Necromancer Gish that WORKS?

[PangolinPie]

I always like to plan ahead in the event that I could DIE in a game...especially due to my own lack of common sense and taking really ballsy risks during game play for the sake of glory. So in with that in mind I wanted to have a follow up character idea ready to go in the event that my current one met his demise.

(this is an evil alignment game BTW with a merc/bounty hunter theme)

Currently I'm playing a Wizard1/Rogue3 that prestiged as the Gnome Artificer PRSC from Faerun. He functions very much like a gish right now as long as he gets in sneak attack and flanking bonuses and his devices definitely add quite a bit of firepower to gameplay...but anyway...

I've always love the concept behind the necromancer. I've researched all the major Divine and Arcane resources, trying a number of character builds but sadly none seem to really have any "wow" factor to be seen, falling more into that "jack of all trades, master of none" category. So far only the Dread Necromancer (HoH) base class and the True Necromancer PRSC (LM) have any real appeal but again, as the base for a real gish build one area always seems to be lacking quite a bit.

I've often heard that playing a straightforward evil alignment Cleric is the best way to maximize a Necromancer concept but we currently have two cleric's (one of which is an NPC) AND a Bard in our game already .

At this point I'm even considering a straightforward caster build since the Dragon Shaman and Ranger in our group already give us a pretty good meat shield factor...so yeah I dunno...maybe doing something more rogue based would work better, mixing stealth with undead/spiritual/shadow manipulation.

It should also be noted that right now I'm the ONLY Arcane themed character in the game, even though I only have access to first level spells to cast freely...

Sorry for the rambling...I'm a bit sleep deprived LOL

[Dumbledore lives]

Well if you want to go Necromancer gish Dread Necromancer is actually fairly decent at it, especially at low levels. Tomb-tainted soul/Necropolitan means unlimited self healing, and you a little DR gained at like level 2, so can be a decent survivor, especially with spells like false life to give you temp health. Once you get animate dead you can mix it up with some flanking buddies and combined with destructive retribution you can gain health whenever one of them goes down. So yeah, dread necromancer can be a capable melee combatant, especially with one free martial weapon proficiency.

[moritheil]

Well, Wiz1/Rog3 is definitely not the way to do it . . . for a hybrid build like a gish you really want to plan things out from 1-20 so you can avoid missteps.

If your DM allows the evil paladin variants, the sorcadin isn't bad (Pal 2/Sorc 4/Spellsword 1/AbChamp 5/Whatever X) You aren't a classical necromancer but you have lots of sorcerer slots to cast necromancy spells off of. You also get Dispel Magic quickened for free, so you can shut down enemy casting while you fight.

Not to add to your frustration, but a Cleric can do the "gish" concept (casting and fighting) right out of the box, and has turning/rebuking as well, making it better than the gish for necromancy.

[PangolinPie]

Well, Wiz1/Rog3 is definitely not the way to do it . . .

Sorry, Wiz1/Rog4 is what I meant...and that base was intended to meet the requirements specifically for the Gnome Artificer (one arcane spellcasting level and the skill boost via Rogue to meet the lofty skill prereq's) and eventually, the Effigy Master making him an overall tech specialist in all areas...

[Feytalist]

In a previous thread, Shneeky suggested a slick Dread Necro gish that was a beast at demoralisation. If I can find it, I'll post a link to it. It was quite a killer build.

[Wookie-ranger]

So far only the Dread Necromancer (HoH) base class and the True Necromancer PRSC (LM) have any real appeal but again, as the base for a real gish build one area always seems to be lacking quite a bit.

I've often heard that playing a straightforward evil alignment Cleric is the best way to maximize a Necromancer concept but we currently have two cleric's (one of which is an NPC) AND a Bard in our game already .


Dread Necromancer is one of my favorite classes. it can do a lot and has great optimization potential, but is still not too cheese.
assuming you start at Level 4 (given your Wiz1/Rog3) you could talk to your DM about letting you play as a Necropolitan. This template is practically made for the DN.


