Problem Character

[White_Drake]

Hello, our party is high power, and we're all high level, but we're okay with that, it's our game and we like it. The trouble is mostly just one character, who is a real pain. It's not that the guy who runs him is that bad, but at the gaming table, all his flaws multiply ten-fold. He's playing a Sun Giant. An ECL 14 Sun Giant. I think monster characters are fine, even if they're not my style, but an ECL 14 Sun Giant? I mean come on. The crux of the problem is that his broken character is easily outshining everybody else, and it's making things pretty annoying. What happened was, we were young and naive, when we first found the monster character rules. So this player looks through every Monster Manual so he can find the "best" monster to play. After bringing in, and then suiciding about three characters over the course of about two months, he finally settles on Sun Giant. One slight problem, there aren't any rules in Savage Species covering Sun Giants. Solution: another player works out a chart with him, and submits it to the DM for approval. Unfortunately, this all happened without the rest of the party's knowledge, and the assisting player knew virtually nothing about LA. To compound the issue, the player who wrote up the chart has terrible penmanship--I mean totally illegible in places--and showed it to our DM at about 1 AM, in a dimly lit room. Normally our DM is great, but he isn't used to the new rules after playing with AD&D for 20 years. We imagine he waived it without really realizing what he was doing. Now he can't very well just tell the player, "Your character is broken, make a new one," because it's been several months (it took time for the degree of brokenness to manifest). However, the party Fighter is pretty pissed off that after about four years on his current character, playing once a week, the Sun Giant shows up and makes him useless by throwing out 300 damage in a round. To make things worse, unlike all our characters, who were laboriously brought up from 1st level whelps, his came in at 7th, in the middle of a campaign, during which he hung back and grabbed xp. I'm also pretty ticked off, because now my Dex score, previously the highest ability score in the party, and my pride and joy, is crushed by his fifty-something Str. To make things worse (again) the player isn't exactly a good winner (whenever anything hurts his beloved Giant he practically tears up, and if things do go his way, then he just rubs our faces in it.) If the prior statement haven't given you a hint, asking him to drop the character would be laughable. Things have gotten so bad we're considering assassinating the character. Like I said earlier (if you can remember that far back) he's generally a decent(ish) guy, and since he lives across the street from the DM's house, asking him to leave the group wouldn't end well. Please help. :smalleek:

[Saito Takuji]

well before you do anything too drastic the most obvious would be to sit down with him and talk to him, explain how his character is ruining the fun for the rest of the players, and see if he can be reasoned with, get everyone in on it to.

[Lostbutseeking]

As an new PC joining an old group his ECL shouldnt be higher than the rest of the groups members ECL, while you havent said that was the case it certainly sounds like it was.

Assuming that this is still the case it is perfectly reasonable for the DM to talk to him and tell him he needs to reroll.

On that note - savage species is 3.0 and notoriously badly balanced - almost anything from it that gets used needs pretty strict oversight from the DM.

Should you or the DM wish to kill the giant then standard dragon killing methods should work, in particular a spectral handed (empowered) maximized shivering touch will leave him a coup de grace away from death.

[Righteous Doggy]

Just talk to him, and really that character sounds like he shouldn't have been put in the game. I understand not limiting people, but its a 3.0 race and I don't know how he fits in with the rest of the group. Can he even go through doors!?

[Yawgmoth]

Now he can't very well just tell the player, "Your character is broken, make a new one,"WRONG!!

This is exactly what your DM should do. No riders or corollaries or anything of the sort; just this sentence, verbatim, and if that player doesn't like it he can make his own game.

[Toliudar]

There might not be a need to remove the character entirely, but simply to have him sit down with the DM to tone it down. It sounds like there were signficant errors made in introducing the character.

Even the slightly wonky ECL of 14 shouldn't really be a problem...if the rest of you are 14th level. To be honest, if the rest of you ARE 14th level, a Sun Giant should actually be having trouble keeping up. Which leads me to suspect that the rest of you are significantly lower in level, or else he's been optimized to a degree out of keeping with the group's usual play.

