TOB refresh mechanics

[weenie]

All TOB classes have different refresh mechanics, and that makes them feel and act more diverse, but I was thinking about running a module for some players that are pretty new to the game and was wondering if it would be a big deal if I changed the recovery method for all classes to that of the Warblade?

[Malachei]

All TOB classes have different refresh mechanics, and that makes them feel and act more diverse, but I was thinking about running a module for some players that are pretty new to the game and was wondering if it would be a big deal if I changed the recovery method for all classes to that of the Warblade?

Obviously, you want to have fun and not make it complicated for new players. In this situation, I'd say balance is not the most important aspect, but ease-of-use, and I think this is a good idea. I would say that this can work fine, especially if you'd reduce the maneuvers readied for the Crusader and the Swordsage somewhat.

[Answerer]

I don't think it's necessary, particularly if you print out the Maneuver Cards for a Crusader. In fact, in a lot of ways, I consider the Crusader to be the ultimate newbie-friendly class: with only 3 disciplines to choose 5 starting maneuvers from, you only miss out on one (and since Devoted Spirit and Stone Dragon each have a maneuver that does almost exactly the same thing as the other...), so they aren't overwhelmed with first-level choices, plus during battle you just use the cards you draw. And there's the nice advantage that all of the Adepts are hard to screw up.

Anyway, Swordsage maneuvers readied + Warblade recovery would make it hands-down the best of the adepts. Not sure if that's what you want.

Personally, I'd say it's probably safe to just use the three as they are.

[Big Fau]

The differences in recover mechanics make each of the martial adept classes play differently. The only recovery mechanic I would change would be the Swordsage's, and change it to a diminishing returns-style mechanic. Something like this:

"You can recover an expended maneuver by using a standard action to quickly meditate. Doing this does not provoke attacks of opportunity. If you complete your meditation you may recover up to X expended maneuvers, where X is 1/2 of your expended maneuvers, rounded up. You choose which maneuvers are recovered and which remain expended. Any maneuver recovered in this way is once again readied and can be used again during this encounter. If you use this ability more than once per encounter the number of maneuvers recovered by this ability decreases. Each time beyond the first reduces the maneuvers recovered by 50% rounded up (so the second recovery would only recover 1/4 of your expended maneuvers, the third would recover 1/8, and so forth). Regardless of how many times you use this ability you always recover a minimum of 1 maneuver each time.

For example, a 5th level Swordsage who has initiated 4 maneuvers this encounter may use this ability to recover 2 of them. Later on, if he chooses to recover his expended maneuvers again, he may only recover 1 of them. For the rest of the encounter he is unable to recover more than 1 maneuver using this ability."

[ScrambledBrains]

The differences in recover mechanics make each of the martial adept classes play differently. The only recovery mechanic I would change would be the Swordsage's, and change it to a diminishing returns-style mechanic. Something like this:

"You can recover an expended maneuver by using a standard action to quickly meditate. Doing this does not provoke attacks of opportunity. If you complete your meditation you may recover up to X expended maneuvers, where X is 1/2 of your expended maneuvers, rounded up. You choose which maneuvers are recovered and which remain expended. Any maneuver recovered in this way is once again readied and can be used again during this encounter. If you use this ability more than once per encounter the number of maneuvers recovered by this ability decreases. Each time beyond the first reduces the maneuvers recovered by 50% rounded up (so the second recovery would only recover 1/4 of your expended maneuvers, the third would recover 1/8, and so forth). Regardless of how many times you use this ability you always recover a minimum of 1 maneuver each time.

For example, a 5th level Swordsage who has initiated 4 maneuvers this encounter may use this ability to recover 2 of them. Later on, if he chooses to recover his expended maneuvers again, he may only recover 1 of them. For the rest of the encounter he is unable to recover more than 1 maneuver using this ability."

:smallannoyed: Why are you attempting to gimp the poor Swordsages, who need I remind you rely on their manuevers more than either of the two other sublime classes?

[Righteous Doggy]

I should throw out there, that the adaptive style feat does in fact change recovery a bit. When you change maneuvers as a full round action with this feat, you also refresh them. Its almost a feat tax for swordsage.
I see no problem in what you are doing, go ahead! its not that much different from the adaptive style. In both cases you can't move and are limited to mostly wasting the round.(although I can't speak for crusader, I've never seen one in action)

[Big Fau]

:smallannoyed: Why are you attempting to gimp the poor Swordsages, who need I remind you rely on their manuevers more than either of the two other sublime classes?

...What? How is that version worse than the basic Swordsage recovery (barring Adaptive Style)?

Seriously, I do not understand how the one I made up off the top of my head is inferior to one that takes a full round action and only recovers a single maneuver each time.

[ScrambledBrains]

...What? How is that version worse than the basic Swordsage recovery (barring Adaptive Style)?

Seriously, I do not understand how the one I made up off the top of my head is inferior to one that takes a full round action and only recovers a single maneuver each time.

