[DnD 3.5] Incarnum Archer?

[theonesin]

I'm making a new character for a level 8 campaign, mostly because the party has a several lack of ranged ability(and the first encounter was against manticores who sniped us from the sky).

I've been interesting in trying out Incarnum, and while I've already looked at the Incarnate and Totemist handbooks, I can't quite decide which would be better to "fix" the party's lack of range. Chaotic Neutral Incarnate gets some nice ranged attack things, but I don't know if the soulmelds can offset the low BAB to actually let me hit things.

On the other hand, the Totemist seems pretty powerful, at least in melee, though it has the Manticore Belt for some good(at least that I've heard) ranged ability(and yes, I see the irony in using the Manticore Belt against manticores >.>). I THINK I've seen some options that would allow them to just fly up to something and smack them too, though I'm not sure.

Any advice on where I should go with trying to make an Incarnum character who can handle this?

[Answerer]

The Manticore Belt's pretty solid, yeah. Though being ranged is sort of limiting for the Totemist because he can't bring the rest of his natural weapons to bear most of the time.

[Sneaky Weasel]

For sheer offensive power, the Totemist beats the Incarnate hands down, whether in ranged or melee combat. The Manticore belt is possibly the best soulmeld it has, giving three ranged attacks per round at level 8. And yes, you can get flight as well. The ability to swich between ranged and melee attacks without much trouble is also nice. Check out the Totemist's Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2943) for more on how good these guys are.
The Incarnate, on the other hand, is a total skillmonkey. Not so great as a primary combatant, but you can go this way if you want. Just go chaotic and focus all your essentia to improving ranged attack and speed. Pick up Airstep Sandals to keep yourself out of any melee, and pepper them from a distance.

[Big Fau]

There is a CN Incarnate (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=580.msg2876#msg2876) build in the Incarnate Handbook. Be warned, it makes a lot of assumptions about allowed sources.

The Manticore Belt is an excellent Soulmeld, but it has a steep hurdle to cross at the lower levels. You might be able to pull it off at 8th level, but it takes a while for it to get really good.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Another interesting comcept could be a 'cleric' (Sapphire Hierarch) archer. With Zen Archery, you're nearly exclusively WIS (with a secondary focus on Con) SAD.

Of course, the build will focus more on using Incarnum as support rather than the main focus of the build, but...

[u-b]

Strictly speaking, at level 8 you should really get flight anyway, so that might be less of a reason. Still, ranged is a good option with bard in the party or some such. You might want to consider amount of buffing available - the better the buffing the more you want to care about number of attacks vs damage per attack.

[Particle_Man]

could one start with a CN incarnate and use the shape soulmeld feat to get manticore belt, or does one really need the totem mask to make that one shine? Don't have the book right now, so can't recall.

[Answerer]

Manticore Belt doesn't do much without being bound to the Totem Chakra.

[Big Fau]

could one start with a CN incarnate and use the shape soulmeld feat to get manticore belt, or does one really need the totem mask to make that one shine? Don't have the book right now, so can't recall.

Shape Soulmeld is considerably weaker for Incarnates trying to get Totemist Soulmelds as you can never get the Totem Chakra benefits.

[Essence_of_War]

I'm a big fan of ranged incarnum.

There are at least 2 obvious routes to go, the bow or the manticore belt route.

If you like the manticore belt route, I would strongly consider a 2-level chaotic incarnate dip to get access to the Incarnate Avatar and Archery Bracers to buff your ranged attacks if your DM allows these to work with the Manticore Belt projectiles. Also, investigate if your DM will allow enhancements from a Necklace of Natural Attacks (SS) to apply to these projectiles (collision (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/weapons.htm#collision)? sign. me. up.). To have melee options also, you can always shape a dragon tail/claws (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=4), which don't require binding to the totem chakra.

If you think the bow route sounds appealing, the aforementioned CN Incarnate Archer is a good build! Until you can take Double Chakra at 9 to bind/shape both Archery Gloves and Theft Gloves it can be tricky if you're trying to fulfill all of the usual skill money roles though.

[Piggy Knowles]

I have a ranged Totemist build I like a lot...


