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Fyermind
2012-04-25, 03:23 PM
I am looking for ways to handle a charger. A PC approached me asking to take pounce as a barbarian at first level. From here he WILL focus on making his charge and power attack absurd.

I really want to let him do this, because I don't like limiting characters. So I want the forum's assistance coming up with ways to keep the game fun for everyone even when he is such a one-trick pony.

The rest of the party will probably be Dragonfire Adept, Dungeoncrasher fighter (another charge oriented build), AoO focussed fighter/warblade (aiming at stormguard warrior).

Advice I can give the barbarian to help him diversify is also welcome.

Flickerdart
2012-04-25, 03:28 PM
All of these chargers will block off each other's charge vectors, resulting in hilarity. You don't even have to do anything, but if you still want to, simple difficult terrain takes care of that. At later levels, use incorporeal enemies attacking from inside walls, and flying/swimming/climbing foes - basically, as long as the charger can't reach the enemy, he's not that scary. Elusive Target will cancel out the whole Power Attack thing, and reach+Knockback will let opponents knock the chargers around and stop them from connecting. There are a couple of maneuvers in the Tome of Battle that also stop charges.

Fyermind
2012-04-25, 03:38 PM
I am looking for a way to allow them to use their abilities and make them feel useful and strong without breaking every BBEG in round 1.

Copious amounts of difficult terrain are tantamount to DM fiat.
They will obscure charge vectors occasionally, but the dungeoncrasher is a tactician at heart and will be able to mitigate such issues.

Similarly if every BBEG is standing on a ledge or behind a pile of rubble at the beginning of every fight the players will start to realize I am tailoring every encounter to match their strengths. They may even remember that it is just a game or worse yet that I am only human.

I tend to like mixed group encounters that are very challenging, so having a few NPCs whose role is intercepting or absorbing charges is not at all out of the question.

Red_Dog
2012-04-25, 03:39 PM
Cometary Collision[phbII] + Steadfast boots[MiC] = death
*Or just Cometary Collision + Delay action*

Or delay action + Longspear/other pointy stick.

Or Counter charge from setting sun discipline

Also have any of them put ranks in balance? If no, Than see if summoning used motor oilgrease is for you! ^^

These solutions are dirt cheap and require little prepwork.

Some nicer once include force/stone/other walls[fun when delayed action... maybe too hurtful though lol], solid fog/entangle/any battle field control[especially when widened], provoking reflex saves[which will likely be another weak point of this rag-tag team], Breath weapons[again, reflex saves, and can be made into entangling breath], plunging them into water[charging without swim speed is difficult], pitch black darkness, invisibility or simply sitting on a tree/balcony/wall as they probably lack fly speed and climb+charge doesn't work... etc. etc. etc. etc. etc....

Charging isn't too scary. Its a good strategy, but if players do not have skills in WBL-mancy, or are terrible at making friends with people who have the support they need, they will have major issues with very little effort on your part. Said but true = \

Flickerdart
2012-04-25, 03:42 PM
Similarly if every BBEG is standing on a ledge or behind a pile of rubble at the beginning of every fight the players will start to realize I am tailoring every encounter to match their strengths.
No, this just means that the BBEG is capable of looking and thinking. Oh, hey, my enemies can and do charge into the thick of it as soon as they get the chance, maybe I should take care to avoid letting them do this as often as possible.

Besides, I listed plenty of other methods you can use to vary things up.

Fyermind
2012-04-25, 03:52 PM
They will have a very good time with delayed wall of X spells. So will I. Thank you. Illusory foes and mirror image can also extend encounters beyond the first round.

Steadfast boots are exactly what I am looking for for dedicated anti-chargers.

Elusive target and a dip in swordsage are certainly options for my paranoid masterminds.

Knockback is another feat I certainly will use on a few of my bodyguards.

I can be more conservative in my rules on sight and use vision obscuration to block charges flat out, or to force more ingenious strategies.

