Nitpicky Spontaneous Caster Gripe

[nyjastul69]

Spontaneous casters, as defined by the core rules, by class description and the glossary, only applies to Clerics and Druids. How is it that other classes (Sorcerers and their ilk) have become ‘spontaneous’ in the lexicon? It’s clearly not RAW. Is this an area where a common lexicon simply replaces RAW without anyone having been informed. Should we assume that the spontaneous casting class ability of Clerics and Druids is replaced with some other descriptor? Am I missing a piece of errata somewhere? The inaccurate use of this term, especially in this forum, bothers me a bit.

[eggynack]

There isn't really an issue here. Druids and clerics are capable of spontaneously casting a short list of spells out of their prepared slots. Sorcerers are capable of spontaneously casting a somewhat longer list of spells out of their unprepared slots. I wouldn't really consider druids or clerics spontaneous casters though, just prepared casters capable of a bit of spontaneity.

[nyjastul69]

There isn't really an issue here. Druids and clerics are capable of spontaneously casting a short list of spells out of their prepared slots. Sorcerers are capable of spontaneously casting a somewhat longer list of spells out of their unprepared slots. I wouldn't really consider druids or clerics spontaneous casters though, just prepared casters capable of a bit of spontaneity.

Where within the rules as written is anything associated with Sorcerers considered spontaneous casting? Please cite your source. My source citatition is:


Originally posted by the SRD
Class Features

All of the following are class features of the cleric.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency

Clerics are proficient with all simple weapons, with all types of armor (light, medium, and heavy), and with shields (except tower shields).

A cleric who chooses the War domain receives the Weapon Focus feat related to his deity’s weapon as a bonus feat. He also receives the appropriate Martial Weapon Proficiency feat as a bonus feat, if the weapon falls into that category.

Aura (Ex)

A cleric of a chaotic, evil, good, or lawful deity has a particularly powerful aura corresponding to the deity’s alignment (see the detect evil spell for details). Clerics who don’t worship a specific deity but choose the Chaos, Evil, Good, or Law domain have a similarly powerful aura of the corresponding alignment.

Spells

A cleric casts divine spells, which are drawn from the cleric spell list. However, his alignment may restrict him from casting certain spells opposed to his moral or ethical beliefs; see Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells, below. A cleric must choose and prepare his spells in advance (see below).

To prepare or cast a spell, a cleric must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a cleric’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the cleric’s Wisdom modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a cleric can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Cleric. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Wisdom score. A cleric also gets one domain spell of each spell level he can cast, starting at 1st level. When a cleric prepares a spell in a domain spell slot, it must come from one of his two domains (see Deities, Domains, and Domain Spells, below).

Clerics meditate or pray for their spells. Each cleric must choose a time at which he must spend 1 hour each day in quiet contemplation or supplication to regain his daily allotment of spells. Time spent resting has no effect on whether a cleric can prepare spells. A cleric may prepare and cast any spell on the cleric spell list, provided that he can cast spells of that level, but he must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation.

Deity, Domains, and Domain Spells

A cleric’s deity influences his alignment, what magic he can perform, his values, and how others see him. A cleric chooses two domains from among those belonging to his deity. A cleric can select an alignment domain (Chaos, Evil, Good, or Law) only if his alignment matches that domain.

If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, he still selects two domains to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities. The restriction on alignment domains still applies.

Each domain gives the cleric access to a domain spell at each spell level he can cast, from 1st on up, as well as a granted power. The cleric gets the granted powers of both the domains selected.

With access to two domain spells at a given spell level, a cleric prepares one or the other each day in his domain spell slot. If a domain spell is not on the cleric spell list, a cleric can prepare it only in his domain spell slot.

Spontaneous Casting

A good cleric (or a neutral cleric of a good deity) can channel stored spell energy into healing spells that the cleric did not prepare ahead of time. The cleric can "lose" any prepared spell that is not a domain spell in order to cast any cure spell of the same spell level or lower (a cure spell is any spell with "cure" in its name).

An evil cleric (or a neutral cleric of an evil deity), can’t convert prepared spells to cure spells but can convert them to inflict spells (an inflict spell is one with "inflict" in its name).

A cleric who is neither good nor evil and whose deity is neither good nor evil can convert spells to either cure spells or inflict spells (player’s choice). Once the player makes this choice, it cannot be reversed. This choice also determines whether the cleric turns or commands undead.

Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells

A cleric can’t cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own or his deity’s (if he has one). Spells associated with particular alignments are indicated by the chaos, evil, good, and law descriptors in their spell descriptions.

