zeh bard!

[Lockheart]

Good day fellow playgrounders!

I've recently been informed of a pending 3.5 game to be held this coming Sunday and have been invited after being away for more than a year. Yay!

However something dawned on me just after I accepted the invite. All I've ever played were damage dealers.. fighters, rangers, barbarians etc. But!.. I'm done.. I wanna play something that sits in the back and let's the knuckle draggers bludgeon things to death. :)

So after 3 minutes of deliberation I've decided to play a bard. I've seen many in campaigns and the majority have played big rolls as group support or other various rolls. Knowing that there's multiple directions I can take this, I thought I'd throw my questions to the masses and listen to what feedback anyone is willing to share.

Ideally, I just want to benefit my team in every sense of the word. So allow me to provide what little info I know about the campaign.

First off, I'm certain were going to play in a large city (metropolis?) that houses well over 200,000+ people of various races, though I'm fairly confident the dominant species will human. My future adventuring buddies will be a mix of monks, rogues, and a Wu Jen. As far as I know, I'm the only player looking to be skill heavy. Everyone else just appears to be gung-ho about trying out alternate builds so its probably going to fall on me to be the front man. Which is great mind you as I've never played anything like this in my life.

This however is where I feel I will fail. I'm not entirely ..uhmm.. social. I've thought about emulating a personality or 2 and deviating from there as I see fit but I don't want to fail too badly. I suppose as far as that goes I'd like to ask, what would you recommend to someone who's never played this kind of role before?

That's all I have for now. Thanks for any and all feedback. :D

[Righteous Doggy]

The less stress the better. You can do well I'm sure, and if not no one will hate you for it. I had a player once with performance oratory who was one of the quietest guys you'd ever meet, but he might have been the most powerful roleplayer at the table.

[limejuicepowder]

When I first got in to role playing, being self-conscious about the character I was playing was a definite obstacle I had to overcome. I found that playing outrageous, over the top characters helped: if I just went all out, and didn't worry about nuance and having the "perfect thing to say," I could just relax and have fun. To this day, playing larger than life characters are probably still my favorite.

Bards can work very well for this, as their high charisma can easily justify them saying, and getting away with, things that other people wouldn't dream of saying. Having characters to emulate is a good idea, as it gives a starting point. Alternatively, pick a personality trait and play it up: let it define your character. Arrogance, stinginess, featherbrained, sliver-tongued, etc.

Just to note, outrageous people don't have to be stupid, or comic relief. Anime in particular (if you're familiar) has tons of over the top characters that are at the same time serious. Vegeta from Dragonball Z and Hiko Sejiro from Rorouni Kension immediately come to my mind as serious, yet over the top characters. Other examples would be Deadpool (for marvel fans), Superman (DC), Rorschach (from The Watchmen), and virtually every role that Jim Carrey has ever played. All of these character can be described with just a few traits, but those traits are raised to a level no real person would actually be at.

[Lockheart]

Thanks for the advice.

I'm just hoping to leave a lasting impression with something outside of my routine. I'm not kidding when I say that my previous characters have all fallen short of their real glory. Rolling 1's repeatedly is common place.

My archers are the worst. The game wouldn't be normal if I hadn't snapped my string over 10 times in a single session.

I've exhausted lots of ideas that fail to reach fruition just because of my poor rolls. After this weekend that's all gonna change. I'm gonna enjoy watching everything unfold before my eyes knowing I can participate when I choose and know that the fight doesn't hinge on me tagging my opponent.

[INoKnowNames]

If you want to be able to sit in the back and watch the rest of the party fight, even though you're new to the bard, I feel like I can recommend Dragon Fire Inspiration and Inspire Courage Optimization and not be ashamed.

It hinges a bit on being good alligned, admitedly, but it's still a nice bonus otherwise.

However, if you are good alligned, and do what you can to bump up your inspire courge, you can be looking at a nice boost to attacks and damage. And other than play background music, you don't have to lift a finger.

What level is this bard going to be at? Everyone at level 1? Any specific Point Buy or Stats? Books? I'm sure people could come up with additional ways to make your bard even more bardy. Like, 20% more bardy.

[Lockheart]

What level is this bard going to be at? Everyone at level 1? Any specific Point Buy or Stats? Books? I'm sure people could come up with additional ways to make your bard even more bardy. Like, 20% more bardy.

Everyone will be starting off at level 1. No stats as of yet. I have to have another player or the DM present to make the rolls. All books are accepted, though magazines are off-limits.

TBH, beyond stats, I don't even know what feats to pick much less anything else.

[Fable Wright]

For feats: Dragonfire Inspiration(DrM), Song of the Heart(ECS), and Words of Creation (BoED) are all feats you should take, if you want to settle back and let the party do all the work for you. You would let everyone add large numbers of d6s of elemental damage to all of their attacks while singing, and then just stand back and cast a couple of spells while the party clobbered everything.

