Recurring villains for my party

[Jajama]

Hey all,

I'm in the process of coming up with some recurring villains for a party I'm DMing (running a 7th-9th level campaign), and they have an even mix of characters. A fighter, rogue, wizard, and cleric, all of whom are doing fairly generalist builds since I like to switch things up from time to time (so, hardly any meaningful specialization). Story concerns and flavor are a factor for this game, so there's no powergaming or min/maxing going on.

However, I'm thinking I may want to heat things up a little on that front, so I plan on introducing a set of three recurring villains who keep trying to team up (and who all lead lower level mooks) to take down my party. So, I'd like some input as to whether or not the following would be decent choices.

One of them is going to be a straight fighter build, a fencer (so, rapier, fencing feats, etc) and another one I'm thinking of doing a Monk2/Fighter+, who's TWFing a longsword (didn't want to spend a feat on Bastard Sword) and brass knuckles that've been house-ruled to increase unarmed damage by one step (and able to be enchanted). But for the third, the leader, I was thinking of doing a straight Halberdier, as per this link:

http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Halberdier_%283.5e_Class%29

Anyone think these choices might be good ideas? Especially for the leader, is that a viable class option? What are some glaring weaknesses that need to be overcome, or what feats are absolute must-haves? I'm putting in casters as needed for each encounter, so hopefully things relating to magic can be straight up avoided, if possible.

Thanks!

[Flickerdart]

For the villains to be recurring, they need to be able to escape being killed. None of those guys have that option, meaning that you'll have to use some contrived whatsit every single time they have to get away.

[Jajama]

Well, that's really not an issue; that sort of thing can be done any number of ways that are not just a straight up deus ex machina. I'm really not interested in that discussion, just whether or not any of those three options can be made to be a good challenge for your typical adventuring party.

If it'll help at all, part of the campaign revolves around the fact that the adventurers ticked off a local evil empire, and these three just happen to be a part of a military detachment that are hunting them down.

[Righteous Doggy]

Well, its a group of 3 fighters versus a wizard and a cleric and 2 other guys. On their own? i don't think so. they could get shut down fast and hard.

[Jajama]

Well, its a group of 3 fighters versus a wizard and a cleric and 2 other guys. On their own? i don't think so. they could get shut down fast and hard.

On their own, yes, I'd agree with you, but keep in mind the following:
-Levels can probably be adjusted to help compensate
-They'll have lower-level mooks at their disposal, some of whom can probably cast spells
-The group will most likely take advantage of different kinds of tactics that could make things difficult. Like, the cleric and wizard like to stay back and buff and fling spells; why not tailor the monk/fighter to take advantage of mobility and harrass them? Have some low-level mooks attack the fighter while the halberdier tries to control the battlefield? The players aren't as versed in tactics as they could be, I'll admit, but shouldn't there be a way to help the villains deal some damage to the party?

I guess the root of the issue is whether or not the halberdier would be a good class option, or if a monk2/fighter+ is a good choice.

[OracleofSilence]

Look, it is fairly simple. You will likely find mundanes getting brutalized by full caster PC's. Either by fighting fighter with fire, or just by repeated "no, you" style responses. Please, i beseech of thee. USE MARTIAL ADEPTS. No really. Either that, or pull out some gishes. But a mundane, or... seriously? a mundane with monk? they will just embarrass themselves, and more importantly, will likely die within a round or two. So yeah. pulling out the Deus Ex Machina is about all they could manage to avoid really getting to know their Underworld of choice.

[Namfuak]

On their own, yes, I'd agree with you, but keep in mind the following:
-Levels can probably be adjusted to help compensate
-They'll have lower-level mooks at their disposal, some of whom can probably cast spells
-The group will most likely take advantage of different kinds of tactics that could make things difficult. Like, the cleric and wizard like to stay back and buff and fling spells; why not tailor the monk/fighter to take advantage of mobility and harrass them? Have some low-level mooks attack the fighter while the halberdier tries to control the battlefield? The players aren't as versed in tactics as they could be, I'll admit, but shouldn't there be a way to help the villains deal some damage to the party?

