[3.5] Anti-Optimization Challenge!

[Particle_Man]

Assume a DM that remembers the B/X days and wants to run a 3.5 party consisting of 4 humans (of the most common type of human, so no variants): a fighter, a rogue, a cleric and a wizard. No multi-classing will be allowed. No other classes will be considered.

The players with the wizard and the cleric realize that they are Tier 1 and have read the internet discussion boards about optimizing their characters, and know that they will dominate their fellow players if the cleric and wizard are played at that level. Worse, the rogue and the fighter don't know the optimization tricks for their class and so will likely be picking feats, skills, etc. because they sound cool rather than for optimization reasons. So this will not be an optimized rogue or fighter but an average rogue or fighter.

Within the above limits, what can the wizard and cleric avoid doing that will ensure that they contribute, but don't reduce the rogue and the fighter to ineffectiveness? What spells, magic items, feats, etc., should they avoid getting? How can they reduce their tier to the level of (but not below, so saying "only prepare detect magic for all spell slots" won't accomplish the goal) the fighter and the rogue?

[pffh]

My best bet would be buffer/healbot cleric and a buffer/debuffer wizard. This would make the fighter and the rogue a little more powerful and would let them physically handle most of the encounters.

[Togo]

The easiest way to avoid dominating other party members is to focus on buffing them.

What makes cleric and wizard Tier 1 is their ability to take spells that duplicate other class features, or act as game-changers. Simply focus on buff, healing and blasting, and the game balances itself.

It's really not that hard.

[Alefiend]

My best bet would be buffer/healbot cleric and a buffer/debuffer wizard. This would make the fighter and the rogue a little more powerful and would let them physically handle most of the encounters.

Forum gremlins ate my post, so I'll try to recreate it.

I agree with pffh about the cleric, but I would design the "magic user" wizard with battlefield control and blasting in mind. Metamagic isn't likely, because an unoptimized character won't be able to use the more effective mods.

The fighter is going to be specialized (WF, WS, Improved Crit) with a one-handed weapon and will use a shield, so shield feats are likely. Power Attack and Cleave are a must, and I imagine Great Cleave will be there for the potential slaughter (which will never be realized). Combat Reflexes will be there if the Dex mod is positive. Save-boosting feats are an option, but no Toughness unless it's the Pathfinder version.

The rogue is a thief, trap finder, and coward. Skill Focus and/or some of the +2 to two thematic skills feats seem to fit, as do Dodge/Mobility/Improved Initiative for getting into position for backstabbing. All the traditional rogue skills should be represented, including UMD if the goal is a 1st Ed AD&D or later thief. Run (and Fleet of Foot, if available) should augment the use of Sleight of Hand and Bluff, for the inevitable attempts at robbing party members.

[Suddo]

Be the Deus ex machina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_ex_machina). Simply put don't do much of anything till you need to then pull out all the stops. Don't over use your power or use it too often but when need don't hold back. This is more advice to the wizard than the Cleric as the Cleric can always just heal but the wizard is often left doing nothing but out shining.

[hamishspence]

Isn't that going to make the martial players feel even more overshadowed and not less- a feeling that the casters are babying them?

"How come you didn't do that earlier?" would be the question.

[Emperor Tippy]

"Because the butterflies were prettier."

Let's see, careful spell selection is the big thing.

For level 1 get things like Endure Elements (You want me to adventure without personal air-conditioning? Are you insane?), Unseen Servant, Mage Armor, and Magic Missile.

Level 2 get Arcane Lock (a great way to make fleeing easier or imprison people), See Invisible, Invisibility, and Rope Trick.

You should be getting the idea, pick spells that either 1) cover a weakness that no one else can cover easily (like See Invisible does), 2) don't have any real in-combat or utility use but fit the flavor (Endure Elements, for example), 3) make the party as a whole better, or 4) do direct damage.

[watchwood]

The casters will pretty much have to focus on buffing and debuffing - invis/greater invis for the rogue, haste for everyone, save or suck spells to set the melee types up for a solid kill, etc.

The cleric could probably get away with a mild form of clericzilla, but the wizard's going to be pidgeonholed into party support if he wants to stay balanced with the rest of the group.

[Karoht]

Battlefield control can be valuable without overshadowing the two melee. Crowd Control is incredibly powerful without making the melee look bad.

Example
Badguys coming down two hallways.
Web down 1 hallway, melee down the other. Cast Grease down the melee hallway. You're not overshadowing the melee, you're helping them by providing them an environment where they can succeed because they can focus on the one hallway instead of having to split up, and the grease will prevent them from being completely overrun, and usually keep the badguys coming at a healthy and managable pace.

In fact, thats probably the philosophy you want to maintain. Provide them with an environment where they can do well, and as long as you do that, they aren't going to mind too terribly when you fireball nuke a collection of 20 guys that were about to charge their flank.

