any must have psionic manefestations

[Saito Takuji]

going as a psion//psychic warrior gesalt

kenetecist for the dicipline

just wondering on any must have powers to take for utility, have blasting down pact being a kenetecist

[Stegyre]

First suggestion: don't take utility powers.

As a psionic, your powers are limited (even for Psions), so choices are at a premium, and any power you choose should be one that (a) you expect to use frequently, and (b) you do not want to be without.

Unlike those caster-types, however, psionic characters have a wonderful option for utility powers and other I'll-only-use-this-once-in-a-blue-moon-but-it-will-be-golden-when-I-need-it powers: power stones (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/powerStones.htm).

Unlike their caster-equivalent scrolls, powerstones can be used repeatedly, without expending their stored powers, as long as (a) the power is already on your class list (and with psion + psychic warrior, that shouldn't exclude much), and (b) you use your own pp to manifest it. See Manifest an Unknown Power from Another's Powers Known (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#manifestAnUnknownPowerFr omAnothersPowersKnown).

[Saito Takuji]

okay that is kinda cool the power stone thing. but the main thing is i am starting at level 24 so have plenty of power choices.. then again power stones seem like the way to go regardless

[Lateral]

Sorry, but it doesn't work that way.


Upon successfully making contact with another willing psionic character or creature and learning what he can of one power in particular, the character can immediately attempt to manifest that power even if he doesn’t know it (and assuming he has power points left for the day).

Emphasis mine. You can only attempt to manifest powers from your own PP from another psionic character or creature, not from a power stone. The confusion comes from the first paragraph:

A psionic character can attempt to manifest a power from a source other than his own knowledge (usually a power stone or another willing psionic character).

Once contact is achieved, the character becomes aware of all the powers stored in the power stone or all the powers the other character knows up to the highest level of power the contactor knows himself.
The first paragraph, however, only details how to become aware of the powers the other person or power stone has; this is called 'making contact' for creatures and 'addressing' for power stones. After you address a power stone, what you do with it is what's given in the item entry for it; the third paragraph, the one which allows you to manifest a power from another source, only applies contact to characters or creatures, not addressing a power stone.

-------
As for must-have powers? Look no (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10238.0) further. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19537882/What_Is_the_Most_Powerful_Psionic_Power)

[Stegyre]

then again power stones seem like the way to go regardless
Exactly, although with over 56 powers known, you're going to have a serious challenge filling those slots. I'd recommend this thread (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19537882/What_Is_the_Most_Powerful_Psionic_Power) for its advice and ranking on useful psionic powers.


Sorry, but it doesn't work that way.

The first paragraph, however, only details how to become aware of the powers the other person or power stone has; this is called 'making contact' for creatures and 'addressing' for power stones. After you address a power stone, what you do with it is what's given in the item entry for it; the third paragraph, the one which allows you to manifest a power from another source, only applies contact to characters or creatures, not addressing a power stone.
Actually, it works exactly that way. All of this is in the context of "Manifest an Unknown Power from Another's Powers Known." Referencing power stones only to talk about how to identify the powers therein (something already treated in a separate section specifically on power stones) would be non-sensical.

Having already called out power stones as one instance of such a source in the first paragraph while discussing the first step of the process, it is not necessary to call them out again in each succeeding step. They have already been identified as part of the allowed group of sources for manifesting an unknown power from another source.

[Saito Takuji]

will have to check all that stuff out when not at work thanks


also probably going to ditch the psy-warrior shortly, but what to go is the main question, ahwell plenty of time to figure out

[Lateral]

Actually, it works exactly that way. All of this is in the context of "Manifest an Unknown Power from Another's Powers Known." Referencing power stones only to talk about how to identify the powers therein (something already treated in a separate section specifically on power stones) would be non-sensical.
That's not what it does, though. The part you're talking about says:

A psionic character can attempt to manifest a power from a source other than his own knowledge (usually a power stone or another willing psionic character)
It says nothing about how you do that, and doesn't have anything to do with the actual rules on how you can do it; furthermore, using a power stone the normal way certainly qualifies as "manifesting a power from a source other than his own knowledge".