So he could keep the character in name and basic substance, but tone down the racial levels. Using, say, the Fire Giant class from Savage Species. Let him keep the Sun giant SLA's if you think it'll make him happy.

[Zeful]

WRONG!!

This is exactly what your DM should do. No riders or corollaries or anything of the sort; just this sentence, verbatim, and if that player doesn't like it he can make his own game.

Right because having an open and honest discussion of the issues, and coming to a consensus on how to fix it (which does not unilaterally require retiring the character) is obviously the coward's way out.

[Ziegander]

Hello, our party is high power, and we're all high level, but we're okay with that, it's our game and we like it. The trouble is mostly just one character, who is a real pain. It's not that the guy who runs him is that bad, but at the gaming table, all his flaws multiply ten-fold. He's playing a Sun Giant. An ECL 14 Sun Giant. I think monster characters are fine, even if they're not my style, but an ECL 14 Sun Giant? I mean come on.

You said that your party is both high-powered, and high-level. So, what level are the other members of your party?


One slight problem, there aren't any rules in Savage Species covering Sun Giants. Solution: another player works out a chart with him, and submits it to the DM for approval. Unfortunately, this all happened without the rest of the party's knowledge, and the assisting player knew virtually nothing about LA.

So, are you saying that the player of the Sun Giant would not have been allowed to join the game as a Sun Giant without a table of monster levels, like the ones in Savage Species, to progress through?

Are you also saying that, because there was no such table, a player that has little to no knowledge of Level Adjustment (or other entrenched game mechanics) homebrewed one for the Sun Giant?


To compound the issue, the player who wrote up the chart has terrible penmanship--I mean totally illegible in places--and showed it to our DM at about 1 AM, in a dimly lit room. Normally our DM is great, but he isn't used to the new rules after playing with AD&D for 20 years. We imagine he waived it without really realizing what he was doing.

So, if I'm understanding everything to this point correctly, none of the rest of your group is playing with any homebrewed material, one member is playing a homebrewed, monster-levels Sun Giant, and your DM, you deem likely, didn't bother to even read through all of this homebrewed mess before allowing it into the game?


Now he can't very well just tell the player, "Your character is broken, make a new one," because it's been several months (it took time for the degree of brokenness to manifest).

He really can, to be honest, though, at this point, it's beginning to sound like he maybe should say something a lot more like, "I'm sorry, when I allowed you to join the campaign as a Sun Giant, I really had no idea what you could do, and now I, and the rest of the group think you're overpowered. I screwed up, and it's costing everyone, so can you and I work on a new character for you?"


However, the party Fighter is pretty pissed off that after about four years on his current character, playing once a week, the Sun Giant shows up and makes him useless by throwing out 300 damage in a round.

I'm not familiar with a Sun Giant, so I don't know how feasible this is at 14th level, but it is from Monster Manual II, which is made of feces and trash, so there's that for you. I never use anything out of that book, because it's all so poorly designed.

Of course, a 14th level Fighter isn't by any standard a strong character at all, but I should expect that, with some optimization, throwing out 300 damage per round shouldn't be so hard to do with one (a 14th level Fighter that is).

EDIT: Okay, wow, having looked at the statblock for a Sun Giant, I can safely say that it is not only horribly flawed (as in it doesn't follow the rules for creature advancement), but it's also pretty weak... If he were to play a "straight" (see: not a homebrewed mess) Sun Giant, he would be considered a 16th level character, with 13 HD, and only spell-like abilities, reach, and gargantuan weaponry going for him. If you were 14th level characters, the DM, technically, shouldn't even allow the Sun Giant, but it doesn't seem to have any abilities that match 14th level characters anyway. Of course, with a screwed up monster-level advancement table, who knows?


To make things worse, unlike all our characters, who were laboriously brought up from 1st level whelps, his came in at 7th, in the middle of a campaign, during which he hung back and grabbed xp.

Hmm... again, what level was the rest of the party when the Sun Giant joined? It sounds like they were significantly higher than he was... Your whole description of this "problem" is just puzzle after puzzle, and little of it makes much sense to me.