It looks like I will need more terrain on my battlefields as it will be a much larger issue than I am used to.

rmg22893
2012-04-25, 03:53 PM
They will have a very good time with delayed wall of X spells. So will I. Thank you. Illusory foes and mirror image can also extend encounters beyond the first round.

Steadfast boots are exactly what I am looking for for dedicated anti-chargers.

Elusive target and a dip in swordsage are certainly options for my paranoid masterminds.

Knockback is another feat I certainly will use on a few of my bodyguards.

I can be more conservative in my rules on sight and use vision obscuration to block charges flat out, or to force more ingenious strategies.

It looks like I will need more terrain on my battlefields as it will be a much larger issue than I am used to.

Invisible Metamagic'd wall of fire. Mmmm, deep fried barbarian.

Z3ro
2012-04-25, 04:01 PM
Simplest way to let them charge but keep things sporting is larger number of weaker enemies. Chargers will typically tank AC, so even weak enemies can hit them. And if they obliterate one weak guy, there's twenty more to take care of, letting the rest of the party play too. As far as bosses go, same thing, make sure they have plenty of mooks and aren't obvious (so the chargers don't go right for them).

nedz
2012-04-25, 04:07 PM
If you have tactically minded players then you have to give them some terrain to work with.

As for making their lives hard, you can just leave some furniture lying around. Tables, Benches, Barrels etc. They should be able to manouvre around it.

You could even have one scene with lots of lightweight stuff in the way, which wont impede their charge - but just look cool as it get knocked out of the way. I'm thinking Starsky and Hutch and Cardboard boxes here.:smallbiggrin:

Red_Dog
2012-04-25, 04:08 PM
Invisible Metamagic'd wall of fire. Mmmm, deep fried barbarian.

Maybe on low levels only. however, try his =>

3 wands for 3 lackeys => invisible wall of fire, 2 solid walls of some kind.

invisible fire wall, the 2 delay action.
Target runs buy, hits the firewall, raise solid walls behind and in front of him.
Cook until crispy
*grease optional, if you like deep fried*

*This is of course a joke ^^*

==============================================>

Fyermind=>

Solid fog is essentially a mobile trap for most melee, and comes in a wand[only lvl4!] if needed to be accessed without a caster. It is very hard to circumvent because its big, its tall, and hard to jump out of or over[unlike mundane difficult terrain].
There are quite a few spells like it. On lower levels try infamous Entangle. A 750gp wand with 50[!] charges that has terrible DC[11 i think?] still halves the speed with NO save, and is 40 flipping feet in radius for minutes[in combat, that's permanent].
***EDIT, Another note on solid fog. Without means of portation, FoM or going incorporeal, to my knowledge there is no way to leave it[Just checked, Bracers of wind from MiC are not strong enough to make a severe wind]. This mean, a guy/gal or guys/gals cought in it, are dead in the water as anyone else outside is quick to start throwing fireballs/anything they can into the fog. This makes the trap a bit too potent and you might want to see on how to give your players a fighting chance. Can any of them dispel?***


Also I forgot about delayed action teleportaion, and various transpositions... There is that too = \

Akal Saris
2012-04-25, 04:23 PM
I've ran a game for about 4 years with a L17 centaur PC that's house-ruled to allow spirited charge and cavalier (x4 charge bonus) charge bonuses along with leap attack, so I sympathize with your plight :P Here's what I've done to keep the game interesting for the other PCs (who are a sneaky warlock and a ftr/wizard gish).

Solving the problem through difficult opponents:
- Huge foes with 15ft+ reach and several natural attacks make charging a lot more riskier, especially if PCs are fond of dropping AC instead of attack bonuses.
-As mentioned, mirror images and illusions are effective - I've only used them in 2 encounters so far since it can be frustrating for PCs. Greater Blink is another good spell in this vein
-Incorporeal undead were quite effective as well (Is there anything they can't solve?), and I had included them to counter the party warlock anyhow

Solving the problem by making others more awesome:
-Encounters with large numbers of moderate-strength opponents (Say, 10-15), will make the other 3 PCs feel more useful, particularly the dragonfire adept.
-Encounters in small areas will make the dungeoncrasher feel more awesome, so don't forget to put trees and rocks in outdoor locations in places where he can bull rush opponents into them with a little work.

