Punpun?

[Dragrun]

What is punpun and how is he broken as all hell?

[rmg22893]

What is punpun and how is he broken as all hell?

He is a kobold that can essentially ascend himself to infinite levels of power at level 1.

[Gavinfoxx]

He's a Theoretical Optimization character that uses one of several tricks to basically win D&D, getting every useful ability in the game, and truly infinite or arbitrarily high or nigh infinite abilities.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869366/The_most_powerful_character._EVER.

[Dragrun]

so he's basically god in all sense of the word?

[hamishspence]

He can have vastly more power than any statted D&D god, I'm told.

[Dragrun]

**** even god got served on a silver platter? god damn

[Doug Lampert]

so he's basically god in all sense of the word?

Nah, he's a perfectly ordinary level 1 kobold paladin. Or he was about 1 minute ago when he started the routine.

NOW all of his ability scores and his HD are arbitrarily high, so is his divine rank, and he has every special ability, class feature, or feat ever published in any book or given to any monster.

But he's really just an innocent little Kobold.

Aren't game rules fun?

[Dragrun]

its gloriously fun just like having 2 different lvl 20 commoners and one of them optimizes the **** out of himself w/ leadership and wrecks the other guy

[Kish]

Don't forget the "only works in the Forgotten Realms" part.

[Dragrun]

or if your a DM that don't give a damn about settings then your game gets wrecked LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

[Supermouse]

Yes, but, as people said, is TO (Theoretical Optimization).

No sane person would do it on an game table, and, if someone did it, it would be all well to ban him from the game.

I mean, there can be some fun in optimizing your character so your spells run all day and you are more effective overall, but where's the fun in starting the game and saying "well, now I'm a lvl XXX god and I win the game LOLZ!"



So, yeah, great in paper, but not playable.

[Bovine Colonel]

or if your a DM that don't give a damn about settings then your game gets wrecked LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Keep in mind that Pun-Pun is a purely theoretical construct. Playing him in an actual game is something we call a jerk move.

[Piggy Knowles]

Basically, it abuses the poorly worded "Manipulate Form" ability of the Sarruhk. I doubt it was ever really intended for anything but Sarruhk, an almost dead race, to ever get access to the ability, so the designers probably didn't sit down and think out all of the ramifications of it. It just seemed like a cool thing to give to this mythical shape-shifting creator race...

Anyhow, the upshot of it all is that, through various machinations, a "scaled one" (kobolds count as scaled ones) gets access to Manipulate Form and finds a way to use it on himself (the classic way involves a serpent familiar). It then uses this poorly worded ability to give itself any and every ability in the game. Ever. If it has been printed, Pun-Pun can do it. The reason why it even beats the "gods" is because there is no god that has any ability that Pun-Pun does not also have. He has all of them.

[The Glyphstone]

Don't forget the "only works in the Forgotten Realms" part.

There is a Pseudo-pun build out there that does it without Sarrukhs, but it's much more complicated and much higher level.

[Emperor Tippy]

There is a Pseudo-pun build out there that does it without Sarrukhs, but it's much more complicated and much higher level.
Nah, you can do it at level 2 if you ignore WBL and level 4 with WBL.

Step 1: Buy/get a scroll of Shapechange.
Step 2: Have the feats Magical Aptitude and Skill Focus: Use Magical Device.
Step 3: Have 5 ranks in Decipher Script, Spellcraft, and Use Magical Device.
Step 4: Buy a masterwork tool of UMD.
Step 5: Pay a cleric to cast Guidance of the Avatar on you (+20 to a single skill check). That totals +36 (+20+2+3+2+2+2+5) on the UMD check.
Step 6: Use your scroll of Shapechange (you auto-succeed).
Step 7: Shapechange into a Zodar.
Step 8: Use your Wish (Su) ability to create a Scroll of Shapechange at CL 1 million.
Step 9. Shapechange into a Lilitu.
Step 10: Use your CL 1 million scroll of Shapechange.
Step 11: Shapechange into a Zodar.
Step 12: Use your Wish ability to create a Scroll of Ice Assassin of an Elder Brain with the powers Fusion, Astral Seed, and Greater Metamorphosis as powers known.
Step 13: Shapechange into a Lilitu.
Step 14: Use your Ice Assassin Scroll to create an Ice Assassin of the Elder Brain.
Step 15: Order your Ice Assassin to use it's fusion ability to combine with you and relinquish control of the combined form to you.
Step 16: Use Astral Seed.
Step 17: Kill yourself.
Step 18: Recreate your body.
Step 19: Use Grater Metamorphosis to change into a Zodar.
Step 20: Wish up a scroll of Ice Assassin of a deity with the salient divine ability
Alter Reality.
Step 21: Use your Item Use ability to use your IA scroll.
Step 22: Use Fusion to combine with your Ice Assassin of a deity.
Step 23: Use Astral Seed.
Step 24: Kill yourself.
Step 25: Reform your body.
Step 26: Use Alter Reality and Win.