I'm also pretty ticked off, because now my Dex score, previously the highest ability score in the party, and my pride and joy, is crushed by his fifty-something Str.

Hmm... a Sun Giant is supposed to have 37 Str, not 50-something. By 14th level, he could have a +6 item for Strength, if he wanted to shell out the cash, bringing him up to 43. I suppose he can probably Bull's Strength himself for another 4. This is sounding suspiciously like a homebrewed monster-level table gone awry.


Things have gotten so bad we're considering assassinating the character.

That's got to be one of the worst things you could do. Outright telling him that he must make a new character or leave the game is a much better solution than this one.

We need much more information from you to give you better advice than just, "force him to make a new character," because right now, that's about the best advice we can give.

EDIT: Speaking of information we really need to know, what the heck does the Sun Giant's homebrewed mess of a monster-level advancement table look like? I suppose no one knows? If so, that's a crystal-clear sign that it shouldn't be allowed at the table.

[Morph Bark]

Didn't you post the very same thing a week ago? :smallconfused:

[Yawgmoth]

Right because having an open and honest discussion of the issues, and coming to a consensus on how to fix it (which does not unilaterally require retiring the character) is obviously the coward's way out.Because a guy who ambushes a new to 3e DM with an overpowered progression at night in poor light conditions is definitely going to be open and honest about anything. If you buy that, I have several swamplands connected by famous bridges to sell you at a great price.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Well, out of the box, a Sun Giant has:
Ability adjustments: +26 STR, +4 DEX, +14 CON, +4 INT, +8 WIS, +4 CHA (after adjusting for Huge size)
Huge (-2 hit/AC, +8 grapple, -8 hide, 15 ft. space and tall reach, 10 ft. long reach)
+10 natural armor
Dark vision 60 ft.
Spell-like abilities (CL 13): Spike Stones, Stone Shape, Wall of Stone at-will
Fire subtype (immune to fire, vulnerable to cold)
Rock throwing/rock catching (what is this?)

Now, I'm not great at eyeballing LA, but that looks like more than a +1 to me, even when attached to 13 RHD. In fact, the 3.0 MMII (I don't have the 3.5, unfortunately) suggests that a sun giant's ECL is equal to its class level +16 (MMII p. 111), so a Sun Giant character should have a LA of +3 out of the starting gate (meaning he should, at ECL 14, have 11 RHD and no class levels). That's not interpretive at all; that's right there in the monster entry.

Issue your complaint with the DM, and cite the Monster Manual II entry given to you here as proof. If your ECL 14 Sun Giant has more than 11 RHD or ANY class levels, the player is cheating. Straight up. If, for whatever reason, the player is ECL 14 (counting RHD and LA only, as we've already established that there should be no class levels) and the rest of the party is not, then again, the player is cheating (for building a character that, by default, gets a level progression advanced of the rest of the party).

I also take issue with the "hung back and grabbed xp" part detailed in the original post. Your group DOES know that nobody is simply entitled to experience, right? That it's something that is earned and not given? If someone tried something like that in my group, I'd tell them that "hanging back" to collect xp is NOT how a hero becomes heroic, and experience literally MEANS "experience" (enter dictionary definition of experience), and sorry, "hanging back" is NOT an "experience", so no experience for you.

Beyond that, specifics are necessary. What level is the party? What's the general make-up? I know there is a Fighter; what else?

[prufock]

Sounds like a case of bad houseruling that slipped by the DM. I agree with Tylenol, rules for Sun Giant LA are available in the MM2, bring that up.

A different tactic would be to ask for houseruled stuff for the rest of the party, to bring you up to the giant's level. Free templates or something. Though countering one bad houserule with another is probably bad form.

Giant's player will probably feel like he's being attacked, so be wary of that.

[White_Drake]

Didn't you post the very same thing a week ago? :smallconfused:

Oh, sorry:smallredface: I've had a tight schedule and I've been attempting to post a lot of things, but before I finish typing I need to go; I thought that this was one of the things a had to scrap because I didn't finish it.