I guess the root of the issue is whether or not the halberdier would be a good class option, or if a monk2/fighter+ is a good choice.

The problem with your thoughts about tactics here is that in response to any melee person even looking the wrong way at the wizard, he is going to cast fly on himself and get out of range of melee. The cleric will likely be wearing heavy armor and have a few buffs on himself anyway, so he can deal with playing keep-away with a few melee. Granted, you can counter this - they could have a few mooks who have bows, or a wizard of their own that casts fly on one or two, but at that point you are still leaving a lot to chance. If you go the second route, guess who target numero uno is for the PCs? Hint: it isn't any of the BBEGs. If you have a bunch of guys with bows around the BBEGs, the wizard will start preparing protection from arrows, and the cleric will start summoning monsters in the back ranks to harry the archers. None of this even considers how these full-melee mundane BBEGs plan to get away - do they have an invisible pocket illusionist who just happens to come out at the last second to give them room to escape? Are they going to throw down some smoke-bomb, no save? Do you plan on them just full-on running?

I would probably recommend that you drop the monk/fighter, and go with a sorcerer or bard instead. It will reduce your bookkeeping in comparison to making a wizard (since you just cast as you want from a set list, rather than having to prepare spells all the time), and he can easily keep the wizard busy while the rest of the party is dealing with your mundane enemies.

On another note - that halberdier class looks pretty cool, at least for an NPC (I wouldn't want to be restricted to one weapon as a PC).

[Jajama]

The problem with your thoughts about tactics here is that in response to any melee person even looking the wrong way at the wizard, he is going to cast fly on himself and get out of range of melee. The cleric will likely be wearing heavy armor and have a few buffs on himself anyway, so he can deal with playing keep-away with a few melee. Granted, you can counter this - they could have a few mooks who have bows, or a wizard of their own that casts fly on one or two, but at that point you are still leaving a lot to chance. If you go the second route, guess who target numero uno is for the PCs? Hint: it isn't any of the BBEGs. If you have a bunch of guys with bows around the BBEGs, the wizard will start preparing protection from arrows, and the cleric will start summoning monsters in the back ranks to harry the archers. None of this even considers how these full-melee mundane BBEGs plan to get away - do they have an invisible pocket illusionist who just happens to come out at the last second to give them room to escape? Are they going to throw down some smoke-bomb, no save? Do you plan on them just full-on running?

I would probably recommend that you drop the monk/fighter, and go with a sorcerer or bard instead. It will reduce your bookkeeping in comparison to making a wizard (since you just cast as you want from a set list, rather than having to prepare spells all the time), and he can easily keep the wizard busy while the rest of the party is dealing with your mundane enemies.

On another note - that halberdier class looks pretty cool, at least for an NPC (I wouldn't want to be restricted to one weapon as a PC).


Ha, thanks, your response has probably been the most helpful so far. We've been running a very story-oriented campaign, so we've more or less been ignoring the "linear fighters/quadratic wizards" exploits that a lot of gamers seem to love to take advantage of. I'm pretty sure that for a lot of campaigns this wouldn't fly, but oh well.

Upon thinking about it more, maybe keeping the halberdier but switching out the other two for a rogue/assassin (maybe with a dip or two in fighter?) build and a sorcerer (mostly blaster, I'll leave buffs to the mooks) would be better options?

[JonRG]

The PF book I have here has a sidebar for the "Villain's Escape Kit," and everything in it is a spell. Which seems kind of spot on much, as it pains me to say. (It's OGC, so I'll post it here.)



