Illumian Mystic Theruge

[greenpotato]

Hey guys, I'm new to theese forums and was wondering if I could get some advice/feedback on a build.

Illumian (Krau, Nean)
Conjurer 2 / Cleric 1 / Mystic Theruge 7

ACF
-Focused conjurer, 3 extra slots a day for loss of 1 generalist slot
-Rapid Summoning,
-Cloistered Cleric
-Enhanced Summoning

str 8, dex 8, con 14, int 17(increased to 18 at lvl 4), wis 17(increased to 18 at lvl 8) cha 8

Feats (2 flaws)
-Improved Sigil Krau (allows early entry into Mystic Theruge)
-Cloudy Conjuration
-Augment Summoning
-Minor Shapeshift
-Summon Elemental
-Beckon the Frozen
-???

I need some general feedback plus some advice on what magic items would help me and what I should get with my last feat?

I hope I'm posting this in the right place

[Malachei]

This looks good.

I absolutely agree with your stat distribution.

Personally I'd go generalist over focused specialist, but each to his own. If you go conjurer, consider taking the Abrupt Jaunt ACF. It is outstanding (some ban it, though). What are your prohibited schools?

Mystic Theurge of course is a suboptimal build, but if you are playing in a small party and have to fill both roles, you might have little choice.

Are you sure you want to focus on summoning so much, especially with the feats? I agree that Minor Shapeshift can be a lifesaver, but I'd invest more in Metamagic feats, and are you sure you will not create items?

Whether Improved Sigil (Krau) allows for early entry is debatable, but of course your DM has the final word on this. If you want early entry, Precocious Apprentice may be the cleaner route. Both ways are debatable, because the requirements for Mystic Theurge can be understood as meaning plural ("Spells: Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells.") But that is of course your DM's decision, and if your gaming group likes early entry, that is perfectly fine.

I'm not sure why you need Beckon the Frozen. Is there some other objective you have with it. Do you think it is worth it on its own? It also requires Spell Focus (Conj.).

Note that many Metamagic feats have no requirements. Plan out your feats until level 20 and then reverse engineer. You may end up taking Quicken Spell early.

[greenpotato]

If you go conjurer, consider taking the Abrupt Jaunt ACF. It is outstanding (some ban it, though). What are your prohibited schools?

I personally feel abrupt jaunt is too powerful and unbalance.
I banned necromancy, evocation and enchantment



Mystic Theurge of course is a suboptimal build, but if you are playing in a small party and have to fill both roles, you might have little choice.

Mystic theruge as an illumian basically lets me drop 1 level of wizard(but not caster level) to pick up 8 levels of cleric spellcasting, gives alot more versatility without sacrifising much



Are you sure you want to focus on summoning so much?

Yeah, I do.



and are you sure you will not create items?

Positive, there is close to zero downtime in this campaign.



I'm not sure why you need Beckon the Frozen. Is there some other objective you have with it. Do you think it is worth it on its own? It also requires Spell Focus (Conj.).

I was just looking for more feats to buff summoning, but now that you point out that it requires spell focus, I will drop it.
That means I have to pick two now :(

What would be two metamagic feats that people would reccomend?
(This is my first time playing a wizard at anything other than level 1 so metamagic is something I've never used)

[Malachei]

I personally feel abrupt jaunt is too powerful and unbalance.

I don't like Abrupt Jaunt too much. In an optimized game, it works fine, but otherwise, other players (or, worse, the DM) may feel you're over-protected.


I banned necromancy, evocation and enchantment

As a MT, you have a lot of spells. Do you really need to go focused specialist? You lose a lot of versatility. Personally, I'd almost never ban Evocation, unless for pure roleplaying reasons. It is one of the most undervalued schools. I agree with banning Necromancy. Enchantment: If you are fighting a lot of high-level NPC, yes. But consider that Will is a hard save, and many monsters will not have access to Mind Blank.


What would be two metamagic feats that people would reccomend?

Quicken Spell, absolutely. Empower Spell, perhaps, or Extend Spell (especially if you want to Persist, later). Twin Spell might be interesting, and perhaps Chain Spell for buffing. There are many others, it really depends on what your favorite spells will be. If you expect to have a lot of ethereal issues, then Transdimensional Spell might even be worth it.