With that said, sometimes the best approach is to simply let him charge and be quite effective at ending an opponent in one shot. I often include one extra opponent in every major encounter that's a big, walking pile of hit points type of bruiser, whose sole purpose is to survive 1 or 2 rounds from the charger and who would otherwise be a serious threat to the party.

In terms of diversifying, the player could take the Track feat and increase his survival/knowledge nature to fill a gap that's missing in the current party roster. He might also go for tripping (wolf totem barbarian 2 from UA gets improved trip for free) to complement the other melee fighters.

Fyermind
2012-04-25, 04:32 PM
The added bruiser is a nice one.

I will encourage him to consider tripping as well so he doesn't get bored.

Thanks so much for all the quick responses. We now have one very happy pouncing barbarian.

limejuicepowder
2012-04-25, 06:12 PM
Another fun enemy for the barb to fight might be a.....charger! How cool would it be for two enemies to rush at each other, with no thought to surroundings or consequence. Combined with the above "light terrain" feature, you have Abomination vs Incredible Hulk, DnD style.

If the PC and enemy are aware of each other's tactics, you could set up a very cerebral throw-down, with both parties trying to maneuver to a situation where a lethal charge is possible.

The chance exist of course for the them to one-shot simultaneously, so be careful xD.

Flickerdart
2012-04-25, 07:25 PM
Re: tripping

He might not have enough feats to do both charging and tripping super well. However, a large reach will also benefit charging (since he can reach things by moving fewer squares and hence can avoid piles of rubble somewhat), and he should have a high Strength score and a large size anyway. So there's some overlap between the roles, and if he places his focus there, he will be able to do both quite well.

moritheil
2012-04-25, 07:54 PM
Just . . . let them.

Boss fights should try to make their tactics different. But if someone builds a pure charger, and exults in turning goblins into a fine red mist? As a DM, that's fine by me. Remember that any fight with competent spear-wielding enemies will turn their day into a bad one. (Spears can be against a charge for 2x damage and some circumstances or weapons give 3x damage.) When you do need to rein it in, remember that Caltrops are a 0-level spell and/or a very cheap item for bad guys to have, and Fireball has a range of over 400 feet.

Also note that once they get into a rut with ending combat swiftly, you should begin to vary the AC on your monsters considerably; it's possible by the rules to build characters with 30+ AC before level 5 (and monsters significantly higher, if you care to do the template math), so don't feel bad about handwaving some named NPCs to have AC just high enough that they need to use surprise or several applications of Aid Another to hit.

I would still let their mass charge tactics work 80% of the time. Doing so highlights why the villain is worthy of being a villain.

Water_Bear
2012-04-25, 08:10 PM
With Chargers, the main danger is their massive amounts of damage. There isn't a good way (that I know of anyway) to make a CR appropriate encounter with enough HP to actually take that much punishment.

So my solution would be one of two things; the fun and the irritating.

The Fun:
Hordes.
Huge hordes of Legion Devils and anything else which is crunchy and fights in a coordinated fashion in melee. Low-level Humanoids with Feats like Ready Shot from Heroes of Battle or Spears can deal good damage against a charger and can put up a fight because the PCs are forced to deal damage in ~20hp chunks.

The Irritating:
Illusions, Flight, Battlefield control magics.
This is the perfect opportunity to stroke your player's egos. They are all Tier 3 or below, so when you send out an honest-to-goodness Evil Wizard they will feel like they're fighting a storm. And, since you'll be playing the BBEG somewhat below their Intelligence due to hubris or something, they will eventually win and have the villain dead at the end of their lances.

Either way this should let you drag fights into the 10+ rounds stage and make your players feel bad-ass. Some players like anti-climactic beat-downs but I think its better to have a few hard-fought victories than a bunch of easy ones.

ericgrau
2012-04-26, 02:02 AM
I really want to let him do this, because I don't like limiting characters. So I want the forum's assistance coming up with ways to keep the game fun for everyone even when he is such a one-trick pony.