The party has a Werepanther Rogue, a Dwarf Fighter, an Elf Wizard, a Gnome Bard, a Human Fighter (who uses a bow), a Halfling Thief, an Elf Cleric and the aforementioned Sun Giant.

[Taelas]

In fact, the 3.0 MMII (I don't have the 3.5, unfortunately)

There isn't one. There's a free accessory upgrade on the wizards.com site for the book, though.

Sun Giant has LA +4.

[moritheil]

The party has a Werepanther Rogue, a Dwarf Fighter, an Elf Wizard, a Gnome Bard, a Human Fighter (who uses a bow), a Halfling Thief, an Elf Cleric and the aforementioned Sun Giant.

I'm astonished that the 14th level Elf Wizard does not outshine the Sun Giant; he should outshine the whole party if he chooses to do so.


Of course, a 14th level Fighter isn't by any standard a strong character at all, but I should expect that, with some optimization, throwing out 300 damage per round shouldn't be so hard to do with one (a 14th level Fighter that is).

Agreed, but maybe this one just trips all the time or something.


Hmm... a Sun Giant is supposed to have 37 Str, not 50-something. By 14th level, he could have a +6 item for Strength, if he wanted to shell out the cash, bringing him up to 43. I suppose he can probably Bull's Strength himself for another 4. This is sounding suspiciously like a homebrewed monster-level table gone awry.

If we accept that the 37 Str is the equivalent of Str 10 on a human - that is, average - then the Sun Giant has +26 to Str. A player could have put 18 in Str prior to racial modifications, which would bring it to 44. +6 str item brings it up to 50. But note that Bull's Strength (a +4 enhancement bonus) expressly does not stack with the +stat items based off of it (as they also give enhancement bonuses.) I suppose that at level 14, if he's taking stat bonuses as a level 14 character and not by hit dice as he's supposed to, that would also give him some extra points to put in.


We need much more information from you to give you better advice than just, "force him to make a new character," because right now, that's about the best advice we can give.

Oh no, I have to disagree here. I think there is no better advice than "force him to make a new character."

[Zeful]

Because a guy who ambushes a new to 3e DM with an overpowered progression at night in poor light conditions is definitely going to be open and honest about anything. If you buy that, I have several swamplands connected by famous bridges to sell you at a great price.

That still doesn't mean immediately aggroing him over this. If he's not willing to compromise then crack down, but until then, the assumption that he'll be reasonable should be encouraged to mitigate the player trying to break the game in the future.

[Lonely Tylenol]

The party has a Werepanther Rogue, a Dwarf Fighter, an Elf Wizard, a Gnome Bard, a Human Fighter (who uses a bow), a Halfling Thief, an Elf Cleric and the aforementioned Sun Giant.

What level is this party?


There isn't one. There's a free accessory upgrade on the wizards.com site for the book, though.

Sun Giant has LA +4.

Right. Sorry.

The upgrade's LA +4 is slightly different from the suggested "Sun Giants as Characters" entry in the MMII (which equates to LA +3), but I think it's actually more appropriate, given the high ability score adjustments. The Sun Giant character's savage progression should reflect at least one of these.

[Darth Stabber]

It's been my general experience that any race where RHD+LA>6 is asking for trouble in the first place, especially if it is significantly more RHD. Pixie usually works out just fine, as does ogre, but real giants, dragons, mindflayers and the like are usually too weak, but they you run into weird incidents where they are entirely too strong. SS is badly balanced, but if you end up with a giant that strong they clearly did the math wrong. Your GM needs to get ahold of the SS based progression, review it, and either ban the character, or more likely offer some pointers to tone it down. If you want, PM me the racial progression this player cooked up and the stats of a sungiant and I can probably fix it, though I can't promise that it will be perfect (infact it will likely be weak), but it will be inline with the standards set out in SS and not outshine the party.

[GhostwheelZ]

Note also that MM2 and MM3 were put out right in that place between 3.0 and 3.5 where no-one was sure as to where the point where things were balanced was at all, and that the sun giant in particular is one of the creatures that polymorphers like to exploit most, because of how strong and powerful it is for its HD.