(This is my first time playing a wizard at anything other than level 1 so metamagic is something I've never used)

Welcome to a wonderful class.

[Ranting Fool]

. Personally, I'd almost never ban Evocation, unless for pure roleplaying reasons. It is one of the most undervalued schools.


I'm currently running an NPC Necromancer, to help make up party numbers/useful plot device, who can't use Evocation or conjurering purely because those are the two most common used spells in my games (low level ones anyway) from both player and DM (Me) history and I wanted to try and use a different spell selection.

Some spells/schools just are better. Though it's nice to mix things up a bit if you're not aiming for max Opt campaign :smallbiggrin:

[Spuddles]

As a MT, you have a lot of spells. Do you really need to go focused specialist? You lose a lot of versatility. Personally, I'd almost never ban Evocation, unless for pure roleplaying reasons. It is one of the most undervalued schools. I agree with banning Necromancy. Enchantment: If you are fighting a lot of high-level NPC, yes. But consider that Will is a hard save, and many monsters will not have access to Mind Blank.

I think focused specialist is actually better when multiclassing, as your other half can cover what you lack. Do agree with you on banned schools, however.

Abjuration, when you've got cleric casting, can easily be dropped. Just make sure to pick up practiced spellcaster and/or the inquisition domain. Gust of Wind and Wind Wall are like the two best spells in Evocation given how nasty Solid Fog, Freezing Fog, or Cloudkill can be.

[Ranting Fool]

Do agree with you on banned schools, however.


So do I, though I do have a soft spot for Circle of Death necro spell... only good a taking out a large group of much lower level mooks... Still very fun though. :smallbiggrin:

[Malachei]

So do I, though I do have a soft spot for Circle of Death necro spell... only good a taking out a large group of much lower level mooks... Still very fun though. :smallbiggrin:

My soft spots in necromancy would be for horrid wilting and enervation.

I tend to agree on abjuration, But losing maw of chaos hurts.

The best spell in evocation, IMO clearly is invoke magic. Contingency is important, as well.

[Jandrem]

Okay, I'll admit to my ignorance; how exactly does being an Illumian allow you to go into Mystic Theurge so early?

[Malachei]

Okay, I'll admit to my ignorance; how exactly does being an Illumian allow you to go into Mystic Theurge so early?

Early access to a higher spell level through the Improved Sigil (Krau) feat. It is debatable, IMO, but a DM call.

[Jandrem]

Early access to a higher spell level through the Improved Sigil (Krau) feat. It is debatable, IMO, but a DM call.

That's a start, but even then that's not enough to go MT with only 1 wizard level and 2 cleric levels. Are you thinking the Krau sigil ability itself?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding it, but I always assumed the increase in caster level was just for spell effects and such, and not meaning actual increase in level.

I dunno, I read somewhere, can't remember where, that they only thing an increase in caster level like this does is increase caster level for spell effects, such as Cure Light Wounds being 1d8 + caster level(max 5)?

[Malachei]

That's a start, but even then that's not enough to go MT with only 1 wizard level and 2 cleric levels. Are you thinking the Krau sigil ability itself?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding it, but I always assumed the increase in caster level was just for spell effects and such, and not meaning actual increase in level.

I dunno, I read somewhere, can't remember where, that they only thing an increase in caster level like this does is increase caster level for spell effects, such as Cure Light Wounds being 1d8 + caster level(max 5)?

The Krau Sigil increases caster level (not for spells per day, of course, but for caster level). The feat increases effective spell level, as per heighten spell, with no change to the spell's actual spell slot.

I am probably not the right person to discuss this with, because I (mostly) disallow early entry methods through feats etc. (at least one notable exception being Improved Binding, which I find really unambiguous).

You'll find people here who will argue that is is perfectly legal by RAW. You'll find people who admit that it may be legal by RAW but should not be allowed in an actual game, and you'll find people arguing that it is not legal by RAW. Finally, others may say there are more elegant methods to achieve the same result.

You'll easily find discussions on these and other early entry methods with your favorite search engine.