From level 2 (or 4) onwards you can get every ability in the game and it requires nothing setting specific.

[Saito Takuji]

i actually did play pun-pun once, but didn't feel like breaking the game overly so so only really rasied ability scores a bit, and gave myself a few flavor abilities, eventually the GM had the gods grant me divinity so they could apply thier laws to me, and i had to teach them the same stuff. he did not allow for the cheese of upping divine rank thru ice assassian or any other means tho

[The Glyphstone]

Nah, you can do it at level 2 if you ignore WBL and level 4 with WBL.

Step 1: Buy/get a scroll of Shapechange.
Step 2: Have the feats Magical Aptitude and Skill Focus: Use Magical Device.
Step 3: Have 5 ranks in Decipher Script, Spellcraft, and Use Magical Device.
Step 4: Buy a masterwork tool of UMD.
Step 5: Pay a cleric to cast Guidance of the Avatar on you (+20 to a single skill check). That totals +36 (+20+2+3+2+2+2+5) on the UMD check.
Step 6: Use your scroll of Shapechange (you auto-succeed).
Step 7: Shapechange into a Zodar.
Step 8: Use your Wish (Su) ability to create a Scroll of Shapechange at CL 1 million.
Step 9. Shapechange into a Lilitu.
Step 10: Use your CL 1 million scroll of Shapechange.
Step 11: Shapechange into a Zodar.
Step 12: Use your Wish ability to create a Scroll of Ice Assassin of an Elder Brain with the powers Fusion, Astral Seed, and Greater Metamorphosis as powers known.
Step 13: Shapechange into a Lilitu.
Step 14: Use your Ice Assassin Scroll to create an Ice Assassin of the Elder Brain.
Step 15: Order your Ice Assassin to use it's fusion ability to combine with you and relinquish control of the combined form to you.
Step 16: Use Astral Seed.
Step 17: Kill yourself.
Step 18: Recreate your body.
Step 19: Use Grater Metamorphosis to change into a Zodar.
Step 20: Wish up a scroll of Ice Assassin of a deity with the salient divine ability
Alter Reality.
Step 21: Use your Item Use ability to use your IA scroll.
Step 22: Use Fusion to combine with your Ice Assassin of a deity.
Step 23: Use Astral Seed.
Step 24: Kill yourself.
Step 25: Reform your body.
Step 26: Use Alter Reality and Win.

From level 2 (or 4) onwards you can get every ability in the game and it requires nothing setting specific.

And I knew you'd be along to explain it.:smallbiggrin: I stand by what I said though - that is significantly more complicated than 'turn into Sarrukh, win D&D", and even level 2 is a 100% increase in the time it takes to begin.

[moritheil]

Don't forget the "only works in the Forgotten Realms" part.

Technically FR has Ao the Overpower, who busts gods down to scut duty when they try to pull crap - so the DM should just rule that he shows up right as the process starts and says, "Um, no."

It is what he's there in the setting for.

[NamelessNPC]

I'm pretty sure there HAS to be something wrong with step 8

[Killer Angel]

No sane person would do it on an game table, and, if someone did it, it would be all well to ban him from the game.


My cousin did it. He gave a copy of the "basic" sheet to the DM, which didn't realize the thing.
PunPun ascended during the first gameplay (introduction of the campaign). The DM's face was priceless.

Then my cousin put out his real character. It was a good laugh.

[Cor1]

I'm pretty sure there HAS to be something wrong with step 8

Well, Wish can "Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item." That's all there is to that one. It's not forbidden.

I wonder why it needs a Caster Level of 1,000,000 though.

[Andvare]

The Pun Pun way is vastly superior to any other build, as he actually uses one of the wishes for something constructive, as explained in step 4 of how to benefit the whole of mankind (koboldkind?):


Use the Candle to Gate in an Efreeti. He is under your control so you will command him to grant you three wishes. The first is to Plane Shift to the Astral Plane. The second is for another Candle of Invocation. The third is to stop George Lucas from moving forward on Indiana Jones 5.

[Soranar]

pun pun can always be stopped by a DM through various means:

-Pazuzu refuses to help you
-the sarrukh is banned
-some book in the combo is banned
-etc.

no matter how broken a build, a DM is the all powerful entity that can always say: rocks fall, everyone dies

[truemane]

no matter how broken a build, a DM is the all powerful entity that can always say: rocks fall, everyone dies

That's why it's called Theoretical Optimization. Clearly the Dm can do what he or she likes, but the fun of TO is seeing what can be done, by specific and strict interpretation of the "Rules as Written."

