Mage Killers

[Man on Fire]

I'm doing research for prestige classes homebrew ideas I have - what are the best ways to neutralize classes using arcane magic, divine magic or psionic powers without using these abilities yourself? Lets say, pick up one - what is now the best build for wizard/sorceror hunter, psion hunter or cleric/druid hunter?

[Srasy]

The Forsaker class could provide some inspiration...
Also getting obscene reach with mageslayer would be good.
Needs to be able to fly.
IMO you should give it some kind of Antimagic field at later levels.

[Hazzardevil]

First of all a mage killer needs a way to be able to shrug off spells, or prevent them being cast. They also need to be able to say no when the caster says:
A. Suck or Die
B. I have just teleported away from you
C. I have just taken your sword out of your hand and sent it to another dimension
D. I have just sent you to a dimension where you cannot survive for more than 3 seconds without magic.

[Ranting Fool]

A few feats that are useful from Comp Arc

Mage Slayer
1. You receive a +1 bonus on Will saves.
2. If you threaten a spellcaster, he/her cannot take the ‘cast defensively’ action.
3. Your Caster level (if any) of all spell and spell-like abilities is reduced by 4.

Pierce Magical Concealment
1. You may disregard a Miss Chance that results from a spell or spell-like abilities, such as from Blur,
Darkness, Invisibility, Obscuring Mist, etc. You can not ignore non-magical Concealment (such as fog).
2. When fighting a creature under the effect of Mirror Image, you automatically know which image is real.
3. Your Caster level (if any) of all spell and spell-like abilities is reduced by 4.

Pierce Magical Protection
1. As a Standard Action, you may make a melee attack that ignores bonuses to AC granted by spells. If this
attack deals damage, all spells and spell effects that grant a bonus to AC are immediately dispelled.
2. Your Caster level (if any) of all spell and spell-like abilities is reduced by 4.

I'd guess builds with good saves / immunities / SR

[Emperor Tippy]

Do you want something that can kill a mage in a straight fight or can actually go and assassinate a mage? And at what level? It takes a lot more to assassinate a level 20 wizard than it does to kill a level 20 wizard in an arena fight with all his standing defenses already stripped and it takes a lot less to assassinate a level 5-10 wizard.

None of the PrC's or base classes in the game are any good at killing high level casters, most can kill low to mid level casters.

[herrhauptmann]

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=mage+killing+prc
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=mage+killer+build

Fortunately, a lot of the choices that work for an anti-wizard will also work on an anti-cleric. This is because so many of the choices just specify 'caster' and 'casting a spell,' rather than 'arcane caster' or 'casting a divine spell.'

In roleplay, I'd kill a druid by first targeting his forest. If he's spending lots of his spells putting out forestfires and saving bunnies, he should be at least a little easier to kill once we start fighting directly.

Also, it seems by your request, I could make an anti-wizard out of a cleric. Make an anti-psion out of a wizard...

[Ranting Fool]

Do you want something that can kill a mage in a straight fight.

Another Mage :smallbiggrin: :smalltongue:

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea, you can make a level 20 character with no spells, psionics, or divine magic to assassinate a level 10 wizard fairly well, assuming the Wizard doesn't really think an assassination is coming, and the level 20 character can use lots of spies and such to figure out what defenses the wizard does have and stuff, and the level 20 character has access to use magic device. If the level 10 character thinks they might be assassinated and is preparing appropriately... it becomes a lot harder though.

[Randomguy]

You'd need to be able to:


Block teleportation
Ignore miss chances due to illusions
Have very good saving throws
(optional) Be able to not automatically fail a save on a natural 1.
Resist/negate/be immune to debuffs, like shivering touch.
Have freedom of movement.
Have immediate actions that can prevent casting/avoid an attack/spell.
Escape a forcecage.
Have a very good touch AC.


And this way you might not die in the first few turns.

Do you want to avoid using supernatural effects and spell like abilities as well?

[utherphoenyx]

well first i would like to know what do you veiw as not using the magic/powers yourself ie warlocks and manuvers?

[Slipperychicken]

what are the best ways to neutralize classes using arcane magic, divine magic or psionic powers without using these abilities yourself?

Get someone else to use the magic for you :smallbiggrin:


EDIT: Also, my sig has some relevant info.

[Telonius]

It really, really depends on the level, the optimization of the caster, and how paranoid he is. If you're going against a high-level wizard that's at the top end of the class's power and is very paranoid, you really can't do it without divine intervention (and maybe not even then).