Also, don't use 'it's nonsensical' as an argument. That's an opinion. I don't find it nonsensical to describe a rule in two places, if it's appropriate in both, and that has no bearing on the rules.


Having already called out power stones as one instance of such a source in the first paragraph while discussing the first step of the process, it is not necessary to call them out again in each succeeding step. They have already been identified as part of the allowed group of sources for manifesting an unknown power from another source.
That's not how D&D rules work. The first sentence has examples of things that are "manifesting a power from a source other than his own knowledge," which includes power stone use. The rules on doing what you're trying to do- that is, manifesting from another thing's powers known by making a Psicraft check and using your own PP- is covered in the third paragraph, which states that you can do this with creatures and characters. Not items. Specific trumps general, remember? If it doesn't say you can do that, then you can't do that, and itdoesn't say you can do that.

[Soranar]

psion's have 2 main swiss-army knife powers

- astral construct (with the boost construct feat)
- metamorphosis

other must have powers

-schism (extra actions)
-psionic lion's charge (pounce +)
-syncronicity (extra actions)
-temporal acceleration (extra actions)
-hustle (extra move actions)

situational life saver

-crystal shard (no save no PR, can kill just about anything)

I'd recommend an Ardent over a psion (Wisdom based) considering the Ardent's ACF ability to never lose focus with 1 mantle (take energy mantle and you will outblast a Psion easily) and the better synergy with psionic warrior (who gets you more powers known and extra feats)

[moritheil]

psion's have 2 main swiss-army knife powers

- astral construct (with the boost construct feat)
- metamorphosis


Second this. A properly used metamorphosis is the best power in the game for many, many levels after you get it.

[Flickerdart]

Fiery Discorporation is nice. Make sure that you can consistently make the save with the kind of damage output you tend to face, though. If you're dangerously near death, killing yourself to activate Discorporation will ensure a reasonably low save. Considering how many psionic powers have XP costs, Bend Reality's own XP cost doesn't quite matter as much when emulating stuff costs more XP anyway.

[Cor1]

So you're a Kineticist. Ok, the best discipline power is Telekinetic Sphere.
It's also the discipline that gives the psionic equivalent of Anti-Magic Field. Control Body is also fun, especially with Swift Concentration and a psicrystal...

But now that I'm reading the discipline-only list, I'm saddened that it's very limited, outside the invulnerable sphere and AMF : all for blasting, and badly. Power Resistance : Yes on everything... save Tornado Blast, yeah, that one's good. But 9th-level powers competing for your list include Reality Revision, so a 9d6 no save attack that allows a save for opponents lest they be thrown all around is a little weak compared to that. Better than everything else, since PR : No, but still...

The discipline list is underwhelming. You could do that with a couple of Expanded Knowledges and a better discipline. The best blasting power is available to all Psions anyway, it's Energy Ray, straightforward 1d6 per power point, ranged touch attach, Save : No, PR : Yes.
Or Crystal Shard. 1d6 piercing damage per power point, ranged touch attack, Save : No, PR : No. Twin+Maximize it and you don't need to pass DR.
Crystalstorm is nice too : lvl2, 3pp, ranged touch attack, PR : No, Save : Fort partial. It does 1d4 Constitution damage (augment by 2pp for +1 Con dmg), Fort saves + 2d4 slashing damage (augment by 1pp for +1d4).

Psions are very fun to play, but mine do leave the blasting to the Mailmen. My current one used to have the blasty powers, but reformatted them into moar buffs instead because it never got to blast anything, at all, ever. (The rest of the party are 3 gishes and 1 cleric variant, so I spent most combats giving them more actions than they can even use and staying unkillable.)

For utility, you should better look at the Nomad. Temporal Regression, Temporal Reiteration, various Teleports, Dimensional Anchor, Dream Travel, Banishment. Also, the Elocater prestige class, very fun. I've seen two play, they were great characters. One once summoned a God. (Yeah, it worked.)