Airborne Escape: Air walk, elemental body, feather fall, gaseous form, levitate, overland flight, spider climb, wind walk

Barriers: Acid fog, animate plants, antilife shell, blade barrier, black tentacles, cloudkill, entangle, fog cloud, incendiary cloud, interposing hand, magic circle, minor creation, obscuring mist, plant growth, prismatic wall, spike growth, spike stones, solid fog, stinking cloud, storm of vengeance, wall, web, wind wall

Hindrances: Dimensional lock, hold person, hold portal, hypnotic pattern, power word blind

Instant Egress: Blink, dimension door, ethereal jaunt, etherealness, phase door, teleport, transport via plants, tree stride, word of recall

Illusory Escape: Hallucinatory terrain, illusory wall, invisibility, minor image, mirror image, mislead, persistent image, programmed image, project image, silent image, simulacrum

Rapid Retreat: Expeditious retreat, haste, longstrider, mount, phantom steed, time stop

You could switch the rogue for a melee-focused bard. Would help bolster the fighter and the sorcerer too if he uses spells with attack rolls (I think).

[Saito Takuji]

or just give the bad guys wonderous items to counter the lack of spells... dosen't matter about times per day or anything like that because should only be the one encounter they need to use them

[Jajama]

The PF book I have here has a sidebar for the "Villain's Escape Kit," and everything in it is a spell. Which seems kind of spot on much, as it pains me to say. (It's OGC, so I'll post it here.)



You could switch the rogue for a melee-focused bard. Would help bolster the fighter and the sorcerer too if he uses spells with attack rolls (I think).


Hmm...I've never considered a melee focused bard, although it might be worth a shot to see if I can't construct a decent character with it. I'm a little more inclined to go with the assassin if only for flavor, but how would one go about making a more martial bard?

I do like Saito's idea of giving the villains the items they need, which was probably in my mind all along; it's just a question of choosing which ones. Given the story so far, it shouldn't be hard to load them with a few choice ones and have it make sense in context.

It does seem unfair that 3.5E rules tend to favor spellcasters more, doesn't it? Whatever happened to the simple joys of sword-and-boarding?

[JonRG]

There's a feat in Frostburn called Snowflake Wardance which allows the bard to spend bardic music rounds and add Cha to attack rolls with any slashing melee weapon.

Others have built/explained the archetype better, and searching Google/the forums for Melee Bard or Bardblade (which is a Bard 4/Warblade X build that gets some pretty sweet moves) should be able to answer all your questions.

[Z3ro]

And as far as recurring villians escaping, remember that villians can be resurrected as easily as PCs. In my campaigns players have learned to go to great lengths to prevent recurring villians from being raised, otherwise they will see them again later.

[Water_Bear]

Personally, I like Spontaneous or pseudo-spontaneous* Arcane Casters for villains. They have a lot of options and there isn't a whole lot of book-keeping related to them. With a little foresight, they can avoid all the common "LOL I killed the BBEG in one round!" shenanigans without DM Fiat or Fudging.

But if you insist on using Melee characters, do at least give them some spell-casting ability. Even if only one in three is a full-caster, they really need some ability to avoid player I-Win Buttons**.

Here are my suggestions for a 3-person BBEG Melee team;

-A Paladin of Tyranny Sword of the Arcane Order with a 40+ point buy Battle Blessing and some ACFs can actually fight on an even level with most parties before 10th level.
-A Cleric is actually a better fighter than a Fighter, and their Buffs can be subtle enough that it might take a while for players to notice they are actually a spell-caster.
-Warmage is a Tier 3 Full-caster, and with Versatile Spellcaster gets access to their best spells extremely quickly. Plus they are very stabby, and you can have them act like a typical fighter until they need to bust out the spells.

Other than that, pile templates on everyone, spell-caster or muggle. Anything which gives the Undead or Construct types is golden, otherwise look for SLAs Regeneration and Immunities. Obviously anything with a Fly speed is also good.

*Wizard + Divine Oracle + Magelord + Spontaneous Divination. These kind of high-op PO build ideas are the main reason I read the Giant forums, but I find they are best suited to the Black Hats in my games. :smalltongue:

**I run medium-high op games, but my main problem in the past was planning for contingencies. After a recurring villain was literally reduced to dust in one round by my least munchkin-y player, I learned my lesson; I build every main villain as being capable of everything up to Wish-loops and play them down to the level of the party.