What happens when bad PCs go to Hell?

[Rickshaw]

Say a LE PC gets killed. he's made some deals with some fairly abyssal beings, and gets sucked into hell. Now; he's pretty high level, so he gets to keep his conciousness (also he's a PC) but he becomes a devil. The problem is he didn't exhibit any particular Major Cardinal Sins except maybe pride and wrath, and there arent really any devils that match that discription, which is what I'm looking for. This is part of an epic level hellcrawl campaign. alternately-are there any templates or such that could be applied? maybe a homebrewed devil class/race?

Alternatively, does he just stay human? does he become a form of undead?

[Righteous Doggy]

Well, pride and wrath sort of go with Lawful Evil anyway don't they? and does the sin really have to go with what he becomes? I think any devil can be prideful or wrathful personally... but for simplicity's sake I'd just throw on fiendish or half demon and keep the game moving. Not the best advice, but I thought I'd say something.

[Rickshaw]

true enough. What I meant was that there are no devils that particularly corrospond with those two traits, like lust->succubus or gluttony->nabasu. pit fiends kind of do, but that would be a little ridiculous :smalltongue:

edit: yes, succubi are demons. I was using them as an example.

[Righteous Doggy]

Succubus are demons aren't they? They're Chaotic Evil. I like Erinyes the best myself, but for some reason they're powers are about attraction instead of wrath...

[Feralventas]

There are probably devils and demons of all sorts, and if you look in the other sources (other Monster Manuals, Book of Vile Darkness, Fiend Folio, Fiendish Codex and the like) you should find plenty. Additionally, you could just slap on the Tann'ari template from the MM1 (page 316).

[Morithias]

Say a LE PC gets killed. he's made some deals with some fairly abyssal beings, and gets sucked into hell. Now; he's pretty high level, so he gets to keep his conciousness (also he's a PC) but he becomes a devil. The problem is he didn't exhibit any particular Major Cardinal Sins except maybe pride and wrath, and there arent really any devils that match that discription, which is what I'm looking for. This is part of an epic level hellcrawl campaign. alternately-are there any templates or such that could be applied? maybe a homebrewed devil class/race?

Alternatively, does he just stay human? does he become a form of undead?

Lemure.

It does not matter that he keeps his consciousness. You start at the bottom rung. After your soul is used for divine energy.

If he was especially powerful, he might get promoted to steel or legion devil, or maybe even imp, but no. You do not become a devil based on you sin, you become one via hard work and promotion.

Also Eriyres are fallen angels, you can't become those via promotion.

Edit: Source, Fiendish Codex 2

[hamishspence]

yes. Though in the Faerun-centric sidebar on page 9, it does say that exceptionally powerful souls can bargain for automatic promotion into something other than a lemure.

On page 27, it also says

"In a few rare cases, an exceptionally evil person might receive an automatic promotion to a higher devil form. Thus, a band of adventurers might conceivably slay a tyrant, only to see him return as a mighty devil. Such a transformation is rare, but it can happen."

On the minus side, on page 10, it says "devils never share the memories of the corrupt souls from which they originally came" - if applied to the automatically promoted, then said "mighty devil" will not remember anything about his former life.

[2xMachina]

Pretty sure Lemures ALSO do not remember their past.

But hey, if the DM wants to homebrew it a bit so that someone remembers their life, they're the DM. Maybe a previous deal to keep memories, or a memory jar, or something.

[rmg22893]

You do not become a devil based on you sin, you become one via hard work and promotion.

Hell. The original equal opportunity employer.

[hamishspence]

In Terry Pratchett's Discword novel Eric- the steps to Hell have carved on them various "good intentions" sentiments "I meant it for the best" "For the sake of the children" and so forth. One is "we are equal opportunity employers"

Interesting to see.

[Mikeavelli]

Indeed, the whole point of hell is that it sucks. Automatically getting promoted to being a powerful fiend takes a little of the edge off of getting into fiendish bargains.

[Red_Dog]

Ok, some clear ups.

=> No-one, and I mean, no-one by RAW[fiendish codex, forget the chapter, look up the beginning somewhere] retains consciousness when they are stripped of there soul. After you get to the 1st layer via styx ferry [here is your chance not to suffer some horrors! Drink from Styx now!!! Though if you do, there is 100% loss of character, as to my knowledge even wish can't reverse Styx amnesia, I could be wrong], you are processed [after all paperwork is filled, its a bureaucracy after all] to the torture chambers, where chain devils strip your soul from you. Soul [at this point a blob of energy] is used to make something useful[its a power source of sorts, read Fiendish codex, Vile Darkness and etc.] and your "shell" is pushed into a maggot pit. After some time passes, your shell turns into a lemure. After that this creature is completely and totally different from what a PC was.