In order to actually defeat a wizard, you'll need several things.
- A way to find him (if he's on his private demiplane).
- A way to get through magical concealment, miss chance, illusory doubles, mirror images, self-buffs, etc.
- A way to say "no" to his no-save spells.
- A way for you to foil his divinations (so he can't prepare for you/use scry & die tactics against you).
- A way to prevent his contingent spells from activating or bothering you.
- A way to either neutralize Celerity, or survive his initial volley of spells.
- A way to prevent him from retreating.
- A way of getting close enough to attack him.
- A way of getting past any flunkies/servants/undead/dominated warriors he has with him.

There are probably other concerns, but I think those are the big ones. There are some builds that can get a few of them, but very few of them are non-casting classes. No build (outside of extreme Theoretical Optimization like Pun-Pun & co.) that I'm aware of has everything.

[Red_Dog]

I'll drop of my favorite "anti-mage advises".

Nocturnomancer from ToM
>Gets dual 9s
>Focus all your mysteries on Black Magic[mysteries], particularly Warp Spell. It allows you to have better action economy and immediate action dispells
>Over all lets your shadowcasting side focus on specific mysteries, make them favorite mysteries and take them time up on time. This means, that Wizrard side as it often happens, will handle everything "utility" and shadowcasting side gives a needed edge.


Certain "CR appropriate" Inevitables. The once from Fiend Folio made to deal with cosmic things ^^. Use Supernatural Transformation on some of there abilities, give them skill knowledge[UMD], equip them with some hard core items, like staffs & rod of absorption or ring of 3 wishes, and advance there HD[HD advances there Supernaturally morphed SLAs quickly and their CR slowly=>4HD = 4 CL and 2DC but only 1 CR ^^] etc. They become fairly snazzy once the adjustments are done. And, the "demigod hunting" once would likely to get "divination canceling effects" from deities that they are protecting. If not, a mindblank item isn't hard to get. It blocks ALL divination, yes even that one ^^[funny how robots need mindblank, oh wizards you so silly ^^]

TBH, depending on how hardcore your target is, nothing short of another wizard can stop it. Or you know, a properly crafted "racial HD wizard".

But just dropping some help I guess ^^

[Ranting Fool]

You'd need to be able to:


Block teleportation
Ignore miss chances due to illusions
Have very good saving throws
(optional) Be able to not automatically fail a save on a natural 1.
Resist/negate/be immune to debuffs, like shivering touch.
Have freedom of movement.
Have immediate actions that can prevent casting/avoid an attack/spell.
Escape a forcecage.
Have a very good touch AC.


And this way you might not die in the first few turns.

Do you want to avoid using supernatural effects and spell like abilities as well?

Very good points, here is some ideas on how to deal/counter those. Any class / Character who tries to sort all this out without being a spell caster would be very item dependent / focused.

1: Level 4 spell, Stops target from teleporting/casting fly/turning into a gas, can't remember the name of the top of my head. If it's a spell then you could get an item of it.
2: One of those feats I posted does that.
3: *Shrug* items/feats/class builds help. I'm sure someone smarter then I could figure out the best build.
4: I know there are feats to let you re-roll fails / roll 2 pick higher.
5: Undead template? Or another one that grants immune
6: Always useful and not just Vs mages. Items and Spells and Class Features can do this.
7: Not sure on this one.
8: Since I tend to stick to low-mid power games I've never had to deal with this so can't help
9: If you're aim is to kill a mage then Natural Armour or Plate wouldn't be very useful anyway (Well apart from Summons and Pets/Minions)

I've one that needs to be considered: Be immune to scry/any Div spell / locate X.

The higher level the mage the much harder it is to kill him, stand up fight is always harder then jumping out and going "BooStabstab" also you'd want a way to bring the caster away from his home/traps/minions.
(I like the setting fire to the forest to make a druid waste his spells, evil but smart)

I once had the evil guys start up a "We love the heroes" event just outside where they where staying... the PC with Blindsight couldn't pick out the guys about to stab him because of the 100+ cheering fans (All of which really DID love the heroes) they knew something was wrong but didn't want to panic the people (And causing harm by panic stampede) things like this work well on Good Casters, evil people not so much.

[Red_Dog]

Also small addendum to my previews response. Generally, all my advise stands from before, but =>

Another good way to try to stand up to a wizard is to Marry UMD & WBL. "A match made in"... some place.

If we take a look at WBL at 20, its => 750k+

Now if we take a look at http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851
One can get anything one needs.

