Favored Class Crusader or Incarnate?

[smarti]

Hey,

was just wondering if there were any races with Favored Class crusader or incarnate (other than in the MoI) - maybe in some dragonmag?

Thanks.

[Answerer]

I'm 95% certain the answer is no.

Even Wizards stopped caring about Favored Class after a while. The multiclassing penalty rules are a bad idea to begin with, and are so poorly designed that they fail to achieve their goal even were it desirable. Almost every group ever ignores them in their entirety.

[eggs]

Anyone with a spare feat for Extra Favored Class (UA) or Diverse Background (RoD)?

[Particle_Man]

Almost every group ever ignores them in their entirety.

The plural of anecdote is not data, but I have never encountered a group IRL that ignored them. How big is your "almost" meant to be? 90%? And do you have data to back this up, keeping in mind that people that post on internet message boards are a small minority of gaming groups and not a representative sample of those groups?

[Godskook]

Does Human count?

And what's your build, cause often times, you can avoid multiclass penalties from more than one favored class selection.

Also, DMs who enforce multiclass penalties should be beaten with a stick before a jury of their players. Its about exactly half as bad as a player trying to play Cindy in a low-OP game.

Why? Cause it penalizes bad builds a lot and the best builds almost never. Its making wizards stronger and fighters weaker, which is *never* a good thing.

[smarti]

My DM is sadly kinda old school like that ;)
I found a race in MM5 though LA+2
I guess it's gonna be 2 Lvl Crusader (talked him at least into allowing ToB), 2 Totemist, 3 incarnate and Ironsoul after.

Ahh just read eggs reply, cool, ill look into that! Thanks.

Originally I wanted to do 3 inc, 2 totem, and Iron after - but ppl recommended to take crusader - and after giving that some thought and talking my dm into allowing it I thought it was a good idea - so then I thought about 1 Crusader, 4 incarnate and ironsoul after - but sadly I need a dwarf (or bend the rule with the prc) - so right now I am looking at the stated above.

[Prime32]

The problem is that favoured class mechanics punish you for having a concept that doesn't fit exactly into one class. And also punish non-casters, since they gain more from multiclassing than casters.

Plus the rules are weird enough that a fighter 1/rogue 1/wizard 1/barbarian 1/cleric 1/druid 1/bard 1/sorcerer 1 takes no penalties where a fighter 4/rogue 4 does (:smallconfused:), and are hard to adapt if you're using variant XP or just level up when the DM feels appropriate.

[Flickerdart]

Yeah, Favored Class is a terrible mechanic - it will penalize a perfectly normal and thematically consistent build like Scout 4/Fighter 2/Ranger 14 but leave alone both Wizard 3/Master Specialist 7/Incantatrix 10 (a very powerful build) and Fighter 2/Barbarian 2/Psychic Warrior 2/Cleric 1/Feat Rogue 2/Swordsage 2/Bard 2/Paladin of Freedom 2 (the most hodgepodge Frankenbuild I could come up with on the spot, with no rhyme or reason for its classes).

If Favored Class did what it was supposed to do, it would have categories, not just single classes - because the skill set for a Druid, Ranger and Scout overlaps heavily, so why should a race that's good at being a Ranger not be as good at keeping track of what's basically the same thing but under a different name?

...clearly I forgot to add Ninja 2 to that multiclass.

[The Crash Man]

Favored Class rules I can see the intent for. They wanted to add a little mechanical bonus for picking specific races based on the fluff. Problem is, half the time it either makes no sense (elves, who are woodland associated, have a con penalty, don't need to sleep, and get free bow penalty, getting wizard?) or just lead to problems with multiclassing. Wizards really dropped the ball there.

Instead, favored classes should have been favored, giving neat little bonuses for taking levels in those classes. Racial substitution levels achieve something similar, but still not exactly on the mark.

[JoshuaZ]

My preferred solution for favored classes is instead to have one get an extra skill point when one is taking a level of a favored class. The extra human skill point at each level then become just this. The only issue is that this matters a lot more for races with int penalties or with a favored class that has few skill points.

[FearlessGnome]

The plural of anecdote is not data, but I have never encountered a group IRL that ignored them. How big is your "almost" meant to be? 90%? And do you have data to back this up, keeping in mind that people that post on internet message boards are a small minority of gaming groups and not a representative sample of those groups?

