How did Xykon survive his fight...

[Thump]

between him and Darth V? I mean, the Empowered Sunburst alone did, according to RAW, 25d6 +50%, for a minimum of 62 (or more), and an average of about 105 (give or take 20). Even with all Xykon's HD, he has... D4s.

The, the Crushing Hand spell did a lot of damage as well.

And finally, the 10d6 backlash from Superb Dispelling.

???

EDIT: He has D12s, but no bonus HP.

Still, how?

And also, Explosive Runes from the phylactery.

[raymundo]

You should read what happens to a character's hit dice once he attains lichdom. Or wait 5 more minutes for some other poster to point it out in painstakin detail ;)

[Thrawn183]

Undead have d12's, I don't remember him being blinded, so I assume he made his saving throw as well.

Also, we don't know how many hit die Xykon has, nor what kind of buffs he had up (he may have had temporary hit points).

[theNater]

Let's say Xykon's level 21. Average hit points would be around 142. Remember that Sunburst allows a save for half damage, so if he made it he'd be taking 52 instead of 105, leaving him at 90.

Then the Crushing Hand deals 2d6+12. Average is 25, leaving Xykon with 65.

10d6 averages out to 35, leaving Xykon with 30 after the Superb Dispelling.

And, last and least, Explosive Runes does 6d6 damage. The average here is 21. Xykon gets through that with 9 hit points left.

On average, if Xykon makes that first save, he survives.

[zimmerwald1915]

Actually, the Empowered Sunburst would deal 37d6 damage assuming Darth V's caster level counted as 25 or above. Empower multiplies the "x" in the expression "xd6", not the damage put out by the dice. Still, Xykon did make his reflex save. Thus the average damage dealt would be 64, and the minimum damage dealt would be 18.

The Crushing Hand would deal 2d6+12 damage, for an average of 19 and a minimum of 14.

Superb Dispelling would deal 10d6, for an average of 35, and a minimum of 10.

Explosive Runes would deal 6d6, for an average of 21 and a minimum of 6.

The average damage Xykon would have taken would have been 139 HP, and the minimum damage would have been 48. Xykon's average HP total, assuming he's level 21 and not level 27, is 136. His average HP total at level 27 is 175. Rich, from what I've been able to tell, tends to throw minimum spell damage at V and to give her near-max hit points per hit die. There's no reason he shouldn't extend the same courtesy to Xykon, particularly given the latter's lack of a CON score. In any case, it's perfectly believable that Xykon would survive his fight with Darth V.

[Forikroder]

Let's say Xykon's level 21. Average hit points would be around 142. Remember that Sunburst allows a save for half damage, so if he made it he'd be taking 52 instead of 105, leaving him at 90.

Then the Crushing Hand deals 2d6+12. Average is 25, leaving Xykon with 65.

10d6 averages out to 35, leaving Xykon with 30 after the Superb Dispelling.

And, last and least, Explosive Runes does 6d6 damage. The average here is 21. Xykon gets through that with 9 hit points left.

On average, if Xykon makes that first save, he survives.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html

the explosive runes was more like a light breeze to him it was flashy but only managed to knowck away the Phylactery

[Ninjadeadbeard]

I could have sworn it was mentioned somewhere that Xykon was Level 28. I'm probably wrong, but I can't get that number out of my head.

[Kish]

Xykon's level has never been explicitly mentioned in the comic.

It is possible to draw conclusions about a minimum level based on the epic spells+twelfth-level spell slots he's demonstrated, but that hinges on Rich having bothered to reason it out that far and along the same reasoning path one is following, of course.

[hamishspence]

I think that had to do with what epic feats he'd need to do things like "maximised energy drain" (assuming core and no magic items like Sudden Metamagic rods).

[King of Nowhere]

I'd be surprised if Xykon hadn't invested a lot of money on protective equipment. He probably took less than the nominal damage.

plus, all characters tend to resist much more damage than they should, according to raw. Take for example roy vs thog, that should have ended in a couple of rounds. And V takes against samantha a maximized ligthning bolt, whose reflex dc was failed by haley.
I already theorized that in ootsworld hit die are maximized. That, or rich don't really care to keep an accurate hp count

[BatRobin]

Plot armor.

[zimmerwald1915]

I'd be surprised if Xykon hadn't invested a lot of money on protective equipment. He probably took less than the nominal damage.

plus, all characters tend to resist much more damage than they should, according to raw. Take for example roy vs thog, that should have ended in a couple of rounds. And V takes against samantha a maximized ligthning bolt, whose reflex dc was failed by haley.
I already theorized that in ootsworld hit die are maximized. That, or rich don't really care to keep an accurate hp count
That is very possible, especially for small-HD characters. Another possibility, and neither possibility is mutually exclusive, is that damage tends toward the minimum except for appropriately dramatic strikes.

[Myou]

Actually, the Empowered Sunburst would deal 37d6 damage assuming Darth V's caster level counted as 25 or above. Empower multiplies the "x" in the expression "xd6", not the damage put out by the dice. Still, Xykon did make his reflex save. Thus the average damage dealt would be 64, and the minimum damage dealt would be 18.

But it's the 6 is xd6 that is variable - it's a number between 1 and 6. The x is a set value determined by your level.

Empower should make xd6 into xd9. :smallconfused:

[Raimun]

Xykon survived because it was too early for him to die.
(I mean, not die as, you know, he's already dead but he's not dead-dead but still not really living either and...)

[The Wanderer]

Because the author doesn't give a damn about upholding D&D rules in the story.

Funny > Plot.

Plot >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rules

[Forikroder]

Because the author doesn't give a damn about upholding D&D rules in the story.

Funny > Plot.

Plot >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rules

hasnt it been theory crafted already that V didnt do enough damage to be able to kill Xykon?

he only hit him with a sunburst and a crushing hand i doubt 2 spells are enough to take down an epic level lich

[KillianHawkeye]

But it's the 6 is xd6 that is variable - it's a number between 1 and 6. The x is a set value determined by your level.

Empower should make xd6 into xd9. :smallconfused:

Who has any d9s?? :smallconfused::smallconfused:

[ysath]

You forgot the quickened chain lightning.

[Forikroder]

Who has any d9s?? :smallconfused::smallconfused:

who doesnt have a d9?

true gamers have a d anything, even if it isnt actually used for anything, why do you think so many people own D12s?


You forgot the quickened chain lightning.

lichs are immune

[Snails]

I think that had to do with what epic feats he'd need to do things like "maximised energy drain" (assuming core and no magic items like Sudden Metamagic rods).

There are also feats that accomplish Sudden Metamagic. It would suit some of his precious spell selections to invest in such a feat.

[Math_Mage]

But it's the 6 is xd6 that is variable - it's a number between 1 and 6. The x is a set value determined by your level.

Empower should make xd6 into xd9. :smallconfused:

Text says:

All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half.
"xd6" is a variable, numeric effect of a spell. At least from reading the feat description itself, no particular element of "xd6" is specified.

Now, it's my opinion that the appropriate course of action is to roll xd6 and multiply the result by 3/2, because that's the only way to guarantee equivalent probability distribution while increasing the result. I would also argue that semantics support my position--neither the die value nor the number of dice used is a "variable numeric effect," being constant for any instance of the spell, while the result certainly is a variable. But it's not made totally clear in the text what method should be used.

However, I would like to point out that your interpretation is especially unlikely, given that if using a spell that requires d3s, your interpretation leads to using d4.5s.

[Snails]

Roll damage the usual way, then add 1/2 that to the total.

Note that is not exactly the same as multiplying by 1.5, because a Maximized Empowered Fireball does (10 X 6) + .5(10d6) damage. The tricky part here is the empowered feat acts on the rolled damage. Maximize converts whatever is rolled into the maximum for each die. There is no order of operations, it happens in parallel.

BTW, the variable, numeric effect of a Magic Missile is d4+1. Empowered (9th level caster) becomes 1.5X(5d4 + 5).

[Querzis]

Plot armor.


Xykon survived because it was too early for him to die.
(I mean, not die as, you know, he's already dead but he's not dead-dead but still not really living either and...)


Because the author doesn't give a damn about upholding D&D rules in the story.

Funny > Plot.

Plot >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rules

It incredibly annoy me that even after other people pointed out that even with the lowest possible level for Xykon and no protective items or buff Xykon would still survive on average, we get comments like those. Its not just that its perfectly possible for Xykon to have survived it. Give him a few buffs, items and level around 27 and he didnt even get down to half hp! And mind you, his level his debatable, even though I really dont see him being under 25 but you wont make me believe that a guy who spent 8 hours each day crafting magic items, got a ring to make him immune to fire and always have overland flight cast on him didnt have quite a few buffs and protective items.

By the way, Crushing Hand does non-magical lethal damage, it really does exactly the same type of damage as anything else grappling you, so it did not actually get past Xykon damage reduction (which is why he doesnt react to it at all, Xykon has been known to show pain when things actually harm him).

[Knaight]

Because the author doesn't give a damn about upholding D&D rules in the story.

Funny > Plot.

Plot >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rules
That would explain why we get stuff like the blow by blow of the Miko fight happening exactly by rules, the consistency of rules being applied, the touches such as the petrifying beam of the prismatic beam cast at Qarr's friend being larger prior to said friends petrification, and all the other instances of Burlew upholding the rules just fine.

Or, you know, we can pretend that all that effort doesn't exist. That works too.

[ti'esar]

It incredibly annoy me that even after other people pointed out that even with the lowest possible level for Xykon and no protective items or buff Xykon would still survive on average, we get comments like those. Its not just that its perfectly possible for Xykon to have survived it. Give him a few buffs, items and level around 27 and he didnt even get down to half hp! And mind you, his level his debatable, even though I really dont see him being under 25 but you wont make me believe that a guy who spent 8 hours each day crafting magic items, got a ring to make him immune to fire and always have overland flight cast on him didnt have quite a few buffs and protective items.

By the way, Crushing Hand does non-magical lethal damage, it really does exactly the same type of damage as anything else grappling you, so it did not actually get past Xykon damage reduction (which is why he doesnt react to it at all, Xykon has been known to show pain when things actually harm him).

I agree. The Giant does not follow the D&D rules religiously, and can make mistakes when he is applying them. And certainly the funny>plot>rule formula is generally true for the comic. But there's plenty of evidence to suggest that Rich does write most fights with the rules in mind and that he even includes fairly subtle details about them in those fights (I'll point here to Xykon's backlash damage from Superb Dispelling, which for a long time I thought wasn't actually reflected in the comic).

So there's absolutely no reason to invoke the "power of plot" for why Xykon survived the damage he took from Darth V. As we see here, it can easily be explained within the rules.


the touches such as the petrifying beam of the prismatic beam cast at Qarr's friend being larger prior to said friends petrification

Huh - I never picked up on that before. Neat!

[Bundin]

It incredibly annoys me that people think that the author needs him/her rushing to his defense every time someone dares to imply something vaguely.. no, it's not even negative in this case, just an observation.. about author or comic.

Rich has repeatedly posted that funny + plot > rules. That he doesn't particularly care about the rules, that he doesn't write specifically with every single rule in mind, and that people who want rules-consistent comics should read something else because oots isn't that. "Word of God" actually confirms the statements that annoy you, especially the first one.