DM intervention isn't really relevant to discussions involving RAW.

[Soranar]

Always bugs me to see a build that entails talking to a deity (pazuzu) and just hope it works. Thats why RAW alone is never enough (for the level 1 version anyway).

[2xMachina]

Pazuzu is basically the Devil*. Make a pact with him, for some stuff, and in return, be (more) evil. His sthick is to give wishes willy nilly and then start to disappear when you really need a wish granted.

*actually a Demon prince.

[Doug Lampert]

I'm pretty sure there HAS to be something wrong with step 8

There is, it's horribly broken that spell-like abilities get to ignore components and that there are creatures with spell-like wish. The combination is a gross and almost unforgivable mistake that I spotted as horribly broken partway through my first readthrough of 3.0 many years ago, and it's still in 3.5 and pathfinder.

Step 8 is a gross abuse of this silly and insanely stupid design mistake by WotC (deliberately and with forethought and foreknowledge perpetuated by Piazio), that's what's wrong with it. The rules it uses aren't just broken, they're obviously broken.

But ruleswise it's fine. It follows the game rules.

PunPun, in all incarnations, is a result of abusing things that allow you to get more power out of something than you put in.

Gate (level 9 spell) lets you call and control things with multiple level 9 spells of their own, including gate. This is broken, it BEGS for infinite loops.

Shapechange (level 9 spell) lets you become something that gets its own level 9 spells, and access them. This is broken, it BEGS for infinite loops.

Spell-like wish can create lasting things of great value, and has no real cost to the user since there's no component costs for spell-likes. That an Efreet can't wish on his own behalf isn't a meaningful limit, Efreets are intelligent, capable of honorable behavior, live in a large multiracial city, and engage in trade. This is broken, it destroys the entire setting as a game setting prior to the start of the game if you follow the implications AND it begs for infinite loops.

PunPun is the result of looking at some or all of these infinite loops, and finding ways to exploit them. The "challenge" is not to carry out the loop, that's fairly trivial when you have unlimited level 9 spells not bound by components. The challenge is to initiate the loop at as low a level as possible without depending on anything not explicite in the rules or setting (so for instance the Pazuzu dependent builds usually have enough knowledge, the planes, to know that Pazuzu will grant them wishes on a take 10, similarly he's a paladin because Pazuzu is pretty well stated in his fluff to always give paladins a first wish if they want one since he wants to corrupt them badly).

But the early entry tricks are just that, early entry tricks. The key is that there are spells that take the input of one level 9 slot and a bit of components, and output a larger number of level 9 slots and no need to worry about components on those slots. Given this you can do anything level 9 slots unlimited by components can do, and it turns out that level 9 slots unlimited by components can do anything.

Candles of Invocation and scrolls of shapechange and the like are mearly cheap ways to get access to one of the broken level 9 spells to start the loop.

The problem is that the spells used (especially as spell-like abilities) are simply broken.

DougL

[marcielle]

You might also want to look up Wightopocalypse, Ubercharger,and Pazuzu. Usage or even MENTION of these to a DM will generally result in dirty looks and the mass application of gravity and inertia.

[kardar233]

If using Pazuzu is out, I'm a fan of the slightly older level 5 version, with a Divine Minion Wizard1/MoMF3. You don't need Pazuzu, as you can just get Assume Supernatural Ability and Wild Shape into a Sarrukh.

[marcielle]

Or, you know, Jump so awesomely that Zeus himself comes down to give you a couple of divine ranks and be your BFF. And if anything goes wrong, just get your Thrallherd friend to wake his warforged and reset the last hundred years or so.:smallbiggrin:

[Doug Lampert]

You might also want to look up Wightopocalypse, Ubercharger,and Pazuzu. Usage or even MENTION of these to a DM will generally result in dirty looks and the mass application of gravity and inertia.

Wightopocalypse and similar from other rapid spawning undead is sufficiently obvious that I houseruled prior to the start of my first 3.0 game (right along with components for spell-likes, but I missed the implications of Gate being calling and of Candle of Invocation existing).

Amusingly I later noticed that I had dealt with the spawniing undead, but I hadn't done anything to stop Slaads from taking over the multiverse with their spawn ability. So I made that a (small) part of the plotline.

AFAICT Ubercharger is simply a way for melee to get nice things, and this offends some people. A high level fighter in earlier editions could basically one-shot Lolth if he got close enough, and he didn't need to be charging. A similar ability in 3.x does not offend me.

Pazuzu is mearly a way to get access to a level 9 spell-like a bit early, since there are plenty of other ways in the rules it's no more broken than anything else involving wish as a spell-like. (Which is to say horribly broken, but the broken part isn't Pazuzu, it's the fairly common ability they've given him.)