In a previous thread, Shneeky suggested a slick Dread Necro gish that was a beast at demoralisation.

Yup, this.
Invest in Intimidate (and bluff for synergy) get some one to cast Enlarge Person on you (+4 bonus for size against medium creatures) and together with your class ability you can give strong enemies, -2 on rolls, have then run away from you, or simply cower until you put them out of your misery.
If your game will go higher in levels you should get into the Dread Witch (i think??) it gives bonuses on fear/demoralize and you will also be able to use fear on things that are usually immune to it. ever want to see a Balor hide in a corner from you?
good times.


I have played a True Necromancer before. once. only once. and for good reasons.
It might have been a personal experience, and for some this might be a very fun class to play; but i found that it was too much fluff and not enough mechanical game-play-ability (i kind of made the last word up, but i hope you know what i mean).
again, this may not be true for everyone.


pure Cleric is rarely a bad choice. they are Tier 1 for a reason. properly themed and fluffed they make great Necromancers, and with in heavy armor (bone mail anyone)and with decent hp also good fighters/tanks.

I know you asked for a Gish, but if you want more of a Necromancer and less of a fighter you could go Cloistered Cleric.
when most people think of a necromancer they usually don't think of a tough burly guy in full armor swinging a heavy mace around; so the CC has more Flavor to it, with the limited selection of armor and weapons.
The lower hp can be offset by becoming a Necropolitan. The Lower attack bonus is irrelevant if you don't try to target someone (or use DMM cheese). The Lore(EX) can be fluffed into you being able to faintly hear the dead beyond the veil and sometime they are saying something useful.

[Randomguy]

I think dread necromancer would be a pretty good base for a gish. Abjurant Champion is the logical choice, but to get in you need a few other classes.

Hexblade or Paladin of slaughter/tyranny would both work; only two levels required, and I suppose 3 levels of duskblade wouldn't be horrible either, since you could channel inflict spells.

There's also bone knight, which is a great undead-gish class (or so I've heard) but I think you need divine casting to qualify for it. You could just multiclass into cleric or favoured soul for a few levels, but I think the alternative spell source feat would work as well. It'll also let you use divine metamagic, which is a plus.

[Yorrin]

As everyone has said, Dread Necro is a good choice here if you're avoiding Cleric. But allow me to propose taking it in a slightly different direction. Something like a DN 2/Crusader 2 or DN 2/Warblade 2 (to keep it at your current level) would be a strong option.

While I'm on the topic of Martial Adepts, Ruby Knight Vindicator is always good for Gish, if you're willing to go Cleric. As is Bone Knight, which randomguy mentioned. But I can understand the desire not to put a third Cleric in the party.

[eggs]

A Binder with Tenebrous bound gets Rebuking at its effective binder level. This can spill over into gishes via Anima Mage or Ur-Priest/Tenebrous Apostate (which has some good power and cool fluff synergy, to boot).

Warlocks have a pretty cool version of Animate that's a bit more tactically oriented than the default. Though Warlock can be a bit dry to play, something like Eldritch Disciple can really make it shine.

Otherwise a typical Cleric or Wizard gish does just fine. You could mix in Bone Knight or Ordained Champion levels with a Cleric, if you want to mix it up. And with a Wizard, the Enhanced Necromancy ACF and a few levels in Master Specialist can make Undead much tougher to deal with.

Something like Necromancer 1/Fighter 1/Master Necromancer 4/Knight Phantom 9/Abjurant Champion 5 would make a strong melee character and a pretty good animator once Animate Dead comes into play. With Precocious Spellcaster (False Life), it might even be able to adopt a melee role from level 1.

[Fable Wright]

If you're not really focusing on optimization, consider going Dread Necromancer 4/Duskblade 3/Abjurant Champion 5/Whatever +8. Duskblade I believe gets you the Abjuring that you need for Abjurant Champion, and Arcane Channeling with the Dread Necromancer spell list is downright terrifying, especially with Versatile Spellcaster to grant you spells of one higher level than normal. Channel Avasculate? Don't mind if I do. Harm? It's a bit lower-impact, but sure. Dispel magic all your buffs? Seems fair. You can also stay in the class for one more level to get the Fear aura, and then proceed to stack fear effects if you were afraid of them making saving throws against your touch attacks. It generally works better when you gestalt the classes, but it could be workable this way too.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

In a previous thread, Shneeky suggested a slick Dread Necro gish that was a beast at demoralisation. If I can find it, I'll post a link to it. It was quite a killer build.