From "personal notes" on WBL when trying to be versatile[or beat a wizard, same thing] especially for "fighters" or "rouges".
=>Do your self a favor and forget about a cool weapon. Weapon price scales horribly. Most of your damage will come from class features & feats[PA uber charges, sneak attacks, staggering, etc.]. A weapon of "my choice" is usually +1 Binding something w/ wand chamber. Its a 10 min Dimension anchor 2/day. Costs only 8k. As per wand, a 750gp wand of nerveskitter does amazingly well with its[as far as I know] untyped +5I. You could shove a wand of many wands loaded w/ Nerveskitter, Wraith Strike and something else into the chamber too ^^.
=>Armor is a bit different as it costs twice as less. Use it to nab cheap-ish effects. In battle with wizard, your AC will hardly matter. I can't atm recall really good onces, but as far as I remember there are quite a few. Also don't forget to shove an armor crystal into a shield, armor and a ring of protection[item giving ac bonus. counts ^^]. Crystals are generally fairly nice.
*Special note goes of to +1 Warning gauntlet/Armor spike. Get it, it will help*

After armor & weapons are out of the way=>
Third Eye conceal, Time stop boots, Rod of Absorption & Amulet of second chances for me are pretty essential at high levels, where everything becomes a first round rocket tag. These 3 items will cost you 260k+, which is actually VERY reasonable considering these are some hysterical reality bending effects.

After this, go thru spell lists, and see which toys you would like to "buy" as custom items ^^.

I am not trying to discover America with this post, just pointing out that WBL & UMD do help all classes equally ^^. Yes, it also applies to a wizard, but that's just a said reality which comes back to "wizards personality" discussion, which I don't really want to unleash on this or any thread. ^^

[utherphoenyx]

well first i would like to know what do you veiw as not using the magic/powers yourself ie warlocks and manuvers?

[Flickerdart]

Assuming that you are able to find the wizard (and not his clone/illusion/projection/twin brother), there are only two things you need to do:

Go first.
Make sure you kill him when you go first.

If you cannot kill him before he can react, he will escape or kill you back. Do not rely on items to do this, because a high level wizard's Disjunction or Chained Dispel will wipe everything away. WBLmancy is your best bet, but simply being able to buy custom items of spells doesn't put you anywhere near a spellcaster's power, because you are still a slave to the action economy, and can only buy so many spells...while he has all of his cash left to spend on anything he wants, and as a spellcaster, he can be crafting or using any of the multitudinous WBL-breaking spells.

Keep in mind that between Dire Tortoise, Foresight, Celerity, Contingency, Anticipate Teleport, Nerveskitter, hummingbirds, SADness, martial wizard...you will not be able to go first by simply rolling initiative and hoping for the best.

In short, the only way to kill a mage is to be a second, better mage.

[Piggy Knowles]

Something with the Vecna-blooded template from MMV, Darkstalker, a significant investment in Hide and Move Silently, and the Hellbreaker prestige class from Fiendish Codex II would get my vote.

Vecna-blooded gives you immunity to divinations. Hellbreaker disrupts telepathy to break Mindsight, plus gives HiPS and some other stealth goodies (including the ability to tag along if your enemy teleports away). Darkstalker plus a tweaked out Hide skill means that, short of Touchsight, they ain't seeing you.

Of course, you still need to find a way to actually HURT the mage you're trying to kill. That's a tough one. Battle Jump + Pounce + Crippling Strike + Valorous weapons could probably strength-drain a mage down to nothing in one attack routine, although you would need some way of beating immunity to ability damage. If they were lazy and just took Shape Soulmeld (Strongheart Vest) for their immunity, then that's probably pretty easy to dispel. Anything stronger than that, though, and good luck trying to break through it as a non-caster. UMD a Disjunction scroll, perhaps?

Oh, yeah, and definitely find yourself a silver sword (you're a stealth assassin, steal one!). Any wizard worth his salt will have Astral Projections up as a decent defense; plane hop over to the Astral and cut that bad boy off!

[Flickerdart]

Hellbreaker disrupts telepathy to break Mindsight
No it doesn't. Even if you pretend that immunity to telepathy disrupts Mindsight, the Hellbreaker's telepathic static ability merely robs creatures within 20ft of the Hellbreaker of their telepathy. Considering that you need to get within 20ft of the mage for this to do anything at all, the ability is useless for the purpose you want to use it for.

[Piggy Knowles]

No it doesn't. Even if you pretend that immunity to telepathy disrupts Mindsight, the Hellbreaker's telepathic static ability merely robs creatures within 20ft of the Hellbreaker of their telepathy. Considering that you need to get within 20ft of the mage for this to do anything at all, the ability is useless for the purpose you want to use it for.