Azurin, Totemist 20
1- Darkstalker, Expanded Soulmeld Capacity
3- Shape Soulmeld (Sighting Gloves)
6- Martial Study (Cloak of Deception)
9- Double Chakra (Totem)
12- Martial Stance (Assassin’s Stance)
15- Indigo Strike
18- Bonus Essentia

Focusing on the Manticore Belt, this build is a ranged skirmisher. The idea is to be constantly surrounded in an inky cloud of darkness, swooping by and releasing a huge volley of spines. Manticore Belt bound to the Waist gives excellent Fly speed plus Flyby attack, while binding it to the chakra gives you the ability to fire one spine per essentia invested as a standard action... and by 14th level, both should be bound. The Shadow Mantle’s shoulders not only surrounds you in a globe of magical darkness, it also gives you blindsight within that globe. This should make it very easy to activate sneak attack via Assassin’s Stance, and Indigo Strike damage.

Instead of blowing a feat on Precise Shot, the build blows a feat on Sighting Gloves, which give the same benefit but also provide a significant damage boost.

Plus, you know, you’re a level 20 Totemist, so you’ve got skill boosters out the wazoo, can switch to melee when necessary, etc.

[Answerer]

Instead of blowing a feat on Precise Shot, instead the build blows a feat on Sighting Gloves, which give the same benefit but also provide a significant damage boost.
Why bother with Point-Blank Shot then? It's a pretty thoroughly mediocre feat. The only reason people take it is for pre-reqs...

[Piggy Knowles]

Why bother with Point-Blank Shot then? It's a pretty thoroughly mediocre feat. The only reason people take it is for pre-reqs...

Yeah, I've been meaning to edit that out... I copied and pasted from an older build of mine, which did still have Precise Shot, and as I was posting this I decided that Shape Soulmeld (Sighting Gloves) made more sense. I should have dropped PBS as well.

[theonesin]

Looking at some things, I'm actually really liking the idea of mixing in a little Incarnate with Totemist(maybe Totemist 6/Incarnate 2). Mainly using Sighting Gloves and Incarnate Avatar(the DM has agreed both work with Manticore Belt), though having access to some of the other ranged soulmelds(Airstep, Fellmist) makes it extra nice. Though the main issue I'm seeing is lack of essentia for everything. Totemist 6/Incarnate 2 gives me 6, with an additional 1 from race(probably Azurin). I can pump 3 into the Belt, and 2 each into the Gloves/Avatar, and while nice, it doesn't give me much room to play around. Incarnate 6/Totemist 2 could trade +1BAB for +1 Essentia, though I'm not sure that's worth it.

Is it wise to take several of the essentia-boosting feats, even if you don't plan to invest points into them(other than Bonus Essentia, obviously)?

[Answerer]

I personally favor the Incarnate 6/Totemist 2 version; 1 Essentia is worth more than 1 BAB, plus the other Incarnate 3-6 class features are better than the Totemist 3-6 class features, IIRC. Particularly the Expanded Soulmeld Capacity, which stacks for your Totem and applies to everything else, and Rapid Meldshaping. By comparison, the Totemist gets the Feet and Hands Chakras a level later (and gets Crown redundantly), the rather-niche Totem's Protection, and Totem Meldshaper Level +1. The latter's good, but not as good as expanded capacity for all Soulmelds.

[Essence_of_War]

I personally favor the Incarnate 6/Totemist 2 version; 1 Essentia is worth more than 1 BAB, plus the other Incarnate 3-6 class features are better than the Totemist 3-6 class features, IIRC. Particularly the Expanded Soulmeld Capacity, which stacks for your Totem and applies to everything else, and Rapid Meldshaping. By comparison, the Totemist gets the Feet and Hands Chakras a level later (and gets Crown redundantly), the rather-niche Totem's Protection, and Totem Meldshaper Level +1. The latter's good, but not as good as expanded capacity for all Soulmelds.

The Incarnate's Expanded Soulmeld Capacity class feature actually DOES NOT apply to your Totemist soulmelds.

This is one of the effects of MoI's extremely poor organization. This clarification is tucked into an otherwise unremarkable paragraph in a different area of the book than where the Incarnate's class features are described. I don't have access to my books right now, but if no one else has found it by this afternoon/evening, I'll try to find it.

Edit: Re: the essentia issue, if you're an incarnate 6/totemist 2, an azurin, and you've taken bonus essentia you should be looking at 8+1+2 = 11 essentia.

For combat, you'll want to pump the belt, the bracers, and the avatar, and your max capacities will be 3 each for the avatar, bracers, and belt. (2 (base) + 1 for each of the class's expanded capcacity features for its own soulmelds)
= total capacity of 9.

You should have enough essentia to fully load your combat melds in combat, while still having a few extra points of to throw around.