Note that 3.5 took the one break 3.0 had on spell-likes when it changed how production of magic items via wish worked (3.0 it was a hard limit at 15,000 GP, 3.5 its an extra component cost based on the value of the item). Frank and K's "wish economy" articles are clearly using the 3.0 version since they need there to be SOME limit for their ideas to work.

[moritheil]

You might also want to look up Wightopocalypse, Ubercharger,and Pazuzu. Usage or even MENTION of these to a DM will generally result in dirty looks and the mass application of gravity and inertia.

I've never had a problem with Wightpocalypse, as it follows quite naturally from the negative energy rules. Most of my PCs took extra pains to not let it happen; they were afraid of me throwing the campaign into Zombie Apocalypse mode, which would not really let them play out the characters they wanted in the campaign they wanted.

[marcielle]

Those, along with jumplomancer and 'The Dream of Metal' were just examples of things that shouldn't be tried for being game derailing, except ubercharger( full max damage and nothing else build), which simply dangerously overspecializes you.

I brought them up because they were HELLUVA funny. 30 the highest hp in the game in one attack, turning people into fanatics with a longjump, etc.

[The Underlord]

Nah, he's a perfectly ordinary level 1 kobold paladin. Or he was about 1 minute ago when he started the routine.

NOW all of his ability scores and his HD are arbitrarily high, so is his divine rank, and he has every special ability, class feature, or feat ever published in any book or given to any monster.

But he's really just an innocent little Kobold.

Aren't game rules fun?
Why paladin may I ask?

[Sucrose]

Why paladin may I ask?

Paladins are stated in Pazuzu's fluff to be especially interesting to the demon, pretty much ensuring that they will be granted the wish that they want.

[Rubik]

Those, along with jumplomancer and 'The Dream of Metal' were just examples of things that shouldn't be tried for being game derailing, except ubercharger( full max damage and nothing else build), which simply dangerously overspecializes you.

I brought them up because they were HELLUVA funny. 30 the highest hp in the game in one attack, turning people into fanatics with a longjump, etc.If you think those are bad-arse, what about the arseplomancer?

[Alleran]

Paladins are stated in Pazuzu's fluff to be especially interesting to the demon, pretty much ensuring that they will be granted the wish that they want.
Not just that. I believe (haven't checked) that it's explicitly spelled out in Pazuzu's rules that he will go out of his way to make sure the first wish asked of him by a paladin will not have any downsides.

Which is just asking to be abused.

[2xMachina]

Not just that. I believe (haven't checked) that it's explicitly spelled out in Pazuzu's rules that he will go out of his way to make sure the first wish asked of him by a paladin will not have any downsides.

Which is just asking to be abused.

Only downside: Alignment shift: LG -> NG/LN. You fall.

But hey, you're now PunPun, you can re-add paladin class features.

[Rejusu]

There is, it's horribly broken that spell-like abilities get to ignore components and that there are creatures with spell-like wish. The combination is a gross and almost unforgivable mistake that I spotted as horribly broken partway through my first readthrough of 3.0 many years ago, and it's still in 3.5 and pathfinder.

Step 8 is a gross abuse of this silly and insanely stupid design mistake by WotC (deliberately and with forethought and foreknowledge perpetuated by Piazio), that's what's wrong with it. The rules it uses aren't just broken, they're obviously broken.

The thing is you say all this like it's a problem. The beauty of D&D is that there can be so many broken rules and yet you can still have perfectly balanced games because the DM is always going to be above the rules. All that needs to happen to stop Pun Pun is Pazuzu shows up and simply denies his wish. Or the DM can just stop Pun Pun being even brought to the table. Or rocks could fall and everybody dies.

Personally I think broken and unbalanced elements keeps things interesting, and unlike games with fixed rules the broken elements don't have to ruin the game. Plus balance is utterly relative anyway. What's balanced for one party isn't balanced for another. A Psychic warrior may be overpowered in a party full of tier 5's but underpowered in a party of tier 1's.

[Alleran]

All that needs to happen to stop Pun Pun is Pazuzu shows up and simply denies his wish. Or the DM can just stop Pun Pun being even brought to the table. Or rocks could fall and everybody dies.
Or Pun-Pun has already ascended, and stands ready with his Overgod status to ensure that a second Pun-Pun cannot happen, preserving the balance of the universe. As a result, if somebody attempts to begin the ascension status, Pun-Pun immediately prevents it from happening.

Of course, since Ao is king in Forgotten Realms, and since Pun-Pun was/is native to Toril, Ao can stop Pun-Pun in the first place, so it will never become an issue.