Or the best Psion... the Shaper. Metacreativity is the most fun discipline to use in play, especially for utility. Take ranks in Knowledge (Engineering) and Craft (toolmaking) and you can simply conjure up any mechanical device you can imagine. (Major Creation, Fabricate.) "It's invulnerable to magic? Okay, I conjure up a catapult. Yes, I can. Masterwork, too. How? Extended Major Creation, focus, now plz protect me for ten rounds while I Rapid Fabricate, that's how." With Transdimensional Burrowing Major Creation, the mind-made rocks would phase through walls of force and hit targets in the Ethereal, Shadow and Astral.
And that's not even beginning to talk about the Astral Construct. That power is a hidden class feature. Just sayin'.

Telepaths are the most obvious Psions, the most stereotypical use of mind powers there exists. Such a shame that Telepathy [Mind-affecting] works so little as soon as Mind Blank. Or Undead. Or aligned Outsiders. Or Protection from <Alignment>. Wait, what? A 1st-level spell can block your whole discipline? Pass.

I haven't talked about the Seer. Well, it's because there is a 3,000gp item called a Third Eye of Sense, that can Scry at-will, and the power named Divination is on the general Psion/Wilder list. It's basically the only one you'll ever need... specializing in that seems a little overkill when the two best powers are available to everyone. But yeah, the capstone is Hypercognition + Metafaculty, and that auto-wins any puzzle or enigma, solving any knowledge problem as neatly as Teleport solves travel. "Limited then overkill", is the vibe I get from that one. Yes, it's great, but... auto-win, no save, I know the whole secret plan and its flaws, let's go guys.

As for the Egoist... It's the one I play. It's unkillable. Be a Elan Egoist and you're invulnerable. Literally, at level 17. "Timeless Shapechanged Body. I'm a dragon in GODMODE." (Two 9th lvl powers at lvl 17? That's PsyRef for you, lose one you don't use. There's no "powers known per power level" table.)


Best manifestation ever : Soul Crystal, 7th lvl, 13 power points, from Magic of Incarnum. It lets your party manifest your powers. Brokenly good, especially for self-buffing builds. It lets you give any power you can manifest to any creature. Metamorphosis for everyone! Yaaay! Any 1st-level Commoner can become a Young Adult White Dragon! Told you, it's broken. The crystals need to be covered in Quintessence to conserve them beyond 1hr/ML (*2 with Extend, but Quintessence is forever). So it has a hidden cost of a second, rarely-used power, if you want to exploit it. But it's better than good.

Most needed : Bestow Power and a trick to make it give you more power points than it costs. You NEVER have enough power points. (Especially if you play an Elan who tanks the damage from Overchannel by spending MORE power points.)

When you can get it, take Affinity Field. You'll never regret sharing your powers lvl 1-3 with your allies. "Anticipatory Strike, Synchronicity, Hustle" means "it's the party's turn, now. We'll roll Initiative later".

[Saito Takuji]

Most needed : Bestow Power and a trick to make it give you more power points than it costs. You NEVER have enough power points. (Especially if you play an Elan who tanks the damage from Overchannel by spending MORE power points.)




so hows this work then, am going human rather than an elan for the extra feat, but shouldn't be too terrible right?

[rot42]

so hows this work then, am going human rather than an elan for the extra feat, but shouldn't be too terrible right?

An Elan can spend power points to negate damage at a rate of 2 HP/pp (4 with a feat). This can be really nice with a d4 hit die, but spending your bonus feat to get a psicrystal and manifesting Share Pain on it is better, in my opinion. Ectoplasmic Repair (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827e) lets you patch up your pet rock when it needs it, although the wizard version is better.

You might also consider going Azurin (Magic of Incarnum) - they are human-like with a bonus feat and a point of essentia. This can be used to fuel the Midnight Augmentation feat, giving you a free 2d6 to your Energy Missile (amongst other even more fun possibilities).

[Saito Takuji]

so many decisions, and only a few days to decide, my first session with the char is on saturday, the incarnum race thing looks a good idea tho for sure

[Psyren]

You want good powers, do ya?

Read this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10238.0) and this. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19537882/What_Is_the_Most_Powerful_Psionic_Power)

[Particle_Man]

psion's have 2 main swiss-army knife powers

- astral construct (with the boost construct feat)


Also, kineticists get slightly more oomph out of astral constructs than even shapers do (a little more elemental damage if you select that for the Astral Construct you create).