The short range issue stands (although Widen Supernatural Ability helps), but the Mindsight feat requires the telepathy special ability. Telepathic static negates the telepathic ability of any creature within range. No telepathy, no Mindsight.

[Azoth]

I had a build for this a ways back. It wasn't completely capable of killing one even at level 20 but it did a great job of harrassing and taking down non-paranoid schitzo mages. I will fish around for it in a bit. I remember it was a raptoran though and a multiclass nightmare.

[Flickerdart]

The short range issue stands (although Widen Supernatural Ability helps), but the Mindsight feat requires the telepathy special ability. Telepathic static negates the telepathic ability of any creature within range. No telepathy, no Mindsight.
Right, sure - but until you get there, the Mindsight will detect you, so it doesn't solve anything at all.

[eggs]

Does Artificer count?

[Man on Fire]

First of all, thanks everybody for so many answers so fast. I'll take your sugestions in consideration once I'll start working on this idea.


Do you want something that can kill a mage in a straight fight or can actually go and assassinate a mage?

Rather assassinate - I see this as some sort of wizard hunter, somebody who can track wizard, sneak behind them and strike before they'll notice. Guy who can stand up to wizard in open battle would be interesting too, but a completely different build (I may mix it with another prestige class idea I have, but one thing at the time).


And at what level? It takes a lot more to assassinate a level 20 wizard than it does to kill a level 20 wizard in an arena fight with all his standing defenses already stripped and it takes a lot less to assassinate a level 5-10 wizard.

Could it be possible to create progressive build? You know, he starts able to assasinate wizards of his level and progresses - upper level wizards would probably still be a challenge for him, but he would be more useful than your average fighter - I don't want him to render wizards obsolete, rather be there for players who thinks that Wizdo McWizard overshadows their low-Tier characters in confrontation with every evil wizard they meet and wnat to change that (after our discussion about warfare I realized that there probably must be a lot of guys who enjoy low tier battle classes and doesn't enjoy being overshadowed by high tier). I'm interested in builds and abilities who can provide that so I can make Prestige Class who may be hard to pull out, but totally woth it for those guys. I hope I'm making sense here and not asking for something impossible.

[Knaight]

I don't want him to render wizards obsolete, rather be there for players who thinks that Wizdo McWizard overshadows their low-Tier characters in confrontation with every evil wizard they meet and wnat to change that (after our discussion about warfare I realized that there probably must be a lot of guys who enjoy low tier battle classes and doesn't enjoy being overshadowed by high tier). I'm interested in builds and abilities who can provide that so I can make Prestige Class who may be hard to pull out, but totally woth it for those guys. I hope I'm making sense here and not asking for something impossible.

The easiest way to change that is to get rid of wizards, or at least purge the more problematic spells. There are magic using classes that don't totally outclass everything, and using them in lieu of the standard wizards, sorcerers, clerics, psions, druids, artificers, and archivists pretty much solves the issue.

[Flickerdart]

Could it be possible to create progressive build? You know, he starts able to assasinate wizards of his level and progresses - upper level wizards would probably still be a challenge for him, but he would be more useful than your average fighter - I don't want him to render wizards obsolete, rather be there for players who thinks that Wizdo McWizard overshadows their low-Tier characters in confrontation with every evil wizard they meet and wnat to change that (after our discussion about warfare I realized that there probably must be a lot of guys who enjoy low tier battle classes and doesn't enjoy being overshadowed by high tier). I'm interested in builds and abilities who can provide that so I can make Prestige Class who may be hard to pull out, but totally woth it for those guys. I hope I'm making sense here and not asking for something impossible.
So you want a build that not only starts on equal footing with spellcasters, but outpaces their quadratic progression? Without another spellcaster, you're not going to pull this off.

[Alienist]

It's not too hard actually, but the price is steep.

(1) be a monk
(2) get an eversmoking bottle
(3) ????
(4) win D&D forever
(5) get banned from forums

[Man on Fire]

So you want a build that not only starts on equal footing with spellcasters, but outpaces their quadratic progression? Without another spellcaster, you're not going to pull this off.

What's the best I can hope for then?

[Flickerdart]

Once spellcasters gain the ability to sleep/pray/study in a sequestered space (Rope Trick, Magnificent Mansion, private demiplane) you're not going to be able to touch 'em at all, unless you can infiltrate that space. Even a basic Alarm spell will give you a ton of trouble even if your DM rules that it can be found and bypassed as a magical trap. Unless you have a way of dealing with these things you will never be able to assassinate a spellcaster.