The way I see it, the only reason Xykon didn't die is because Rich decided it wasn't time, exactly like the quotes say. Sure, Rich "made" V cast spells with enough potential damage, that may or may not have been intentional (and there's no way to be sure) but Xykons survival has nothing to do with die rolls and everything to do with Rich deciding how the battle should end. Don't be oversensitive to posts that you consider to be "critique".

[Tricia]

Rich is familiar enough with D&D to know what a Lich of Xykon's approximate level could survive. While he didn't sit there and roll the dice, I'm fairly confident that he took a moment to think about what V would cast and if it was possible for Xykon to survive it. And, as has been shown in this thread, it doesn't take much thought to say "Yes". Yes, Rich doesn't always adhere to D&D rules. But that doesn't mean the first assumption should be that he threw them out the window, unless it's something obvious like a joke. Is it possible he did? Sure. But Rich generally decides that the rules don't matter for things like spell descriptions, or some random spell he wants to make up, or other minor minutia. Things like large complex fight sequences, he generally at least keeps the rules in mind, and in at least one case, completely scripts it out. While he does say "Plot > Rules", that doesn't mean that our first assumption should be "A wizard did it" or "Plot armor". If no other explanation suits the situation, sure...we can come to that conclusion. Or if Rich said he ignored the rules or forgot about a rule or something. But to immediately jump to that conclusion, especially when the rules of D&D pretty easily allow Xykon to survive without "Plot Armor" is just silly.

Besides which...some people find threads like this and extrapolating what we can guess about the characters in the comic to answer silly questions like this to be fun. So lighten up, Francis.

[rgrekejin]

I'll point here to Xykon's backlash damage from Superb Dispelling, which for a long time I thought wasn't actually reflected in the comic.

Can you point out to me where this is? I can't see it, even though I'm specifically looking for it.

[hamishspence]

And mind you, his level his debatable, even though I really dont see him being under 25 but you wont make me believe that a guy who spent 8 hours each day crafting magic items, got a ring to make him immune to fire and always have overland flight cast on him didnt have quite a few buffs and protective items.

He got an item of fire immunity (if his hint here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html) is honest- but we never actually see it so we don't know what it is.

While "Ring of Energy Immunity" (an epic ring) is a fairly reasonable surmise, it would put his level way up, due to the restrictions of the Forge Ring feat:


Forge Epic Ring [Item Creation][Epic]
Prerequisites
Forge Ring, Knowledge (arcana) 35 ranks, Spellcraft 35 ranks.

Benefit
You can forge magic rings that exceed the normal limits for such items.


which would put him at level 32 minimum.

[Marlowe]

It incredibly annoys me that people think that the author needs him/her rushing to his defense every time someone dares to imply something vaguely.. no, it's not even negative in this case, just an observation.. about author or comic.

Rich has repeatedly posted that funny + plot > rules. That he doesn't particularly care about the rules, that he doesn't write specifically with every single rule in mind, and that people who want rules-consistent comics should read something else because oots isn't that. "Word of God" actually confirms the statements that annoy you, especially the first one.

The way I see it, the only reason Xykon didn't die is because Rich decided it wasn't time, exactly like the quotes say. Sure, Rich "made" V cast spells with enough potential damage, that may or may not have been intentional (and there's no way to be sure) but Xykons survival has nothing to do with die rolls and everything to do with Rich deciding how the battle should end. Don't be oversensitive to posts that you consider to be "critique".

High noise to signal ratio is always annoying. The entire thread is based on a simple mechanical misunderstanding that required a simple mechanical answer. The posts listed aren't "critique". They are simply clutter.

[factotum]

Can you point out to me where this is? I can't see it, even though I'm specifically looking for it.

I just looked at this myself, and I think he means that Xykon acquires a white damage cross on his robe in the panel where he casts the spell--it's not there in the earlier panel where he deflects one of V's spells.

[Hbgplayer]

[QUOTE=theNater;13129447]And, last and least, Explosive Runes does 6d6 damage.QUOTE]

What I really want to know is how the blazes Blackwing survived this!

[zimmerwald1915]

What I really want to know is how the blazes Blackwing survived this!
A wizard's familiar has Improved Evasion by that level, meaning that even though Blackwing failed his saving throw, he took half damage. And Blackwing had 19 hit points at the time (since Vaarsuvius had 38). The average damage output of an Explosive Runes spell is 21. Halve that, and you get 10. That's more than enough to shave off half of Blackwing's hit points, but not enough to kill him.

[Myou]

Text says:

"xd6" is a variable, numeric effect of a spell. At least from reading the feat description itself, no particular element of "xd6" is specified.

Now, it's my opinion that the appropriate course of action is to roll xd6 and multiply the result by 3/2, because that's the only way to guarantee equivalent probability distribution while increasing the result. I would also argue that semantics support my position--neither the die value nor the number of dice used is a "variable numeric effect," being constant for any instance of the spell, while the result certainly is a variable. But it's not made totally clear in the text what method should be used.

However, I would like to point out that your interpretation is especially unlikely, given that if using a spell that requires d3s, your interpretation leads to using d4.5s.

The x is not variable because your caster level is not variable - you don't roll for caster level, it's constant throughout the spell casting. By that logic the spell range is also a variable, and is thus increased by half.

The correct application is either increasing the die size or just multiplying by 1.5 (either works by RAW), my point was more that the x isn't a variable.

Of course you could model the effect by just rolling more d6's.


Anyway, this is tangential to the thread.

[factotum]

Now, it's my opinion that the appropriate course of action is to roll xd6 and multiply the result by 3/2, because that's the only way to guarantee equivalent probability distribution while increasing the result.

Actually, this is not quite correct. As you roll more dice, the resulting probability distribution gets closer to an ideal bell curve, but the most likely number to come out will always be the average of the minimum and maximum rolls. This means that the most likely number when rolling 2d6 is 7, and when rolling 3d6 is 10.5 (ignoring for the moment you can't get a fractional die roll)--which means rolling 2d6 and multiplying by 1.5 is nearly the same as just rolling 3d6, except you get a slightly better approximation to a "perfect" probability distribution with the latter.

Once you get to very large numbers of dice the difference in probability distribution is negligible, so rolling 1.5 times as many dice is near enough identical to rolling the normal number and then multiplying the result by 1.5 (assuming all you're worried about is the distribution of numbers--you'll obviously get values with the extra dice rolls that are impossible using the simple multiplication). This is probably why the rules don't feel the need to specify exactly how you perform this upscaling, because it makes no difference either way!

[The Wanderer]

It incredibly annoy me that even after other people pointed out that even with the lowest possible level for Xykon and no protective items or buff Xykon would still survive on average, we get comments like those. Its not just that its perfectly possible for Xykon to have survived it.


That would explain why we get stuff like the blow by blow of the Miko fight happening exactly by rules, the consistency of rules being applied, the touches such as the petrifying beam of the prismatic beam cast at Qarr's friend being larger prior to said friends petrification, and all the other instances of Burlew upholding the rules just fine.

Or, you know, we can pretend that all that effort doesn't exist. That works too.

You guys are aware that the author of this comic/owner of this site has said on multiple occasions that he doesn't follow the rules. He's writing a story, not a D&D campaign.

If you don't believe me, have a look on the news page under the update for 1/12/2012:


Plus I barely even reference the 3.5 rules anymore, using them just to determine what sort of spells or class abilities a character might have and then ignoring them the rest of the time. I'm certainly not looking to drive this narrative backwards to a point where I'm more chained to a ruleset over which I have no control. No, as an author, I'm more interested in deciding what happens in my world than I am in ceding that power to others.

Or take a look at the thread cataloging the things Rich has said (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220195). He has repeatedly said he doesn't care about rules in the slightest.


"Who cares? I sure don't. If you are looking for moment-to-moment rules accuracy from this comic, you probably should stop reading. You are guaranteed to be continually frustrated and disappointed, because I don't care about that at all. "

(Heck, I've got a link to that quote right in the spoiler box in my sig)

And so on and so forth.

So, in the end, V couldn't beat Xykon because that wasn't what the author wanted to happen. Regardless of how overpowered people might think V was, or how simple a mechanic it was for why he didn't win, the reason he didn't win was because it wasn't the end of the story. That part of the story was about setting up character development and a change of attitude for V, and setting up the subplot with the IFCC having control of V's body.

And in the end, however much some members of the community like rules speculation, it's as accurate a tool for why things happen in the comic as it would be for why things happen in Lord of the Rings.

Sorry, but that's the real answer. My apologies if it's not the one some of you guys wanted.

[Marlowe]

Even when a much more simple and factual correct answer is "because Vaarsuvious did not do enough damage?"

The trouble with your answer is that it misses the entire point of asking questions on this forum at all. People don't want to hear "Because it's just a story". They KNOW it's a story. They want to know how interior mechanics can justify the events. In this case, the answer was very simple, you missed it, muddied the issue, and you're still doing so.

[Vladislav]

There is a feat or a special ability (in Libris Mortis?) that allows undead to add their Charisma modifier to their hit die. That might explain it.

Oh, and to all the "because it's a story" folks: there's only so many times you can whip out the "because it's a story" excuse before it ceases to be a good story. Don't overdo it.

[rgrekejin]

So, in the end, V couldn't beat Xykon because that wasn't what the author wanted to happen.

*snip*

Sorry, but that's the real answer. My apologies if it's not the one some of you guys wanted.

...I think you have fundamentally misunderstood the point of this discussion. Yes, of course V couldn't beat Xykon because Rich didn't want to V to be able to beat Xykon. Rich is the author. He is the final arbiter of what does or does not happen in the comic. Can we file this observation under "true, but useless" and never refer to it again?

In any work of fiction, things happen for two reasons -
a. whatever the in-universe reason is
b. whatever reason the author has for wanting that event to take place

This thread is asking a category a question, and people keep giving category b answers. They're true, but they have no bearing on the situation.

Authorial whim, except in the very poorest of writing, always has an in-universe explanation. Take, for example, DC and Marvel's crossover event a few years back which pitted similar popular characters against one another and let fans vote on the results. One fight had DC's Lobo the Bounty Hunter going up against Marvel's Wolverine. On paper, this is a complete mismatch in favor of Lobo (please, no arguments on this point, I don't care how cool Wolverine is, this is just basically true). However, Lobo lost the fight. Everyone cried foul. Wolverine had won, they argued, because of thinly-disguised authorial fiat. He won because he was supposed to win, not because there was any realistic way he should have. It always kind of bothered me, too. Years later, I discovered that there was actually an official explanation for how Wolverine won: Lobo threw the fight. Sure, the very existence of his universe was at stake, but... they offered him a lot of money. I mean, a LOT of money. It was hilarious, and entirely in keeping with Lobo's character. There is an in-universe explanation (Lobo was bribed to throw the fight) and an authorial explanation (Wolverine won the voting poll, so he had to win, somehow). They are not the same.

Why, in-universe, were Super-V's powers insufficient to kill Xykon is an entirely reasonable question to ask. And, as it turns out, there is an entirely reasonable in-universe answer. V's abilities, as enhanced as they were, simply weren't up to snuff to kill Xykon. He could take more damage than she could shell out.

edit: Ninja'd, I suppose.

[ti'esar]

...I think you have fundamentally misunderstood the point of this discussion. Yes, of course V couldn't beat Xykon because Rich didn't want to V to be able to beat Xykon. Rich is the author. He is the final arbiter of what does or does not happen in the comic. Can we file this observation under "true, but useless" and never refer to it again?