Hmm, you mean my Scarecrow build? Yea, but it doesn't quite work right at the moment, but the basic concept is sound.

First off... Intimidate is a sucker's bet. Intimidate means you are blowing an action to demoralize. I'd much rather blow an action to hit someone with a pile of negative levels, or start tossing around SoD effects.

Besides, with Dread Necromancer, it's completely unnecessary. Here's why:

One of the great things about Dread Necromancer is that he gets actually relevant class abilities. At level 5, he picks up a Fear Aura.

Now, a Fear Aura usually isn't a whole lot to talk about... but we're about to boost it pretty severely. The important thing here is that it doesn't have a HD cap.

Currently, Fear Aura gives opponents a Shaken condition... not too troublesome for them, unfortunately. However, fear effects stack, and there's ways to boost this. And ways to boost your martial capability as well.

First off, we need to DMM, since you have Rebuke attempts burning a hole in your pocket. However, you need to cast as divine if you want to DMM. There's two ways around this:

NaenHoon. There's only a couple of spells per day you want to persist. This lets you do that.

Southern Magician. Lets you count as either arcane or divine.

Next, we're going to be wanting to pick up Arcane Devotee for the Pride domain. Why? It's called Divine Power. Remember that one? It's what ClericZilla uses. So can we. You also get to pick up a few other handy buffs at the same time, and also pick up Forbiddance, if you are worried about people popping into your sanctum sanctorum.

Righteous Might is obtained through either the Wrath domain or the Strength domain. I suggest Strength, because it also nets you Magic Vestments for AC boosting, and it also nets you Enlarge Person (as long as you aren't undead) which, so far as I am aware, due to the wording of "You increase one size category" stack for purposes of size increases. However, if you are undead, you aren't a humanoid, so it won't work on you.

Now, that's how you are a beatstick... now you're probably wondering how you become able to cripple wide swaths in combat... two things:

1) Dread Witch. Bypasses immunities, and boosts the DC of your Fear Aura

2) Aura of Terror. It's a 6th level spell, meaning you can pick it up at CL 12 with an Advanced Learning. That usually means Dread Necro 7/Dread Witch5/Dread Necro1. You delay getting it by one level, but when you get it, you can immediately put it into practice. Now opponents are Frightened when they fail their save, an additional DC boost to the save.

Now, where the Scarecrow build in my Reanimated Dread Necromancer's Handbook is falling flat is where he gets to apply Fell Frighten to Aura of Terror, because Snowcasting requires a Con score, which you lose as undead. If your GM won't let you go Necropolitian, then it can work, even though it is feat intensive. Otherwise, you'll have to forego this last bit of fear optimization.

So to recap:

Find a way to DMM: Persist. Either NaenHoon or Southern Magician

Persist Divine Power and Righteous Might to ClericZilla

Aura of Terror on your Fear Aura to make opponents piddle themselves for getting witin 15' of you. 30' if you pick up the feat from Libris Mortis which doubles the radius of your aura.

And you can still toss around negative levels or other fear effects to finish locking down opponents (remember: fear effects stack. If you have an opponent who is Frightened, hitting them with another fear effect makes them Panicked. A Panicked individual who cannot run instead Cowers).

Intimidate is a sucker's bet, because you're doing that without needing to blow actions on it.

If you don't want to Fear Lockdown, then you can do some Enervation Cheese, using Arcane Thesis, a Slaymate, Metamagic School Focus (Necromancy), and other tactics to produce some sickening amount of negative levels. Dip Duskblade to channel it into your attacks.