[Emperor Tippy]

What's the best I can hope for then?
A build that can handle a wizard in a straight arena style fight at level 20 after all of the wizards non local protections have been stripped away.

Or a build that can assassinate a wizard of 13th level or lower (and does not make use of spells above 7th level in any way).

If the wizard isn't being played to his stats then it's a lot easier but being played as good as he can be, that's about the best you can hope for.

For a point of reference, the other day I pissed off my group by killing them. They are level 20 and I sent what was officially a CR 23 enemy at them, in reality it was a carefully built enemy that was ECL 32 and used VoP chaos shuffle for an extra 13 feats (and this did use multiple epic feats).

That build had a perfect fly speed of 900 feet and used every bit of it.

And it still would of failed if we weren't playing with houserule alterations to a large chunk of stuff (Astral Projection was significantly altered, for example).

[Waker]

If your goal is to make a PrC that can will some frequency defeat a prepared spellcaster you'll need abilities that can:
-Dispel/Disjunction all hundred buffs that the spellcaster has running on them, since your enemy is a flying, stone-skinned, hasted, foresight dire tortoise. You'll need some way to strip the huge amount of defensive abilities. Since you want a non-magical class, I would suggest something like an X/day attack that dispels.
-Cancel Contingencies by some means, possibly using the same suggested skill as above.
-Let you overcome being spotted when the enemy Mindsight, Contacts Other Plane and uses Foresight (and other divinations). Some people might say that having a flat-out immunity to all of those are too much, but maybe you could have the class grant a special use of the Hide skill.
-Obviate teleportation methods, whether by having an anti-teleport field or by following the enemy whenever they leave. You would probably prefer the former as it could be used to prevent you from being sent to another plane.
-Grant a save to the No-Save spells that are popular with many casters. Consider pairing this with Mettle/Evasion.
-Freedom of Movement is very useful, but you also must overcome being trapped by force effects, stone walls or similar obstacles. Maybe a disintegration ability or something like the Stone Dragon maneuvers from ToB.
-Avoiding or preferably redirecting the rays that the enemy will most likely be throwing at you. The Occult Slayer has a spell turning effect for that.

I'm sure there is something else I'm forgetting, but those are a few small suggestions.

Edit
Forgot a few other issues to deal with.
-Finding the spellcaster in question. Whether by some means of casting divination magic yourself or having a super Tracking ability that can cross the planes, you need to find the target.
-Killing the spellcaster for real. An ability that can kill the mage permanently even if it was an Astral Projection or a Clone would work.
-Even with that anti-teleport field I suggested before, it might also be useful to have some traveling ability.

[Emperor Tippy]

Let's see, how to create a mage slayer. Note that this will involved quite a lot of spellcasting from scrolls and a large chunk of cheese.

Step 1: Get a Power Stone of Fusion, a Power Stone of Astral Seed, and a scroll of Ice Assassin of a Will-o'-Wisp.
Step 2: UMD your IA scroll to create the Will-o'-Wisp.
Step 3: UPD the Power Stone of Fusion to fuse with the IA Will-o'-Wisp.
Step 4: UPD the Power Stone of Astral Seed.
Step 5: Kill yourself.
Step 6: Reconstruct your body.

You now have Immunity to Magic (Ex).

Repeat the IA Fusion process with a wyrmling mercury dragon for a 200 foot (perfect) fly speed, a wyrmling force dragon for Immunity to Force (Ex) (this let's you ignore force effects), an elemental of each type for higher attributes, energy immunities, and earth glide, a Dire Tortoise for Lighting Reflexes, and go through the books finding any other useful abilities that you want and adding them on.

The big ones however are the Dire Tortoise, Mercury Dragon, Force Dragon, and Will-o'-Whisp.

Now you want to buy a Weirdstone (Players Guide to FR) to shut down teleportation within 6 miles. You also want the epic feats Permanent Emanation (Anti-Magic Field) and Permanent Emanation (Temporal Repair) and the non epic feat Flyby Attack.

Ideally you want several levels of Factotum for Cunning Strike and as many IP as you can get.

The basic idea is that you activate the Weirdstone and then fly at the enemy mage at very high speed with your Permanent Emanation (AMF) up. This will shutdown all of the casters magical items and contingencies when you get in range, at which point you hit him with a cunning strike for enough damage to guarantee a kill. Make sure you are using a Thinaun weapon to prevent all forms of resurrection. Afterwards flee the area at your full speed.

The various defenses you gathered before trying this are so that in the not unlikely situation that you fail to get a kill you will stand a chance of surviving long enough to flee.

