Is d20 inherently about epic levels of power?

[Ashtagon]

Nb. I am asking about d20-based game systems in general, not just D&D 3.x and Pathfinder.

I've noticed that a very common response to questions about how to set up d20 to play as "mundane" levels of power (eg. realistic secret agents, Wild West, historical, etc. campaigns) is one of:

* Play with the e6 rules.
* ehh, d20 Modern sort of does that, but it's still got the same power level issue at high levels.
* The system can't do it. Try Gurps or something.

Is there a third way? Something where you can play for a significant number of levels and still be believable as a mundane person?

Off-hand, I know of d20 Call of Cthulhu and d20 Traveller which tried this. I don't recall seeing any reviews that comment on how well those two succeeded in leaving characters as "real people" once you reach mid-high levels. Are there any others that tried this?

[Emperor Tippy]

A fifth level expert can do everything Einstein did. Or be equaling Olympic world records in a given field.

The best in the real world really do top out at about level 5 under D&D rules.

Levels 5-10 are pretty much the legendary heroes. Levels 11-15 would pretty much be the higher end epic heroes. Levels 16-20 is the realm of the ancient demigods and deities.

[Malachei]

d20 is, by design, connected to the paradigm of heroism: Over the course of an adventurer's career, the advancement is so significant that even a 4th level character is a legendary hero compared to a normal warrior.

You can increase the setting's credibility by making magic less commonplace and increasing the overall threat level. Also, suspense adds to the feeling of vulnerability. Nonetheless, compared to a commoner, these characters are still outstanding.

I'm not sure d20 Cthulhu does the suspense/vulnerability as good as native Cthulhu. I'd rather play the real thing.

[Ashtagon]

Thing is, even ignoring that Alexandrian article, within the context of the game taken on its own merits and paying no regard to calibration with real world expectations, high level characters are generally superheroes and demigods. They are the biggest fish in the pond, and it takes a bigger fish to fry them.

The kind of recalibration I'm thinking of is one where a score or so of people half your character level will still pose a credible threat.

[Suddo]

The unfortunate thing is that if you play gritty realistic power you are going to end up playing very high risk type of game where people die regularly, which is realistic. If you want to see something on playing high risk deadly dungeon delving type stuff the Fourthcore Podcasts (http://slamdancr.com/wp/podcast/) are a good place too look. Though the releases they have done are 4e specific the ideas exceed beyond editions, similar to you can RP in any type of game you can do this in any kind of game. If you want to play gritty realism you can play that type of game with a little less crazy magical items (they have an axe that destroys planets as a standard action).

[Clawhound]

I would say that d20 in inherently about SCALING power level. As you play, your power grows.

To remove scaling, you inherently need to narrow the levels available. For example, for low level play, you do something like e6, but for high level of play, you start at 15th level, which is the same as eliminating levels 1-14. Let's call that 15e20.

In games such as GURPS and CoC, the game doesn't scale. Huge amounts of experience don't necessarily translate into huge amounts of ability. In those game, a narrowly tailored enemy with few skill points can still be dangerous or vexing.

In D&D, you can certainly remove all scaling. e6 handles this by giving more feats. You could certainly establish a game at any level that you want, and then just leave it there at that level. You question then becomes, how do you mark your advancement? What advantages do experience bring? Answering that question shapes the campaign. A game that focuses on wealth will behave differently than one that focuses on establishing a new kingdom.

[tyckspoon]

Eh.. the best answer I can think of to your question is 're-form the question.' The 'd20 System' at its core is just a task-resolution mechanic; roll a d20, add appropriate modifiers, compare to a target number. It has some interesting characteristics because of that (the influence of the die is very large, so there's a lot of variance in performance compared to systems that use multiple and/or smaller dice, for example) but the mechanic itself doesn't have much to do with the kinds of characters and stories it can be used to portray; the simple answer is "Yes, of course you can use that to do whatever you want." It's largely a matter of how much additional work you're willing to put into creating rules that support the kind of game you're trying to get.

Now, most d20-derivative games are informed by D&D; they use its 1-20 level structure, its BAB and Save advancement rates, and the other trappings of it. This tends to create a superpowered-type game, because that's what D&D is and its rules are aimed to making characters grow from merely Larger Than Life to Larger Than The Planes, so naturally if you inherit those things you're going to wind up with the same sort of game.

But imagine if, say.. 'Good' BAB was 1/2 advancement and 'Bad' BAB went all the way down to 1/5. 'Good' saves are 1/3, Bad is 1/4. The biggest HD is a d6, most classes get d4, and the squishy non-physical guys are on a d3. There are no magic items, at least not of the kind a D&D character would recognize, and the character generation system makes a 16 exorbitantly expensive, nevermind a starting 18. The biggest fighting badass in this world, a level 20 Soldier-type with 'Good' BAB and a d6 HD, could probably be taken down by a decently-built level 5 D&D character.