Most importantly, is of course what matches your preferred game style. If the group and the DM is happy, and the game is working, everything is fine.

[Jandrem]

Thank you. I only ask because I'm a big fan of Illumians and Mystic Theurges, and this early entry never occurred to me. In my opinion, it just doesn't seem legit. Caster level and Spellcaster level are two different things, but the dev's never bothered to keep them very separate in print and it does get confusing.

That said MT is still a sub-optimal build, so I wouldn't be too worried about it being OP, just seems like an oddball shortcut to an otherwise fairly straight-forward entry prerequisite.

Again, just opinion. If some groups see no trouble with it, then it's not my place to say otherwise. Thank you for the quick responses!

[Malachei]

Thank you. I only ask because I'm a big fan of Illumians

I enjoy them a lot and think they make great Truenamers.


That said MT is still a sub-optimal build, so I wouldn't be too worried about it being OP, just seems like an oddball shortcut to an otherwise fairly straight-forward entry prerequisite.

Indeed. You could argue that MT are so weak that early entry helps to balance them, if you are playing with other full casters. :smallwink:


Again, just opinion. If some groups see no trouble with it, then it's not my place to say otherwise. Thank you for the quick responses!

It is all about opinions here. Mine is as good as yours. And you're welcome.

[Urpriest]

Thank you. I only ask because I'm a big fan of Illumians and Mystic Theurges, and this early entry never occurred to me. In my opinion, it just doesn't seem legit. Caster level and Spellcaster level are two different things, but the dev's never bothered to keep them very separate in print and it does get confusing.

That said MT is still a sub-optimal build, so I wouldn't be too worried about it being OP, just seems like an oddball shortcut to an otherwise fairly straight-forward entry prerequisite.

Again, just opinion. If some groups see no trouble with it, then it's not my place to say otherwise. Thank you for the quick responses!

It's not about caster level, read the above post. In more detail: Improved Sigil (Krau) lets you Heighten a few spells for free every day. Heighten makes the spell count as a higher spell level. It has nothing to do with caster level.

[FMArthur]

Have you considered using Archivist instead of Cleric? It's an Intelligence-based divine caster that casts from all divine spellcasting lists, which includes Cleric and domains. It's popular as a base class to Theurge with, since you don't need to focus on two casting stats.

Alternatively, if you plan on only using Wizard spells for offense, you might be better off just leaving Wisdom at 16 because getting a bigger stat than is required to cast your highest-level Cleric spells wouldn't offer much benefit in that case.

[Brock Samson]

Please remember that when people say "Mystic Theurge is suboptimal" - what they mean is it's not THE most optimized you can make your character. With this early entry you're basically blending two Tier 1's and only losing a single wizard level in the process. You'll have a solution to basically EVERYTHING on top of that. If you want to make your character powerful, the sky is the limit, so understand that. Unless you're playing with a bunch of Incantatrixes and Cheaters of Mystra you'll be quite powerful in your own right.

[Snowbluff]

Please remember that when people say "Mystic Theurge is suboptimal" - what they mean is it's not THE most optimized you can make your character. With this early entry you're basically blending two Tier 1's and only losing a single wizard level in the process. You'll have a solution to basically EVERYTHING on top of that. If you want to make your character powerful, the sky is the limit, so understand that. Unless you're playing with a bunch of Incantatrixes and Cheaters of Mystra you'll be quite powerful in your own right.

It's not just suboptimal. It's subsuboptimal, since their is an insanely better option. Theurging is fine with early entry cheese, but not having class features kinda 8ones you. At the end you have to fill in some levels get 2 sets of 9ths.

Arcane Heirophant is a lot better. Fill in the end/8eginning (Depending if you're 8amboo Spiritfolk or just really smart) with Mystic Theurge.

Even then you suck. Why? Frakking action economy. You will never be anything other than a gimpy Wizard if you don't spend all of the damn spell slots. My solution? Three words, mon ami: Swift action Spells. The Wizard List is full of them. Learn everyone, and prepare a whole bunch on a regular basis.

As for the Illumian. I don't like it. 8eing a certain species for early entry is silly when being a Human with a separate cheese that can be retrained, like Sanctum Spell, rather than sitting with that silly sigil. Then again, I don't know much about them in the first place, so 8luh.