---
The easiest way to kill a wizard is to Wish them into a pre-prepared trap. Upon their arrival they should be inside a dead magic area on the plane and immediately hit with a disjunction cast from outside the area before then being hit with a few hundred sneak attacks using Thinaun weapons.

[Flickerdart]

Note that even the Tippystein's Monster can't outrun a Phantom Steed, or bypass (Ex) SA immunity, and also has nothing available to find the wizard in the first place. Though I'm sure enough Fusions will get the necessary components for at least some of that stuff.

[Emperor Tippy]

Note that even the Tippystein's Monster can't outrun a Phantom Steed, or bypass (Ex) SA immunity, and also has nothing available to find the wizard in the first place. Though I'm sure enough Fusions will get the necessary components for at least some of that stuff.

Most of the wizards immunities will drop when they enter the AMF, unless the wizard is also using Fusion tricks to pick up Ex abilities he is unlikely to have Ex SA immunity that isn't coming from spells.

And yeah, you need to take Improved Speed a few times to get fast enough to really pull off high speed runs. How would you like to be moving at mach 30 as a move action?

[Flickerdart]

Most of the wizards immunities will drop when they enter the AMF, unless the wizard is also using Fusion tricks to pick up Ex abilities he is unlikely to have Ex SA immunity that isn't coming from spells.
He could always just be an undead or construct. Necropolitans (crunch-wise) and Liches (fluff-wise) are popular spellcaster choices, after all.

[Tokuhara]

So by the forums, any non-caster should just commit Hara-Kiri and make a caster?

What about those of us who are the Non-Caster Quarterbacks/Buffers/Debuffers/etc. who don't do damage, but make everyone else do more damage (like Crusader, Warblade, PF Cavalier, etc.)? Should we hara-kiri as well?

Well, then the non-caster enemies should commit hara-kiri as well. Well done: Optimization = Magicka (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magicka). Hope you guys can sleep at night with your ARSE mines and Bugged Staves...

Edit: If anything *Holds up flame shield,* I'd prefer to play in a low-fantasy game with no full casters (maybe even no casters at all). Heck, maybe a world where magic doesn't exist and the word Wizard is a fantasy. THAT would be a better game of D&D.

[Flickerdart]

You appear to be confused. This is a thread for the purpose of working out the best way to ambush and murder someone that controls reality with their thoughts. It's not a thread for...whatever it is you're doing.

[Tokuhara]

You appear to be confused. This is a thread for the purpose of working out the best way to ambush and murder someone that controls reality with their thoughts. It's not a thread for...whatever it is you're doing.

Casters aren't god. Give me divine ranks, and I can tell any caster "No."

So here's my idea: a Base class that is centered around killing casters, and at 20th level, gives you a divine rank. Love to see Mr. Batman Wizard bead a True God

[Emperor Tippy]

Casters aren't god. Give me divine ranks, and I can tell any caster "No."
Only if they have Alter Reality, and only then because it's the single best spellcasting ability in the game (any spell of 9th level or lower cast as a standard action and any spell can be made permanent)


So here's my idea: a Base class that is centered around killing casters, and at 20th level, gives you a divine rank. Love to see Mr. Batman Wizard bead a True God
There was a thread here a month or so ago I believe where I posted how to kill a greater deity being played smart; without getting divine ranks of my own.

But picking up 20 divine ranks is easy.

[Flickerdart]

Quite simple - a demigod doesn't actually get all that much. Maximized HP, +30ft speed, +1 AC, +1 to-hit, +1 to saves and skill checks, a couple of immunities, some DR, some SR. You still fall like wheat to a scythe when faced with good ol' Sonic/Force Orb.

[Tokuhara]

How about a BC that gives you a divine rank every level and anti-caster class features (at-will AMF, manipulate gravity so a caster cannot fly, forced teleportation, and at level 20, permanently sever a caster's ability to cast spells with a touch) and call it done. Love to see Mr. Batman Wizard top permanent severing of spellcasting.

[Menteith]

How about a BC that gives you a divine rank every level and anti-caster class features (at-will AMF, manipulate gravity so a caster cannot fly, forced teleportation, and at level 20, permanently sever a caster's ability to cast spells with a touch) and call it done. Love to see Mr. Batman Wizard top permanent severing of spellcasting.

....?

How is this remotely related to the discussion at hand? Yes, if you create a homebrewed class that makes DanDwiki look balanced, you can create characters capable of defeating a Wizard. What's your point?

[Tokuhara]

I wish to apologize for the earlier posts. I needed to vent some pent up frustration against casters.