... Dungeoncrasher fighter (another charge oriented build)
Allowing the 99th charger build without restrictions is actually limiting characters because it prevents the 100 other character concepts that can't keep up with chargers. If you want him to be able to do his thing freely without making all these encounters that totally shut him down, then put some restrictions on what he can do. Like no shocktrooper nor wraithstrike, as those are a couple of the biggest. Pounce is also strong but he seems to be pretty heavily set on it at level 1 so you might want to draw the line above pounce and allow it. Likewise leap attack is pretty strong but possibly allowable. Look over what he picks and see what's reasonable for your group. Then send normal encounters at the party rather than ones that shut him down (except by pure chance). That would be worse than banning abilities, because then you let him walk into a trap with no way to change his ability selection.

moritheil
2012-04-26, 02:20 AM
Like no shocktrooper nor wraithstrike, as those are a couple of the biggest.

RAW wraithstrikers can't 2h power attack (somatic component), so it's not that desirable for a charger build. Also, there's always Elusive Target, as someone else mentioned. If 1h weapons have to be used, Power Attack isn't reliable, and full power attacks are sometimes wasted, then wraithstrike isn't nearly as broken.

ericgrau
2012-04-26, 02:46 AM
IIRC it's a free action to hold a two handed weapon in one hand and another free action to grip it in two hands again. Otherwise wizards would have trouble wielding staffs and casting.

Gwendol
2012-04-26, 06:31 AM
You will need to pay attention to bossfights in particular, since the massive damage by the chargers can take out a single enemy very quickly (especially if they play smart and use stuff like tanglefoot bags, etc, to make the mark an easy target). Using multiple enemies that are not always within cleaving range is a good way of making the fights last a little, and still provide some fun challenges for the players.
I think terrain obstacles for charging should be used very sparingly.

Zubrowka74
2012-04-26, 09:50 AM
Another option is to have archers pepper the area between the charger and the boss, 300-style. Volleys of pointy objects has always been a good deterent to charges. Of course, Protection from arrows or similar effects will negate this, but this is just another option if you get tired of always pulling the same trick.

manyslayer
2012-04-26, 12:02 PM
For a boss battle, I'd say it also partially depends on the type of boss. For an intelligent boss with access to intel on the PCs, he'll know what to expect and be prepared for it. As well as the terrain ideas, if I'm a boss and know a massive damage train will charge me when it shows up, I am going to not be the obvious boss. If I'm present I'll be invisible, dressed as a normal guard, whatever. Meanwhile, in the dark robes all menacing looking on the dais before my throne of skulls will be a minion/simulacrum/disguised undead with a contingent fireball.

Also, to annoy the charger using a 1st level wizard, go conjurer with the abrupt jaunt ACF. A few low level spells also help (mirror image, displacement). If they go with true sight, have something that is dangerous to look upon covered by an illusion. You and your guards are safe but the true seeing PC gets blasted, driven insane, etc..

Answerer
2012-04-26, 12:13 PM
This is the problem with lower-tier characters that are built well: they tend to have one trick that will end the fight instantly, but that one trick is easily stopped.

Charging is the quintessential example.

As a DM, I would not want to be in this position; it's largely a no-win scenario. I would encourage my players to choose somewhat higher-tier classes. Once they get to about Tier 3, they won't be automatically useless if their "one thing" doesn't work, because they won't have just "one thing."

I'm not aware of anything particularly useful you can do about the situation otherwise.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2012-04-26, 01:53 PM
First, as the game goes along, intersperse a few random encounters where their shtick works without hitch, and they just straight up maul the encounter (or, rarely, where the encounter is an above-CR brute that still gives a fight, and they get rewarded amply for defeating it). That should counterbalance any dissatisfaction that comes as you try to deal with the pony's one trick. IME the best way to deal with chargers is to make their thing possible but not automatic or free. If you have a large enough battlefield, difficult terrain will take away some charge vectors and leave others open. If you also throw in some mooks, perhaps the charger either has to charge a mook or take some AoOs to charge a more important foe. If the mooks form a phalanx, tanking AC instead of AB with shock trooper suddenly doesn't seem like "free" power attack. Those decisions allow for the charger to have a meaningful impact with some tactical thinking.