Turn or Rebuke Undead (Su)

Any cleric, regardless of alignment, has the power to affect undead creatures by channeling the power of his faith through his holy (or unholy) symbol (see Turn or Rebuke Undead).

A good cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships a good deity) can turn or destroy undead creatures. An evil cleric (or a neutral cleric who worships an evil deity) instead rebukes or commands such creatures. A neutral cleric of a neutral deity must choose whether his turning ability functions as that of a good cleric or an evil cleric. Once this choice is made, it cannot be reversed. This decision also determines whether the cleric can cast spontaneous cure or inflict spells.

A cleric may attempt to turn undead a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. A cleric with 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (religion) gets a +2 bonus on turning checks against undead.

Bonus Languages

A cleric’s bonus language options include Celestial, Abyssal, and Infernal (the languages of good, chaotic evil, and lawful evil outsiders, respectively). These choices are in addition to the bonus languages available to the character because of his race. Emphasis mine for clarity.


A spell has to be 'prepared' in order for it to be 'spontaneously' cast. The Druid class feature is quite similar if not the same.

Let's look at the Sorcerer class features:


Originally posted by the SRD
Class Features

All of the following are class features of the sorcerer.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency

Sorcerers are proficient with all simple weapons. They are not proficient with any type of armor or shield. Armor of any type interferes with a sorcerer’s gestures, which can cause his spells with somatic components to fail.

Spells

A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, the way a wizard or a cleric must (see below).

To learn or cast a spell, a sorcerer must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a sorcerer’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a sorcerer can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Sorcerer. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score.

A sorcerer’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of your choice. At each new sorcerer level, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. The sorcerer can’t use this method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a faster rate, however.

Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the sorcerer "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level sorcerer spell the sorcerer can cast. A sorcerer may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.

Unlike a wizard or a cleric, a sorcerer need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his spells per day for that spell level. He does not have to decide ahead of time which spells he’ll cast.

Familiar

A sorcerer can obtain a familiar. Doing so takes 24 hours and uses up magical materials that cost 100 gp. A familiar is a magical beast that resembles a small animal and is unusually tough and intelligent. The creature serves as a companion and servant.

The sorcerer chooses the kind of familiar he gets. As the sorcerer advances in level, his familiar also increases in power.

If the familiar dies or is dismissed by the sorcerer, the sorcerer must attempt a DC 15 Fortitude saving throw. Failure means he loses 200 experience points per sorcerer level; success reduces the loss to one-half that amount. However, a sorcerer’s experience point total can never go below 0 as the result of a familiar’s demise or dismissal. A slain or dismissed familiar cannot be replaced for a year and day. A slain familiar can be raised from the dead just as a character can be, and it does not lose a level or a Constitution point when this happy event occurs.

A character with more than one class that grants a familiar may have only one familiar at a time.

Also note the glossary definition of Spontaneous Casting: Dang! I can't find the glossary in the SRD. The glossary in my copy of the PHB states very clearly what Spontaneous casting is.

I don't have an 'issue'. I'm wondering where, and how, that definition has/is applied to Sorcerers? Source citations requested please. I get the lexicon, where does it come from?

[Keneth]

Bards and Sorcerers both cast all of their spells spontaneously and their spellcasting is referred to as such in all the books (including PHB), so it is RAW. The difference is, that a cleric has to point out that he's casting a spell spontaneously while a bard does not since that's the only way they can cast a spell, and therefore there aren't many mentions in the core books.

Edit:

A spell has to be 'prepared' in order for it to be 'spontaneously' cast.
That is actually the opposite of what spontaneous casting is. Any casting of a spell that is not prepared is considered spontaneous casting (SLAs exempt).

The only clear indication of this I could find by skimming the PHB is in the Quicken Spell feat's description.

This feat can’t be applied to any spell cast spontaneously (including sorcerer spells, bard spells, and cleric or druid spells cast spontaneously)

[nyjastul69]

Bards and Sorcerers both cast all of their spells spontaneously and their spellcasting is referred to as such in all the books (including PHB), so it is RAW. The difference is, that a cleric has to point out that he's casting a spell spontaneously while a bard does not since that's the only way they can cast a spell, and therefore there aren't many mentions in the core books.

Edit:

That is actually the opposite of what spontaneous casting is. Any casting of a spell that is not prepared is considered spontaneous casting (SLAs exempt).

The only clear indication of this I could find by skimming the PHB is in the Quicken Spell feat's description.