[Fable Wright]

If you don't want to Fear Lockdown, then you can do some Enervation Cheese, using Arcane Thesis, a Slaymate, Metamagic School Focus (Necromancy), and other tactics to produce some sickening amount of negative levels. Dip Duskblade to channel it into your attacks.

Point of contention: Arcane Channeling explicitly calls out touch spells, or in other words, spells with 'touch' range, not spells that allow a touch attack. Unless you know how to turn a ray into a touch attack, you can't do this. If you can, though, please share; I've been wanting to make that character work for a long time.

[eggs]

Enlightened Fist

[Elric VIII]

Necrocarnate is a decent necromancer with gishing potential and some "wow" factor (or at least some "wtf is that" factor).

You can have a couple of zimbie buddies and hurl around evil and lifedraining effects.

Plus, your morning ritual is: Get up, hearty breakfast, brush teeth, kill some stuff, start adveturing.

[Urpriest]

Shneeky, is Intimidate still a sucker's bet if you have your familiar do it? Since it shares your skill ranks, even with size penalties and whatnot it seems like it would make a reasonable contribution, and there's not that much else for it to spend actions on.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Shneeky, is Intimidate still a sucker's bet if you have your familiar do it? Since it shares your skill ranks, even with size penalties and whatnot it seems like it would make a reasonable contribution, and there's not that much else for it to spend actions on.

Imps and Quasits can be using wands, and have much better things to do with their actions. Ghostly Visage can be using his Gaze of Terror to Paralyze opponents.

There's a crucial problem with using a familiar to intimidate... You need to be able to threaten them in combat in order to intimidate. Do you really want a chunk of xp sitting vulnerable next to something that might hurt it? Particularly when, unlike the Wizard, you don't have access to polycheese to turn it into a War Troll or something else equally obnoxious?

[Elric VIII]

Imps and Quasits can be using wands, and have much better things to do with their actions.

Don't you need UMD ranks in order to have them use wands?

[Darth Stabber]

I've been tempted to try Dreadnecromancer8/paladin of tyranny2/prcX for a while now, and it could work depending on the PRC. PoT gives everything in 10' -2 to saves, which combines nicely with fear aura.

[Bloodgruve]

Get a Wisdom of 14 minimum.

Take the Arcane Disciple feat grabbing a domain that has Divine Power, there are a few from Spell Compendium.

Take Versatile Spellcaster if your DM rules that you can only cast Divine Power once per day.

You have a spontaneous caster with full BAB and iterative attacks as soon as you get 3rd level spells. Check with your DM on this one to see if you 'know' spells on your spell list that you can't yet cast.

GL
Blood~

[Duke of URL]

Intimidate can be worth it if you're going for fear stacking effects, but only if you use the Never Outnumbered skill trick. Now, you don't have the be able to threaten them, and you can effect all enemies within 10'. Combine with your fear aura your ghostly visage familiar, and your choice of the available feats to jack up fear levels, and you can make entire groups of enemies frightened or even panicked in a single round.

Probably better just to kill them, of course, but making them run away is good for giggles.

As for gishing, you can get into Eldritch Knight as early as Dread Necromancer 6 / (melee class providing full martial weapon proficiency) 1, or just pick up a low-LA outsider race like Aasimar (if you can justify the fluff) if you don't want to multiclass. EK isn't the sexiest PRC, but you only lose 2 caster levels (1 to get MWP, 1 at EK 1) off your DN casting. I'd probably still want 8 levels of DN minimum before PrCing out

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Intimidate can be worth it if you're going for fear stacking effects, but only if you use the Never Outnumbered skill trick. Now, you don't have the be able to threaten them, and you can effect all enemies within 10'. Combine with your fear aura your ghostly visage familiar, and your choice of the available feats to jack up fear levels, and you can make entire groups of enemies frightened or even panicked in a single round.Never Outnumbered has two problems:

1) 10' radius. By that time, they're already IN your fear aura and pissing themselves.

2) Once per combat

Plus, of course, eating up your action.