In any work of fiction, things happen for two reasons -
a. whatever the in-universe reason is
b. whatever reason the author has for wanting that event to take place

This thread is asking a category a question, and people keep giving category b answers. They're true, but they have no bearing on the situation.

Authorial whim, except in the very poorest of writing, always has an in-universe explanation. Take, for example, DC and Marvel's crossover event a few years back which pitted similar popular characters against one another and let fans vote on the results. One fight had DC's Lobo the Bounty Hunter going up against Marvel's Wolverine. On paper, this is a complete mismatch in favor of Lobo (please, no arguments on this point, I don't care how cool Wolverine is, this is just basically true). However, Lobo lost the fight. Everyone cried foul. Wolverine had won, they argued, because of thinly-disguised authorial fiat. He won because he was supposed to win, not because there was any realistic way he should have. It always kind of bothered me, too. Years later, I discovered that there was actually an official explanation for how Wolverine won: Lobo threw the fight. Sure, the very existence of his universe was at stake, but... they offered him a lot of money. I mean, a LOT of money. It was hilarious, and entirely in keeping with Lobo's character. There is an in-universe explanation (Lobo was bribed to throw the fight) and an authorial explanation (Wolverine won the voting poll, so he had to win, somehow). They are not the same.

Why, in-universe, where Super-V's powers insufficient to kill Xykon is an entirely reasonable question to ask. And, as it turns out, there is an entirely reasonable in-universe answer. V's abilities, as enhanced as they were, simply weren't up to snuff to kill Xykon. He could take more damage than she could shell out.

edit: Ninja'd, I suppose.

I'd been preparing a lengthy post on the subject, but that pretty much says everything I could, except better, so never mind.

[SadisticFishing]

Actually, this is not quite correct. As you roll more dice, the resulting probability distribution gets closer to an ideal bell curve, but the most likely number to come out will always be the average of the minimum and maximum rolls. This means that the most likely number when rolling 2d6 is 7, and when rolling 3d6 is 10.5 (ignoring for the moment you can't get a fractional die roll)--which means rolling 2d6 and multiplying by 1.5 is nearly the same as just rolling 3d6, except you get a slightly better approximation to a "perfect" probability distribution with the latter.


Um, I believe you've missed his point, in that that was exactly his point.

Roll 10d6, multiply result by 1.5 keeps the distribution the same as rolling 10d6. Rolling 15d6 lowers the variance, squeezing the likely results inwards.

[Querzis]

It incredibly annoys me that people think that the author needs him/her rushing to his defense every time someone dares to imply something vaguely.. no, it's not even negative in this case, just an observation.. about author or comic.

Rgrekejin already said almost everything that needed to be said about this so I'll just add, yes it is negative in this case. Its incredibly negative. What Rich post meant was just that he cared more about the story then the rules which, guess what, basically meant that most of the time there was an in-story reason for stuff happening instead of a rule reason why stuff happened.

There is always an in-universe reason why stuff happen. If there isnt, if the only reason why something happened in a story is because «the author wanted it to happen» or «because its a story» then its an awful story. And this is not an awful story. Hell, this is the reason why I stopped watching Code Geass despite previously loving the show (I wasnt the only one pissed off by that whole deal with Euphemia). Anyway, I can easely find an explanation for absolutely everything that happened in the comic. So I'll say again that I find it incredibly annoying when people simply say «because its a story». Yes, it is in fact insulting the author regardless of if you realize it or not because it is basically saying that the author coudnt come up with an in-universe reason for something that happened. It also bring absolutely nothing to the discussion since the discussion is always about the in-universe reason why something happened.

[factotum]

Roll 10d6, multiply result by 1.5 keeps the distribution the same as rolling 10d6. Rolling 15d6 lowers the variance, squeezing the likely results inwards.

Except I don't think it *does* when you're talking about the numbers of dice we're talking about--the difference in the resulting probability curve is going to be negligible. The difference between 2d6 and 3d6 is quite large, of course; the difference between 20d6 and 30d6, not so much.

[Winter]

If talking Xykon's HPs, consider the possibility Redcloak cast Desecrate before turning Xykon into an undead. In that case, Xykon had like 17 to 20 HPs more than he should have, those make some difference.

[Math_Mage]

Except I don't think it *does* when you're talking about the numbers of dice we're talking about--the difference in the resulting probability curve is going to be negligible. The difference between 2d6 and 3d6 is quite large, of course; the difference between 20d6 and 30d6, not so much.

My basic claim was that multiplying the result is the only way to be assured of NO difference in the probability distribution of results. And while there's little overall difference between 20d6x1.5 and 30d6, in some places the difference is quite large--the odds of getting a 30 or 180, for example.

Of course, in terms of practicality, 20d6x1.5 often results in fractional damage, whereas 30d6 does not. It's a lesser version of the problem of trying to roll d4.5s.

@Myou, I DID say that both the die size and the number of dice are not variables. What puzzles me is your conclusion is that die size can be multiplied, but die count cannot. Surely either NEITHER can be multiplied, since neither are variables and both change the probability distribution, or BOTH can be multiplied as valid ways to increase the average result by 1/2.

[King of Nowhere]

There is a feat or a special ability (in Libris Mortis?) that allows undead to add their Charisma modifier to their hit die. That might explain it.

Oh, and to all the "because it's a story" folks: there's only so many times you can whip out the "because it's a story" excuse before it ceases to be a good story. Don't overdo it.

In every story things happens because the story needs them to happen that way.
Why didn't aragorn die of heart attack after running too much? because the story needed him alive.
Why superman didn't go nut and crash down the entire city figuring it would be a quicker way to take evildoers than singling them out? Because the story needs him to be the hero.

That's not how suspension of disbelief works. Things must have a reasonable in-world reason. of course they happen for the story, but the story need to make sense. If things happen that did not make sense, then it's deus ex machina or stuff like that, and they quickly turn the story into a bad story.

Now, Xykon winning the figth made perfect sense within the way that world works. So it is fine. Miko defeating oots also made perfect in-world sense. No need to all for "plot reason". plot reason is applied only when it make no sense for the thing to happen.

And rich don't really cares about the rules, but those rules make the framework of his universe. he's ignoring them in the same way that a writer of a story in the real world may ignore the laws of physics: you can get away with minor stuff like the exact tickness of metal a bullet of a certain weapon can or cannot pierce, but you can't make an intact plane still filled with air sink under the sea without losing credibility.

[Raimun]

It incredibly annoy me that even after other people pointed out that even with the lowest possible level for Xykon and no protective items or buff Xykon would still survive on average, we get comments like those. Its not just that its perfectly possible for Xykon to have survived it. Give him a few buffs, items and level around 27 and he didnt even get down to half hp! And mind you, his level his debatable, even though I really dont see him being under 25 but you wont make me believe that a guy who spent 8 hours each day crafting magic items, got a ring to make him immune to fire and always have overland flight cast on him didnt have quite a few buffs and protective items.

By the way, Crushing Hand does non-magical lethal damage, it really does exactly the same type of damage as anything else grappling you, so it did not actually get past Xykon damage reduction (which is why he doesnt react to it at all, Xykon has been known to show pain when things actually harm him).

So... you're saying Dashing Swordsman-instincts aren't valid evidence? :smallconfused:

[Querzis]

So... you're saying Dashing Swordsman-instincts aren't valid evidence? :smallconfused:

...were you trying to reply to another message or to another thread cause I have no idea what you're talking about. What do Dashing Swordsman have to do with anything I said in that message?

[torugo]

I think that was the best answer made for this kind of discussion. I wish it came more often 'cause every now or then people use the "Its a story" answer to explain whatever happens on the comic.

A good story must follow some rules otherwise its not worth writing. I dont need to go to Marvel vs DC to explain it. If I read a romance where a man is stabbed in the heart and survives without proper medical care, I just stop reading because it makes no sense. I know people in the real world die if the heart is perfurated by a knife. We can even accept some stretch on reality like when we watch Indiana Jones and other action movies, but it has a limit.

We may be in a fantasy setting, but we also accepted D&D as the rules on which this fantasy setting work on. An author may stretch the rules to fit in a story, but to a certain limit. After such limit it gets just boring.


I felt like that after reading the way Xykon defeats Dorukan...i still think that fight was lame exactly by the lack of reaction on Dorukan's part and on the fact he came completelly unprepared to fight. It was for me a momment where the author stretched the reality so much to his story that spoiled the end of the book for me.





...I think you have fundamentally misunderstood the point of this discussion. Yes, of course V couldn't beat Xykon because Rich didn't want to V to be able to beat Xykon. Rich is the author. He is the final arbiter of what does or does not happen in the comic. Can we file this observation under "true, but useless" and never refer to it again?

In any work of fiction, things happen for two reasons -
a. whatever the in-universe reason is
b. whatever reason the author has for wanting that event to take place

This thread is asking a category a question, and people keep giving category b answers. They're true, but they have no bearing on the situation.

Authorial whim, except in the very poorest of writing, always has an in-universe explanation. Take, for example, DC and Marvel's crossover event a few years back which pitted similar popular characters against one another and let fans vote on the results. One fight had DC's Lobo the Bounty Hunter going up against Marvel's Wolverine. On paper, this is a complete mismatch in favor of Lobo (please, no arguments on this point, I don't care how cool Wolverine is, this is just basically true). However, Lobo lost the fight. Everyone cried foul. Wolverine had won, they argued, because of thinly-disguised authorial fiat. He won because he was supposed to win, not because there was any realistic way he should have. It always kind of bothered me, too. Years later, I discovered that there was actually an official explanation for how Wolverine won: Lobo threw the fight. Sure, the very existence of his universe was at stake, but... they offered him a lot of money. I mean, a LOT of money. It was hilarious, and entirely in keeping with Lobo's character. There is an in-universe explanation (Lobo was bribed to throw the fight) and an authorial explanation (Wolverine won the voting poll, so he had to win, somehow). They are not the same.

Why, in-universe, were Super-V's powers insufficient to kill Xykon is an entirely reasonable question to ask. And, as it turns out, there is an entirely reasonable in-universe answer. V's abilities, as enhanced as they were, simply weren't up to snuff to kill Xykon. He could take more damage than she could shell out.

edit: Ninja'd, I suppose.

[Querzis]

I felt like that after reading the way Xykon defeats Dorukan...i still think that fight was lame exactly by the lack of reaction on Dorukan's part and on the fact he came completelly unprepared to fight. It was for me a momment where the author stretched the reality so much to his story that spoiled the end of the book for me.


...wasnt that Xykon whole plan? Enraging him up by taunting him with the soul of his dead girlfriend so that Durokan would come out to fight on his turf instead of Xykon having to go fight him in his tower? And what do you mean lack of reaction? He seemed plenty angry to me. There was already thread on the subject, it was pretty clear there that except for wasting a wish spell and losing experience to get a cleric buff, there was nothing Durokan could do to defend himself against an energy drain spam.

[torugo]

...wasnt that Xykon whole plan? Enraging him up by taunting him with the soul of his dead girlfriend so that Durokan would come out to fight on his turf instead of Xykon having to go fight him in his tower? And what do you mean lack of reaction? He seemed plenty angry to me. There were already thread on the subject, it was pretty clear there that except for wasting a wish spell and losing experience to get a cleric buff, there was nothing Durokan could do to defend himself against an energy drain spam.