A single way to skip century or so of being a lemure, is to strike a powerful[which is difficult] deal with a Harvester Devil or better yet a Pit Fiend. If the deal was worded correctly upon emergence from the magot Pit, you are immediately promoted as per a contract. A Devil can not break this deal[he will most likely get demoted if he does. Every devil is terrified of that more than of Death], so depending on circumstance you can skip few centuries of lemure-hood... [B]Or so you though[read below]

However, a final clause that you will most likely fall for and that you have to deal with is knowing the laws. If you start breaking hell laws, you will very quickly find yourself in the lemure form. In-fact, the point[so it seems] of a lemure form is to learn all those laws[and be humiliated for 100+ years of course]. Learning the laws in advance won't help, because remember -> You loose your memories, all of them.

So no matter how one spins it, there is unimaginable horror, pain, and loss of character. So warship some LE god and pray that he/she takes you into his/her demi-plane after your untimely/timely death. Or get immortality. If you want "devilishness", start as one. Or house rule, or DM fiat.

Good luck ^^.

P.S. Keep in mind, its your game so take this with a grain of "house rule" ^^. Devils are fun, playing with Nine Hells involved is fun. Fiendish Codex II is no book for 14 year old villains[BoVD has that cornered lol], its actually quite flavorful and truly dark. So have fun! ^^ I hope this helped ^^

[hamishspence]

you are processed [after all paperwork is filled, its a bureaucracy after all] to the torture chambers, where chain devils strip your soul from you. Soul [at this point a blob of energy] is used to make something useful[its a power source of sorts, read Fiendish codex, Vile Darkness and etc.] and your "shell" is pushed into a maggot pit. After some time passes, your shell turns into a lemure. After that this creature is completely and totally different from what a PC was.

It doesn't actually say that the soul is stripped from the being, but it does say that magical energy is:

"chain-slinging kytons and masked pain devils mercilessly terrorise and mutilate the souls of the damned until every scintilla of extractable magic has been wrung from them"

[Red_Dog]

It doesn't actually say that the soul is stripped from the being, but it does say that magical energy is:

"chain-slinging kytons and masked pain devils mercilessly terrorise and mutilate the souls of the damned until every scintilla of extractable magic has been wrung from them"

Fair enough. But still, as far as I know, after that or explicitly after maggot pit, you loose ALL of your personality/memories/etc. And you can't promote not a devil, so you have to go head first into the pit before you can be promoted[naturally, or via a powerful pact].

*Or am I mistaken? its been few month since I re-read FCII*

P.S. EDIT

I missed this line from your post =>

said "mighty devil" will not remember anything about his former life.
100%... unless another devil reminds him about this[because there is obviously something for him in this]. Perhaps that's the only way that an adventurers can face a "re-born" villain. It still will NOT be the same villain though as its now entirely different character. What makes this still pretty unlikely is that even getting to the point where a creature can be promoted[lemure-hood] takes quite a bit of time. Time in Baator flows at normal rate. So unless the party is going to time travel or the adventure spans over several years, this situation is unlikly to come up.

[hamishspence]

Soul shells are already outsiders- petitioners. I'm guessing that when they say "automatic promotion to something other than a lemure" they mean "transforming the soul shell straight into a powerful devil".

This should, however, be very rare, much more common is early promotion from the lemure stage.

[Red_Dog]

Soul shells are already outsiders- petitioners. I'm guessing that when they say "automatic promotion to something other than a lemure" they mean "transforming the soul shell straight into a powerful devil".

This should, however, be very rare, much more common is early promotion from the lemure stage.

As far as I recall, promotion process over all is a distinct trait of Baatezu. which means one must possess that subtype. There are plenty of outsiders, but only devils employ this mechanic because it seems inherent to them.

P.S. Is it a typeO that chain devils don't have Baatezu subtype?O_0 I just noticed that.

[Talakeal]

IIRC nobody gets to keep their memories are full personality when they die. You lose everything into a memory core which is dumped in the astral. From there you become a petitioner, which in the case of the lower planes means a Larva.

At this point, if you are strong willed enough and evil enough you might be able to evolve directly from a larva into a night hag. Otherwise, larva it is.