[Lateral]

As for must-have powers? Look no (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10238.0) further. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19537882/What_Is_the_Most_Powerful_Psionic_Power)


You want good powers, do ya?

Read this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10238.0) and this. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19537882/What_Is_the_Most_Powerful_Psionic_Power)
Beatcha to it. :smallamused:

[Dairuga]

On the topic of power stones lasting forever; I do recall reading this:


Addressing the Stone
A power stone must be “addressed” before a character can use it or know exactly what power it contains. Doing this requires a successful Psicraft check (DC 15 + power level). Once a particular power stone has been addressed, it is not necessary to do so again. Addressing a power stone in advance lets a character proceed directly to the next step when the time comes to use it.

Using a stone’s stored power after addressing the stone requires holding the stone and willing the power’s manifestation, as if manifesting a power normally (a standard action). Activating a power stone is subject to disruption just as manifesting a power normally would be.
Additionally, the user must meet the following requirements.
The user must have the power on his or her class list.
The user must have the requisite key ability score.

If the user meets these requirements and has a manifester level at least equal to the power’s manifester level, she can automatically manifest the stored power without a check. If she meets both requirements but her own level is lower than the power stone’s manifester level, she has to make a manifester level check (1d20 + user’s level), against a DC equal to the power stone’s manifester level +1, to manifest the power successfully. On a failure, the user must succeed on a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid brainburn (see below). A natural roll of 1 on this check is always a failure.

Yes, adressing the stone, etc, etc. But another part about power stones.



A power stone stores a power (or collection of powers). A stored power can be used only once, “flushing” the stone. Using a power stone is basically like manifesting a power.

Does that not mean that a stone can, no matter if you address it and cast the power once; it will fade away? Or can you address the stone, and somehow not have the stone flushed?

[Cor1]

Power stones... they suck. Soul Crystals covered in Quintessence are better and cheaper.

Power stones require the user to have the imprinted power on their class list. Soul Crystals are usable by any creature.
Power stones require the user to have the required pirmary manifesting stat to manifest the imprinted power. Soul Crystals are usable by any creature.
Power stones require the user to have enough manifester levels to manifest imprinted power, or succeed on a ML check. Soul Crystals are usable by any creature.

Soul Crystals have a limited duration : 1h/manifester level. That's why you conserve them in a pocket filled with Quintessence. Being near a quantity of Quintessence hinders manifesting, so the pocket should be stored in a Handy Haversack, because "the quintessence is in another dimension" and thus not "near" you.

Having Quintessence manifested costs 280gp, but it doesn't go away. One Soul Crystal costs 910gp. That's 1190gp for one Power Stone equivalent. It's cheaper than a Power Stone of 7th level.

The max price would be for Soul Crystals of ML 17, 1190 gp, which would cost 1470gp once covered in Quintessence. It's STILL cheaper than a Power Stone of 7th level.

Psions with Imprint Power Stone would be better off learning Soul Crystal and reformatting the feat into Expanded Knowledge (Quintessence). It's more flexible, too.

[Saito Takuji]

wait why does manifesting quintessence cost money? am i not reading that power right?

[Cor1]

Oh. Right. I'm just calculating the price of the casting of the power as a service you can buy. So you could include it in your WBL : "Why yes, I happen to have some spell results in my equipment. I counted the price and all."

By comparisons with power stones, the powers have more uses, and by market prices, the powers are cheaper than the items, from 7th level and up. But lower-level powers may be used multiple times, or be augmented. A Soul Crystal is a fraction of a Psion, a Power Stone is just a Psionic Scroll.

[Urpriest]

wait why does manifesting quintessence cost money? am i not reading that power right?

He means having someone else manifest it for a fee.

[Cor1]

Yes. That.

It also means that selling Soul Crystals covered in Quintessence is insanely profitable. With Imprint Power Stone, you're limited by the 1,000 gp/day crafting limit, but with Soul Crystal, you're limited by your power point reserve and your recharge rate.

[Saito Takuji]

ahh, i see what you mean there, i will have to go with that whole plan for sure, if nothing else to save up for the various defensive and healing powers

[Reluctance]

About power stones: On the one hand, there's a quasierrata in ComPsi, P. 105 if you're curious, that spells out that power stones are wiped clean if you use them. Presumably, this is to clean up EPH/SRD rules that imply that they're not.