ThreeDSix
2012-04-26, 06:20 PM
My two cents:

What about using the Combat Facing rules, UA pg 124? BBEG can set against a charge so one charger has to draw his attention so the other can rush him.

...Unless it's too late to introduce variant rules. :smallannoyed:

doko239
2012-04-26, 06:37 PM
Have the BBEG on the opposite end of a 10-ft by 10-ft by 60-ft hallway from the party. The Charger will do what he does best and CHAAAAAARGE!!.... right into the Gelatinous Cube midway down the hall.

:smallbiggrin:

Old tricks are the best!

moritheil
2012-04-26, 06:47 PM
IIRC it's a free action to hold a two handed weapon in one hand and another free action to grip it in two hands again. Otherwise wizards would have trouble wielding staffs and casting.

A staff is a double weapon. So it can be wielded in one hand.


A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can’t use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.

There is no problem in the general case of wielding a staff and casting. There IS a problem wielding a staff, trying to TWF, and casting with somatics. None of those wizards were TWFing, I suspect.

Grendus
2012-04-26, 07:09 PM
I'll throw my support in for the "have more enemies" solution. The charger can have a blast one shotting his way through the mooks, but there will still be targets left at the end of his turn for the rest of the party to have fun with. Make sure to have him put some skill points into tracking and intimidate as well and he should be fine for out of combat utility. This will be a melee heavy group, so for boss-type fights maybe throw in a few skirmishers to keep them on their toes. Other than that, go wild.

AslanCross
2012-04-26, 07:28 PM
All of these chargers will block off each other's charge vectors, resulting in hilarity. You don't even have to do anything, but if you still want to, simple difficult terrain takes care of that. At later levels, use incorporeal enemies attacking from inside walls, and flying/swimming/climbing foes - basically, as long as the charger can't reach the enemy, he's not that scary.

This. Throughout my entire DMing experience (which isn't that long), I've come to love messing with terrain. The terrain has the side effect of making the encounters much more interesting than "plain old 20'x20' room with clear charge vectors."

And I don't mean simply adding difficult terrain. Perhaps the enemy is sniping them from a ledge high above a magma chasm. Force that barbarian to climb up the ledge and physically hurl the guy down. Perhaps the enemy is a chain devil using its dancing chains ability to Spider-Man across the meat hooks in a slaughterhouse. Things like that.

Spuddles
2012-04-26, 07:35 PM
Double or triple the HP of monsters that you want to last, arbitrarily. It's totally fine for you to do, as DM. Double the number of hard monsters in a fight, too. Instead of one dragon, it's a mated pair. Filling combat with mooks can draw combat out and let the BBEG get his few spells off before they cleave their way to him.

Inspire courage bards and crusaders are incredible force multipliers, getting the to hit and damage of hordes of low level monsters to a threatening level

Rubik
2012-04-26, 07:37 PM
You could also do the whole Tucker's kobolds thing on occasion (though perhaps not to that degree). Play some of their enemies smart, and have them climb into trees, use bolt-holes, throw tanglefoot bags, and toss out caltrops. Anyone with an 8+ Int could probably tell that the guys with the huge honkin' swords hit hard, and so they'll be trying to NOT let that happen.

In short, use tactics (especially guerilla tactics) and even low-level critters can be a real challenge.


Make sure to have him put some skill points into tracking and intimidate as well This is basically just having him burn resources on doing what the DM would have them do anyway (because very few DMs don't want their players actually following their adventure hooks).

crazyhedgewizrd
2012-04-26, 07:44 PM
the feat called hold the line gives the character a free AoO attack against a charging foe, and use that attack as a trip attack. This just render the person prone on the ground and cannot attack.

