bonus.

[LordDrakulzen]

improved unarmed strike is for improved grapple, grapple is to get control of the enemies.

my feats at 12 and 15 are for my rapidstrike feats.

[mattie_p]

Fig 4 / Barb 1 (with ACFs)/Thayan Gladiator 10

Also, ensure that you can buy off LA +2 using unearthed arcana rules, otherwise your ECL is 17 at this point.

CL1 Power Attack
Flaw 1 Weapon Focus (Claws)
Flaw 2 Shape Soulmeld - Girallon Arms
Fig 1 Power Attack
Fig 2 Improved Unarmed Strike
Lv 3 - Improved Grapple
Fig 4 weapon Spec - Claws
Barb 1 Toughness (Bonus)
Lv 6 - Extra Rage???
Lv 9 - melee weapon mastery (claws)
lv 12 - rapidstrike
lv 15 - improved rapidstrike
lv 18 - open lesser chakra (arms)

Sound ok so far?

[mattie_p]

LordD, you still there? Any progress at this point? I hope I've been helpful...

Also, Sword and Fist (which is a 3.0 rulebook) grants +4 on grapple checks when you have multiple arms, so the +2 from girallon arms turns into a +6. This rule was never modified/updated/changed in 3.5, and while it was never reposted, is technically still valid. Your mileage may vary (in other words, check with your DM, but he seems more lenient than I am, so it should be good).

[LordDrakulzen]

LordD, you still there? Any progress at this point? I hope I've been helpful...


You have been helpful. Was checking in during work, but have moved departments temporarily and don't spend all night on the computer anymore. can only check in before 3 and after midnight eastern.