I dont want to go away from the main topic of this discussion, but even because i already made in the past a post about that fight and i didnt get satisfied with the answers back then. Fact is Dorukan gets like...3 energy drains in a row without using a single spell (people told me the spells he used had no effect so giant didnt show it but i think not showing it only makes it bad). Even before the energy drains he used a gate and just stood there watching. And he went to fight an undead without using any spell to resist energy drain??? He was on that tower watching an army of undeads and didnt prepare the most basic of all spells to fight undeads? Where was dorukan using his 18+ int score? It was not like V who was counting with time stop to buff...he had plenty of time to buff before fighting.

[Querzis]

I dont want to go away from the main topic of this discussion, but even because i already made in the past a post about that fight and i didnt get satisfied with the answers back then. Fact is Dorukan gets like...3 energy drains in a row without using a single spell (people told me the spells he used had no effect so giant didnt show it but i think not showing it only makes it bad) and he went to fight an undead without using any spell to resist energy drain??? He was on that tower watching an army of undeads and didnt prepare the most basic of all spells to fight undeads? Where was dorukan using his 18+ int score? It was not like V who was counting with time stop to buff...he had plenty of time to buff before fighting.

Once again, theres only one spell to protect against energy drain and its a not a wizard spell (death ward). He didnt know Energy drain was Xykon signature spell mind you but even assuming Dorukan was aware that this spell existed which is dubious (he coudnt cast it, wizard dont tend to know what other class can do as Vaarsivius no doubt showed plenty of times) using wish and possibly losing levels and your most powerfull spells just to buff yourself really aint a good idea. Its not like Xykon coudnt have easely dispelled it anyway. And honestly, after the first energy drain, the fight was already over, I dont see what showing Durokan use level 7 spells, then level 5 spells and finally level 2-3 spells to try and counter Xykon would have accomplished. Also he didnt «stand there watching» after casting gate, we see them cast spells and counterspells at each others in the backgrounds while the brothers talk.

[Kish]

Once again, theres only one spell to protect against energy drain and its a cleric spell (death ward). He didnt know Energy drain was Xykon signature spell mind you but even assuming Dorukan was aware that this spell existed which is dubious (he didnt even have a cleric in his old party,
Death Ward is a druid spell.

...And a paladin spell, actually.

Two of Dorukan's previous companions could prepare and cast it.

[Querzis]

Death Ward is a druid spell.

...And a paladin spell, actually.

Two of Dorukan's previous companions could prepare and cast it.

Alright I edited it. Dont really see how it change my point all that much though.

[factotum]

Two of Dorukan's previous companions could prepare and cast it.

Both of whom were already dead at the point this battle took place, so it's not like Dorukan could go to them and get them to cast it on him; there's also no reason why they would have ever told him about the spell unless they'd had a need to use it during their adventures, which is an entirely unknown factor.

[Marlowe]

In OOTS-verse characters seem to generally be pretty aware of other classes abilities. Hell, the running gag with Elan is that other characters seem more aware of what a Bard can do than he can.

Even without this it would be incredibly strange for an Epic Level wizard not to be aware that a spell protecting against death effects even exists. It's almost equally strange for a party to get to epic levels without feeling the need for such a spell at least once. It's also not like the OOTS-verse isn't crawling with nameless Clerics, even if the number that are level 7 or higher is a lot lower.

[Eloel]

The x is not variable because your caster level is not variable - you don't roll for caster level, it's constant throughout the spell casting. By that logic the spell range is also a variable, and is thus increased by half.

The correct application is either increasing the die size or just multiplying by 1.5 (either works by RAW), my point was more that the x isn't a variable.

Of course you could model the effect by just rolling more d6's.


Anyway, this is tangential to the thread.

I always thought empower would give you 10d6 + (10d6)/2 damage, for 20 total dice rolled.

Kinda like Maximized Empowered giving 60 + (10d6)/2 and not 90?

[Winter]

Fact is Dorukan gets like...3 energy drains in a row without using a single spell (people told me the spells he used had no effect so giant didnt show it but i think not showing it only makes it bad).

As I only speak in very general terms, I remove the spoiler. Please re-add it if your reply spoilers more of that fight.

Correct is that it is not "fact". Dorukan did cast spells in between but they did not matter. I think not-showing them really adds to confusion and it is bad that is not even hinted from within SoD, but that scene there really was not about that fight at all.
What it was about it showed perfectly and I never bothered that Dorukan got "too few" spells than he should have until people here complained.

But let's sort things out: That we did not see Dorukan's spells is not that the in-universe explanation is in any way bad, it is just that the storytelling around it is not ideal in this regard.

So let us not confuse "The in-universe explanation is not very clear from the material" (if it is even necessary for the point the story makes is another question) with "the in-universe explanation does not work at all".

[Nightmarenny]

You guys are aware that the author of this comic/owner of this site has said on multiple occasions that he doesn't follow the rules. He's writing a story, not a D&D campaign.

If you don't believe me, have a look on the news page under the update for 1/12/2012:



Or take a look at the thread cataloging the things Rich has said (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220195). He has repeatedly said he doesn't care about rules in the slightest.



(Heck, I've got a link to that quote right in the spoiler box in my sig)

And so on and so forth.

So, in the end, V couldn't beat Xykon because that wasn't what the author wanted to happen. Regardless of how overpowered people might think V was, or how simple a mechanic it was for why he didn't win, the reason he didn't win was because it wasn't the end of the story. That part of the story was about setting up character development and a change of attitude for V, and setting up the subplot with the IFCC having control of V's body.

And in the end, however much some members of the community like rules speculation, it's as accurate a tool for why things happen in the comic as it would be for why things happen in Lord of the Rings.

Sorry, but that's the real answer. My apologies if it's not the one some of you guys wanted.
The people pointing out "he won because the author wanted him to" are annoying because everybody already knows this.

In taking part in this discussion all participants are implicitly agreeing to argue something within the scope of the story. Treating the events within and the rules the world follows as real for the discussion and ignoring that we really already know the answer.

By bringing up that everything happens on the whim of the author and not necessarily do to any internal logic you are refusing to take part in the discussion and "metaing". You are also implying that everyone taking part in the discussion is unaware of the very obvious fact that everything in Rich's story takes place because he says so.

I often wonder if the people who feel the need to fill each thread with those sorts of post do the same thing when discussing other media.

[King of Nowhere]

As for the "Dorukan vs Xykon" part, that figth was a bit of a stretch, but still good enough.
I think it could be comparable to a real world story where the hero get shot in the chest and fall over a cliff and get covered in a snow avalanche and the day after wakes up and survives: we know it's highly unlikely, but iif the bullet hit in the right place, and the snow ccushioned the fall, and then the cold staunched the blood, it would be possible enough to accept it in the story.

Anyway, the idea that dorukan was not prepared against energy drain is not strange at all. he did not know xykon has access to it, and he would require a clerical spell to protect, and xykon could have dispelled it. Nor do i find unlikely he cast spells that had no effect: we already know xykon wear a lot of protective items, maybe dorukan just tried a couple fire spells on him before realizing they had no effect, and then failed the ranged touch attack for a disintegrate. Or he cast a control undead and xykon made the saving throw. All this is ok.
What I find a bit annoying in that figth is that Xykon didn't start energy draining before. It's like in those cartoons or anime where the hero always wait the last moment to use his ultimate move, and always wins with that, and you wonder why wouldn't he use it before?

Also, the fact that dorukan did not escape after the first or second energy drain. he could have teleported away, find a cleric to cast restoration, and come bacck the next day mucch better prepared. But that, too, made sense: maybe he only prepared one teleport for the day, and used it to engage xykon. It's not like wizards get so many spells that they can prepare everything they want twice. In fact, I've never been good at using crazy prepared wizards, because I find that 90% of my prepared spells are for particular situations and would be useless in the current fight, and I run out immediately of my useful spells for the current figth, leaving me unable to cast anything useful. Like one who brings a chance of clothing for every possible climate to be prepared, then went to the pole and dropped in water and had to discard his current polar suit, only to find out he has no backup polar suit because he didn't have enough room in his backpack. But he got instead a swimsuit and plenty of sun lotion.

[Kaeso]

Actually, the Empowered Sunburst would deal 37d6 damage assuming Darth V's caster level counted as 25 or above.

Wasn't the whole point of that battle to show that V was still the weaker, despite his epic spells, because those epic spells were bound to his low level self?

[zimmerwald1915]

Wasn't the whole point of that battle to show that V was still the weaker, despite his epic spells, because those epic spells were bound to his low level self?
Not quite. The point of the battle (if you want to think of it in terms of proving points) was to show that V could and would not defeat Xykon by herself, no matter how strong she could possibly become, splices or not. The problem with assuming V's ECL, and thus caster level, wasn't boosted by the splices comes in when we look at the fiends' statement here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html). An Ancient Black Dragon would have a CR of 19, thus the lowest-ECL character that would gain no XP from defeating the ABD in question would be level 27. Sunburst's damage to undead is 1d6 per caster level, and caps at 25d6, which is then modified by Empower Spell to get 35d6 or 25d6*1.5, or however you want to rule Empower Spell works. For the purpose of this thread, which is to examine how Xykon could survive a fight, we can assume Sunburst was as strong as it could be, or in other words, that V was of caster level 25 or higher. Even assuming that, Xykon still survives if he makes his reflex save against the Sunburst, which he does.

The "problem" with the splices, when it came to V's defenses, was that while they advanced her caster level and gave her a bunch of spells to play with, they did not give her extra skill points or save bonuses to work with. So the Lightning Bolt traps and Xykon's big piece of masonry were able to affect V when they might not have affected a wizard of similar intrinsic - as opposed to artificial - level and prowess.

Energy Drain spam, of course, would have worked regardless.

[Winter]

What I find a bit annoying in that figth is that Xykon didn't start energy draining before. It's like in those cartoons or anime where the hero always wait the last moment to use his ultimate move, and always wins with that, and you wonder why wouldn't he use it before?

I do not see the problem here. It is an established trait of Xykon to play around, then to muck around (or some other word...uh... ending with "uck"), and then, when it's necessary, to get serious.
This is totally what he did here. He enjoyed the fight, played around half-assed, maybe let Dorukan burn away some of his most powerful spells - and then ended the thing with his Big Guns. This is totally following what we know of Xykon.


Also, the fact that dorukan did not escape after the first or second energy drain. he could have teleported away, find a cleric to cast restoration, and come bacck the next day mucch better prepared. But that, too, made sense:

Xykon played Dorukan. He made him wait and then act out of rage. That was Xykon's plan and it totally worked. He only had to wait two rounds during which Dorukan could notice "something was wrong" and "could not teleport anymore". Xykon set up his deck and played the cards very well.
Yes, it was a very simply strategy but it worked perfectly (and again is in line what we know about Xykon).

Plus the reasons you gave. Dorukan already had wasted one teleport to jump in and I doubt he expected an epic sorcerer. How rare are they? Very. Dorukan might have mistaken for Xykon being level 15 instead of 21+.


Like one who brings a chance of clothing for every possible climate to be prepared, then went to the pole and dropped in water and had to discard his current polar suit, only to find out he has no backup polar suit because he didn't have enough room in his backpack. But he got instead a swimsuit and plenty of sun lotion.

