Synthesist Summoner vs. "Normal" Summoner [PF]

[Tokuhara]

This is a good question that has bugged me.

In a straight one-on-one brawl, who is the more Optimal?

I'm talking not in terms of Batman-ization, but more of 90% of the encounters it can handle basically by itself.

Let's say the two builds are min-maxed with optimal feat, race, and synergy archetypes against a combat encounter that is "average" for a solo 20th level optimized campaign.


And a second small question:

I understand that Synthesist doesn't like Archetype company, but could, perhaps with DM allowance, First Worlder (Summoner Archetype that makes the Eidolon Fey instead of Outsider) work, in the sense that Synthesist "Technically" doesn't remove your Eidolon, but instead shuffles class features.

The reason I ask is entirely for fluff-reasons: The summoner in question was raised by a druidic order, and never grasped the wildshape or casting, but instead learned a modified art of summoning and met a Fey breed of Eidolon who chose to bind itself to him instead of simply being at his beck and call. I know it is "unoptimized," but flavor-wise, it is more fun.

[grarrrg]

It's a moot point, at level 20 'normal' gets Twin Eidolon, which basically makes the Summoner a Synthesist while keeping his Eidolon.

At level 16 Synthesist gets Split Forms, which separates you into Eidolon, and you-dolon.

Synthesist gets to 'double down' earlier, but can only do it for level=rounds.
'Normal' does it later, but can do it for level=minutes.

Either way, there are 2 of each Eidolon running around, one of each pair can cast spells.

Unhelpful post is unhelpful!

[Tokuhara]

It's a moot point, at level 20 'normal' gets Twin Eidolon, which basically makes the Summoner a Synthesist while keeping his Eidolon.

At level 16 Synthesist gets Split Forms, which separates you into Eidolon, and you-dolon.

Synthesist gets to 'double down' earlier, but can only do it for level=rounds.
'Normal' does it later, but can do it for level=minutes.

Either way, there are 2 of each Eidolon running around, one of each pair can cast spells.

Unhelpful post is unhelpful!

Ok. Slightly more specific:

Let's say 1-20, one encounter per level, and each fight metaphorically levels you up. Which version would survive better long-term?

[jaybird]

Action advantage goes to the vanilla Summoner, because he can handle up to three threats at a time (Quicken SoS + Standard SoS + Eidolon full attack), while the Synthesist can only handle two (Quicken SoS + Standard SoS OR Eidolon full attack).

IMO Synthesist is closer to Magus in its role as a melee character who doesn't need separate buffing, while vanilla Summoner is more of a traditional arcanist, admittedly only a 2/3 one.

[Tokuhara]

Action advantage goes to the vanilla Summoner, because he can handle up to three threats at a time (Quicken SoS + Standard SoS + Eidolon full attack), while the Synthesist can only handle two (Quicken SoS + Standard SoS OR Eidolon full attack).

IMO Synthesist is closer to Magus in its role as a melee character who doesn't need separate buffing, while vanilla Summoner is more of a traditional arcanist, admittedly only a 2/3 one.

Ok. So at 1 optimized encounter/level with an optimal build, Synthesist vs. Non-Synthesist, who survives longer?

[RndmNumGen]

Vanilla Summoner is stronger, for several reasons:


Action Economy
Positioning
Feat Advantage


As already mentioned, Action Economy is the big one. A Synthesist can cast, or he can attack. A Summoner can cast while his Eidolon attacks. The difference is pretty obvious.

Positioning is another big one, which while less important in combat, does matter in terms of survivability. If a combat goes sour, a Summoner on the back lines can leave his Eidolon to hold off the enemies while he escapes. A Synthesist IS his Eidolon, so if a combat goes sour he has to find a way to get away without any sort of meatshield.

Then there is the feat advantage. A Synthesist's Eidolon doesn't get it's own feats(or skills, for that matter). That means the Synthesist needs to spend his own feats to enhance his Eidolon's combat power. This means a vanilla Summoner can use his feats on things like Augment Summoning, Metamagic Feats, Item Creation Feats or whatever else he wants.