JadePhoenix
2012-04-26, 07:50 PM
My advice is to use an actual map, with actual miniatures. Tactical positioning means charging is not always possible. People claiming chargers are overpowered or whatever just don't use tactical positioning.

moritheil
2012-04-26, 07:51 PM
the feat called hold the line gives the character a free AoO attack against a charging foe, and use that attack as a trip attack. This just render the person prone on the ground and cannot attack.

Hold the Line gives an AOO at the entry of a threatened square as opposed to at the exit. It's not really an extra free AOO against chargers, per se: if you have reach, you get that same AOO anyway.

If you really want to be annoying to them, there's the classic Thicket of Blades + Hold the Line + Stand Still: any movement provokes AOOs, even 5' steps; AOOs are resolved at the start of movement rather than after moving, and if you give up your damage and succeed at hitting someone, they basically can't move (make a save vs. the damage you would have done.)

I would only use this in BBEG fights, though.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2012-04-26, 08:41 PM
Double or triple the HP of monsters that you want to last, arbitrarily. It's totally fine for you to do, as DM.This might work in some groups, but I would find this very frustrating as a player. If you're just going to throw the rules out the window whenever it suits your fancy, cowboy up and play free form/Amber Diceless/whathaveyou. Then we're being honest with ourselves as far as how the game's outcomes are being decided. I agree with the rest of your advice, especially mooks + buffers.

Spuddles
2012-04-26, 09:38 PM
This might work in some groups, but I would find this very frustrating as a player. If you're just going to throw the rules out the window whenever it suits your fancy, cowboy up and play free form/Amber Diceless/whathaveyou. Then we're being honest with ourselves as far as how the game's outcomes are being decided. I agree with the rest of your advice, especially mooks + buffers.

That's some pretty outrageous hyperbole. Do you really think a DM giving his monster 300 hp instead of 100 hp vs a charge build party is throwing all the rules out? It's just as arbitrary as giving every enemy elusive target, a wand of grease, and the winged template. Staying within the CR paradigm, jumping through templat and advancement hoops is really a waste of time. The rules give us stuff like clockwork horrors and damn crabs. There's nothing wrong with changing some numbers and leaving others alone. Advanced brute type monsters vs. melee heavy parties are unfair, as more than HP is going up, and at a faster rate than the party's.

Unquestionably sticking to a broken ruleset while ignoring the party's composition is a really terrible way to DM. I you don't understand the mechanics well enough to tweak encounters, you're going to end up frustrating your players. I understand that some DMs ge a kick out of giving the monster the slow trait, improved toughness, non-associated class levels, and dragon's toughness x4, but why bother with those hoops? You get better, faster results by changing a single number and then worrying about other stuff.

Soulean
2012-04-26, 10:07 PM
Stand at the edge of a pit trap or other nasty trap...and by stand I mean put an illusion of yourself.

Anything that causes exhaustion stops charging. Like Ray of Exhaustion at 3rd level.

Higher level readied action prismatic wall when you get attacked. Can't see past it so 50% miss chance and full prismatic effects. Lower level any wall will stop a charge or the level 1 spell Blockade. Or Web. You get the idea.

moritheil
2012-04-26, 10:12 PM
If you're just going to throw the rules out the window whenever it suits your fancy, cowboy up and play free form/Amber Diceless/whathaveyou. Then we're being honest with ourselves as far as how the game's outcomes are being decided.

Hey now, Amber Diceless has rules. It just happens that those rules dictate the extent to which players get to screw each other over. :smallwink:

Endarire
2012-04-26, 10:13 PM
I wrote one of the books on charging in D&D 3.5. Hood (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872838/Little_Red_Raiding_Hood:_A_Tale_of_38;_Guide_to_th e_3.5_Dragoon).

As for countering charges, that's mostly terrain and positioning. If you have a contingent teleport/dimension door, or you can Abrupt Jaunt out of the charger's reach, you nullify him for awhile.

D&D is lots of rocket tag. If your charger hits, he'll probably one-round or one-shot anything. If he doesn't, your BBEG can get away or retaliate.