[INoKnowNames]

Everyone will be starting off at level 1. No stats as of yet. I have to have another player or the DM present to make the rolls. All books are accepted, though magazines are off-limits.

TBH, beyond stats, I don't even know what feats to pick much less anything else.

Well, no matter what you do as a Bard, your spellcasting can help it, which means you should have good Charisma. And while you have decent skill points, you'll probably find uses for more, so Int is also a good focus. Wisdom is your most likely dumpstat, with Strength and Dex hanging behind Constitution.

We could probably google-fu some nice handbooks if you wanted some reading to think about for your bard. I'm particularly keen on Dragon Fire Inspiration, but focusing on your spellcasting is good, too. I would like to ask again if you're going to be good or not, since the best thing about Inspire Courage / Dragon Fire Inspiration requires being good. Granted, it's not much of a loss or anything.

What resources do you have immediately accessable to you?


For feats: Dragonfire Inspiration(DrM), Song of the Heart(ECS), and Words of Creation (BoED) are all feats you should take, if you want to settle back and let the party do all the work for you. You would let everyone add large numbers of d6s of elemental damage to all of their attacks while singing, and then just stand back and cast a couple of spells while the party clobbered everything.

To clarify, depending on how easy you can or can't look up things:

Dragonfire Inspiration allows you to add Xd6 damage to each attack you or your ally does, with X being the level of Inspire Courage you could have done. You have to be Dragonblooded to do it, usually done through some odd Sorcerer work around, or by being a Silverbrow Human.

Song of the Heart adds +1 to your level of Inspire Courage.

Words of Creation -DOUBLES- your Inspire Courage, on the grounds that you have to be good.

Lets have a level 20 Bard. +4 to Inspire Courage naturally. +1 from Song of the Heart. x2 with Words of Creation. You can give allies +10 to each attack roll and damage roll they do. Which is nice. Or you could have them do an additional 10d6 Elemental Damage per hit (usually fire, unless you do a work around). Which is also nice. And very painful.

And all you have to do is play music.

[Socratov]

ok, first bulding advice: what do you want to do, do you want to cast like a sorc light? do you want to optimise your inspire courage? and look for a build accordingly (womewhere on the wizards boards a great handbook exists for Bard, only tip is, take the SotH and Healing Hymn ACF's, they're worth it).

AS for roleplaying advice, try to build your bard after some person the the media. I that case it's easier to roleplay since you have examples of how said person is and you can actually use his lines in movies or on television to enhance your roleplaying. Fro perform Oratory you can pretty much grab any army rallying speech out there (braveheart's and Aragorn's are favorites)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You've got Rogues and Monks in the party... both can be potent damage dealers (assuming they have an opportunity to actually get a full attack in), but they are both plagued by two unrelenting problems:

1) a striker who depends on hitting, but with only a 3/4 BAB

2) Massive damage output in a full attack progression, but little hope of getting one.

For both of these problems, there is a solution, which requires a little bit of multiclassing, and you'll also probably be just as good in a fight as ever... just in a different manner.

First off, you need a way to help the rogues apply sneak attack damage. Best way to do this is found in Tome of Battle.

The feat is called Clarion Commander. Flat DC 20 Intimidate check to declare an opponent Flanked for a full minute. In that time, your rogues can skeletonize your opponent like a pack of piranha, and no need to flank.

Second, you need to help your allies move and strike. The biggest problem, particularly for the monks, is that they can't Flurry if they have to close. White Raven has some solutions for that as well.

The 3rd level Maneuver White Raven Tactics has a somewhat unsavory reputation due to some of the shenanigans two 'idiot crusaders' can pull with it. However, you're going to be using this one 'legitimately', which is to say, giving an ally a move action to close with an opponent so they can make a full attack on their turn.

There is a 6th level White Raven Maneuver called Order Formed from Chaos... all allies get a move action during your move. That can let everyone close... with decidedly lethal results to opponents who are now facing full attacks... assuming your enemies don't go before they do. However, that requires IL of 12th, which means you're not going to be getting it any time soon, if at all, if you plan on going Bard.

If ToB is not allowed at your table, then oddly enough, Marshall is an option for a dip. 4 levels in Marshall = Grant Move Action, which lets your allies close without blowing their ability to do a full attack. The downside... only 1/day. But, for that one combat, it can be absolutely devastating. Fortunately, the Magic Item Compendium can help with this.

If you are familiar with Inspire Courage Optimiztion, then you've heard of the Badge of Valor. Now we get acquainted with the rest of the set.

Badge of Valor, of course, increases your Inspire Courage by 1.