While the vanilla Summoner is stronger, the Synthesist has some advantages. Primarily, he doesn't need to worry about physical stats as much, and can usually dump STR and DEX(I would not dump CON unless you're doing it for flavor reasons, or else you run into the ''Barbarian Problem'' - once you're down, you're dead).

Another small advantage the Synthesist has is he cannot be targeted separately from his Eidolon, so the "Kill the Mage" strategy doesn't apply. Also, if the Synthesist multiclasses, he still gets to use all other class abilities or bonus feats as his Eidolon, which can be useful.

TL;DR: Vanilla Summoner is stronger, would survive longer, and is more versatile, though Synthesist does have some unique advantages.

[Tokuhara]

Ok. So Synthesist is a beatstick with spells and a Summoner is a caster with friends?

Personally, I'd still choose the Synthesist, since odds are he would be a better Damage Sponge overall, similar to an Alchemist who focuses on Mutagens, and can totemist out with lots of damage overall.

Now, second question:

How would an "ideal" optimized synthesist with the following restrictions be made?:

Race: Half-Elf (Ancestral Arms, Arcane Training)
Trait: Two-World Magic (Witch)
Fluff: Raised in the wilds by a coven of witches, but accidentally summoned an eidolon who fused with him, changing his alignment with a "burst of clarity," revealing that the witches were demonologists who wanted to destroy the world. Caring about the animals, he butchered them all and ran.
"Model:" Angelic/Celestial, perhaps a being of idealized/polarized pure good. Don't want the casting, but could go with a more melee platform.

Looking for more of a Dervish from Guild Wars over Iron Man

And any ideas guys?

[jaybird]

Ok. So at 1 optimized encounter/level with an optimal build, Synthesist vs. Non-Synthesist, who survives longer?

Vanilla Summoner wins any soloing contest.

[RndmNumGen]

Now, second question:

How would an "ideal" optimized synthesist with the following restrictions be made?:

Race: Half-Elf (Ancestral Arms, Arcane Training)
Trait: Two-World Magic (Witch)
Fluff: Raised in the wilds by a coven of witches, but accidentally summoned an eidolon who fused with him, changing his alignment with a "burst of clarity," revealing that the witches were demonologists who wanted to destroy the world. Caring about the animals, he butchered them all and ran.
"Model:" Angelic/Celestial, perhaps a being of idealized/polarized pure good. Don't want the casting, but could go with a more melee platform.

Looking for more of a Dervish from Guild Wars over Iron Man

And any ideas guys?
Summoners are so diverse that having one true ideal build for them is nigh impossible. A Synthesist can be built to do anything a Fighter could, and more. Tripper? 2H Fighter? TWF? Ranged Combatant? Something else? For starters, you should decide what you want to do, and from there your Eidolon's base form.

A Quadruped would be good for Pounce if you wanted to get a ton of attacks in, while Bipeds have higher strength and start with two arms. Bipeds also gain reach if you ever take the Large evolution or cast Enlarge Person on yourself, while Quads move faster.

[Tokuhara]

Summoners are so diverse that having one true ideal build for them is nigh impossible. A Synthesist can be built to do anything a Fighter could, and more. Tripper? 2H Fighter? TWF? Ranged Combatant? Something else? For starters, you should decide what you want to do, and from there your Eidolon's base form.

A Quadruped would be good for Pounce if you wanted to get a ton of attacks in, while Bipeds have higher strength and start with two arms. Bipeds also gain reach if you ever take the Large evolution or cast Enlarge Person on yourself, while Quads move faster.

Edit: Less of a pain, and slightly less points to spend

This effect: http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/daily/ftl/ftl94_boar.jpg

On a body like this: http://images.wikia.com/godofwar/images/6/61/Colossus_complete.jpg

that can fly without wings, has an oddball and optimizes tanking and damage

[grarrrg]

For a serious answer to your questions, the Synthesist would have an easier time at lower levels, all the power of a level 1 Eidolon, w/ the addition of the Summoner's HP on top makes it more resiliant. Whereas the 'normal' Eidolon has much lower hp > easier to take out, and the Summoner has much weaker defenses > easier take out + taking the Eidolon with it.
Once the Spell levels/power reaches a decent level, then 'normal' all the way (although there are still some fun tricks to pull with Synthesist, but those mostly need multiclassing).