Most of the "get 1 essentia" feats are kind of 'meh'. Soulsight could at least by interesting, but locking away essentia for things like a static save boost seems like it's probably not worth a feat. Maybe if your DM has a more generous feat progression or something, but other than bonus essentia and possibly soulsight I'd steer clear of them for a ranged striker.

[Piggy Knowles]

Don't forget that the chakra binds you gain from Incarnate levels can only be used for Incarnate melds, and vice versa. That's another point in favor of going Incarnate 6/Totemist 2... Otherwise you'll miss out on the hands bind for Sighting Gloves. The number of attacks you get with the Manticore Belt is based on essentia and not BAB anyhow, so the lower BAB won't hurt as much.

Of course, Totemist 2/Incarnate 5/Necrocarnate 13 would get around this problem nicely for all your soulmelds, but it would require a useless feat and you would have to be NE, not CN, which makes Incarnate Avatar much less useful.

[Essence_of_War]

Piggy,

Are you sure that's correct? I don't remember anything in MoI about reserving the binds, IIRC chakra binds from different class just add up to give a cap on the total number of chakra binds.

[Big Fau]

Piggy,

Are you sure that's correct? I don't remember anything in MoI about reserving the binds, IIRC chakra binds from different class just add up to give a cap on the total number of chakra binds.

No, Essentia is shared. Chakra Binds, Bind Locations, and Soulmelds/Day are not.

[Piggy Knowles]

No, Essentia is shared. Chakra Binds, Bind Locations, and Soulmelds/Day are not.

Exactly. For reference, check out the rules on multiclass meld shapers on p20 of MoI.

[Snowbluff]

Another interesting comcept could be a 'cleric' (Sapphire Hierarch) archer. With Zen Archery, you're nearly exclusively WIS (with a secondary focus on Con) SAD.

Of course, the build will focus more on using Incarnum as support rather than the main focus of the build, but...

I did this. It worked remarkably well, no thanks to Incarnate. The problem is that Knowledge Devotion and the Incarnate's damage bonuses are Insight Bonuses. What it did do was A) Gave me access to MM Metagic (MMMM, M^4) and B) Gave me other bonuses to increase things like my bad Reflex save and give me skill bonuses I needed.

[theonesin]

I just realized that all of the things I've been getting together to work for range have only been class features, freeing up my feats. As such, I'm not really sure what to take(other than Bonus Essentia, of course), and I don't know how high level this campaign will go, so I don't want to go with the feat suggestion earlier of trying to mix in ToB stuff for sneak attack.

Anyway, any thoughts on feats to take? 1st/3rd/6th level feats are open(Azurin is taken by the above feat), and I'm also allowed two flaws(though I'm not sure which flaws I would take).

Edit: Oh right, I forgot to ask: Are there any good ways of reducing the penalties for shooting past the first range increment of an attack?

[Answerer]

Edit: Oh right, I forgot to ask: Are there any good ways of reducing the penalties for shooting past the first range increment of an attack?
Much easier to just increase the range, but... it's kind of rare that you need to...

[Essence_of_War]

Anyway, any thoughts on feats to take? 1st/3rd/6th level feats are open(Azurin is taken by the above feat), and I'm also allowed two flaws(though I'm not sure which flaws I would take).

Edit: Oh right, I forgot to ask: Are there any good ways of reducing the penalties for shooting past the first range increment of an attack?

The obvious solution for the ranged attacks is Far Shot. I'd double check w/ DM to see if that works w/ the Manticore Belt.

Some other options for feats include:

Bonus Essentia is an obvious choice for 6th.

Expanded Soulmeld Capacity is certainly worth taking at least once for your totem chakra.

The Open Chakra feats are certainly worth it if your DM rules that they add +1 to your chakra binds, and certainly NOT worth it if they don't.

Improved Natural Attack to increase the size category of your manticore spines. Try to stack it with getting buffed by an enlarge/expansion effect and with the soulmeld that boosts your natural weapon size categories.

Cerulean Will could be passable if you take mostly totemist levels.

I think Soulsight is kind of cool, but YMMV.

Flyby Attack, but pretty sure you can get this from binding Manticore Belt.

The usual archery feats (Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Far Shot) could all be applicable, Precise Shot is actually pretty good since you may often find yourself wanting to shoot into a melee, but I think you can get it from Soulmelds.

[theonesin]

Ok, new question.

According to my DM, under the normal rules for how natural attacks work, he said I could actually do 2 claw attacks(Claws of the Wyrm), a tail attack(Dragon Tail), then shift and use the spines from the Manticore Belt.

But under the readings for those soulmelds, he's saying they don't work like that, because of their odd wordings.