[Togo]

I'm not convinced that step 8 or step 12 are RAW. Wish can create magical items, yes. There is nothing to say that it can create ANY magical item, and numerous counterexamples within the rules, such as magic items that require numerous other constructions requirements on top of wish.

Similarly, there is no such things as 'a scroll of Ice Assassin of Deity X' becuase the spell is driven by the material component - a peice of the person you're duplicating. There is no reason to believe that wish can even do that.

And there is certainly no reason to believe that deities are physical objects in any case, and thus no reason to believe that deities are valid target for the spell.

Pun-Pun is a great idea, but strictly speaking, I wouldn't call it RAW.

If you think creating Pun-Pun is fun working out how to kill him once he's created is even more fun. One method involved populating the universe with a near-infinite series of duplicate Pun-Puns. Wightapocalypse just doesn't seem scary after that.

[GnomeGninjas]

I'm not convinced that step 8 or step 12 are RAW. Wish can create magical items, yes. There is nothing to say that it can create ANY magical item, and numerous counterexamples within the rules, such as magic items that require numerous other constructions requirements on top of wish.

Similarly, there is no such things as 'a scroll of Ice Assassin of Deity X' becuase the spell is driven by the material component - a peice of the person you're duplicating. There is no reason to believe that wish can even do that. One of the uses of wish is to "Create a magical item" it gives no limits on what it can be

And there is certainly no reason to believe that deities are physical objects in any case, and thus no reason to believe that deities are valid target for the spell. In Deities and Demigods the deities presented there are not incorporal. Also Eschew Materials

Pun-Pun is a great idea, but strictly speaking, I wouldn't call it RAW.

If you think creating Pun-Pun is fun working out how to kill him once he's created is even more fun. One method involved populating the universe with a near-infinite series of duplicate Pun-Puns. Wightapocalypse just doesn't seem scary after that.

Responses in bold.

[Alleran]

If you think creating Pun-Pun is fun working out how to kill him once he's created is even more fun.
Why? It's impossible.

[Golden Ladybug]

Why? It's impossible.

And why would that stop us from trying? Trying to do impossible things tends to get people thinking in odd ways. The Omniscificer or the Terminator were both cool ideas designed to beat Pun-Pun, and they probably wouldn't have come to light otherwise.

The implications of their methods for defeating Pun-Pun being hacking the universe for infinite knowledge and time travel is something I will make no comment on :smallwink:

[Rejusu]

Why? It's impossible.

People thought it was impossible for a lowly level 1 Kobold Paladin to gain limitless power too. Didn't stop it happening.

[Prime32]

Or Pun-Pun has already ascended, and stands ready with his Overgod status to ensure that a second Pun-Pun cannot happen, preserving the balance of the universe. As a result, if somebody attempts to begin the ascension status, Pun-Pun immediately prevents it from happening.

Of course, since Ao is king in Forgotten Realms, and since Pun-Pun was/is native to Toril, Ao can stop Pun-Pun in the first place, so it will never become an issue.Clearly Ao was the first Pun-Pun.

[prufock]

There is, it's horribly broken that spell-like abilities get to ignore components and that there are creatures with spell-like wish.

Shapechange doesn't grant Spell-likes, it grants Supernaturals. Zodars have Wish as a (Su) ability, so no problem there. However the (Su) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbilities) part of the SRD doesn't mention ignoring the XP cost, while the (Sp) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities) part does.

Is there a ruling somewhere that (Su) abilities ignore XP costs? I'm not quite clear on that one.

[Alleran]

And why would that stop us from trying? Trying to do impossible things tends to get people thinking in odd ways. The Omniscificer or the Terminator were both cool ideas designed to beat Pun-Pun, and they probably wouldn't have come to light otherwise.
Well, the only way you're going to do it is with time travel shenanigans, so you can go back before he ascends and kill him then (killing Pun-Pun is only possible before he ascends - the Omniscifier does it before the 5th level variant ascends, but can't do it before the 1st level one does, because before the Omniscifier reaches the level where he can kill the 5th level Pun-Pun, the 1st level Pun-Pun has ascended).

You only have a certain number of rounds in which (at level one) you can kill him before he's beyond your ability to kill. Basically, as I understand it, you need to infinite-loop him before he can infinite-loop the universe.

I'd certainly be interested in seeing if it can be done, but I really don't think it can.

[Alienist]

Eschew materials clearly wouldn't apply to getting a piece of your deities body.

Relics like that would certainly have a market price well above 1gp.

There are numerous historical examples to back that up. Any kind of deity with an active following is going to have a price for their body parts well above 1gp.