I think most (RPG) PCs do and get used to the point where they forget it's not "realistic" to do that. If you imagine visually how prepared your character is, it becomes, to me, rather obvious it's purely for OOC-reasons (you as a player are prepared, you are not level 1, but are playing RPGs for years (level ranges, settings, systems)... of course you are more clueful and prepared about those things than any character; and you do not have to be "realistic", something which characters in the story usually are).

[SaintRidley]

You forgot the quickened chain lightning.
Xykon's immune to that damage type.

[torugo]

I really dont understand why so many people insist to say that Dorukan wouldnt be prepared for energy drain. XYKON Was not the ONLY undead in that fight. He came with an army of undeads he raised. I very much doubt there wasnt other energy-draining undeads along with the zombies actually seen in the scenes. Hell...some energy-draining undeads looks exactly like zombies.

Xykon tells it himself he wanst going to enter Dorukan's lair because the mage was probably prepared for such an assault. Meaning we could expect Dorukan to be waiting for an undead attack any minute. He doesnt even need to have a cleric nearby, he just need to cast gate to bring an outsider with such power. And we know his dungeon had outsiders because the order found celia in it.

He was an epic mage. He adventured for years before stopping. Any other member his group could have told him about undeads and life draining and how to defend against it. As a mage, he had knowledge of life draining undeads because necromancy is one of the magic schools. He can call life draining undeads if he wants!

Now about the momments after gate, to tell me the spells used after gate wanst important is stupid. An epic mage can end a battle with 2 or 3 spells and you know it. After gate Xykon was busy with several celestials, giving plenty of time for Dorukan to defeat Xykon with some epic blasts of spells. Damn he could even keep casting gate until xykon had wasted all high level spells on celetials.



As for the "Dorukan vs Xykon" part, that figth was a bit of a stretch, but still good enough.
I think it could be comparable to a real world story where the hero get shot in the chest and fall over a cliff and get covered in a snow avalanche and the day after wakes up and survives: we know it's highly unlikely, but iif the bullet hit in the right place, and the snow ccushioned the fall, and then the cold staunched the blood, it would be possible enough to accept it in the story.

Anyway, the idea that dorukan was not prepared against energy drain is not strange at all. he did not know xykon has access to it, and he would require a clerical spell to protect, and xykon could have dispelled it. Nor do i find unlikely he cast spells that had no effect: we already know xykon wear a lot of protective items, maybe dorukan just tried a couple fire spells on him before realizing they had no effect, and then failed the ranged touch attack for a disintegrate. Or he cast a control undead and xykon made the saving throw. All this is ok.
What I find a bit annoying in that figth is that Xykon didn't start energy draining before. It's like in those cartoons or anime where the hero always wait the last moment to use his ultimate move, and always wins with that, and you wonder why wouldn't he use it before?

Also, the fact that dorukan did not escape after the first or second energy drain. he could have teleported away, find a cleric to cast restoration, and come bacck the next day mucch better prepared. But that, too, made sense: maybe he only prepared one teleport for the day, and used it to engage xykon. It's not like wizards get so many spells that they can prepare everything they want twice. In fact, I've never been good at using crazy prepared wizards, because I find that 90% of my prepared spells are for particular situations and would be useless in the current fight, and I run out immediately of my useful spells for the current figth, leaving me unable to cast anything useful. Like one who brings a chance of clothing for every possible climate to be prepared, then went to the pole and dropped in water and had to discard his current polar suit, only to find out he has no backup polar suit because he didn't have enough room in his backpack. But he got instead a swimsuit and plenty of sun lotion.

[King of Nowhere]

@ torugo: just because things COULD have gone in a certain way, it don't mean they MUST go that way. Yes, okay, Dorukan had enough resources he COULD have been prepared for energy drain. With all his money, he could have hired a 7th level cleric to do nothing but cast death ward on him at his request.
But that don't make it unreasonable that Dorukan would be unprepared against energy drain. It's a quite rare attack as fa as I know. most energy draining undeads are just melee fighters, so dorukan would fly out of their reach. for a rival wizard, energy drain would not be the strongest option, because it would still leave dorukan with most of his power intact and has no way of ending the figth immediately. And Xykon was a sorceror, with only 3 9th level known spells, and dorukan had no way of knowing which they were, and why would him sink a lot of resources just in case he took one spell that is not widely used?

Really, your reasoning sounds like "I could have taken chinese courses, I know china exist and their economy is strong and may become the world leading soon, I have a job that may require me to work abroad, so it would be ridiculous for me not to speack chinese".

As for the fact that an epic level mage could end a fight with a couple of spell, again there is a COULD there. If the target has good protective items and cool immunities (and we know xykon focused his build to ffight mages, so it would make sense for him to be better protected against magic that against weapons), then an epic mage could be very well be unable to do much harm.
I already offered you several examples of how dorukan could have cast spells that turned out ineffective. Why is it so ridiculous to assume that things went that way? Can dorukan know Xykon is fire immune without wasting a spell first? maybe he is even acid immune? And probably has a lot of buffs to his saving throws and touch ac, too.

It reminds me of a time in NWN 2 when my epic sorceror fought some vampire monks and was totally powerless against them, because they could make any saving throw required (I mean, I used 6 sunbursts to almost no effect) and all the spells I had that gave no saving throw dealt damage type they were immune to. I had to step down and let the party fighter handle it (he slaughtered them; they were monks, after all). And that same sorceror used to win every fight with a single spell.

[torugo]

An just to end my point:


round 1: teleport
round 2: gate
Those 2 spells we've seen dorukan do. So we end the shown part of the battle here.
round 3: Xykon is fighting celestials.
Dorukon: TIME STOP
Dorukon: Summon as many more mobs to fight Xykon as possible.
Time stop ends
round 4, 5 and 6: Xykon has a lot of mobs to take care of
Dorukon uses maximized Sunburst and empowered sunburst to end Xykon's life.

[torugo]

I disagree. I am only saying he would act under the things he knew to be truth. One thing he knew to be true is that there was an army of undeads in front of his house.

He should be prepared for undead fight. I agree he might not know much about lishes even cause Xykon is probably the only lish on Oots universe. But there was lots of undeads still. Being prepared with spells to destroy and protect against negative energies is only a logical choice in such situation. And I take it mages with lots of Intelligence tend to follow logic first.

I remember times when i played a mage. And when i went to a haunted house i was sure to be prepared against all kinds of undeads. And when I watch a skeleton flying on my direction with a crown on his head and magic sparkles on his hands, the same way a priest would use turn undead a mage would use spells to counter negative energy by logical thought.

Its just common sense. And so it turns out Xykon is not immune to sunburst, the logical spell to use in such situation. Were Xykon immune to that as well, I would think it is logical to assume Dorukan used spells innefective. But on that situation i just cant see a mage using any spells other than the best against undeads possible.

Heck...even V as darth V made better fight and Xykon had other members of team evil to help him. V went prepared to fight an undead. V probably dont know what are the full immunities of Xykon, but she kept the most logical spell possible against him, sunburst...and it works! I should expect no less for dorukan.




@ torugo: just because things COULD have gone in a certain way, it don't mean they MUST go that way. Yes, okay, Dorukan had enough resources he COULD have been prepared for energy drain. With all his money, he could have hired a 7th level cleric to do nothing but cast death ward on him at his request.
But that don't make it unreasonable that Dorukan would be unprepared against energy drain. It's a quite rare attack as fa as I know. most energy draining undeads are just melee fighters, so dorukan would fly out of their reach. for a rival wizard, energy drain would not be the strongest option, because it would still leave dorukan with most of his power intact and has no way of ending the figth immediately. And Xykon was a sorceror, with only 3 9th level known spells, and dorukan had no way of knowing which they were, and why would him sink a lot of resources just in case he took one spell that is not widely used?

Really, your reasoning sounds like "I could have taken chinese courses, I know china exist and their economy is strong and may become the world leading soon, I have a job that may require me to work abroad, so it would be ridiculous for me not to speack chinese".

As for the fact that an epic level mage could end a fight with a couple of spell, again there is a COULD there. If the target has good protective items and cool immunities (and we know xykon focused his build to ffight mages, so it would make sense for him to be better protected against magic that against weapons), then an epic mage could be very well be unable to do much harm.
I already offered you several examples of how dorukan could have cast spells that turned out ineffective. Why is it so ridiculous to assume that things went that way? Can dorukan know Xykon is fire immune without wasting a spell first? maybe he is even acid immune? And probably has a lot of buffs to his saving throws and touch ac, too.

It reminds me of a time in NWN 2 when my epic sorceror fought some vampire monks and was totally powerless against them, because they could make any saving throw required (I mean, I used 6 sunbursts to almost no effect) and all the spells I had that gave no saving throw dealt damage type they were immune to. I had to step down and let the party fighter handle it (he slaughtered them; they were monks, after all). And that same sorceror used to win every fight with a single spell.

[Winter]

All those words... but sadly, the comic proofs you wrong.

Very apparently, Dorukan did not prepare for those things, for whatever reason. He could have, but did not. If you want, assume Xykon dipelled his protections or that Dorukan was really too stupid to jump into that fight.
It's not changing the fact Dorukan lost in a very straight-up (and fair) caster vs caster battle.

[SoC175]

I really dont understand why so many people insist to say that Dorukan wouldnt be prepared for energy drain. XYKON Was not the ONLY undead in that fight.
I find it implausible that any epic level character would not be prepared for energy drain, no matter which class. Protection vs. energy drain and death effects is something an epic level character is dressing each morning together with his socks and undies.

It's not changing the fact Dorukan lost in a very straight-up (and fair) caster vs caster battle.If one caster is written as a moron because the story simply demand that he loses no matter how implausible it is

[Winter]

If one caster is written as a moron because the story simply demand that he loses no matter how implausible it is

As people tried to outline here, he was no moron and that they think the in-comic explanation is still good.

But I think this is the point where we simply disagree.

[torugo]

And nobody is saying he didnt. Its in the comics. Duh!!

I just said i felt that fight was horrible because made no sense to me, and still dont because all the arguments above. And that's why i think that fight was badly written. Fortunatelly Giant has other great fights in Oots and its a great webcomic so I keep reading it.


All those words... but sadly, the comic proofs you wrong.

Very apparently, Dorukan did not prepare for those things, for whatever reason. He could have, but did not. If you want, assume Xykon dipelled his protections or that Dorukan was really too stupid to jump into that fight.
It's not changing the fact Dorukan lost in a very straight-up (and fair) caster vs caster battle.

[Querzis]

Once again, you're just assuming Dorukan was even aware death ward existed and that he should spend a wish to cast him on himself. The army of undead was totally irrelevant to his fight against Xykon by the way, dont know why you keep bringing that up, he got rid of them with a simple fly spell.

Lets say instead of Energy drain, Xykon would have killed Dorukan with a meteor swarm spam. Would you right now be arguing that Dorukan should have buffed himself with protection against fire? Or you know lightning, that work too. Hell, why not bull strength, you never know when it could be usefull. Lets just get every buff in the world now shall we? Oh would you look at that, Xykon used superb dispelling. That was usefull.