Helm of Tactics gives your allies a +2 untyped bonus on damage on flanked opponents. Rogues... love flanking. Benefits are obvious. If you have a good Minor Aura which is relevant, you can boost that instead.

Horn of Resilience is a marvelous and multi-talented tool. The DR is mostly pointless. Boosting your Major Aura, however, is much more useful. Bonus temporary hit points can also be a godsend to a D6 or D8 hit die Rogue or Monk if he finds himself about to be hit with return fire.

But the best is the additional benefits from having all three pieces. Since you're a Marshall, you can get an extra use of Grant Move Action per day... which is easily just as powerful as all of the other item benefits combined.

So, if ToB is allowed, a 4 level dip in either Crusader or Warblade nets you the White Raven equipment to empower your allies. If not... Marshall.

Great, that's your dip, not your main build. Now let's talk Bard.

Now Bard has some great things they can do, but I'd suggest focusing on party buffs. Haste, for example, is a great way to boost the party's damage output, particularly when combined with your ability to make sure your allies get full attacks. You also can excel at debuffing. Grease makes opponents denied dex bonus to AC... which the Rogues will certainly appreciate. Glitterdust makes opponents Blind, which means flat-footed, which means denied dex bonus, which means the Rogues again sing your praises.

However, there's another way to work this...

Bard4/(either Warblade/Crusader or Marshall)4/War Chanter 10/x 2

War Chanter has a capstone ability which would enormously empower your group... Inspire Legion is a song which basically gives everyone a full BAB... including iteratives. That's more attacks for everyone, and you excel at making sure people can get into position to take advantage of full attacks. Since you have a lot of 3/4 BAB 'striker' classes, and I'll be willing to bed they are going to be multiclassing at least a little bit, this is tantamount to at least one free attack that stacks with Haste.

I'd also suggest Song of the Heart, although I'm less fond of Words of Creation personally, due to my innate dislike for Exalted feats and BoED in general. Granted, WoC is great, don't get me wrong, but it's not really necessary, and can get the GM very upset at you for overbalancing the group.

Now, you may have noticed the build ending in x 2. This is the wild card, should your game last that long, and will depend on how your build your character before then.

If you go ToB, then if those last four are Warblade/Crusader, you should be able to just manage to nab Order Forged From Chaos, which is godly for your group. I really don't see any other option that is as strong for you at these levels. In fact, if ToB is on the table, I'd just as soon go Bard4/Warblade or Crusader2/War Chanter 10/Warblade or Crusader 4, so you get better maneuvers later.

If you don't, then I would just as strongly suggest ending with Bard for more spells, even though you never quite get 3rd level spells pre-epic.

[Gwendol]

Some more tips:

Assuming human (without draconic heritage), the first feat list should probably be:

1 Extra Music
H Melodic Casting (CMage)
3 Songs of the Heart (ECS)
6 Lyric Spell (CAdv)
9 X

ACF's include switching out Bardic lore for bardic knack, though there are others you might consider as well.
Skill tricks include Collector of Stories (it is really good).
Spell lists is pretty much whatever, but the big ones you want for each level are:

1st
Inspirational Boost (SpC)
Improvisation (SpC)
Charm Person (if going Mindbender, otherwise skip)
Grease

2nd
Glitterdust

3rd
Haste
Slow
Glibness

4th
Solid Fog
Dim Door

That should give you a pretty good start. I think I cited everything...

Power-up suite for most combats will be:

Swift: Cast Inspirational Boost
Standard: Inspire Courage
Move: Move
End turn
Immediate action: Activate Badge of Valor

Next turn
Standard: Cast Haste
Move: Move
End turn

After that, doesn't really matter much, maybe toss out a Grease or a Glitterdust or shoot a short bow or whatever. Just keep singing!

[Gavinfoxx]

I usually prefer Silverbrow Human for that draconic bit!

[Andorax]

As an aside, see if you can talk the Wu-Jen into investing into some measure of stealth and mobility. Your party composition seems to be ideally designed to get into and out of places easily and quietly...you don't have a 'clank tank' to worry about. It might make for a very interesting playstyle.


Also, you may want to invest in the bardic "cure" line of spells, since it would appear that the party is absent a healer.

[Gwendol]

With healing hymn, a healing belt, some wands, a bard makes for a decent healer.

[nedz]

Pretty good advice there Gwendol, but you missed Silent Image ?

Bards can make reasonable illusionists, if thats your thing.

But I think that the OP was after RP advice maybe ?

I think that you will find that simply "acting confident" will make you more confident. What seems hard now, will become easy sooner than you think.

[Lockheart]

Wow that's a lot of input! I really appreciate everyone taking the time to help me carve out a bard that suits me.