Please don't tell me that because it doesn't have a listed price it is free. Faerun doesn't have a listed price either, but if you listed it as part of your level 1 character's gear I'd suggest you were cheating. Or if you started the game at level 1 with all 10 Orbs of Dragonkind, and again tried to claim that it was legit because their price was 0/nil/null/unlisted/undefined, I'd call you a cheater. "The rules don't say you can't do it" might be the defence (it is a common claim when someone is doing something illogical and outlandish that goes against all common sense), but that doesn't work either, D&D is an exception driven rules system. Hence what is allowed is prescriptive - e.g. the rules say you can do X, hence you can do X. If your prestige class is the only place where it says that X can be done, then other classes or prestige classes cannot do X. Trying to 'rules by omission' something into existence is going against the fundamental tenets of the game. But, of course the more fundamental tenet is that if the DM allows it, it's all good.

As a secondary objection, I think that the people who claim that Pazuzu MUST exist and MUST give you the wish you're looking for and that it is perfectly good RAW, do not understand RAW the same way I understand RAW. My understanding of that content is that it is (a) optional (and not the player's choice, but the DMs) and (b) nowhere does it say he must do exactly what the player wants. Hence it cannot be RAW since it isn't actually written anywhere.

A similar objection can be raised about the ascension method which required going backwards and forwards between yourself and your familiar using the Saruhks ability on each other. Why is the familiar still co-operating after it has gained the power of a dragon? The familiar is not your Thrall-like mind slave. The DM might (as a convenience and a short-cut) let you play both yourself and your familiar (or animal companion), but by RAW I am unaware of anything that requires them to follow your every command. As I understand it, they are quite capable of just saying "no".

[Togo]

One of the uses of wish is to "Create a magical item" it gives no limits on what it can be

Removing DM fiat doesn't mean you can reinterpret a flexible ability to anything you want, you're still subject to reasonable limits. In the absence of a DM, use objective criteria, and justify them. Hence my point about numerous counterexamples.

Those same counterexamples make it quite clear that wish, when used to make items, is not sufficient for the more powerful items. They're also RAW, and a claim that you can just wish for an infinitely powerful items contradicts them.

Wish has to have limits, otherwise you could just wish yourself into being Pun-Pun, and ignore all the remaining steps. Not really in the spirit of the challenge.


Why? It's impossible.

How is it impossible? We've already established that the game world contains a Pun-Pun, which means we've established an awful lot is possible. Hard, I'll grant you, but I really don't think you can design a pun-pun that's literally impossible to take down without opening the door to rules contradictions.

I cateloged four different approaches for killing Pun-Pun. SLAP, timetravel, Arbitrarily Large Events, and Reality Hacking.

SLAP is Statistical Likelihood of Alternative Pun-Pun. Basically, any universes that contains a pun-pun could also contain alternative creatures of similar power, either other builds, or just other pun-puns.

Timetravel generally exploits the fascinating prospect that anyone who travels back in time to stop pun-pun will arrive at exactly the same time that pun-pun does. There is no such thing as timetravelling 'first'.

Arbitrarily Large Events exploit features of the setting that are larger or more powerful than the inhabitants of it. Anything involving cracking the crystal sphere containing pun-pun, dead-magic zones, the far Realms or the Spire of concordant opposition all fall into this category.

Reality Hacking is the category for anything that starts literally trying to take apart the universe. Not my favourite category, but several approaches attempt to use it to bypass any invulnerablility that pun-pun might claim.

[Doug Lampert]

One of the uses of wish is to "Create a magical item" it gives no limits on what it can be

Removing DM fiat doesn't mean you can reinterpret a flexible ability to anything you want, you're still subject to reasonable limits. In the absence of a DM, use objective criteria, and justify them. Hence my point about numerous counterexamples.

There is a limit given, clearly IN THE SPELL, it costs extra XP to make an item. Shame that spell-likes ignore XP costs.

You can't say there aren't any reasonable limits in the ability, because the ability is clearly limited, cast wish as a spell and you can't make something costing too much because of the XP component, but it's perfectly ballanced and fine to allow wish to create a level 1,000,000 scroll, there's no ballance problem at all, and it isn't open ended, because the many millions of XP needed will stop it from working.

Sadly the rules don't say, "and if you do it as a spell-like extra limits magically appear", and they do say you don't need components, including XP components. So appearently it's "reasonable" that wish cast as a spell can do something that wish as a spell-like can't.

If I'm playing in your game, could you please inform me of what these differences are? Of how spell-likes differ from the spell they emulate.

Note that this is actually a fairly easy house rule, but it is a house rule. The game rules are broken.

So, if you're imposing "reasonable" limits on item creation, above and beyond those given for a listed safe and reliable use of the spell, what are those limits?

The fact that a DM can fix it doesn't mean there's not a problem. The fact that you NEED to appeal to the DM to fix it indicates that you AGREE that the rules are broken.