And by the way, cloister so no he coudnt have just called for a level 9 cleric...not that I think he knew any level 9 cleric, from what we've seen Redcloak is the highest level cleric in the world right now. And I have no doubt theres a celestial out there who can cast Death ward. Which one? Do you have any idea how many knowledge:religion a character would need to have to know that?

Hell, if he had Wish prepared, heres what he should have wished: «I wish the gem containing the soul of Lirian, my lover, be summoned in my throne room». Duh.

[Winter]

I think it's about "Disliking the fight" and some felt pressure to give reasons for it to keep standing in such a discussion here.

I think there's no real reason how you can "proof" that Rich blundered the writing of that fight and that it is bad.

Instead of us exchanging arguments that are pointless because they will not lead somewhere (because they do not exist) it would be better to just state "I disliked it because we did not see Dorukan act as I think he should" which is countered by my "I liked that fight very much, it was very dramatic and the in-universe explanation is a good one and if you want, you can imagine Xykon dispelled whatever preparation Dorukan had" - and leave it at that.

Any exchange of reasons here never will go beyond that but confuse us that, in the end, it is just "I disliked it as how the story was told".
The in-universe explanation works on an objective level and I think there's simply no way to argue against that. Everything else is subjective perception of the story and I can understand if someone dislikes it but I do not share that point of view nor do I think it can be proven.

I mean... just imagine this: The "point" of that fight was how Xykon smashes Dorukan with a sledgehammer and Dorukans finely tuned watch (preparations and plans) was worth nothing. That's the point of the thing. So complaining that "plans should have mattered" when the point of that whole thing that no planning from Dorukan would or could have mattered is a bit... well, let me say "Wuh?"

[King of Nowhere]

I want to point out something that no one mentioned yet: lots of people are assuming that Xykon and dorukan were of similar levels, but that may be not true. We only know both of them were epic. It is possible that Xykon was 30 and dorukan 21, and in that case it would make perfect sense for X to win the fight.

Also, Xykon too knew he was going to fight an epic mage, and had one year to prepare. So who knows how much stuff he bought on ebay to counter dorukan's spells? the idea that dorukan spent several rounds zapping him without noticeable effect makes even more sense when considered that way.

In fact, we did not saw all the fight. It is perfectly possible that both opponents spent several rounds casting spells at each other that had no effect, because both were full of protective spells and stuff. It is possible that energy drain was the last thing Xykon tried because everything else failed before. It is, in fact, likely that Dorukan was prepared against dozens of possible attacks, and just left that one open. As V points out, it is difficult, even for us, to defend against every form of attack simultaneously (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0800.html). Dorukan did not come to the fight unprepared, he came prepared for everything except one 9th level spell that is seldom used and very likely would not be on his opponent's spell selection and very likely would not be a good choice to use too. Maybe that would make more sense to some of you.





Hell, if he had Wish prepared, heres what he should have wished: «I wish the gem containing the soul of Lirian, my lover, be summoned in my throne room». Duh.

That would have been the better choice. I never thought of it before. And if he had not wish prepared, prepare it tomorrow and cast. Really nice trick.

But I'm not sure if Xykon, being in possession of the gem, gets a saving throw against it. If he does, than it don't work.

[SoC175]

It is possible that energy drain was the last thing Xykon tried because everything else failed before. It is, in fact, likely that Dorukan was prepared against dozens of possible attacks, and just left that one open. As V points out, it is difficult, even for us, to defend against every form of attack simultaneously (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0800.html). Dorukan did not come to the fight unprepared, he came prepared for everything except one 9th level spell that is seldom used and very likely would not be on his opponent's spell selection and very likely would not be a good choice to use too. Maybe that would make more sense to some of you..It's not just "one 9th level" spell, it's one of the nastiest thing that harries D&D characters throughout their career and something that for an epic level character (not just a wizard, but also a fighter/rogue/ranger/...) supposed to be using at least 1,000,000gp worth of equipment (if he's only 21, some hundred thousand more for each level above that) to not be immune to is like forgetting to put on shoes

[zimmerwald1915]

It's not just "one 9th level" spell, it's one of the nastiest thing that harries D&D characters throughout their career and something that for an epic level character (not just a wizard, but also a fighter/rogue/ranger/...) supposed to be using at least 1,000,000gp worth of equipment (if he's only 21, some hundred thousand more for each level above that) to not be immune to is like forgetting to put on shoes
But casters in OOTS don't normally wear shoes.

*trollface*

[Dr.Epic]

between him and Darth V? I mean, the Empowered Sunburst alone did, according to RAW, 25d6 +50%, for a minimum of 62 (or more), and an average of about 105 (give or take 20). Even with all Xykon's HD, he has... D4s.

Nope. D12s. Undead. Plus we don't know for sure how many HD Xykon has. And the Giant frequently fudges fights for the plot.

[ti'esar]

But casters in OOTS don't normally wear shoes.

*trollface*

Oh yeah? How can we even tell?

[zimmerwald1915]

Oh yeah? How can we even tell?
I was making a joke, but if you want a serious answer you'll get a serious answer.

As of this last arc, we've seen what sandals, the least obtrusive article of footwear this side of stockings, look like in OOTS-style. We've also seen that neither Durkon, nor V, nor Z seems to be wearing them (I'd mention Malack, but he doesn't appear to have legs). We also know that Xykon, when he regenerates, points to his "feet!" and comments that they have just regrown. He hasn't had time to don shoes. In all his later appearances which shown his feet, such as when he is flying, his feet look the same.

[ti'esar]

I was making a joke, but if you want a serious answer you'll get a serious answer.

I was not asking for a serious answer - it was a joke about how OOTS often doesn't draw certain articles of clothing.

[Querzis]

It's not just "one 9th level" spell, it's one of the nastiest thing that harries D&D characters throughout their career and something that for an epic level character (not just a wizard, but also a fighter/rogue/ranger/...) supposed to be using at least 1,000,000gp worth of equipment (if he's only 21, some hundred thousand more for each level above that) to not be immune to is like forgetting to put on shoes

You keep saying that without actually bringing up any way he could have been immune to it without wasting a frigging wish on it. Not that it would make him immune as much as buy him one round before the dispell magic.

Also, honestly, level drain really aint such a big deal for fighters, rogue, barbarian or even rangers and pally. Its mostly a pain for spellcasters since they lose their strongest spells. Theres plenty of level 9 spells a lot more effective to bring non-spellcasters down. Draining two levels for a fighter is the equivalent of casting doom on him (the crappy level 1 spell) and hitting him for 10 damage. Less «the nastiest thing that harries D&D character» and more «kinda annoying».

[Kish]

You keep saying that without actually bringing up any way he could have been immune to it without wasting a frigging wish on it.

This would seem a less impressive objection if you didn't keep leaving out the word "Limited."

Also, Shapechange->turn into something immune to level drain, like an undead creature or a construct.

--Not that I have a problem with Dorukan's failure to act like Batman, quite the contrary.


Also, honestly, level drain really aint such a big deal for fighters, rogue, barbarian or even rangers and pally.
Is this paragraph relevant to Dorukan?

[OrzhvoPatriarch]

I think people are over-reaching the amount of knowledge characters have. As players, out meta-knowledge is almost godlike, we know the habits and tactics of every monster. We know the effects of each spell in minute, clinical detail. We can look at the character sheet and see every in and out of what that character can do. Dorukan cannot do these things.
Spoiled for Start of Darkness

At the start of the fight Xykon has the advantage of preknowldge. He has used the diary to understand his opponent, how to press his buttons, perhaps even some hints to his abilities. All Dorukan knows is that there is a lich outside of his castle with an army of low to mid-level minions. He doesn’t know Xykon is epic, and he doesn’t know his spell selection. From the perspective of a player, it makes perfect sense to get protection from negative energy. It’s a big threat that can have you go from high and mighty to low and dying fast. From the perspective of a character, perhaps not. Researching new spells is expensive, its time consuming, it’s boring. What are the odds of running into something that can energy drain on an effective level? How many evil sorcerers are there? Why waste my time every day doing that when I can instead enjoy the company of various lovely extra planar females? I am sure it will never come up, and I’m getting old anyway, not something to worry about.

Going back to Xykon’s advantage of the knowledge he gets in the dairy. Xykon drags out the reanimated corpse of Dorukan’s one true love, and then takes out a black gem with her soul in it. Dorukan is pissed, pissed that this being has taken the thing he loved most in the world from him. He teleports out and he open with the biggest, flashiest move, calling in a horde of angels to smite this impudent lich who has hurt him so. This pathetic sorcerer who has now foolishly at last reveled himself in plain sight and will now see what a true arcane master can do. It’s not the right tactical move. It’s not the smartest move. It IS the most visceral, imminent, satisfying action that can be taken. It’s what Xykon was hoping for.

Then there is the complaint that after Xykon starts his Energy Drain spam, Dorukan stops fighting back. Frist off, this is not true, we see him try a few spells that are simply not effective against Xykon. It is true that Xykon does seem to cast a few spells in a row without Dorukan responding, but this to me is explained away by three things. The first thing is that Energy drain is draining away Dorukan spells. The second is that the panels have close up to Xykon, so it’s possible that Dorukan casts spells, but because they are lower level they don’t hurt Xykon. The third thing is that we have an understanding of what the spell Energy Drain does on paper. What we don’t know, is what it feels like to go –though- it. You’re an old man getting part of his soul ripped out, his very life essences siphoned off. The magic that has been your longtime companion is failing you. You have to fight back with your most powerful spell! You have to fight back now! What spell that you have left allows you to do so most effectively? Maybe this one will work, yes let’s go wi-ENERGY DRAIN!

I think it is important to take a step back and remember that is that characters do not always do the correct, logical, most tactical option. Sometimes, they aren’t optimized. Sometimes, they make mistakes.

[ti'esar]

I think it is important to take a step back and remember that is that characters do not always do the correct, logical, most tactical option. Sometimes, they aren’t optimized. Sometimes, they make mistakes.

Sometimes?

[rgrekejin]

I think people are over-reacting the amount of knowledge characters have. As players, out meta-knowledge is almost godlike, we know the habits and tactics of every monster. We know the effects of each spell in minute, clinical detail. We can look at the character sheet and see every in and out of what that character can do. Dorukan cannot do these things.
Spoiled for Start of Darkness

At the start of the fight Xykon has the advantage of preknowldge. He has used the diary to understand his opponent, how to press his buttons, perhaps even some hints to his abilities. All Dorukan knows is that there is a lich outside of his castle with an army of low to mid-level minions. He doesn’t know Xykon is epic, and he doesn’t know his spell selection. From the perspective of a player, it makes perfect sense to get protection from negative energy. It’s a big threat that can have you go from high and mighty to low and dying fast. From the perspective of a character, perhaps not. Researching new spells is expensive, its time consuming, it’s boring. What are the odds of running into something that can energy drain on an effective level? How many evil sorcerers are their? Why waste my time every day doing that when I can instead enjoy the company of various lovely extra planar females? I am sure it will never come up, and I’m getting old anyway, not something to worry about.

Going back to Xykon’s advantage of the knowledge he gets in the dairy. Xykon drags out the reanimated corpse of Dorukan’s one true love, and then takes out a black gem with her soul in it. Dorukan is pissed, pissed that this being has taken the thing he loved most in the world from him. He teleports out and he open with the biggest, flashiest move, calling in a horde of angels to smite this impudent lich who has hurt him so. This pathetic sorcerer who has now foolishly at last reveled himself in plain sight and will now see what a true arcane master can do. It’s not the right tactical move. It’s not the smartest move. It IS the most visceral, imminent, satisfying action that can be taken. It’s what Xykon was hoping for.

