Breath Weapons versus Evasion

[kardar233]

How would a Dragonfire Adept or other breath weapon-based character deal with Evasion-equipped enemies with a high Reflex save, assuming that you can't boost your save DC high enough to reliably beat their Reflex?

[tyckspoon]

A DFA should have at least one non-Ref-based breath effect option. Anybody else.. well, honestly, Dragon Fire Adept is the only real 'breath weapon based' character I can think of; any other class or monster should have decent alternate options if their breath weapon is ineffective in a situation.

[Fearan]

Slow breath (targets fort) and Chilling fog should do the trick. Failing that, use invocations that stack fear effects

[Igneel]

Paralyzing paralyzes for 1 round if they fail a Fort save.

Sickening sickens for 1-2 rounds.

Sleep puts creatures with less Hit Dice then you class level to sleep or exhausted for 1 round with a Will save.

Slow is king with 1-2 rounds slowed, penalties to AC, attack rolls, and Reflex saves with a Fort save.

Chilling Fog really helps as well.

If you don't feel like getting all of the Status effecting breaths, there is an alternative (but expensive) way around it. There is a Crown you can buy from 'Dragons of Faerun' called the Crown of the North Winds that gives you the ability to replace your breath weapons normal energy damage with a alternate breath weapon Metallic Dragons have. So for example you can replace your fire breath for either a Weakening or Sleep, electric for Repulsion, acid for Slow, and frost for Paralyzing. All for 70,000 gold pieces.

[Lonely Tylenol]

If you're a Dragonfire Adept, you get a slow breath at level 5. In spite of appearances, this is not an option: this is a class feature.

If you're a Dragon Shaman, your best bet is to have a high CON, use Heighten Breath (to your maximum CON bonus, so that you add twice your CON modifier to the save DC), and then just stack other metabreath feats on top of it, because you are definitely NOT going get to use your breath again in the same combat (so why not Quicken, Entangling Exhalation, Clinging, Lingering, or Maximize? You can actually stack all of these except for Quicken and Maximize).

[Igneel]

On the subject of Metabreaths, if your a DfA and your Dm allows the Humanoid Shape invocation granting access to the Constrictor Naga (Oriental Adventures, its Humanoid in the printed book, but was updated in a Dragon Mag to Monsterous Humanoid) you can buy a Gorget of Tempest Breath (Draconomicon, 10k) to grant you the Tempest Breath feat for free. Combining the two, you can breath Windstorm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/weather.htm) effects on anyone in the area of your breath and they have to make a Fort DC 20 check or be blown away (Small or Smaller creatures), knocked down (Medium creatures), or checked (Large or Huge creatures). Granted its a fixed save, it will be an interesting tactic when combined with something like Slow breath or Entangling Exhalation.

Edit: Course, looking back, I don't think the metabreath granted by a item would technically be able to be applied to your DfA breath weapon...

[ShneekeyTheLost]

This is, of course, the main drawback with DFA. Evasion/Mettle kick it in a naughty place.

[Igneel]

This is, of course, the main drawback with DFA. Evasion/Mettle kick it in a naughty place.

Thankfully, Mettle giving classes is kinda limited compared to Evasion giving classes. Don't know why I never tried to build a character like that.

[kardar233]

I'm actually using MoMF to Wildshape into Dragon forms and using Assume Supernatural Ability to get their breath weapons. The top CON I'll be able to get is ~30, but even with Heighten I can't get DCs high enough to deal with these guys.

I might have to just stack breath weapon effects and hope one of them gets through

[ericgrau]

With area abilities simply find ways to hit all your foes. That way either there will be some who don't have evasion or even if they all have evasion and high saves at least one is bound to fail his save. It could be better but full damage against one foe isn't bad. Try looking for ways to exclude your allies like shaping the blast or protecting them from the energy type, that way you can cover more foes with the blast without hitting allies. A 5th level druid can cast protection from energy and at higher levels you can get a wand to spam it on allies.

Anything else that causes repeated saves or changes the save type works too.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I'm actually using MoMF to Wildshape into Dragon forms and using Assume Supernatural Ability to get their breath weapons. The top CON I'll be able to get is ~30, but even with Heighten I can't get DCs high enough to deal with these guys.

Really? If you had CON 30 and Heighten, then your CON modifier would be +10, and you can increase the save DC with Heighten by another +10. With that, your save DC is basically 30 + 1/2 your HD. If you have, say, 10 HD, then your save DC is 35--which means that a character needs to have a +25 to their save just to have about a 50% chance of saving. I'm guessing you're fighting against PCs or something?

[jaybird]

Really? If you had CON 30 and Heighten, then your CON modifier would be +10, and you can increase the save DC with Heighten by another +10. With that, your save DC is basically 30 + 1/2 your HD. If you have, say, 10 HD, then your save DC is 35--which means that a character needs to have a +25 to their save just to have about a 50% chance of saving. I'm guessing you're fighting against PCs or something?

Diamond Mind maneuvers, Monk, or Divine Grace focused Paladin, maybe? :smalleek:

Of course, only one of those is a real danger :smallbiggrin:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Thankfully, Mettle giving classes is kinda limited compared to Evasion giving classes. Don't know why I never tried to build a character like that.

There's a couple of PrC's that give Mettle after a two level dip. My personal favorite is Witch Slayer in Tome of Magic, which has very low entry requirements.

[Igneel]

There's a couple of PrC's that give Mettle after a two level dip. My personal favorite is Witch Slayer in Tome of Magic, which has very low entry requirements.

Yes, but I'm quite certain that there are more Base/PrC's that grant Improved/Evasion then Mettle. Agreed, Witch Hunter, Pious Templar (Complete Divine, gets it at 1st level), and Hexblade (gets it at 3rd) are the top three that I know of.

[Wilhelm]

Don't you get an invocation that lets you change shape? I think it was Humanoid Shape. That should give you some kind of versatility when your breath weapon won't work. There are some tricks here: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870954/The_New_Dragonfire_Adept_Handbook!

I personally don't have enough practical experience to say what would be good or usable for you, but between this and the people here you should find something to suit your tastes.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yes, but I'm quite certain that there are more Base/PrC's that grant Improved/Evasion then Mettle. Agreed, Witch Hunter, Pious Templar (Complete Divine, gets it at 1st level), and Hexblade (gets it at 3rd) are the top three that I know of.

Perhaps, but the entry requirements for at least two out of those three are so low (or nonexistent, in the case of Hexblade) that they can be tacked into just about any melee build. Therefore, while there aren't as many actual sources, those sources that do exist can be bolted on with minimal hassle, should the situation require.

A three level dip into Hexblade would make sense for any 'tank' build anyways, what with Charisma to saves and debuffing.

[Person_Man]

Since you're not going to be making melee attacks very often, there's no reason to buy a magic weapon, which is often the single biggest expense for many builds. Thus you have plenty of money to buy wands, staves, rings, etc., and you have UMD on your Skill list.