The thing is you say all this like it's a problem. The beauty of D&D is that there can be so many broken rules and yet you can still have perfectly balanced games because the DM is always going to be above the rules. All that needs to happen to stop Pun Pun is Pazuzu shows up and simply denies his wish. Or the DM can just stop Pun Pun being even brought to the table. Or rocks could fall and everybody dies.

Personally I think broken and unbalanced elements keeps things interesting, and unlike games with fixed rules the broken elements don't have to ruin the game. Plus balance is utterly relative anyway. What's balanced for one party isn't balanced for another. A Psychic warrior may be overpowered in a party full of tier 5's but underpowered in a party of tier 1's.

The problem is not that you can ascend PunPun, no DM will allow that, it's that virtually EVERY individual step in making PunPun is giving an output greater than the input. So they are ALL, each individual step, broken.

PunPun ascentions are lists of broken abilities, and they're not neccessarily individually things a GM will houserule the first time they come up, many are quite clearly rules as written, and they appear to be using the spells exactly the way you'd expect them to be used.

This is bad. There is no level of play where this is ballanced or good. Because either the DM allows spells to work as they are clearly written to work, and the game breaks under an infinite loop, or he applies some sort of "common sense" where the spells working is unknowable to the players, because it isn't by the rules if the GM thinks it's "abusive", and the GM can't actually articulate at which point it becomes "abusive".

It's abusive the third time you do it, so magic changes the more you use it, does this apply to fireball too, or only to spells the GM doesn't like? And can you please inform me as a player which spells you don't like PRIOR to my building a sorcerer?

Is having an Effreet wish for a ring of three wishes abusive? Almost certainly.

How about a candle of invocation? Which is worth substantially less than a gemstone you could make with with. Doesn't seem like it. But a candle of invocation is effectively a cheaper ring of three wishes unless the GM deliberately nerfs it by ignoring the clear wording of the rules.

[prufock]

There is a limit given, clearly IN THE SPELL, it costs extra XP to make an item. Shame that spell-likes ignore XP costs.
As I said before, I think Zodars have Wish as a Supernatural, not Spell-like. Still no clarification on whether Su abilities ignore xp costs. The Supernatural ability section doesn't specifically say that they DO, though the Spell-like ability section does. This indicates to me that Supernatural Wish DOES cost XP.

Though an Efreet has it as a Spell-like.

[Dragrun]

Thank you playground I finally found out the power of this beast.


Might build him to **** with my group.......

MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[The Glyphstone]

Thank you playground I finally found out the power of this beast.


Might build him to **** with my group.......

MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Well, be ready to find a new group afterwards.

[TheGeckoKing]

Eschew materials clearly wouldn't apply to getting a piece of your deities body.

Relics like that would certainly have a market price well above 1gp.

Well, the SRD would disagree on this one:


Material (M)
A material component is one or more physical substances or objects that are annihilated by the spell energies in the casting process. Unless a cost is given for a material component, the cost is negligible. Don’t bother to keep track of material components with negligible cost. Assume you have all you need as long as you have your spell component pouch.

I know of no given costs for a deity's eyelash, so the rules say the price is negligible.

As for killing Pun-Pun, maybe use Travel Through Time to go back and kill Pun-Pun? There's also using Ice Assassin right back at him, having a Phane make a Past Time Duplicate of him or using Sarrukhs to create a Godkiller Legion of Scalykind to kill him.

[Golden Ladybug]

As a secondary objection, I think that the people who claim that Pazuzu MUST exist and MUST give you the wish you're looking for and that it is perfectly good RAW, do not understand RAW the same way I understand RAW. My understanding of that content is that it is (a) optional (and not the player's choice, but the DMs) and (b) nowhere does it say he must do exactly what the player wants. Hence it cannot be RAW since it isn't actually written anywhere.

Well, actually, Pazuzu does exist in the Forgotten Realms, and his fluff dictates that yes, he will grant you a Wish if you intone his name three times. It also says that he goes out of his way to make sure that the Wish goes as planned when, say, a Paladin asks for one. Paladin Souls are the hardest to corrupt after all, and by making sure they get what they wanted, they're more likely to come back for more. Paladin Souls are tasty.

But, yeah, that's Pazuzu's MO. He wants to corrupt the Lawful and the Good, and he does that by granting them favours, especially Wishes. That is what Pazuzu, as an entity, does.

The 1st Level Pun-Pun is a Paladin in the Realms. He gets a Wish from Pazuzu, no questions asked.

Now, if as a DM you decide that Pazuzu acts differently in your game, or doesn't exist at all, that's fine, but the default behaviour of Pazuzu is to go along with this.