Then there is the complaint that after Xykon starts his Energy Drain spam, Dorukan stops fighting back. Frist off, this is not true, we see him try a few spells that are simply not effective against Xykon. It is true that Xykon does seem to cast a few spells in a row without Dorukan responding, but this to me is explained away by three things. The first thing is that Energy drain is draining away Dorukan spells. The second is that the panels have close up to Xykon, so it’s possible that Dorukan casts spells, but because they are lower level they don’t hurt Xykon. The third thing is that we have an understanding of what the spell Energy Drain does on paper. What we don’t know, is what it feels like to go –though- it. You’re an old man getting part of his soul ripped out, his very life essences siphoned off. The magic that has been your longtime companion is failing you. You have to fight back with your most powerful spell! You have to fight back now! What spell that you have left allows you to do so most effectively? Maybe this one will work, yes let’s go wi-ENERGY DRAIN!

I think it is important to take a step back and remember that is that characters do not always do the correct, logical, most tactical option. Sometimes, they aren’t optimized. Sometimes, they make mistakes.

I have nothing to add. Excellently said, sir.

[Snails]

Once again, you're just assuming Dorukan was even aware death ward existed and that he should spend a wish to cast him on himself. The army of undead was totally irrelevant to his fight against Xykon by the way, dont know why you keep bringing that up, he got rid of them with a simple fly spell.

That is a very weak argument. There are numerous kinds of undead that can fly. And when you are facing a high-level sorceror it is always possible he has cast or will cast fly on many friends.

[ericgrau]

Besides it being likely that Xykon passed his first save, he's probably level 26-30 which gives him more hp. To cast maximize energy drain and epic spells he needs 4 epic feats making him at least level 26.

Level 26 is 175.5 hp. On top of that comes a 24 hour maximized false life (20 hp) he probably has up, or other magic items or temp hp or resistances. He has nothing better to do in his free time than craft protective magic items and cast buffs.

He took (based on average damage) 66+19+35+21=141. That leaves room to spare even before the buffs.

[Querzis]

This would seem a less impressive objection if you didn't keep leaving out the word "Limited."

Didnt bother you or anyone else for two pages, why does it now?


Also, Shapechange->turn into something immune to level drain, like an undead creature or a construct.

Hes a wizard. Except that he had conjuration, we dont know his schools so I'd stick with generalist spells. Beside, that actually strike me as worse then Death wards since it will be obvious from the start so Xykon will just dispel it at the very start of the fight and wont even waste a single energy drain on it.


Is this paragraph relevant to Dorukan?

Not really no, why? Was your intervention on last page really relevant to the discussion? I dont mind getting sidetracked or nitpicking, I do it all the time but being called out on it by someone who keeps doing just that is kinda annoying.


That is a very weak argument. There are numerous kinds of undead that can fly. And when you are facing a high-level sorceror it is always possible he has cast or will cast fly on many friends.

Firstly, Dorukan could see and hear Xykon and his army, he'd know if there were flying undeads in there. And casting fly on zombie or ghouls who would get wasted at the first aoe spell would be a total waste of time. If anything, Durokan was most likely more worried about the goblin cleric who was obviously Xykon second-in-command joining the fight then very low-level undead.

But hey, for the most part, patriarch said it better then I could anyway.

[torugo]

Dont know why he would use wish. He can summon other creatures to use priest spells on him. But anyway you are saying he solves the undead army problem with flight. You are wrong. Let me show you why by watchin it by Dorukon's point of view.

He is in his fortress for somedays watching what happens outside with divinations. By now he knows there is an army of goblins and undeads ouside. The one calling the shots is a undead wearing a robe and a goblin wearing a sacred symbol in his neck.

Dorukan decides not to go outside and already made his fortress full of magical traps and summoned monsters to defend it against the invaders. He goes sleep the night before and chooses his spells.

Thats an important factor...he doesnt choose the spells before going out...he chooses to fight inside the fortress. So flight is not a solution against an undead army. Remember Xykon didnt use flight to fight the order on dorukan's palace. He was indoor and who knows how high is the ceiling. TO count with flight in an indoor enviroment as the way to prevent undeads to attack is stupid.

So, by logic, he must have chosen spells fit to fight indoor against an army and to fight the leader of the army, who was an undead wearing a robe and crown, as well as his goblin lacay priest if they ever get that far in the dungeon.






Once again, you're just assuming Dorukan was even aware death ward existed and that he should spend a wish to cast him on himself. The army of undead was totally irrelevant to his fight against Xykon by the way, dont know why you keep bringing that up, he got rid of them with a simple fly spell.

Lets say instead of Energy drain, Xykon would have killed Dorukan with a meteor swarm spam. Would you right now be arguing that Dorukan should have buffed himself with protection against fire? Or you know lightning, that work too. Hell, why not bull strength, you never know when it could be usefull. Lets just get every buff in the world now shall we? Oh would you look at that, Xykon used superb dispelling. That was usefull.

And by the way, cloister so no he coudnt have just called for a level 9 cleric...not that I think he knew any level 9 cleric, from what we've seen Redcloak is the highest level cleric in the world right now. And I have no doubt theres a celestial out there who can cast Death ward. Which one? Do you have any idea how many knowledge:religion a character would need to have to know that?

Hell, if he had Wish prepared, heres what he should have wished: «I wish the gem containing the soul of Lirian, my lover, be summoned in my throne room». Duh.

[Kish]

Didnt bother you or anyone else for two pages, why does it now?

Remarkable. "You didn't point that out earlier, so you can't point it out." Seriously?


Not really no, why? Was your intervention on last page really relevant to the discussion? I dont mind getting sidetracked or nitpicking, I do it all the time but being called out on it by someone who keeps doing just that is kinda annoying.

If I was talking to anyone else, I wouldn't have, but considering you complained about my "intervention" at the time, I took it you thought this thread should only be about Dorukan.

Dorukan presumably didn't know Xykon was actually epic. There was, for the entirety of Start of Darkness and the online comic up until right before the end of War and XPs, no indication that Xykon was epic, after all (and he may, accordingly, not have been). Accordingly, if--as you assert--he avoided buffs on the assumption that Xykon would just Superb Dispelling them, he was 1) overthinking in the same way that led to Redcloak not using fire against Lirian's treants, and 2) leaving himself open to a display of less power (Energy Drain spam) because of preparing for a display of a great deal more power (an epic-level spell which there is no indication Xykon had at the time).

[zimmerwald1915]

Remarkable. "You didn't point that out earlier, so you can't point it out." Seriously?
If this discussion were taking place according to certain competitive debate rules, that would indeed be a valid card to play. Fortunately, or unfortunately as the case may be, this is not a debate tournament, but is the Internet.

[Kish]

I don't know what debate rules state that if you let someone's error slip by once, you are forbidden from ever pointing it out in the future however many times that person repeats it. Sounds...profoundly goofy.

[zimmerwald1915]

I don't know what debate rules state that if you let someone's error slip by once, you are forbidden from ever pointing it out in the future however many times that person repeats it. Sounds...profoundly goofy.
It is. I believe the rule exists because it helps the moderator assign points the debaters to determine their scores.

[/derail]

[Querzis]

Dont know why he would use wish. He can summon other creatures to use priest spells on him. But anyway you are saying he solves the undead army problem with flight. You are wrong. Let me show you why by watchin it by Dorukon's point of view.

He is in his fortress for somedays watching what happens outside with divinations. By now he knows there is an army of goblins and undeads ouside. The one calling the shots is a undead wearing a robe and a goblin wearing a sacred symbol in his neck.

Dorukan decides not to go outside and already made his fortress full of magical traps and summoned monsters to defend it against the invaders. He goes sleep the night before and chooses his spells.

Thats an important factor...he doesnt choose the spells before going out...he chooses to fight inside the fortress. So flight is not a solution against an undead army. Remember Xykon didnt use flight to fight the order on dorukan's palace. He was indoor and who knows how high is the ceiling. TO count with flight in an indoor enviroment as the way to prevent undeads to attack is stupid.

So, by logic, he must have chosen spells fit to fight indoor against an army and to fight the leader of the army, who was an undead wearing a robe and crown, as well as his goblin lacay priest if they ever get that far in the dungeon.



As patriarch pointed out, once again, you're using metagaming. It would take some pretty high knowledge:religion to actually know which angels can cast death wards and theres no reason why a wizard would have some of that. You do make a good point that until Xykon baited him out, Dorukan was planning to fight indoor but honestly, that only reinforce my thought that he had absolutely nothing to fear about the army of undeads. Once again, they are zombies and ghouls. He doesnt need to do anything specific about them when litterally any traps by him that they activate will kill them, same thing for any aoe spell.


Remarkable. "You didn't point that out earlier, so you can't point it out." Seriously?

Not so much you cant point it out now that I find it kinda pointless at this point in the debate. I mean we already got past that one page ago, what do you even want me to say about it now? You're right, he could use limited wish, what now?


If I was talking to anyone else, I wouldn't have, but considering you complained about my "intervention" at the time, I took it you thought this thread should only be about Dorukan.

In case you havent noticed, this thread wasnt even about Dorukan at all at the start. I just consider myself lucky that we got sidetracked on something that is still about the comic, if we had gotten sidetracked about the code geass thing a mod would have had to move this thread at this point.


Dorukan presumably didn't know Xykon was actually epic. There was, for the entirety of Start of Darkness and the online comic up until right before the end of War and XPs, no indication that Xykon was epic, after all (and he may, accordingly, not have been). Accordingly, if--as you assert--he avoided buffs on the assumption that Xykon would just Superb Dispelling them, he was 1) overthinking in the same way that led to Redcloak not using fire against Lirian's treants, and 2) leaving himself open to a display of less power (Energy Drain spam) because of preparing for a display of a great deal more power (an epic-level spell which there is no indication Xykon had at the time).

I'm not saying he avoided to buff himself because Xykon had superb dispelling, I'm saying it woudnt have mattered at all if he did since Xykon had superb dispelling. As Winter said the whole point of the fight is that Xykon sledgehammer (pure power) could beat a tuned watch (plans and preparations) anyday so I find it kinda silly how everyone keep getting annoyed by the fact that Durokan didnt have around 30 buffs on him when we know for a fact that such a tactic would not have mattered against Xykon superb dispelling, he would have smashed Durokan just as easely.

Beside, Durokan teleported out as soon as Xykon started taunting him so he obviously didnt have any other buffs at that point then the ones he casted on him each morning (good old overland flight). But yes, all he knew about Xykon level is that he had used soul bind on Lirian which would make him at least level 18.

[Jaros]

I don't know what debate rules state that if you let someone's error slip by once, you are forbidden from ever pointing it out in the future however many times that person repeats it. Sounds...profoundly goofy.

I'd assume this is because debate tournaments (or the scoring of, at least) are more about the participants debating skills, rather than the actual issues.

[Kish]

Not so much you cant point it out now that I find it kinda pointless at this point in the debate. I mean we already got past that one page ago, what do you even want me to say about it now? You're right, he could use limited wish, what now?

...So he would not have needed to "waste a frigging wish" on Death Ward.