Probably better just to kill them, of course, but making them run away is good for giggles.You're already doing that without blowing actions on them


As for gishing, you can get into Eldritch Knight as early as Dread Necromancer 6 / (melee class providing full martial weapon proficiency) 1, or just pick up a low-LA outsider race like Aasimar (if you can justify the fluff) if you don't want to multiclass. EK isn't the sexiest PRC, but you only lose 2 caster levels (1 to get MWP, 1 at EK 1) off your DN casting. I'd probably still want 8 levels of DN minimum before PrCing out

DN has too many viable class features for me to want to do that. Besides, with Rebuke already available to them, DMM is only a feat or racial feature away!

This is, ultimately, why I shy away from Paladin of Tyranny dips. Sure, it nets you full BAB for those levels, the -2 to saves, and your casting stat to all saves. But those two lost caster levels hurt, and if you are wanting fear to stick to opponents, you're already needing Dread Witch in your build to be viable.

[Darth Stabber]

Intimidate can be worth it if you're going for fear stacking effects, but only if you use the Never Outnumbered skill trick. Now, you don't have the be able to threaten them, and you can effect all enemies within 10'. Combine with your fear aura your ghostly visage familiar, and your choice of the available feats to jack up fear levels, and you can make entire groups of enemies frightened or even panicked in a single round.


If you want the real fun and efficacy with intimidate throw in imperious command (DotU). Your successful intimidate attempts cause the target to cower (and lose their actions) for 1 round, and then they're shaken. Combined with never outnumbered, and you can spend 1 action to negate many foes actions allowing your party more time. But if you plan on abusing fear for all it's worth as opposed to gishing, you might as well go dread witch. Also grab yourself a slaymate and take fell frighten, now all of your damage spells also cause fear, and with the slaymate you negate the spell level increase.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

If you want the real fun and efficacy with intimidate throw in imperious command (DotU). Your successful intimidate attempts cause the target to cower (and lose their actions) for 1 round, and then they're shaken. Combined with never outnumbered, and you can spend 1 action to negate many foes actions allowing your party more time. But if you plan on abusing fear for all it's worth as opposed to gishing, you might as well go dread witch. Also grab yourself a slaymate and take fell frighten, now all of your damage spells also cause fear, and with the slaymate you negate the spell level increase.

For the 4th level class feature Advanced Learning, I highly suggest Kelgore's Grave Mist as a vehicle for your Fell Frighten. No save, no SR, just take the damage already. Oh yea, and Shaken. Fell Drain is lulzworthy for this as well. Here, have some negative levels, on the house.

[Darth Stabber]

For the 4th level class feature Advanced Learning, I highly suggest Kelgore's Grave Mist as a vehicle for your Fell Frighten. No save, no SR, just take the damage already. Oh yea, and Shaken. Fell Drain is lulzworthy for this as well. Here, have some negative levels, on the house.

It's hard to make a case for a DN to pick a spell other than Kelgore's Gravemist for lvl4 advanced learning. Even without metamagic shenanigans that spell is just plain solid, and with metamagic it gets REALLY SCARY. The DN in the game that I am currently running uses it extensively, while the party takes positions around it, to keep the target's in. Depending on the rulings with fell drain (whether each turn's instance of damage gives a new negative level or not) it can be a really great combo if you can get another caster to throw up a wall or two around it.

[Duke of URL]

Depending on the rulings with fell drain (whether each turn's instance of damage gives a new negative level or not)

Maybe I tend toward conservative interpretations, but I would be stunned to see a ruling that says a specific target can be affected more than once per casting with Fell Drain. The logical extension of that would be to allow a CL 9 fell drain magic missile to inflict 5d4 damage and 5 negative levels to a single target from a 3rd level spell slot since it's hit 5 times. (And if you get that ruling, I'd suggest going wand shopping ASAP.)

Anyhoo, back on topic... if the OP wants to be gishy with a DN and not multiclass or PrC out into a more martial spellcasting class, I'd suggest finding ways of delivering melee damage with touch attacks, given the DN's horrendous BAB. Brilliant energy weapons are nice for this since you're going to be trying to control any undead you meet, leaving really only constructs as your main weakness.