Race: Half-Elf (Ancestral Arms, Arcane Training)
Trait: Two-World Magic (Witch)
Fluff: Raised in the wilds by a coven of witches, but accidentally summoned an eidolon who fused with him, changing his alignment with a "burst of clarity," revealing that the witches were demonologists who wanted to destroy the world. Caring about the animals, he butchered them all and ran.
"Model:" Angelic/Celestial, perhaps a being of idealized/polarized pure good. Don't want the casting, but could go with a more melee platform.

Well Half-Elf is the optimal choice, Arcane Training could easily be pulled to better enable multiclass/dips (if needed/wanted).
Biped Eidolon (obviously)
You can't have Flight until level 5, until then Wings are just for show, and/or spend 1 point on the Skilled>Acrobatics evolution (for jumping).

Depending on how close you want it to match the first picture, either Unnatural Aura (1 point, mostly flavor), or Undead Appearance (2 points).

For a level 1 start, I'd say just go with Ability Increase (Str, or Dex), and Unnatural Aura.

Also, as we sticking with just 1 weapon? What Natural Attacks would be allowable?
Wing Buffet is easy to apply once you get Wings, they're weak, but if you have Wings (not 'magical' flight) already, then it's a quick 1 Evo-point for 2 attacks.
Claws can be put on the Legs (there is nothing saying the 'default' claws can't be put on the legs instead of the hands), and depending on exactly what you envision, I can see a Gore/Bite attack fitting in as well.

[Tokuhara]

For a serious answer to your questions, the Synthesist would have an easier time at lower levels, all the power of a level 1 Eidolon, w/ the addition of the Summoner's HP on top makes it more resiliant. Whereas the 'normal' Eidolon has much lower hp > easier to take out, and the Summoner has much weaker defenses > easier take out + taking the Eidolon with it.
Once the Spell levels/power reaches a decent level, then 'normal' all the way (although there are still some fun tricks to pull with Synthesist, but those mostly need multiclassing).



Well Half-Elf is the optimal choice, Arcane Training could easily be pulled to better enable multiclass/dips (if needed/wanted).
Biped Eidolon (obviously)
You can't have Flight until level 5, until then Wings are just for show, and/or spend 1 point on the Skilled>Acrobatics evolution (for jumping).

Depending on how close you want it to match the first picture, either Unnatural Aura (1 point, mostly flavor), or Undead Appearance (2 points).

For a level 1 start, I'd say just go with Ability Increase (Str, or Dex), and Unnatural Aura.

Also, as we sticking with just 1 weapon? What Natural Attacks would be allowable?
Wing Buffet is easy to apply once you get Wings, they're weak, but if you have Wings (not 'magical' flight) already, then it's a quick 1 Evo-point for 2 attacks.
Claws can be put on the Legs (there is nothing saying the 'default' claws can't be put on the legs instead of the hands), and depending on exactly what you envision, I can see a Gore/Bite attack fitting in as well.

For the Arcane Training, I meant the Racial Feature Substitution that swaps Multitalented for a +1 to casting stat for their favored class (Summoner in this case) with items (such as a Mage Armor ring)

Most of these work well with the new concept, but this version has no wings (it is a golden avatar aura with a scrawny Half-Elf inside)

[grarrrg]

For the Arcane Training, I meant the Racial Feature Substitution that swaps Multitalented for a +1 to casting stat for their favored class (Summoner in this case) with items (such as a Mage Armor ring)

Most of these work well with the new concept, but this version has no wings (it is a golden avatar aura with a scrawny Half-Elf inside)

I'm aware what Arcane Training is/does. It's just a very small/niche bonus, and if you wanted to multiclass, i.e. enough levels that a 2nd Favored Class would be worth it, then it is easily done away with.

The rest of my advice mostly depends on how many Natural vs. Manufactured attacks you plan on having/making use of, and if you'd prefer to stay Medium size, or if Large/Huge are options (eventually).
If you'd prefer minimal Natural attacks, then a decent Multi-class dip might be in order.