OTOH, if you wind up using that argument, you open yourself up to the fact that ComPsi quasierrata should actually be used, which brings you back to square one.

I'd warn you about quintessence shenanigans and thrown DMGs, but you're playing epic level gestalt. That's an invitation to go nuts.

[Saito Takuji]

yeah the gm likes having rather powerfull games, so the quintessence thing wouldn't be a huge game breaker.

one example starting stats as rolled by him are 24, 21, 19, 19, 18, 18. obviously using a much more powerfull method than the norm of 4d6 drop lowest, as well as slightly faster feat/ability score increases. so plenty of other ways to get high power thru crazy optimization, but hey as long as everyone is having fun its all good

[Cor1]

Also, there is a very funny rule interaction in the rules for manifesting, and Adrent is more broken than the designers intended.

There's that line that says "your manifester level is equal to the sum of levels you have in all manifesting classes".

Ardents choose two mantles at first level, then one more at second.

That means that with Ardent 2 / PsyWar 18, you gain the Ardent's full progression (in three mantles only, note). Fun trick : apply Practiced Manifester to Ardent, then add it to PsyWar and you're suddenly ML 24. You could do Ardent 4 / PsyWar 16 to get Practiced Manifester to each and then add them together again, for total ML 28.
The restriction in Practiced Manifester, that it can't push your ML higher than your HD, is completely negated by the basic rule that you apply your bonus in the order you see fit, thus before any result (of summing class ML + PM) goes over your HD.
Also, Ardents have 3/4 BAB, so if you do PsyWar 16/Ardent 4 you still get your full BAB, your 6th-level PsyWar powers, gain up to 8 Manifester Levels above class limit, and 9th-level powers in Ardent mantles - for the cost of ONE bonus feat.

Why do that? Well, so that you get three Mantles. Some powers are exclusive to Ardents, like Analyze Dweomer (Magic mantle). And if you take the Creation Mantle, you don't need to be a Psion Shaper, for Astral Construct and Minor/Major/True Creation. So you can be a Psion Nomad for Temporal Reiteration (Nomad list) on Timeless Body (Psion list) and be immune to YES for as long as you have power points, while summoning Astral Constructs and smacking everything around one hundred times per round.

[eggs]

There's that line that says "your manifester level is equal to the sum of levels you have in all manifesting classes".
Where's that line?

[Lateral]

There's that line that says "your manifester level is equal to the sum of levels you have in all manifesting classes".
There is no such line. Perhaps you are thinking of this line?

The variables of a power’s effect often depend on its manifester level, which is equal to your psionic class level.
'Psionic class level' is not the same as 'the sum of levels you have in all manifesting class level.' For a given power, your psionic class level is the number of levels you have in that psionic class, not all psionic classes.

You might also be thinking of the line in the Overchannel feat:

Normal
Your manifester level is equal to your total levels in classes that manifest powers.
But that's a case of faulty editing.

[Rubik]

My suggestion is that you take a [heart] dragonborn warforged shaper/3.5 constructor (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625b). Focus on using your metacreativity powers (insane flexibility, and you can use them tactically if you have the Linked Power feat to manifest powers with long manifesting times really fast), and the breath weapons provided by dragonborn and the Gemstone Breath power (from Dragon Magic). Since the latter is a psionic power that grants an honest-to-Ao breath weapon you can use metabreath and metapsionic feats (which stack!) on it. Overchannel for more fun.

That way you get long-term blasting (via the breath weapons) and massive utility in one package. Just remember that you're more of a problem solver and BFC specialist than anything, but your two available breath weapons (and the Energy Conversion power [metapsionic'd out the wazoo] combined with Energy Wall to recharge your laser beams) will let you blast for a long, long time for very few power points.

Just think outside the box (also see: Time Hop). It's insanely fun. Most fun I've ever had on a character, in fact.

[Rubik]

Also, this is a must-have spreadsheet if you use astral constructs. (http://www.sendspace.com/file/01p1rs)

FYI, I didn't make it.