What's the deal exactly? I know I heard totemists being mentioned for getting a lot of attacks. Am I using the wrong soulmelds? Is there an official answer regarding this?

[Essence_of_War]

Yes, you're using the wrong soulmelds :smallsmile:

Those two are very nice because they don't require binding to your Totem Chakra to give you natural attacks so at low levels you can have some melee attacks w/o giving up keeping your manticore belt bound.

For LOTS of natural attacks you'll need things like:

1) Girallon Arms (bound to totem for 4 natural attacks)
2) Double Chakra to bind Lamia Belt or Landshark Boots
3) Be a Warforged (natural slam!)

This should be around 7 natural attacks.

From the totemist handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=583.0)



Warforged Totemist 8/Barbarian 2/Totem Rager 10

Feats:

1st: Jaws of Death
Flaw 1: Expanded Soulmeld Capacity
Flaw 2: Cerulean Will
3rd: Multiattack
6th: Cobalt Rage
9th: Extra Rage
12th: Double Chakra (Totem)
15th: Second Slam
18th: Split Chakra (Arms)

This build is a monster in combat. Even from level 1, it shows what true ferocity can be with a pair of attacks (Bite+Slam). As soon as you hit 2nd, your damage output triples with the Girallon Arms meld. At 3rd, your chances of hitting increase. At 6th, you gain the house of all houses: Cobalt Rage. From this point until 17th, you are taking levels in Totem Rager.

An alternate route to conserve on Soulmelds is to drop Cerulean Will for Dragon Tail (Races of the Dragon) by being a Dragonborn or taking Dragontouched. This is less house-rules dependent, but more feat and item-intense.

Swap out the Fast Movement for Pounce via CC's Lion Totem variant. This easily breaks the combat wide open, as it allows you to dish out the damage on a Charge with ease.

Invest as much Essentia into the Girallon Arms and into one other Soulmeld (like Landshark Boots or Sphinx Claws) as you can afford. Then make sure the rest is in Cobalt Rage. While not needed, Rage Claws do have a nice touch to them.

If you can afford the PB, Dragonborn is a nice way to get extra HP. And it opens up another trick: The Dragon Tail feat from races of the Dragon. At the cost of your Composite Plating (and possibly your two slams) you get a Tail attack at 1st level. Vicious doesn't even start to describe it.

A good item to have is the Shadow Hand Gloves from the Bo9S (and have the Assassin's Stance as the 3rd level maneuver it grants). Heavily debatable, but man does it hurt if it is allowed.

I leave out Rapidstrike and its older brother for a few reasons: 1) BAB requirements puts it at the later-levels when it won't make much of a difference, and 2) Wrong race.


It's pretty terrifying.

Edit:

A mini guide to using natural weapons (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10994.0)

[theonesin]

The Open Chakra feats are certainly worth it if your DM rules that they add +1 to your chakra binds, and certainly NOT worth it if they don't.

Improved Natural Attack to increase the size category of your manticore spines. Try to stack it with getting buffed by an enlarge/expansion effect and with the soulmeld that boosts your natural weapon size categories.



I found the soulmeld that does it, but it has to be bound to the Shoulders to do that, and if I'm going Totemist 2/Incarnate 6, I'm never likely to unlock that. This begs the question though: Could I pull that off with the Open Lesser Chakra feat(if not get to two shoulder slots, at least be able to bind Totemist melds to it)?

[Answerer]

Ok, new question.

According to my DM, under the normal rules for how natural attacks work, he said I could actually do 2 claw attacks(Claws of the Wyrm), a tail attack(Dragon Tail), then shift and use the spines from the Manticore Belt.

But under the readings for those soulmelds, he's saying they don't work like that, because of their odd wordings.

What's the deal exactly? I know I heard totemists being mentioned for getting a lot of attacks. Am I using the wrong soulmelds? Is there an official answer regarding this?
Your DM is correct: while Claws of the Wyrm and Dragon Tail give you typical natural weapons that can be used that way, Manticore Belt specifically gives a Standard Action attack, not just a natural weapon that works that way. Thus you can't use Manticore Belt as a part of a Full-round Attack the way you can use other natural weapons.

[Essence_of_War]

I found the soulmeld that does it, but it has to be bound to the Shoulders to do that, and if I'm going Totemist 2/Incarnate 6, I'm never likely to unlock that. This begs the question though: Could I pull that off with the Open Lesser Chakra feat(if not get to two shoulder slots, at least be able to bind Totemist melds to it)?