[Ashtagon]

The unfortunate thing is that if you play gritty realistic power you are going to end up playing very high risk type of game where people die regularly, which is realistic. If you want to see something on playing high risk deadly dungeon delving type stuff the Fourthcore Podcasts (http://slamdancr.com/wp/podcast/) are a good place too look. Though the releases they have done are 4e specific the ideas exceed beyond editions, similar to you can RP in any type of game you can do this in any kind of game. If you want to play gritty realism you can play that type of game with a little less crazy magical items (they have an axe that destroys planets as a standard action).

Yah. I'm aware other game systems do gritty. I'm not asking about that. Thanks for playing.

[eggs]

Spinning off a couple points that have already been made:

Basically yes. But with some qualifications.

With few exceptions, d20 is a system with massive number scaling compared to other systems. A level 20 Rogue or Fast Hero/Infiltrator is very simply imperceptible to a level 1 character. And a level 1 Rogue or Fast Hero doesn't have a chance of successfully slitting a level 20 Aristocrat's throat, no matter how stealthfully he sneaks up at night.

And the scaling is more relevant than other games - with very few exceptions, the system assumes success is binary: you hit the DC and succeed, or you don't, and fail (opposed to games where failures on die rolls may be mitigated by introducing complications, or spending metagame currency). A DC that is too high to hit is impossible. This further exaggerates a difference in character abilities.

In certain games, the specific values involved in the scaling may vary (this is very rare), but the system's engine highlights an exaggerated difference between character capacities. In most cases, the baseline is supposed to be the average schmuck, making upward-scaled characters essentially superhuman.

[Quellian-dyrae]

I don't know about other d20 systems, but a quick-and-dirty way to get D&D to work along those lines:

-Core only (there's room to work outside of core, of course, but this is simple).
-No spells above 3rd level. Higher-level slots can be used for lower-level spells and metamagic.
-WBL reduced to a flat 1,000 gold per character level.

The actual scaling of mundane characters by class alone is, honestly, not that impressive. Skills can be superhuman, and you can get superhuman skills fairly early if you focus on them, but they are very modestly superhuman. AC is almost entirely gear-dependent. Damage and hit points scale faster from numbers than from level at all but the lowest levels.

Even at 20th level, a mundane character under these rules would probably find a score or so of 5th level opponents to be a dangerous encounter, although things like Great Cleave and Whirlwind Attack can help.

[Ashtagon]

ok, so of teh approaches I've seen, we basically have:

1. You are always a little fish. As seen in Call of Cthulhu, your best hope is to be eaten last by the BBEG.

2. "Vulture Warriors from Dimension X Meet Plenty Of Cheerful Orks with Plasma Cannon". No matter high high a level you are, a plasma gun will still reduce you to a pair of smoking boots. In a sense, this is D&D with the WBL turned off. This can work for a SF setting, where high-tech toys are available at affordable prices. It's less workable for a low-modern tech campaign.

3. Scale down hit point and damage growth. Your Constitution score? That's the most hit points you're getting ever. Spells do damage based on the lowest possible caster level, and higher level spells (above 3rd) probably need banning outright.

4. As [3], and also scale down level progression so that "good" BAB ends at +10 or even +5.

Would 3 or 4 be considered a playable game?

[Ashtagon]

Bump, because a server glitch meant this thread didn't get moved to the top when I made my last post (no way a full two pages of posts got made in those three hours).

[Malachei]

ok, so of teh approaches I've seen, we basically have:

1. You are always a little fish. As seen in Call of Cthulhu, your best hope is to be eaten last by the BBEG.

The most wonderful description of Call of Cthulhu's power level I've read!

Yes, 3 and 4 would be considered playable, I guess. There are systems (like Rolemaster) who have critical hits, and there's Unearthed Arcana for having armor work like DR, which would not necessarily lead to the desired results, but is a concept most grittier games have as an element.

[Chronos]

A fifth level expert can do everything Einstein did. Or be equaling Olympic world records in a given field.

The best in the real world really do top out at about level 5 under D&D rules.No, a fifth level expert can "learn something that nobody has ever known before". There's a word for someone who's done that: Doctor. Anyone with a Ph.D. matches that criterion, not just someone like Einstein. As for equaling Olympic world records, that only applies to Jump, and all it proves is that the rules for Jump are a horrid mess.

According to the books themselves, the scaling is that "legendary" means "about 11th level or higher". Which also happens to match the numbers a lot better than assuming that the best the world has ever produced are 5th.

[Ashtagon]

No, a fifth level expert can "learn something that nobody has ever known before". There's a word for someone who's done that: Doctor. Anyone with a Ph.D. matches that criterion, not just someone like Einstein. As for equaling Olympic world records, that only applies to Jump, and all it proves is that the rules for Jump are a horrid mess.

According to the books themselves, the scaling is that "legendary" means "about 11th level or higher". Which also happens to match the numbers a lot better than assuming that the best the world has ever produced are 5th.

Quoting myself...


Thing is, even ignoring that Alexandrian article,

:smallsigh:

[Morty]

The question is a bit too broad. D&D describes epic level of power, and so do some other d20-based systems, but is it impossible to create system that uses d20's framework but is suited to low power levels? I don't think so. It really depends on what you consider a part of the d20 ruleset.