One more thing. If you're allowed Dragon Material, take 3 levels of a Specialist Wizard with the Theurgic Specialist feat with net you some CL of awesome.

Focus Specialized Wizard should be considered as well, since the gaps in your spellcasting can be covered by your other class.

[Brock Samson]

Subsuboptimal? I'm sorry, do you really think he's going to worse than a rogue/fighter/ranger/paladin/barbarian/warlock/etc....

No. Unless he's playing with extremely high-powered PCs, he's going to do great. Aren't wizards supposed to be able to take on challenges severeal CRs above what the DMG suggests? So you're telling me that a lack of one wizard level and possibly a couple feats suddenly makes this WIZARD WITH CLERIC POWERS subsuboptimal? I call shenanigans!

[Agent 451]

8ones, 8eginning, 8amboo, bunch, 8eing...

Ummm, is your "b" key broke? Or are you just trying to be 133t15t (and if so, you missed some)? :smallbiggrin:

[Urpriest]

Ummm, is your "b" key broke? Or are you just trying to be 133t15t (and if so, you missed some)? :smallbiggrin:

Snowbluff is just Vriska for some unfathomable reason. Rather like how PlzBreakMyCampAn never finishes his posts. Of course, generally getting away with such an obnoxious typing quirk requires a certain reputa

[Rubik]

Snowbluff is just Vriska for some unfathomable reason. Rather like how PlzBreakMyCampAn never finishes his posts. Of course, generally getting away with such an obnoxious typing quirk requires a certain reputaYou're just evil.

Fitting, given your name.

[Agent 451]

Well played, sir!

[Snowbluff]

Subsuboptimal? I'm sorry, do you really think he's going to worse than a rogue/fighter/ranger/paladin/barbarian/warlock/etc....

No. Unless he's playing with extremely high-powered PCs, he's going to do great. Aren't wizards supposed to be able to take on challenges severeal CRs above what the DMG suggests? So you're telling me that a lack of one wizard level and possibly a couple feats suddenly makes this WIZARD WITH CLERIC POWERS subsuboptimal? I call shenanigans!

Optimization is relative to other options. If MT is su8optimal, it's one level lower than an already su8optimal option...


Snowbluff is just Vriska for some unfathomable reason. Rather like how PlzBreakMyCampAn never finishes his posts. Of course, generally getting away with such an obnoxious typing quirk requires a certain reputa

Reminding myself not to 8all-8ust anyone is worth it. Trust me on this.

[Rubik]

Optimization is relative to other options. If MT is sueightoptimal, it's one level lower than an already sueightoptimal option...

Reminding myself not to eightall-eightust anyone is worth it. Trust me on this.Your post makes no sense.

[Snowbluff]

Your post makes no sense.

Lol, etc. Can we have this topic rerailed or you that disinterested in helping the OP? :smallconfused:

My vote is still do away with Illumian. Human is 8etter if you are allow retraining.

As for MT, Legacy Champ or Uncanny Trickster can give more CL, but at an expense. This is why I favor 8am8oo dude (assuming your DM allows it for the prereqs) Cleric/Wizard with Arcane Heirophant in conjunction with MT, since you can bring your spell slots up to that of both 18 and 19 level casters.

[gorfnab]

Consider finishing your build with Malconvoker (CS) if you go past level 10 anyways.

[greenpotato]

Wow these forums move quick..

I went with Empower Spell and Metamagic School focus.

For the guy Suggesting to go Human instead of Illumian I want to point out that being Illumian not only allows early entry into the class (In My Opinion) it also grants another couple of nifty benefits that outweigh the bonus feat a human would get;
-I can leave a spell slot blank to increase all DCs of spells of that level by 1, across both classes
-Increases caster level by 2 for each class giving me caster level of 10 for both wizard and cleric spells
-+2 to all Int checks and Int based skill checks, I think this outweighs the human +1 skill per level.

Plus I don't have the huge aversion that some people do to Illumian, I don't mind the sigils around the head and I think if you read their fluff there is no better race thematically to play a Mystic Theruge, I'd say an Archivist / Wizard / MysticTheruge is about as Illumian as you can get.