How about not trying to beat Batman, but maybe Robin. Think about it: how many DMs will throw a Batman wizard at the average D&D party? If you are one of these DMs, How do you sleep at night???

But consider this: Average wizard. We need an option to handle most of the wizards most of the time.

[Man on Fire]

I wish to apologize for the earlier posts. I needed to vent some pent up frustration against casters.

How about not trying to beat Batman, but maybe Robin. Think about it: how many DMs will throw a Batman wizard at the average D&D party? If you are one of these DMs, How do you sleep at night???

But consider this: Average wizard. We need an option to handle most of the wizards most of the time.


I think we should listen to thins gentleman (and I'm totally not going to homebrew a guy who will have to kill himself at some point).

[Randomguy]

Homebrew a hard-ish to get into PrC.

Make the requirements include mettle, evasion, a high touch AC, 2 of the mage slayer feats and high saves (not necessarily base saves). Maybe add a few more, to make it more exclusive. (You could make this some sort of monk based Mage Hunter and require a few monk abilities, maybe stunning fist, and maybe put a few swordsage maneuvers in the requirements as well)

The PrC should, eventually, grant:

freedom of movement
the same momentary disjunction ability as the Witch Slayer PrC (and possibly some others)
some more boosts to saves
some more boosts to touch AC
some of the abilities from the Occult Slayer PrC (choose the ones you like)
the ability to make custom alchemical items (an alchemical anchor mist and smoke bombs)
favoured enemy (arcanists) (anything that can cast spells/use spell like abilities) with the same progression as a ranger
some maneuvers (including possibly from shadow hand), a speed bonus
the ability to hitch a ride on a teleportation spell (dimension door? I think not!)
immunity to being unwillingly polymorphed (disintegrate would kill you, but you wouldn't turn into ashes, and you couldn't be petrified and so on.)
the spell reflection ACF (without replacing your evasion)
energy immunity/resistance (I suggest a single immunity that you can change as a full round action)
A permananent disobedience (it's a spell from complete scoundrel, think immunity to mind affecting and people are tricked into thinking they succeeded in controlling you) effect.
True Seeing.

[Flickerdart]

Planning for an average wizard means that you die when you meet an above average wizard, or just one you didn't prepare for. Considering the amount of options wizards have, this is a certainty.

[eggs]

Earlier I asked if Artificer counted. I wasn't trying to be flippant: I understand the appeal of a nonmagical character who is somehow able to stand up to the supers without himself having any super powers.

D&D's magic system sets a high bar for the character power needed to oppose spellcasters, but it also provides some tools that help to deal with it.

And because it does break the concept to give the character built-in spellcasting, it could work to let the character build and use tools in such a way to oppose superhuman opponents. Those wouldn't necessarily need to follow the same strictly mundane constraints.

It works for Bruce Wayne, after all.

[Tokuhara]

Planning for an average wizard means that you die when you meet an above average wizard, or just one you didn't prepare for. Considering the amount of options wizards have, this is a certainty.

Again, what DM makes the wizard optimal when the average party is half-optimal? We aren't looking at hitting the biggest, baddest bird in the flock, just hit as many as we can with one burst. Shotgun, not Sniper Rifle.

[Flickerdart]

Again, what DM makes the wizard optimal when the average party is half-optimal? We aren't looking at hitting the biggest, baddest bird in the flock, just hit as many as we can with one burst. Shotgun, not Sniper Rifle.
I didn't say optimal. I said, what if the wizard happens to have a loadout that's different from what you prepared for? It happens. Not all wizards are the same. If you're not prepared for that then you might as well be facing the super-wizard for all the good your build will do.

[Tokuhara]

I didn't say optimal. I said, what if the wizard happens to have a loadout that's different from what you prepared for? It happens. Not all wizards are the same. If you're not prepared for that then you might as well be facing the super-wizard for all the good your build will do.

I say have options for 90% of all wizards. Look at the average spell choices of the majority of players, and focus on trying to stop that, and not focus on Cheaty McCheaterface who is a w****

[Flickerdart]

I'm not talking about cheating, and am insulted that you think so.

Look at the most basic wizard option. They can specialize in one of 8 schools, or not specialize at all. They can trick out their familiar, or get rid of one for awesome abilities. They might persist many buffs and wade into battle, or stand back and burn things to ashes. They might have any one of thousands of spells prepared.

Spellcasters are the most versatile classes. You need to be able to stop more than the basics, because they're almost certainly guaranteed to deviate from the norm at least a bit, with all the options at their disposal. Hell, they could deviate differently every day. There is no such thing as "90% of wizards".