[Prince Zahn]

Well, I could think of broadening this list...

In the spirit of Pffh's and togo's suggestions(which I agree to):rather than having spells that do another party member's job (i.e. Knock when you have a lockpicker or sundermonkey,charm person whilst having a party face, fear spells when you have the scariest intimidater you could ask for, 'shelter' spells when your ranger could set up a good camp almost anywhere and similar ideas) but rather things with intention to empower their capabilities, for example, casting invisibility (or greater-, if you have it) on your rogue could grant an easy sneak attack(/s), stat buffs are an easy assumption too, not just to your spellcasting ability unless a lot of your spells are dependent on your opponent's saving throws failing.
consider using your spells to do things other classes couldn't do anyway, at least not without you: such as darkness/mists , or summon monster I-IX, water breathing, consecrate,
If they are still into doing the best job they could, de/buffing is a solid way to turn the tables while making the rest of the party feel important too. For example, my mostly-enchantments enchanter(LV.5) who invested with core DC increasers swears by his DC 21/23 sleep and deep slumber spells.
For higher level gaming - try and avoid spells that end combat directly, such save-or die/end spells, (I mean, if your party can beat the non-native outsiders and extraplanars, banishment would just be a killjoy, now wouldn't it?:smallwink:
as for Supplements books - use responsibly and adhere to the above, also, avoid the 'OMG!!!' Stuff that borderline their spell level's balance zone.

also:@watchwood - I disagree, a wizard is almost almost go to town as long as he puts the 'team player' aspect higher than the 'behold-my-awesomeness' factor.

@Karoht - +1 to the last paragraph.

[Karoht]

Another way to look at it, is play the casters a bit like pacifists.
They don't want to cause direct harm, but they're willing to interfere with combat or make it an obstacle. If the enemy still insists in fighting after becoming trapped in a Web spell, then they deserve whatever the melee does to them after that.

So then, if you're going to bust out a nuke of some sort, people realize that hey, this is a big deal, someone has really pushed the "DON'T" button. This way, if you nuke something, it doesn't feel like a casual display of power, it feels much more serious, and that way the melee won't likely feel too bad about it.

[Ranting Fool]

also:@watchwood - I disagree, a wizard is almost almost go to town as long as he puts the 'team player' aspect higher than the 'behold-my-awesomeness' factor.


Aye like people have said, if you don't want to outshine your party members buffing and debuffing badies really helps :smallbiggrin: Why yes I DO have a haste spell ready for you Mr Fighter, oh you need to be invis Mr Rogue well there you go.
Spells can allow for a lot of utility without making others feel like their job could be done by just bringing along a walking towershield to stand in the way. :smallbiggrin:

[nedz]

The Wizard should take the spells which were traditionally good.
This means Blasts and Buffs mainly.
Traditionally level 1 and 2 spells were a bit rubbish, so throw daggers below 5th level.
Lots of Fireballs/Lightning Bolts - to soften up the mooks, take Widen Spell (Sudden possibly) to simulate the risk of Blue on Blue.
Haste was always popular.

[Bahamut Omega]

I often wish the Mass version of the stat buff spells weren't 6th level. Given that it's an enhancement bonus means it won't stack with a piece of equipment players likely have when spells that high are available. I think 4th level is a much more appropriate level for Mass Bear's Endurance and the like, just reduce the number of targets to something like 2 or 3 per caster level so you can only practically effect a party of adventurers, not a whole platoon.

Currently I'm playing a semi-broken custom class our DM created for our group's arcane caster. To avoid overshadowing the others, I often will cast illusions, walls, and enlarge person spells to inhibit enemy progress and keep my allies going.

It's a pretty effective tactic as dividing the advancing enemy forces in half with a wall makes mop up very easy for our enlarged, cleaving fighter. Illusions are helpful for distracting those forces that do get through. Shadow illusions are useful when I just don't like an enemy.

Most monsters we face have a lot of hit points that a straight fireball isn't going to fix the problem, so keeping my meat shield healthy and my walls/illusions up are useful for keeping things efficient. Since we've all learned a dead language, communicating what is and isn't an illusion has become very easy, pretty much ensuring my team always knows what I'm doing.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I think TLN's batman guide to wizards is a great team player. The fighter stabs, the rogue sneaks, the cleric heals, and batman does everything else. Basically, fill in the holes of your comrades, and take pains to let the fighter do his stabbin' thing, and the rogue do his skill-y things.

The Wizard can prepare lots of utility spells, a few buff spells (around one per encounter), maybe one or two "get your boop out of the fire" spells, and keep a slot just for Fiery Burst so you have something to do on the other rounds. The Cleric can prepare healing/"no" stuff like Faith Healing, Sheltered Vitality, Revivify and Favor of the Martyr, Mass Resist Energy and Heal, and he can also prepare buffs like Righteous Wrath of the Faithful and Recitation in case his low-op allies need the combat boost.