So the thing you were saying is wrong.

(Nor is the difference between "spend 5000 XP and a ninth level spell slot" and "spend 300 XP and a seventh level spell slot" a meaningless semantic difference, either.)


I'm not saying he avoided to buff himself because Xykon had superb dispelling, I'm saying it woudnt have mattered at all if he did since Xykon had superb dispelling.

Again, we don't know that. We know Xykon had Superb Dispelling many hundreds of strips later. We don't know that Xykon was even epic when he killed Dorukan.


As Winter said the whole point of the fight is that Xykon sledgehammer (pure power) could beat a tuned watch (plans and preparations) anyday

If that was the sole point of the fight, then it's not very well done*. The only indication I can see that Dorukan was particularly planned is that "He's a wizard, and wizards are Batman!" He spammed spells just like Xykon did, he just wasn't as good at it.


Beside, Durokan teleported out as soon as Xykon started taunting him so he obviously didnt have any other buffs at that point then the ones he casted on him each morning (good old overland flight).

So...no preparation, then?

*This is not meant to be critical of Rich because I don't believe that was the sole point of the fight. Aside from letting Xykon state his philosophy and demonstrate that "cast the same frigging spell until you die" is a viable strategy as long as you have a frigging spell your enemy is vulnerable to**, it showed that Dorukan, like Vaarsuvius, and for that matter like Xavion, was cocky about being a wizard and thought he was inherently superior to sorcerers. He didn't say anything about preparation, even; he just said that Xykon couldn't possibly match him because he had been born with his magic rather than working for it.

**So, not against Soon, later.

[OrzhvoPatriarch]

*This is not meant to be critical of Rich because I don't believe that was the sole point of the fight. Aside from letting Xykon state his philosophy and demonstrate that "cast the same frigging spell until you die" is a viable strategy as long as you have a frigging spell your enemy is vulnerable to**, it showed that Dorukan, like Vaarsuvius, and for that matter like Xavion, was cocky about being a wizard and thought he was inherently superior to sorcerers. He didn't say anything about preparation, even; he just said that Xykon couldn't possibly match him because he had been born with his magic rather than working for it.


And that right there is one of my main points. Not that Dorukan would be unable to prepare to fight Xykon, but that he didn't for a number of reasons. Being drawn into a fight by rage, cockily thinking that as a wizard, one who saved the world no less, there is no way a sorceror could have defeated him, and perhaps simply not thinking that spending the time to research a spell to protect vs energy drain, or the needed resources to cast limited wish if he knew it, was worth the pay off.

So, if both of you agree with those points, I don't think the argument is needed.

[rgrekejin]

He didn't say anything about preparation, even; he just said that Xykon couldn't possibly match him because he had been born with his magic rather than working for it.

I don't disagree with your conclusion, but this one point is not factually accurate. After his Prismatic Spray fails (due to artwork constraints) Dorukan says, and I quote "It doesn't matter. I've been preparing for this fight since you arrived on my doorstep." I suppose he doesn't explicitly state that he thinks his degree of preparation is going to be helpful in defeating Xykon, but I think it's pretty heavily implied. It's also unclear exactly how much Dorukan was even able to prepare, as Xykon may have intentionally avoided giving Dorukan a chance to gauge his strength and spell load-out.

[SoC175]

so I find it kinda silly how everyone keep getting annoyed by the fact that Durokan didnt have around 30 buffs on him when we know for a fact that such a tactic would not have mattered against Xykon superb dispelling, he would have smashed Durokan just as easely. Actually it would have mattered a lot, since assuming an app. equal level, a lot of his buffs would have withstood superb dispelling or required multiple castings.


Beside, Durokan teleported out as soon as Xykon started taunting him so he obviously didnt have any other buffs at that point then the ones he casted on him each morning.Which for an epic level wizard should fill the first two pages of his character sheet.

You keep saying that without actually bringing up any way he could have been immune to it without wasting a frigging wish on it. Not that it would make him immune as much as buy him one round before the dispell magic. Ring of Death Ward. At 60,000gp it's something an epic level character pays with the lose change he finds in his couch.

Also, honestly, level drain really aint such a big deal for fighters, rogue, barbarian or even rangers and pally. Its mostly a pain for spellcasters since they lose their strongest spells. Theres plenty of level 9 spells a lot more effective to bring non-spellcasters down. Draining two levels for a fighter is the equivalent of casting doom on him (the crappy level 1 spell) and hitting him for 10 damage. Less «the nastiest thing that harries D&D character» and more «kinda annoying».It's not just energy drain, it's also ability drain and death effects (nat 1 happens) all in one package

[Kish]

I don't disagree with your conclusion, but this one point is not factually accurate. After his Prismatic Spray fails (due to artwork constraints) Dorukan says, and I quote "It doesn't matter. I've been preparing for this fight since you arrived on my doorstep."

I stand corrected. I was only thinking of what he said in his "why you can't possibly match me" rant, right before Xykon smashed him.

...Never mind Energy Drain, if he had that much preparation, he really should have tested Prismatic Spray in a black-and-white environment.

[King of Nowhere]

I really can'tt understand how some people can't conceive that even a powerful wizard like dorukan could make one single mistake and forget to take into account one single spell in his defence preparation.

I mean, I'm a professional chessplayer, and I can assure you, professional chessplayers, even greatmasters, make stupid mistakes all the time. I personally spent ten minutes analyzing a move, looking at all the possible implications 5 moves later, and then moved and just as I moved saw an intermediate after 2 moves that would completely screw my plans and I should have been able to see in seconds. That happened several times. I'm pretty strong, but it also happens to players far stronger than me. Also, a lot of important matches were won over who was the first to lose their patience.

And consider that chessplayers have several minutes to think for every move, and a calm environment, while a D&D character is expected to make decisions in the spare part of 6 seconds while fighting for his life.

So, all arguments "Dorukan, as an epic wizard, should NOT have made any mistake" are absolute rubbish. As well as "Dorukan is not believable because he made a mistake", "epic characters should be prepared against everything and can't really do anything wrong".
Dorukan was, first of all, human. He made a mistake, because that's what humans do. He did it under exceptional stress, because those circumstances are when we tend to blunder the most. I really don't see that as constituting bad storytelling.

[Winter]

* [...] Aside from letting Xykon state his philosophy and demonstrate that "cast the same frigging spell until you die" is a viable strategy as long as you have a frigging spell your enemy is vulnerable to**, it showed that Dorukan, like Vaarsuvius, and for that matter like Xavion, was cocky about being a wizard and thought he was inherently superior to sorcerers. He didn't say anything about preparation, even; he just said that Xykon couldn't possibly match him because he had been born with his magic rather than working for it.

**So, not against Soon, later.

Good to see we agree. That is what Xykon summed up in this "Sledgehammer vs. Finely Tuned Watch Metaphor". That is exactly what that fight was about.

---

As for the topic: If Dorukan had prepared vs. Energy Drain, Xykon would just have thrown some other spell at him until he died. Be it Meteor Swarm, Fireball, Lightning Bolt or Magic Missiles.
Xykon's reason to win was it did not matter what Dorukan prepared for as long as one single spell (any!) that is repeated over and over could do the trick.

I very much doubt Dorukan was immune to anything Xykon could possibly ditch out. With Meteor Swarm, Lightning Bolt, Magic Missile and Finger of Death/Energy Drain we already have Fire, Electricity, Death Effects, Energy and Bludgeoning Damage he has to be immune against.
Cloudkill also does Con damage (via Poison, not some negative energy effect). And it seems Xykon can cast Symbol of Pain as a standard action, something that should be enough to make Dorukan annoyed enough to make other misaktes.
Please do not try to claim "Dorukan was stupid until none of those could hurt him", that's getting a tad unbelievable.

[factotum]

So, all arguments "Dorukan, as an epic wizard, should NOT have made any mistake" are absolute rubbish. As well as "Dorukan is not believable because he made a mistake", "epic characters should be prepared against everything and can't really do anything wrong".
Dorukan was, first of all, human. He made a mistake, because that's what humans do. He did it under exceptional stress, because those circumstances are when we tend to blunder the most. I really don't see that as constituting bad storytelling.

Well said. "No plan survives the first contact with the enemy", after all, and Dorukan simply didn't plan well for this fight; he didn't seem to believe that a simple sorcerer could ever defeat him. Fyron had the same problem, only in his case he actually won the fight until Xykon "cheated" by using physical rather than magical means to kill him. (In fact, he could easily have done the same thing against Dorukan--Dorukan was an old, old man and would have severely subpar physical attribute scores, whereas Xykon left all that behind with his humanity).

[Kittenwolf]

It's very much an "Everybody knows" thing that Wizards are more powerful than Sorcerers, both in and out of character. It's no surprise whatsoever that some of them will think they are always more powerful even when they don't actually do anything to deserve it (like tackle a Sorcerer head on in a spell spam duel).

Also, for those talking about "But he didn't know about Superb Dispelling" and "Some of his spells would have taken multiple casts to get rid of", it's a solid bet that any mage capable of casting 9th level spells is going to have Mordenkeinan's Disjunction at his disposal, which cannot in any way be protected against (other than not being there) or rebounded.

It can at times turn into a double-bluff of "If I don't put up all my protections he won't disjunct me and kill my magic items".
I was GMing a game where a party knew they were going up against a Spellthief with access to Disjunction (Gestalt game) and deliberately went into the fight with no buffs and no magic items.

"Aww, look at all the pretty spells, pity about the magic items" *Disjunction* certainly fits with Xykon's magic style :)

[Mr. Pants]

He probably would have won if he still had Haerta Bloodsoak with him :smallfrown:

[Winter]

It's very much an "Everybody knows" thing that Wizards are more powerful than Sorcerers,

Well, I do not know that.

I only know that Sorcs got cheated out of their bonus-feats, something that does not make up for their different casting (which is already made up by the much smaller choice of spells).

[rgrekejin]

He probably would have won if he still had Haerta Bloodsoak with him :smallfrown:

Possibly, but that's kind of the point. Why is it that V didn't have Haerta with her? Because she blew her will save against losing her. V could have had Thor himself soulspliced to her, it still doesn't matter if she can't make the will save to keep him. That was Xykon's point when he talked about, no matter how powerful the other casters are, they're still shackled to V's lame midlevel ass. V didn't have Haerta with her due to her own personal weakness.

[theinsulabot]

That would explain why we get stuff like the blow by blow of the Miko fight happening exactly by rules, the consistency of rules being applied, the touches such as the petrifying beam of the prismatic beam cast at Qarr's friend being larger prior to said friends petrification, and all the other instances of Burlew upholding the rules just fine.

Or, you know, we can pretend that all that effort doesn't exist. That works too.

not that its really that important, but on the miko thing, rich actually rolled a rare natural one on in his knowledge "DnD mechanics" there in a fashion that was significant enough that it basically handed miko a fight she should have lost, because he had her take out belkar by continually CCing him with stunning fist, which he had incorectly identified as having a will save, when its in fact a fort save. he only needed to make one of like, 3 of his con rolls to get off his enrage and add several more rounds of HP and improved rolls and if he stays on his feet miko loses pretty hard.


(and yes, there is actually a bonus feat you can take which would convert stunning fist to a will save, but rich doesn't say anything about miko having randomly it and was just talking about how stunning fist is a great move against someone like belkar because his will save is crap)