Compared to that horrible one, yours is fine...but Adaptive Style is a feat tax for a reason, and compared to that one, yours is sub-par. Besides, the Swordsage is already the worst of the sublime classes at longer fights(Due to lower health and such), and your mechanic merely makes that problem worse.

[Righteous Doggy]

Why do swordsages need a feat tax, aren't they already feat starved?:smallconfused:

[Big Fau]

Why do swordsages need a feat tax, aren't they already feat starved?:smallconfused:

As much as most other noncasters are, yeah.


Compared to that horrible one, yours is fine...but Adaptive Style is a feat tax for a reason, and compared to that one, yours is sub-par. Besides, the Swordsage is already the worst of the sublime classes at longer fights(Due to lower health and such), and your mechanic merely makes that problem worse.

...The one I wrote up wasn't intended to replace Adaptive Style, it was intended to replace the Swordsage's basic recovery mechanic. Why are you comparing it to Adaptive Style?

[ScrambledBrains]

...The one I wrote up wasn't intended to replace Adaptive Style, it was intended to replace the Swordsage's basic recovery mechanic. Why are you comparing it to Adaptive Style?

Oh. In that case, I apologize. :smallredface: I just assume most Swordsages will take Adaptive Style, so generally that's what I compare to.

[Palanan]

On the OP's question, I would offer a strong vote in support of his suggestion.

When I first looked at ToB, I tried running a low-level crusader, and was hopelessly confused by the recovery mechanic...enough that I abandoned the character and swore off ToB altogether. Only very recently, thanks to a suggestion from JadePhoenix, did I look at the warblade: and lo and behold, it actually makes sense.

So. For new players, I would definitely recommend changing the recovery mechanic. It could make a world of difference to their gaming experience.

[Answerer]

When I first looked at ToB, I tried running a low-level crusader, and was hopelessly confused by the recovery mechanic...
Tome of Battle neglects to mention how you're supposed to play the recovery mechanic: you're supposed to have a deck of cards representing the maneuvers you have readied, and draw those cards each turn as they become "Granted". When your deck is empty, shuffle all of your cards and draw again.

If you do it that way, the Crusader's is the easiest one to keep track of, methinks.

[AslanCross]

My thoughts on the matter:

1. In lower-level games (and sometimes, in higher-level games), you won't even need to refresh. A party will almost certainly win combat before anyone runs out.

2. Crusader is confusing if it is not represented by cards, but it's pretty straightforward if you print stuff out. The maneuver cards in the ToB web enhancement are great for this.

3. Swordsage is the least likely to need to refresh due to the large amount of maneuvers available.

4. Warblade will most likely need to refresh if they use one maneuver every round, but as you said, they have the easiest refresh method.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Answerer
Tome of Battle neglects to mention how you're supposed to play the recovery mechanic: you're supposed to have a deck of cards representing the maneuvers you have readied, and draw those cards each turn as they become "Granted". When your deck is empty, shuffle all of your cards and draw again.

Yeah, ToB neglects to clarify a lot of things. I wish I'd had the above quote when I first looked at it.

When I tried the crusader, I struggled with the recovery mechanic, then found the maneuver cards on the WotC website and printed them out...and still struggled, and then decided that it wasn't worth the frustration. The whole class just did not make sense to me.

For a seasoned player who's learned the ins and outs of all three martial adepts, the crusader is probably a lot easier to handle. For this particular beginner...urf. Make mine warblade, at least for now.
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[Person_Man]

A newbie mechanic that I often use for any Tier 3 or higher class: You can use any maneuver, power, spell, etc, as often as you like. But each time you use in an encounter it beyond the first, all numerical values (to-hit, damage, saves, ac, etc) associated with it are decreased by -2, with cumulative penalties.

For example, the first time you use Fireball, it's normal. The second time you use it, your damage roll is at -2 and the Save DC is at -2. The third time you use it, they're at -4. And so on. Works fairly well in most circumstances.

[Matticussama]

Tome of Battle neglects to mention how you're supposed to play the recovery mechanic: you're supposed to have a deck of cards representing the maneuvers you have readied, and draw those cards each turn as they become "Granted". When your deck is empty, shuffle all of your cards and draw again.

If you do it that way, the Crusader's is the easiest one to keep track of, methinks.

I think that way of playing it is a little bit bland. In my games, we've always played up the divinely-influenced aspect of the Crusader and have had the DM (representing the Crusader's deity) pick them based on what the deity wants to grant their servant. This way it is still random in the sense that the player doesn't get to choose, while playing up the RP aspect some more. However, we also play in the Forgotten Realms where the deities are extremely active in the day-to-day affairs of the world. It might not work as well in other systems where deities are less active, but to me the more active the deities are in a world the more interesting that world tends to be.

[Palanan]

That does sound interesting...and since I'm running a game in the Realms, could be appropriate.

Does your DM choose new maneuvers each round, or after each set of maneuvers has been exhausted? Still not quite sure how the recovery actually works in your version. Is there a "breather round," a la warblade, or is the crusader given a new maneuver each consecutive round for as long as he needs one?