Hmmm...I'm not sure I understand you.

I think you're saying this:

If your game goes to 11th level, you'll automatically open the arms/brow/shoulders chakra at Incarnate 9. At this point you can freely bind melds (of either totemist or incarnate origin) to your shoulders chakra, but since you still only have 1 totemist bind, and you obviously want to use that to bind Manticore Belt to your totem chakra, this is sort of a choke point.

If your DM rules that the open chakra feats can add to your number of binds, it seems like taking any of the open lesser/open least and using them to add 1 totemist bind, would allow you to bind Totem Avatar to your shoulders and bind Manticore Belt to your totem as soon as your shoulder chakra became available.

[Big Fau]

Ok, new question.

According to my DM, under the normal rules for how natural attacks work, he said I could actually do 2 claw attacks(Claws of the Wyrm), a tail attack(Dragon Tail), then shift and use the spines from the Manticore Belt.

But under the readings for those soulmelds, he's saying they don't work like that, because of their odd wordings.

What's the deal exactly? I know I heard totemists being mentioned for getting a lot of attacks. Am I using the wrong soulmelds? Is there an official answer regarding this?
None of those three soulmelds can be used as part of an Attack Action. If your DM rules otherwise, good for you because that makes those soulmelds that much better. But by RAW, you have to use separate actions for each soulmeld and you simply do not have that many per round.

[Person_Man]

My 2cp:

Totemist 8 (or Totemist 4/Barbarian 1/Totem Rager X) gives you Manticore Belt and access to a wide variety of melee options, should you get bored of being an archer. This is probably the strongest option, since ranged builds get boring quickly, and are hard to use in cramped dungeons. But it's not really an archer.

Incarnate 8 gives you Sighting Gloves (or Dissolving Spittle) and access to a wide variety of defensive and Skill options. For the purposes of a ranged build, the most important are Spellward Shirt (Spell Resistance), Necrocarnate Circlet (renewable super zombie with max HD equal to your meldshaper level),and Wind Cloak (Massive DR vs. ranged attacks, and the ability to use Deflect Arrows that you can use without a free hand multiple times per round when it's bound to your Shoulder chakra, which opens up at Incarnate 9). Also, do not overlook the importance of Mage's Spectacles or Elder Spirit for Use Magic Device. There are a ton of cheap low level spells (especially Ranger spells) which dramatically improve archery.

There's also the option to use Totemist 2/Incarnate 3/Ironsoul Forgemaster 3. Ironsoul Forgemaster can progress the soulmelds and essentia of either class, and gives you the Shield Bond ability (universal Energy Resistance = 5 * essentia invested), which you can use with an Animated shield. The down side is that you couldn't use Necrocarnate Zombie effectively, and it doesn't open up some chakra binds.

And there's the odd ball Totemist 2/Sorcerer 1/Incarnate 4/Necrocarnate X. Sorcerer gives you access to some useful spells, plus a Familiar. The latter is critically important if you want to use the Share Soulmelds feat, which allows your Animal Companion or Familiar to share the benefits of your soulmelds (like Manticore Belt or Dissolving Spittle), basically doubling your damage output. If you take the Improved Familiar or a similar feat, you can ride it as a mount. Necrocarnate eventually opens every chakra bind, and it's ability to gain essentia from recently dead bodies can be amazing. (Although the down side is that it doesn't progress essentia, which can be an issue at higher levels).

[theonesin]

Hmmm...I'm not sure I understand you.

I think you're saying this:

If your game goes to 11th level, you'll automatically open the arms/brow/shoulders chakra at Incarnate 9. At this point you can freely bind melds (of either totemist or incarnate origin) to your shoulders chakra, but since you still only have 1 totemist bind, and you obviously want to use that to bind Manticore Belt to your totem chakra, this is sort of a choke point.

If your DM rules that the open chakra feats can add to your number of binds, it seems like taking any of the open lesser/open least and using them to add 1 totemist bind, would allow you to bind Totem Avatar to your shoulders and bind Manticore Belt to your totem as soon as your shoulder chakra became available.

I'll try to reword that. The soulmeld for increasing die size of natural attacks is a Totemist soulmeld. I'm only taking Totemist to level 2, so I won't unlock the required chakra slot to bind it. On the Incarnate side of my build, I WILL obtain that slot, but I'm pretty sure the rules state that you can only bind soulmelds to a slot in which that class has unlocked.

What I was trying to ask is that, would taking the Open Chakra feat for that slot allow me to bind either Totemist or Incarnate(not both at once) soulmelds to it?