[Tokuhara]

{{Scrubbed}}

[Flickerdart]

Well, using a Bard is still technically using magic to fight magic...

[Menteith]

I say have options for 90% of all wizards. Look at the average spell choices of the majority of players, and focus on trying to stop that, and not focus on Cheaty McCheaterface who is a w****

Average spell choices....majority of players....

Alright, supply those for us and we'll do our best to help. Additionally, don't use the word "cheat", or "w****" unless someone's soliciting sex or is actually cheating.

Even with unoptimized Wizards, here's some basic stuff they can do that is remarkably difficult to deal with.

- Save or dies on every save
- The best defenses in the game; Invisibility, Flight, Heart of X line, etc
- Potential to become significantly stronger in melee than you are, through both buffs and shapechanging effects.
- Potential to summon creatures significantly stronger in melee than you are, through a number of mechanisms.
- The best movement mechanisms. You cannot keep up with someone with Teleport without also resorting to magic, even if you know where they are.
- The ability to hide from you. If you force a Wizard defensive, all they need to do is teleport to a different city. Without magic, you have no effective means of discerning their new location.
- The ability to find you. There are a huge number of spells they can use to accomplish this if they're aware you're trying to kill them.

I wouldn't throw a Wizard at an unoptimized party, period.

[Red_Dog]

Hmmm it seems that the thread, once again goes to where it was expected to go from the beginning.

As I've previously said. The death of the wizard is going to depend on his personality. If we are to craft the most paranoid, demented & malevolent wizard we can, than I will likely have nothing to say to it except -> find better/monster wizard. However. Assuming that every wizard will be played thru this personality seems completely unreasonable as wizards are not locked in to an alignment, code or stereotype. D&D after all is role-playing game, and a wizard is not always prepared for everything just by virtue of his "mortal" faults.

It is my opinion, however I doubt that I am "de-railing" this thread with it. = \

P.S.
Flickerdart=>

Does Rod of Absorption stop Disjunction? I couldn't find an answer to that.

[Flickerdart]

Disjunction isn't a single target effect - a Rod of Absorption is powerless against it.

[herrhauptmann]

So you want a build that not only starts on equal footing with spellcasters, but outpaces their quadratic progression? Without another spellcaster, you're not going to pull this off.
No, he wants up to 3 builds. One for each type of game breaker that does more than hit things with a stick.


Again, what DM makes the wizard optimal when the average party is half-optimal? We aren't looking at hitting the biggest, baddest bird in the flock, just hit as many as we can with one burst. Shotgun, not Sniper Rifle.
Well, given that the opening request was so vague, everybody is loaded for bear. They're going to remain loaded for bear, until the OP tells us what kind of casters to aim for. An evoker with weapon focus: quarterstaff is a lot less dangerous than Batman.
And yes, some DM's do make games like. I refer you to any thread started by Little Brother or Psycho. Which is fine in those games, because the players make the same sort of character.


What's the best I can hope for then?
Can we hope for some better guidelines on the exercise? Such as level to shoot for? Build for a PC (usually fighting higher level NPCS), build for NPC (killing lower leveled PCs)?
There are some builds that can work fine at low levels, say in a level 8 game. But even leveling them up to 15 won't help them kill a level 13 wizard.
Then there are other builds that suck at low levels, but start to come into their own later on, and might actually be useful against that level 13 wizard.

Oh, and here's a homebrew PrC that might be useful.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=221304

[Red_Dog]

Disjunction isn't a single target effect - a Rod of Absorption is powerless against it.

Hmmm... Interesting, I thought it was a targeted dispel that nuked your items. I forget, wasn't there a "spell turning" gadget aside from the Rod of Absorption that one could purchase? Or one would need to make it him/herself?O_0

[eggs]

Flick. Enjoy this song. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJe754cLbok)

It isn't worth the flame war that is about to happen, so since I can't say it, I'll let my buddy Blake tell you.
I hear that this is the most mature of all the ways to convince a person that you have a point, and aren't just ranting out of your ass.

[Flickerdart]

As far as I can recall off-hand, there are very few ways to protect yourself from a burst, aside from gaining total cover.

[eggs]

Since casters already get wings of cover and the celerity line, immediate action cover of some sort wouldn't exactly be treading new and brokener ground.

And whipping a shield or cape up still doesn't scream "magical power."

[Red_Dog]

As far as I can recall off-hand, there are very few ways to protect yourself from a burst, aside from gaining total cover.

So wand of wings of cover would do the trick than?

P.S. The psionic "extra swift action" race starts to look very good right about now as one would want to use the timestop boots right away heh.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: Thread locked for review.