Once we rule out Flavor incompatibilities, and then Preference incompatibilities, then we'll know what we have to work with better.
For example, your "golden avatar aura" mostly rules out Undead Appearance, but suggests that Incorporeal form may be fitting.
And "angel/demon" offspring-thing rules out Web, but suggests [energy] resist/immunity.

[Mari01]

Then what's the weakness of the synthesist class outside of action economy. Having less options doesn't really say what to do to challenge one. Currently, the fighter in our group is complaining that he is useless next to the synthesist, which is entirely true. The synth has more ac, more hp, hits harder with the eidolon, and picked evolutions that grant reach and can push enemies. His saves are covered by the fused link class feature. I'm at a loss. Anything that challenges him may very well result in a TPK for my group.

[doko239]

Things that screw Synthesists:

Sleep/Unconsciousness effects

Banishment

Antimagic Fields

Reflex-based spells (reflex will typically be their lowest save)

Con damage/drain hits a Synthesist hard, as it affects both their own Con score as well as the Eidolon's, and they lose 2 hp/2 Con while bonded.

Any nasty outsider-only effect will also affect a bonded Synthesist; they are considered both Humanoid and Outsider while bonded.

[Tokuhara]

Heh... Well, that just took my joy for Synthesist and ruined it...

Plan B then...

Will post that later tonite after I fiddle around and try to learn the Words of Power Mechanic.

[grarrrg]

Things that screw Synthesists:

Sleep/Unconsciousness effects

Banishment

Antimagic Fields

Reflex-based spells (reflex will typically be their lowest save)

Con damage/drain hits a Synthesist hard, as it affects both their own Con score as well as the Eidolon's, and they lose 2 hp/2 Con while bonded.

Any nasty outsider-only effect will also affect a bonded Synthesist; they are considered both Humanoid and Outsider while bonded.

Ummm... most of those will screw over most characters.

Sleep/Unconscious/Banish: When next able cast "Summon Eidolon" as a Full-round action. Yes it's a 2nd level spell, and you'll get it at 4th level, but before that point EVERYONE is squishy/vulnerable.
If sleeping and you don't wake up ANY character is easily offed.

Antimagic fields mess up most caster classes anyway, but you're still better off than a Wizard (d8hd+3/4Bab+Light Armor vs. d6hd+1/2Bab+No Armor).

LOTS of classes have poor Ref saves and don't care.

Con damage will mess anyone up quickly. It will just mess Synthesists up slightly faster.

Outsider-related I will give you. No other class/race really has to worry about this.


And don't forget, even without your Eidolon you still have 3+Cha/day uses of Summon Monster #, with faster casting time (Standard) AND 10 TIMES the duration.

[doko239]

Ummm... most of those will screw over most characters.

Sleep/Unconscious/Banish: When next able cast "Summon Eidolon" as a Full-round action. Yes it's a 2nd level spell, and you'll get it at 4th level, but before that point EVERYONE is squishy/vulnerable.
If sleeping and you don't wake up ANY character is easily offed.

If you put the Fighter to sleep, you don't take away half his HP, most of his armor, and the greater part of his class abilities and physical stats until he can stand up and take a full-round action without getting pooched. Sleep hits everyone hard, but it hits Synthesists particularly hard.


Antimagic fields mess up most caster classes anyway, but you're still better off than a Wizard (d8hd+3/4Bab+Light Armor vs. d6hd+1/2Bab+No Armor).

See Sleep above. When a Summoner's Eidolon goes away, he goes from being a frontline fighter to being a bard with subpar physical stats and no performance. Yes he's better off than the wizard, but the point is he's probably on the front line when this happens, and that can make all the difference.


LOTS of classes have poor Ref saves and don't care.

He's asking for options, i'm giving them. Anything that does anything to anyone will probably do it to everyone else :smalltongue:


Con damage will mess anyone up quickly. It will just mess Synthesists up slightly faster.

But a small to moderate amount of Con damage will mess up the Synth hard while leaving the rest of the group comparatively safe.


Outsider-related I will give you. No other class/race really has to worry about this.