A similar objection can be raised about the ascension method which required going backwards and forwards between yourself and your familiar using the Saruhks ability on each other. Why is the familiar still co-operating after it has gained the power of a dragon? The familiar is not your Thrall-like mind slave. The DM might (as a convenience and a short-cut) let you play both yourself and your familiar (or animal companion), but by RAW I am unaware of anything that requires them to follow your every command. As I understand it, they are quite capable of just saying "no".

Well, effectively, the Familiar is an extension of the Wizard's soul. The Familiar and the Wizard are almost the same being. So why would it say no? They're not automatically subservient to you, but they're an extension of your being; why would they say no? What reason would they to try and stop you from gaining power? They're you, too!

[marcielle]

Pun-Pun has been RAW debated for as long as it has existed, I don't think we're gonna be finding problems at this point. Biggest problem I can see with that is the Paladin code of never willingly ascociating with Evil and Pazuzu is well, Pazuzu. Meaning, the second he asks for a wish he falls and Pazuzu no longer has a reason to play nice. I suppose you could FORCE a Paladin to make the appropriate wish without him falling.

[Golden Ladybug]

Well, based on Pazuzu's fluff, I'd say that the Paladin falling doesn't change his attitude towards them. Why would he go out of his way to make sure the Wish went exactly as the Paladin wanted it to if trying to get Pazuzu's aid is enough to damn that Paladin?

I suppose that, as a Paladin who has willingly consorted with Evil, you could go get an Atonement spell. Pazuzu's angle might be that yes, even though they fall for getting in touch with him, as long as he makes coming back for more wishes seem more attractive then atoning and going back to the straight and narrow, then that Paladin's soul is within his grasp.

[Calanon]

Technically FR has Ao the Overpower, who busts gods down to scut duty when they try to pull crap - so the DM should just rule that he shows up right as the process starts and says, "Um, no."

It is what he's there in the setting for.

Actually Ao was placed in the Forgotten Realm setting strictly as a Representative of the DM (Ao is described as the ultimate creator of the Realm and without him the Realm cannot exist... So basically a DM)

...and as a Side note: Ao has never personally appeared on Abeir-Toril... Ever (Well in recorded history) so it would be more likely that he sends a Greater Deity as his herald to go tell them "Yeah, not in my Crystal Sphere..." and just have them Divine Sunder the little "Godling" :smalltongue:

[hamishspence]

...and as a Side note: Ao has never personally appeared on Abeir-Toril... Ever (Well in recorded history)

He appears to Elminster in the Shadow of the Avatar trilogy- book 2: Cloak of Shadows.

However that's by taking Elminster to the Flame Void, rather than coming to him.

After Elminster's done what Ao asked, they meet again in Elminster's Safehold (which as I recall is in Realmspace but not on Toril- it's on one of the other planets in the system and is where Elminster goes when his Elminster's Evasion contingency spell is triggered).

Elminster, afterward:

"Foosh!" he said in shocked tones. "A "be a good boy" lecture and half my wine gone! I don't think I can afford to entertain Overgods!"

In Victor Milan's War in Tethyr, the orog (Underdark orc) paladin's prayer to Torm to restore the life of someone slain during their battles with Ao cultists is answered by Ao:


Shield of Innocence took the bloodstained amulet from about his chest and laid it on Stillhawk's unmoving breast. "O, Torm," he prayed, "O, True and Brave, please listen! Your dog begs you, do not let this soul slip out of the world. No-one is truer and braver than he, and we have-"

He coughed up blood. "We have not enough hands to fight the evil that waits below. I know ... I have not served you long enough to earn the power to bring him back. And I won't ever, for this day I die. But please ... please give him back his life, for his sake, for those poor brave women down there, for this whole world!"

Tears streamed down his cheeks. "Good Torm, I beg you!"

A shimmer in the stinking air before him. A tiny point of radiance, intolerably bright, expanding to a miniature sun. The brilliance dazzled his heat-sensitive eyes, threatening to burn them out, yet it filled his soul with warmth and peace such as he had never known.

Shield of Innocence, said a voice in his mind, who well have justified your name, you alone of mortals in this world have I addressed through all the ages, and you alone shall I so address. Torm hears you, and through Him, I hear.

My name has been taken in vain. You have chosen to redress this evil, knowing what the cost would be. So be it: your wish is granted.

Since Elminster's sort of immortal, this doesn't really contradict the other scene, especially since he and Ao speak face to face rather than Ao speaking directly into his mind.

[Stabbald]

Thank you playground I finally found out the power of this beast.


Might build him to **** with my group.......

MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Rocks fall, everyone dies.

[marcielle]

Or, you know, since this takes quite a few turns, something inexplicably pops up that interfers with the process.