As for lots of minions, I assume the charger isn't alone. If the party has a Wizard focused on crowd control (glitterdust, stinking cloud), the minions are out of the way for awhile, though that may block your charger's line.

legomaster00156
2012-04-26, 10:16 PM
I know a way to stop a charger. It's called Fly.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2012-04-26, 10:36 PM
You're right that giving every enemy specific charge counters is as arbitrary as jacking up HP, because both disregard the rules to an extent. One fudges the stat block, and the other takes DM knowledge and unreasonably applies it to every NPC and monster in the campaign. They're both ultimately metagame responses to character creation decisions made after the fact.

This is the ratchet effect as it applies to players and DMs. Players specialize in X, but the DM still wants to challenge the players when they do X. He does this by arbitrarily pumping whatever opposes X in their monsters/encounters. This can be enemy HP, skill DCs, AC, to-hit, etc. If the player anticipates this behavior, he's effectively discouraged from specializing in anything and is heavily encouraged play a versatile/highish tier character with qualitative abilities (which are often harder, if not impossible, to ratchet). Worse, if the player doesn't anticipate this behavior, he is punished for specializing. His specialty cost him in other areas and ultimately granted him little to no meaningful impact in the game.

If the DM shows up before character creation and says "guys, my monsters are going to have about triple the HP they normally do, but I'm going to adjust CR to account for that" that might be a weird game, but it's up front and uses the established rules. If the DM changes monsters after the fact or uses OOC knowledge to change their tactics, then the rules are obviously getting in the DM's way, so why not go to a system with more abstract rules with less stats? I've seriously encouraged DMs to move to less crunchy systems, even though I like said crunchy systems, because of this problem and other, similar problems. No hyperbole.

Side note: Indeed, Amber Diceless has rules that impede actions, but they are qualitative; also, that's just the system that pops up in my head when I think "system with no stats."

Curmudgeon
2012-04-27, 12:53 AM
Vary the enemies, and vary the terrain. That keeps things interesting, and you shouldn't need to go out of your way to impede chargers. Have some enemies make ranged attacks from a couple hundred yards away. Have others be wimpy but numerous, so charging at one of them will just take out a single enemy for the round. Some of the encounters should be in forest terrain (where trees allow for only short charge paths), or indoors (where the usual furniture like tables and chairs make the 10' minimum charge movement difficult).

In short, doing your job as a DM to make encounters different and memorable should make charge attacks sometimes powerful, sometimes weak, and sometimes impossible. That inconstancy will provide the player some incentive to build other capabilities into the character in later levels.

Alienist
2012-04-27, 09:48 AM
Solve it the historical way. Stick the monsters with the pole arms in the front rank. Then when they move out of the 10' square they attract multiple attacks of opportunity.

Telonius
2012-04-27, 12:12 PM
Vary the encounters. Chargers are one-trick ponies, so you really should let them do their trick every so often.

I've found that a very good way to do this is to throw multiple enemies at the party. The charger has to pick and choose which foe he's going to splatter that round. When he hits, it will feel like success (Yay, 864d12 damage!) but it won't end the encounter. When you get to a BBEG, make it clear that they've heard of the party and know of their capabilities. Feel free to make it so the BBEG can't be charged, but also never have him fight the whole party by himself. Mooks or summoned monsters will give the chargers something to do.

Fyermind
2012-04-30, 09:39 PM
We just ran session 1 and it went pretty darn well. The chargers had fun circling to charge around each other and ended up exposing the party a bit at one point. I decided to send them against an extra two mooks or one bruiser in most of my encounters to account for the devastation they can deal, but their charges aren't really optimized yet. This means that in a few weeks when they start charging with a few levels under their belt they will find encounters much easier for a bit...

I made one round with some halbardeers with dogs. It was great. A dog countercharged like a boss and "flying" tripped the fighter mid run. Everyone enjoyed it a lot especially because the dogs were fair game for charges, and the halbardeers were totally not. While their ideal strategy worked for half the encounter, the rest of the party got to shine there.

I've copied down my favorite ideas from here for later fights. Let it be said that if my players ever tick off any gnomes they will be very frustrated indeed in final encounters.