I'm typing this from my phone atm so I won't be able to check off every question but I will say this much. I'm looking to inspire more thru music and be musically inclined.

I've already been leaning towards chaotic good alignment, so I'm not worried about having conflictions with the previously stated "goodly" abilities.

Forgive my response times, I've just finished my finals for the semester and I'm about as burnt out as I've ever been. More to come.

[tiercel]

While Words of Creation is a staple of optimizing Inspire Courage for Good-aligned bards, it should be noted that you don't just have to be Good.

You have to be Exalted.

If your DM is allowing BoED and has actually read it, you might want to be careful -- actually being Exalted means a behavioral code of conduct that is not less tricky than sticking to a paladin's code. Your DM may not press you on this issue, but it's worth finding out beforehand, rather than finding out he actually will track your character's behavior carefully and potentially strip you of your [Exalted] benefits if you transgress.

(Also, your DM might freak out if you throw the entire Inspire Courage optimization -- especially Words of Creation -- at him, depending on the optimization level of your campaign. YMMV.)

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If you need healing, the Healing Hymn alternative class feature from Complete Champion will definitely help, but note that it only works on spells that you/allies cast yourselves, not spells from items (including wands and staves). [Also, you'll want to take later alternative class features to make up for the fact that your suggestion song won't work.] {Also also note that there are errata for Complete Champion that limit the benefit from Healing Hymn, depending on whether your DM uses them/cares about them/knows about them.}

However, if you're really worried about healing, keep in mind that there's a whole handbook on healing without having a dedicated heal-bot character (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871786/A_Players_Guide_to_Healing_%28And,_why_you_will_be _Just_Fine_without_a_Cleric_to_heal%29).

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Extra Music is one of those highly situational feats, IMO -- do you know what range of levels the campaign is likely to mostly be at? If it is a game that is going to spend a long time with your characters at 1st-4th level, Extra Music could be pretty awesome. If you are going to have a reasonably rapid progression into levels much higher than that, though, you will need to be focusing on feats/ACFs that burn through your Bardic Music uses for Extra Music to be worth it. At mid-to-high levels, you face the significant danger of having music left over every day you're not using, making Extra Music a waste -- unless you have abilities that will let you use all that, well, extra music.

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If you're new to bard and want to Be All the Bard You Can Be, pure Bard is an entirely viable build, with its music progression, high skills, decent spell list and secondary casting progression. (Don't forget that medium BAB + unoptimized Inspire Courage = fighter-level attack bonus!) I'm not saying don't multiclass/prestige -- just make sure you know what portion of the Bard package you are willing to focus on (and what you're willing to give up) when you start dipping into other levels.

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You won't need to worry about spell selection too much right off the bat, since at 1st level you only have 0-level spells, including a lot of good ones -- don't be shy about taking daze, since it is actually useful at 1st-2nd level, and you'll be able to swap it out at Bard5; detect magic is just too useful over the life of a campaign, prestidigitation is like "minor wish", and message, dancing lights, ghost sound are all useful utility spells that don't go bad.

Once you get 1st level spells, inspirational boost (SpC) is pretty much too good to ignore. I really like improvisation (SpC) but it's worth having a few levels under your belt before taking it. Grease is always a good all-around minor battlefield-control spell. Only worry about taking cure light wounds if you are working the Healing Hymn ability -- otherwise just having it on your class spell list is enough to operate wands without using UMD.

[You are taking max ranks in UMD, right? Use Magic Device is practically a class feature, not just a skill. It is way too useful to be able to use any scroll/wand/staff/whatever in the game, even if it takes a while to get your skill check modifier high enough to be reliable. Unless your campaign is going to quit at low level, maxing out UMD is just too useful. Plus, as a bard, you're going to have a high Cha anyway, boost it more with an enhancement bonus item, and a circlet of persuasion (DMG) is just all-around good for you even aside from UMD.]

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I could go on but in terms of having a giant clearinghouse of Bard-build ideas, you probably can't beat Dictum Mortuum's Bard Handbook (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2011/08/bards-handbook.html). But obviously people on these boards will be happy to try and help you narrow down the vast number of options as you give us more info on the kind of bard you want to try really getting into.

[Talionis]

One level dip into Cleric and pick up Trickery Devotion. High Charisma will help to give you more Turn Attempts to fuel your trickery clones. At low levels, your clones can use skills, like Perform to double up on Bardic Music or double your number of uses of Bardic Music. At high levels, Snowflake Wardance will allow your clones to attack in melee combat.

And depending on how much optimization you like you may want to get a ring of Undersong 1st level Bard spell from the Spell Compendium, which allows you to use Perform to replace Concentration checks. This is especially nice with a some of the Tome of Battle maneuvers that use Concentration for damage or to replace saves.