Neither the bard or sorcerers spell casting ability is listed as such in the PHb or SRD. The PHB glossary clearly states what 'spontaneous casting' is. It only refers to clerics and druids. Instead of a source citation, please give me a quote from the SRD. The PHB cannot be quoted so that's not an option.

The quicken spell special section doesn't really clarify the matter. I think it means that bard/sorc spells count as spontaneous for this feat as well as the obvious cleric/druid rule for spontaneity. I'm not sure this section overwrites the class description of any of these classes.

[Keneth]

Ok, let's make two things clear.

1) Clerics and druids are not spontaneous spellcasters. They only have the ability to cast certain spells spontaneously. Case in point: Spontaneous Divine Casters (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm). Note that this is the only thing on SRD that will more clearly point this out, for more specific references I can point you to specific pages in books that refer to sorcerers first and foremost as spontaneous casters.

2) Spontaneous casters are all casters that do not prepare spells.

[Telonius]

Mage of the Arcane Order PrC, Complete Arcane.

In fact, the Order boasts almost no sorcerers, bards, or other characters with significant talent as spontaneous casters.

Page 72, Complete Arcane.

Wizards master these advanced principles through careful study; sorcerers and other spontaneous arcane casters intuit what they need to know as their spellcasting experience grows.

Imbue Familiar spell, Complete Arcane.

Spontaneous spellcasters, such as sorcerers, can imbue a familiar with any spells they know how to cast.

There are a few other places in CArc where sorcerers are called out as spontaneous casters (Rod of Fury description; Automatic Quicken, Silent, and Still Spell feats) but that's basically where it comes from, RAW.

[Jerthanis]

Spontaneous casters, as defined by the core rules, by class description and the glossary, only applies to Clerics and Druids. How is it that other classes (Sorcerers and their ilk) have become ‘spontaneous’ in the lexicon? It’s clearly not RAW. Is this an area where a common lexicon simply replaces RAW without anyone having been informed. Should we assume that the spontaneous casting class ability of Clerics and Druids is replaced with some other descriptor? Am I missing a piece of errata somewhere? The inaccurate use of this term, especially in this forum, bothers me a bit.

The ability for a Cleric or Druid to spontaneously swap a prepared spell for a certain spell resembles very strongly the ability of a sorcerer to cast a spell without having to prepare it ahead of time. The two powers are so similar that they can share a definition and description as spontaneous, since in both cases they require no planning before the fact.

Even if we called sorcerer-esque casting "Unpremeditated" casters and Cleric and Druid style casting, "Spontaneous" casting, the word spontaneous continues to be a good description for both the Sorcerer's whole spellcasting ability and for Clerics and Druids when applied to a single spell. Since the sorcerer has a much greater ability at this similar practice, the meaning of "spontaneous" will be more closely associated with Sorcerer than with Cleric/Druid, although it will not be refused application to the Clerics and Druids when referencing their one spell at which they mimic the capability of the Sorcerer.

Even if the phrase was omitted from the description of the method a Sorcerer casts spells, the fact is that the phrase does very accurately describes that method means that even if it wasn't written in the PHB itself, it is still an appropriate phrase for us to use. Because words mean things on their own without needing to be assigned meaning every time we look at them.

[Zilzmaer]

Where within the rules as written is anything associated with Sorcerers considered spontaneous casting? Please cite your source.

Rules Compendium, page 139.

[eggs]

Not every word has to be jargon.

[The Random NPC]

Where within the rules as written is anything associated with Sorcerers considered spontaneous casting? Please cite your source. My source citatition is:

Emphasis mine for clarity.


A spell has to be 'prepared' in order for it to be 'spontaneously' cast. The Druid class feature is quite similar if not the same.

Let's look at the Sorcerer class features:



Also note the glossary definition of Spontaneous Casting: Dang! I can't find the glossary in the SRD. The glossary in my copy of the PHB states very clearly what Spontaneous casting is.

I don't have an 'issue'. I'm wondering where, and how, that definition has/is applied to Sorcerers? Source citations requested please. I get the lexicon, where does it come from?


Neither the bard or sorcerers spell casting ability is listed as such in the PHb or SRD. The PHB glossary clearly states what 'spontaneous casting' is. It only refers to clerics and druids. Instead of a source citation, please give me a quote from the SRD. The PHB cannot be quoted so that's not an option.

The quicken spell special section doesn't really clarify the matter. I think it means that bard/sorc spells count as spontaneous for this feat as well as the obvious cleric/druid rule for spontaneity. I'm not sure this section overwrites the class description of any of these classes.

My bolding. So you can use the PHB to support your arguments, but we can't?