And out of the four D&D campaigns (Three groups) I have played in we have not once used multiclassing exp penalties. Or exp, for that matter. Multiclassing penalties are loathed by every D&D player I have ever heard mention them IRL. So experiences differ. Certainly online the penalties are unpopular.

[Tokuhara]

By in far, Pathfinder (seriously, why isn't EVERYONE playing this?) has the best "Favored Class" system. No penalties, but benefits.

You can get +1HP/HD, +1 SP/LV, or a special bonus, like an extra spell from one level lower than current class level or a bonus to a class feature.

[Answerer]

If you must know, I'm not playing Pathfinder because several prominent and vocal members of Paizo's team leave an awful taste in my mouth, because they have little-to-no real grasp of the significance or ramifications of the mechanics they print, and because the entirety of the Pathfinder project struck me as over-hyped, under-tested, and overpriced. It's a series of houserules, some good, most poor, and none of which are worth shelling out anything for. And before you point out their SRD, it's awfully designed and obnoxious to navigate.

[Tokuhara]

If you must know, I'm not playing Pathfinder because several prominent and vocal members of Paizo's team leave an awful taste in my mouth, because they have little-to-no real grasp of the significance or ramifications of the mechanics they print, and because the entirety of the Pathfinder project struck me as over-hyped, under-tested, and overpriced. It's a series of houserules, some good, most poor, and none of which are worth shelling out anything for. And before you point out their SRD, it's awfully designed and obnoxious to navigate.

Maybe I should have brought the Flame Shield...

[Aegis013]

...obnoxious to navigate.

That is absolutely my experience with it. I prefer 3.5 mostly because it's what I'm familiar with, though.

[Kuulvheysoon]

IIRC, Rilkan and Skarn (MoI) get Incarnate as a Favoured Class.

[Particle_Man]

But if one doesn't like the FC system in 3.5, and doesn't like Pathfinder in general, one could still take the FC mechanic from Pathfinder and apply it to 3.5.

[Empedocles]

The plural of anecdote is not data, but I have never encountered a group IRL that ignored them. How big is your "almost" meant to be? 90%? And do you have data to back this up, keeping in mind that people that post on internet message boards are a small minority of gaming groups and not a representative sample of those groups?

Just for the record, every gaming group IRL I've played with ignored this group, and only about half of them were even casual browsers of the forums. I think most people do ignore this rule. That being said, I don't actually have, say, statistics to back this up. It's just from personal experience :smalltongue:


Instead, favored classes should have been favored, giving neat little bonuses for taking levels in those classes. Racial substitution levels achieve something similar, but still not exactly on the mark.

I like favored classes :smallbiggrin: And when you say "neat little bonuses..." are you by any chance inspired by Pathfinder? Just wondering.

[smarti]

@kuu, but they are not the solution to the dwarf problem ;)

So I have 3 options I guess:

Taking Favored Class feat from UA (the other one is for Half-Humans only as I read it)

1. Feat
2. Crus 3 / Inc 4 / Ironsoul rest
3. Crus 2 / Inc 3 / Totem 2 / Ironsoul rest


Option two would cost an incarnum level but would award LVL2 Strike for crusader and trade Totem soulmelds for Hand and feet chakra

Option three gives Totem soulmelds and chakras but closes off hand and feets.

What is your opinion on the matter?

I think that the MC rule does make kind of sense - it makes optimizing that much harder - more challenge ;)

[Answerer]

I think that the MC rule does make kind of sense - it makes optimizing that much harder - more challenge ;)
No, it doesn't. Multiclassing does not result in, nor is it required for, optimization.

Druid 20. There, you're optimized. Druid 10/Planar Shepherd 10 if you're crazy enough to allow PS.

The most powerful classes never, ever multiclass when optimizing. And Prestige Classes ignore the multiclassing penalties anyway.

No, what it does is it makes it harder to make the already-hard-to-use classes work, and it tries to penalize someone for playing their own character rather than the out-of-the-box character Wizards made for them (a massive exaggeration, I know, but multiclassing does represent the best of 3.5 since it allows you to really make your character: there's literally basically nothing else good about the system).