Larva with a penchant for lawful evil are usually turned into Lemures, and from there it is mostly luck whether or not you survive to be promoted. There is a very rigid promotion system in place for Baatezu, and if you get promoted at all, let alone skip ranks, depends on both how competent you are and how well you fit in with the Lawful Evil system. IIRC correctly the fast track to promotion, which might be appropriate for a soul with the potential to be a high level PC, goes Lemure > Spinagon > Abishai > Erinyes > Pit Fiend and then into the unique level of devilish nobility.

So yeah, not really what you had in mind. Of course, if he had a specific position guaranteed in a contract then I would imagine he would become whatever was specified in the terms of the pact he signed. If he was epic level before hand a unique devil would probably be the best.

[moritheil]

Ok, some clear ups.

After some time passes, your shell turns into a lemure. After that this creature is completely and totally different from what a PC was.

But it's always fun as a DM to give someone the memories of the original person, and let the group try to sort out whether or not the person is "in there." Remember - if you're not sure, and you're the DM, how much less sure are the players?


Fiendish Codex II is no book for 14 year old villains[BoVD has that cornered lol], its actually quite flavorful and truly dark. So have fun! ^^ I hope this helped ^^

Going from my past high school DnD sessions, I'm not certain that I'd say 14 year old villains can't be dark. It is, rather, a very studied and artificial darkness, coming from trying to overcompensate all the time.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

First off... making a deal with devils doesn't make you a devil, it makes you their bi... er... 'special assistant'. The whole point of the deal is that they get you when you die. They can't get you if you turn into some whacked-out powerful critter, you get them. That's not a deal any devil is likely to make.

"Congratulations, your uber-level PC? Weeeelll... remember The Little Mermaid? You remember when Triton signed the contract, and what he turned into? Yeaaaa... it's kinda like that."

Then it becomes a major quest to raid Hell to get the PC back, and another quest to get him back to what he was.

If, however, you want to give him an out, slap on the Half-Fiend template, complete with the LA +3, and call it his demonic transformation.

[Righteous Doggy]

Why can't it be the devil makes? If I want a minion or someone who can get things done or create chaos, a bit of power can go a long way... And he's only slightly more trustworthy than any other assistance a devil might have.

[moritheil]

Why can't it be the devil makes? If I want a minion or someone who can get things done or create chaos, a bit of power can go a long way... And he's only slightly more trustworthy than any other assistance a devil might have.

It can be whatever the DM wants - but Faustian bargains are drawn from, well, Faustian stories, and Shneekey is pointing out that these things usually end poorly for whoever takes the role of Faust.

[Red_Dog]

=>moritheil & ShneekeyTheLost

It can be whatever the DM wants - but Faustian bargains are drawn from, well, Faustian stories, and Shneekey is pointing out that these things usually end poorly for whoever takes the role of Faust.

Faustian pact is much like a "undefined wish"[wish for artifacts, immortality, etc.]. If the DM wants to screw you he/she will[I gave an example of how a fast promoted lemur can be demoted by not knowing the laws].



If, however, you want to give him an out, slap on the Half-Fiend template, complete with the LA +3, and call it his demonic transformation.
As far as I remember, Half-fiend is fairly akin to a half dragon which suggests promiscuity rather than a pact of some kind.

=>moritheil

That is why I mentioned=>

Keep in mind, its your game so take this with a grain of "house rule" ^^.
I played a Chained Devil once who's hate towards his killers was so strong that he managed to remember the last name of the family that killed him. Totally not RAW, but it was fun. ^^

Also "14 years old villains" comment refers to something that some people come to regard as "evIl" without much forethought. It was a joke, and I didn't mean to offend anyone with it = ]. But generically, I consider BoVD "evil" act be far from Fiendish codex II dark and ruthless intent. ^^

[hamishspence]

IIRC nobody gets to keep their memories are full personality when they die. You lose everything into a memory core which is dumped in the astral. From there you become a petitioner, which in the case of the lower planes means a Larva.

At this point, if you are strong willed enough and evil enough you might be able to evolve directly from a larva into a night hag. Otherwise, larva it is.

Larva with a penchant for lawful evil are usually turned into Lemures, and from there it is mostly luck whether or not you survive to be promoted.

actually no- different lower planes get different petitioners. Hades gets larvae, the Abyss gets manes, Hell gets soul shells, and planes like Tartarus, Acheron, Pandemonium, etc get their own petitioners with different basic traits (Manual of the Planes 3.5).