I'm not sure if there's much to abuse this with in pure PF, but it's something.:smallbiggrin:



And don't forget, even without your Eidolon you still have 3+Cha/day uses of Summon Monster #, with faster casting time (Standard) AND 10 TIMES the duration.

Summon Monster is not as useful as it seems on paper, since you have to already be without your eidolon for it to work at all, and for a Synth that means being VERY vulnerable, which is what was asked for in the first place.

[Mari01]

Ummm... most of those will screw over most characters.

Sleep/Unconscious/Banish: When next able cast "Summon Eidolon" as a Full-round action. Yes it's a 2nd level spell, and you'll get it at 4th level, but before that point EVERYONE is squishy/vulnerable.
If sleeping and you don't wake up ANY character is easily offed.

Antimagic fields mess up most caster classes anyway, but you're still better off than a Wizard (d8hd+3/4Bab+Light Armor vs. d6hd+1/2Bab+No Armor).

LOTS of classes have poor Ref saves and don't care.

Con damage will mess anyone up quickly. It will just mess Synthesists up slightly faster.

Outsider-related I will give you. No other class/race really has to worry about this.


And don't forget, even without your Eidolon you still have 3+Cha/day uses of Summon Monster #, with faster casting time (Standard) AND 10 TIMES the duration.

There isn't a situation that the synthesist is not doing almost everything. Outside of quick-impact healing (like dropping a CLW to save someone who's bleeding out) I have yet to be able to severely injure the synthesist. The closest challenge was a barbarian who could hit hard enough to laugh at the eidolons temp hp. He sacrificed himself all the way down to 1 hp before the guy went down. Needless to say, the party basically limped away from the first encounter in a dungeon. And that was just against someone who's fighting tactic was hit it until it stop moving.

[JadePhoenix]

As said before, Synthesist makes a good gish and vanilla Summoner makes a good buffer.
I'm fond of Synthesist because of the early access to dimension door, good defenses and because I like gishes. Vanilla Summoner is stronger, though, no questions asked, even at higher levels because when both get the ability to "split" the Summoner has caster feats. So a Summoner 20 vs a Synthesist 20 is basically a caster and a brute versus a gish and a brute.

[Mari01]

As said before, Synthesist makes a good gish and vanilla Summoner makes a good buffer.
I'm fond of Synthesist because of the early access to dimension door, good defenses and because I like gishes. Vanilla Summoner is stronger, though, no questions asked, even at higher levels because when both get the ability to "split" the Summoner has caster feats. So a Summoner 20 vs a Synthesist 20 is basically a caster and a brute versus a gish and a brute.

He's going to call me out when some baddies just have some dismissal abilities. Guess he'll just have to suck it up. Putting him to sleep imo works just as well against the fighter (even more so with his lower saves) since it's stand up, standard action eidolon back) and then right back to normal until post combat.

[Mari01]

Things that screw Synthesists:

Sleep/Unconsciousness effects

Banishment

Antimagic Fields

Reflex-based spells (reflex will typically be their lowest save)

Con damage/drain hits a Synthesist hard, as it affects both their own Con score as well as the Eidolon's, and they lose 2 hp/2 Con while bonded.

Any nasty outsider-only effect will also affect a bonded Synthesist; they are considered both Humanoid and Outsider while bonded.

Is this true? There's a wraith encounter they are going to well...encounter...anyway and if he takes double con drain one touch might severely wound him. Sounds like undead are going to be a major thorn in their side if this is true. Or at least something I can throw at the group where the others can manage.

[doko239]

Is this true? There's a wraith encounter they are going to well...encounter...anyway and if he takes double con drain one touch might severely wound him. Sounds like undead are going to be a major thorn in their side if this is true. Or at least something I can throw at the group where the others can manage.

It is true specifically because of how Synthesist is worded. The Eidolon and the Summoner are "one being" while bonded, and thus the "bonded creature" takes con damage. When the Eidolon is dismissed, the player still has the con damage, because they were still hit by the effect.

Also, since a bonded synthesist gets to "double-dip" his hit points, when his con score drops, the double-dip bites him back. :smallwink: